CDZ To reshore or not to reshore...It's purely a business decision

[320 Years of History]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Increasingly, manufacturers are finding the financial incentives previously driving offshoring are diminishing. The wage differential is rapidly decreasing between developed and developing countries.

For example, China’s wages have increased at a compounded annual growth rate (CAGR) of 17 percent from 2001 to 2013. Likewise, wages in India have increased at an annual rate of 20 percent during the same period. On the other hand, wages in the U.S. grew by only 3 percent. When the decreasing wage differential is combined with the “hidden costs” of offshoring such as duty, freight, packaging, carrying cost of inventory, added supply chain complexity, as well as the potential innovation impact of separating engineering from manufacturing, U.S. manufacturing companies find it increasingly favorable to reshore operations back to America. Proximity between R&D and production functions greatly benefits manufacturing companies through streamlining processes, reducing product development time and cutting intangible costs. Thus, the case is mounting for manufacturers to bring back operations, as well as jobs, to America as long as they can find the workers.

The challenges of reshoring are potentially less obvious, but equally real. Companies that have already reshored have faced hurdles in stabilizing the new workforce, addressing the organizational skills gap, localizing the supply chain, altering the capital to labor ratio, and contemplating product design.

Given almost half of executives would consider reshoring their manufacturing operations back to U.S., demand for skilled workers is likely to further increase. Difficulties in finding the qualified talent may push manufacturers to automate their factories and replace people with machines. However, automation requires highly skilled personnel to operate, though fewer in number. In both cases (i.e., whether companies automate or not), manufacturers require skilled workers in their plants. Therefore, it is in the best interests of manufacturers and government to continue to invest in skills development programs that mitigate this challenging issue.

Source: The skills gap in U.S. manufacturing 2015 and beyond​

If one advocates for public policy aimed at "forcing" companies to reshore their manufacturing operations because one thinks that their doing so will make available the jobs that factory workers in China, Mexico and other places perform, one will be greatly disappointed. The blue text above is why.

I have little doubt that manufacturers will reshore their operations. I am equally certain that absent massive training of the American workforce, their doing so will not result in greater levels of "full" employment in the U.S., that is, underemployment in the sense of folks having to perform jobs that do not pay the wage they want to earn for their labor.

We currently have politicians advocating for tariffs and tax solutions as a way to boost employment. Unless they are also going to commit to using the tariff monies collected to fund massive skills development initiatives, I don't support the idea of tariffs at all. It's well understood that tariffs diminish consumer surplus and increase producer surplus. That's good for producers and bad for consumers and society as a whole.

Impact of Tariffs alone

What good is there to come for under-/unemployed workers when manufacturers/producers return and implement capital rather than labor to produce their goods? None. Workers remain under-/unemployed and prices are higher as a result of the tariff.

 

[PurpleOwl]

nice charts but even if these companies were to "reshore", there jobs would be mostly AUTOMATED, cutting taxes and regulations to compete with people willing to work for 50 cent a day is an over simplified scapegoat, legalizing slavery, or child labor will also "bring back jobs" but they're not reasonable solutions. A corporation is not a charity, if they want to leave and go somewhere else let them. If they're jobs are so important let the government handle it. Rather than licking the shit encrusted bootheels of the wealthy class and lining their pockets with tax payer funds so they provide a service we can do ourselves.

 

[Andylusion]

I always knew that eventually, without any government intervention, the market would begin to equalize. The mythology that all Chinese labor is 9-year-olds being paid in cookies, always was a joke.

As the demand for qualified Chinese labor went up, so would wages. As the supply of unskilled Chinese labor dwindled, the price would go up.

The fundamentals of economics were never suspended in China.

I would however take a slightly different take on the quest for "qualified talent". While I'm sure there is some amount of skill gap... I think a larger problem is the skilled pay gap.

Yes, there are some bleeding edge technology skills, that are hard to come by. Simply because the pace of advancement is so fast, by the time you have millions of programmers proficient in one language, the new one comes up. Python has been around for years, but just in the last 5 had really taken off, and programmers are in high demand. Now Swift Programmers are the highest in demand. And you had Java, and Java Script, and SQL. The point being, that each have taken off in just a few years of each other, and the it takes many more years to train in each. So there is a skill gap of sorts, but I wager that isn't the main issue.

I think the real problem is that people want to get paid like they are 20 years of expertise, when they leave college with a degree.

And unfortunately the entire political system, and the public at large, and especially the left-wing, has given them this unrealistic expectation. Over and over, we have intentionally, or unintentionally, given the impression that a degree is a key to high wages.

The problem is, we didn't put the 'er' on that. A degree is a key to "higher" wages... but it's not a key to "high wages".

People with degrees generally earn more than people without. There is no question in that. But that doesn't mean that having a degree means you'll be banking 6-figures 12-months from your graduation date.

I've actually seen this dozens of times. I worked at one company where a co-worker of mine was going to school while working. He decided to buy a home, and I suggested he wait until he knew how much the company would offer him. He told me when he got his degree, he'd make big bucks. Well he bought the house, got his degree, and they placed him at an entry level engineering position earning about $5,000 more than he was before.

Now.... he was clearly, and obviously making 'higher wages', than those of us without a degree. But he wasn't make 'high wages'. Now he regrets buying the home, and he's struggling a little with the bills. First, don't buy a home before you know how much money you make, but as it relates to this discussion, the problem isn't entirely that there are no people with the skills companies need.

The problem is, there are few people with the skills they need, who are willing to work for the wage the job is worth.

If companies could pay $200,000 for every position, they would have absolutely no problem finding the skills and talent. The problem is, they can't afford to pay that much, and college grads have been convinced they are entitled to a massive pay check just by getting the degree. No matter what they do with the degree.

If you work as an Engineer for Raytheon, you are going to make a much larger salary, than if you are working at Little Debbie snacks. But in both cases, you are going to start out as an entry level engineer, earning an entry engineer wage.

I think that's the massive issue.

As a side note, I want to underscore another statement in the original article about bringing manufacturing jobs back.

"However, automation requires highly skilled personnel to operate, though fewer in number."

That is a gross understatement. I'll give you one single example from Constellation brewery. Constallation sells the Corona, Modelo, and Growlers Cider among many others. Well known brand.

In their newest Lights-out Brewery, they have 70+ laser guided vehicles, that move product around the plant. In order to get the same work down as the laser guided vehicles, they would need roughly 250 forklifts, running 3 shifts, that's 750 forklift drivers

Instead they have 6 employees.

Now I think the same problem exists, as described above. I have no doubt they could find all the forklift drivers they need, if people were willing to work for the wages they could offer, for a forklift driver position.

But since people are not, the cost is prohibitive, and so instead they have 6 people, instead of 750.

This is the reality. These jobs are not coming back. Not unless we drastically reduce the cost of employing labor, and not unless people are willing to work for the wages that these jobs can pay.

Unless that changes, you can bring back all the manufacturing you want... that's fine.... but you are still not getting paid $50,000 a year to drive a forklift. Instead 6 people will push the start button, and automated laser guided vehicles will roll around in the dark.

These are your options. There is no "let's return to the 1950s" option. Not happening.

 

[Andylusion]

nice charts but even if these companies were to "reshore", there jobs would be mostly AUTOMATED, cutting taxes and regulations to compete with people willing to work for 50 cent a day is an over simplified scapegoat, legalizing slavery, or child labor will also "bring back jobs" but they're not reasonable solutions. A corporation is not a charity, if they want to leave and go somewhere else let them. If they're jobs are so important let the government handle it. Rather than licking the shit encrusted bootheels of the wealthy class and lining their pockets with tax payer funds so they provide a service we can do ourselves.

I thought that was what he said.

I'm confused though.... who is licking boots in our country? And what wealthy class has their pockets lined with tax payer funds? Where are these mythical people, and do they have Unicorns as well?

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Efficiency has served us well but cannot solve our MADE IN AMERICA dearth, when it comes to rolling products off the assembly line. It takes word of mouth, a commitment to spending a few quarters more and looking for the label that says MADE IN AMERICA. And dedication too.

 

[PurpleOwl]

nice charts but even if these companies were to "reshore", there jobs would be mostly AUTOMATED, cutting taxes and regulations to compete with people willing to work for 50 cent a day is an over simplified scapegoat, legalizing slavery, or child labor will also "bring back jobs" but they're not reasonable solutions. A corporation is not a charity, if they want to leave and go somewhere else let them. If they're jobs are so important let the government handle it. Rather than licking the shit encrusted bootheels of the wealthy class and lining their pockets with tax payer funds so they provide a service we can do ourselves.

I thought that was what he said.

I'm confused though.... who is licking boots in our country? And what wealthy class has their pockets lined with tax payer funds? Where are these mythical people, and do they have Unicorns as well?

nice charts but even if these companies were to "reshore", there jobs would be mostly AUTOMATED, cutting taxes and regulations to compete with people willing to work for 50 cent a day is an over simplified scapegoat, legalizing slavery, or child labor will also "bring back jobs" but they're not reasonable solutions. A corporation is not a charity, if they want to leave and go somewhere else let them. If they're jobs are so important let the government handle it. Rather than licking the shit encrusted bootheels of the wealthy class and lining their pockets with tax payer funds so they provide a service we can do ourselves.

I thought that was what he said.

I'm confused though.... who is licking boots in our country? And what wealthy class has their pockets lined with tax payer funds? Where are these mythical people, and do they have Unicorns as well?

The people who think you can cut taxes or the minimum wage and that will "encourage" (to put it nicely) CEO's and business owners to hire more employees in America. Rather than just having the government employ them to do the same thing.

here's a list of 27 companies that pay no tax, as if they were a church

27 giant profitable companies paid no taxes

 

[Andylusion]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Efficiency has served us well but cannot solve our MADE IN AMERICA dearth, when it comes to rolling products off the assembly line. It takes word of mouth, a commitment to spending a few quarters more and looking for the label that says MADE IN AMERICA. And dedication too.

Well, that is not going to happen. Sorry, it's not.

Let me give you a quick example from my own life. Actually two examples.

First was my air conditioning in my home. The blower on the HVAC went out. Everything else was fine, blower motor dead.

So I punched in a direct replacement. The direct replacement was $300. I didn't have that kind of money at the time, so 6 months later, when the winter started coming, and I had to get it fixed, I did a broader (not limited to the American companies replacement) search. I found a non-US manufacturer, that had a replacement motor, for $160.

Now which do you think I bought? $300... or $160?

Who in their right mind is going to make that expensive choice? "Yes, I like being poor! I'll buy the exact same product, for double the cost!"

If McDonald's was $10 for a burger, and Wendy's was $4.... who would go to McDonalds?

Similarly, a while back I considered doing this 'buy American' thing, and started looking for American made clothing. What I discovered was that for the same shirt, same pants, same underwear... the price was more than double. A standard dress shirt is $10 imported. Same shirt made in the USA, $40 to $50.

I'm not doing that. Are you crazy?

Basically if Americans spend themselves into poverty, then manufacturing will come back. Great for Unions in manufacturing plants, and the rest of us can die in poverty. Not happening. Sorry bro... not happening.

 

[PurpleOwl]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Efficiency has served us well but cannot solve our MADE IN AMERICA dearth, when it comes to rolling products off the assembly line. It takes word of mouth, a commitment to spending a few quarters more and looking for the label that says MADE IN AMERICA. And dedication too.

Well, that is not going to happen. Sorry, it's not.

Let me give you a quick example from my own life. Actually two examples.

First was my air conditioning in my home. The blower on the HVAC went out. Everything else was fine, blower motor dead.

So I punched in a direct replacement. The direct replacement was $300. I didn't have that kind of money at the time, so 6 months later, when the winter started coming, and I had to get it fixed, I did a broader (not limited to the American companies replacement) search. I found a non-US manufacturer, that had a replacement motor, for $160.

Now which do you think I bought? $300... or $160?

Who in their right mind is going to make that expensive choice? "Yes, I like being poor! I'll buy the exact same product, for double the cost!"

If McDonald's was $10 for a burger, and Wendy's was $4.... who would go to McDonalds?

Similarly, a while back I considered doing this 'buy American' thing, and started looking for American made clothing. What I discovered was that for the same shirt, same pants, same underwear... the price was more than double. A standard dress shirt is $10 imported. Same shirt made in the USA, $40 to $50.

I'm not doing that. Are you crazy?

Basically if Americans spend themselves into poverty, then manufacturing will come back. Great for Unions in manufacturing plants, and the rest of us can die in poverty. Not happening. Sorry bro... not happening.

Why not just have most, if not all "manufacturing jobs" in developing countries?

 

[Andylusion]

nice charts but even if these companies were to "reshore", there jobs would be mostly AUTOMATED, cutting taxes and regulations to compete with people willing to work for 50 cent a day is an over simplified scapegoat, legalizing slavery, or child labor will also "bring back jobs" but they're not reasonable solutions. A corporation is not a charity, if they want to leave and go somewhere else let them. If they're jobs are so important let the government handle it. Rather than licking the shit encrusted bootheels of the wealthy class and lining their pockets with tax payer funds so they provide a service we can do ourselves.

I thought that was what he said.

I'm confused though.... who is licking boots in our country? And what wealthy class has their pockets lined with tax payer funds? Where are these mythical people, and do they have Unicorns as well?

nice charts but even if these companies were to "reshore", there jobs would be mostly AUTOMATED, cutting taxes and regulations to compete with people willing to work for 50 cent a day is an over simplified scapegoat, legalizing slavery, or child labor will also "bring back jobs" but they're not reasonable solutions. A corporation is not a charity, if they want to leave and go somewhere else let them. If they're jobs are so important let the government handle it. Rather than licking the shit encrusted bootheels of the wealthy class and lining their pockets with tax payer funds so they provide a service we can do ourselves.

I thought that was what he said.

I'm confused though.... who is licking boots in our country? And what wealthy class has their pockets lined with tax payer funds? Where are these mythical people, and do they have Unicorns as well?

The people who think you can cut taxes or the minimum wage and that will "encourage" (to put it nicely) CEO's and business owners to hire more employees in America. Rather than just having the government employ them to do the same thing.

here's a list of 27 companies that pay no tax, as if they were a church

27 giant profitable companies paid no taxes

First your claim isn't even true. Second, it is not relevant to the discussion... but I will say this.

They paid no American Corporate income tax, because they off shored their earnings.... to avoid the tax.

Again, this isn't shocking. Do you take every deduction you can to lower your tax bill? I do. My parents do. My friends do. My co-workers do. Everyone does.

Why do you expect corporations to not take deductions, that YOU YOURSELF would take, if you could?

The whole reason companies do this, is because the 35% tax rate is one of the highest in the world, and just as you and I would avoid such a high tax, so do corporations.

As long as you create incentives with high taxes, companies will change how they act in response to those incentives.

But again, this isn't even true.

Companies can avoid the corporate tax on profit. True. They can't avoid the payroll tax on employee wages, at all, or any of the other costs.

The very first company mentioned in your article was Level 3 Communications.
Level 3 Communications, Inc. - Investor Relations - Financial Information - Quarterly Financials

From the investor relations page, on their quarterly report. PDF named 2Q16 Earnings Release. Page 5.

Full year income tax rate, ~30%. In other words, the left-wing article you posted, played you like a mindless lemming, and you ran off the cliff with it.

If you think they lied, put your money where your mouth is, and sue them. Let's see you take them to court for fraud. We both know you can't, because we both know the article lied.

However, none of this is relevant to the discussion anyway.

The reason companies choose automation over human labor, is because the cost of the labor exceeds the massive costs of automation.

Lowering taxes would lower the cost of hiring human labor, and thus would make human capital more cost competitive with automation.

Companies pay taxes on Unemployment compensation. Workers Comp insurance. On medicare and social security. And of course now with Obama care, health insurance mandates.

All of these, plus the endless paperwork at the Local, State, and Federal governments, cost companies hundreds of thousands, and larger ones, millions.

Lowering the costs of doing any, or all, would help make workers more competitive against automation.

Lowering the minimum wage would help in some respects, and not in others. And contrary to moronic belief, lower the minimum wage doesn't result in 50¢ wages. Germany until 2015, didn't have any minimum wage law at all, and contrary to the left-wing myth, only a tiny fraction of the public was under unions.

 

[Andylusion]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Efficiency has served us well but cannot solve our MADE IN AMERICA dearth, when it comes to rolling products off the assembly line. It takes word of mouth, a commitment to spending a few quarters more and looking for the label that says MADE IN AMERICA. And dedication too.

Well, that is not going to happen. Sorry, it's not.

Let me give you a quick example from my own life. Actually two examples.

First was my air conditioning in my home. The blower on the HVAC went out. Everything else was fine, blower motor dead.

So I punched in a direct replacement. The direct replacement was $300. I didn't have that kind of money at the time, so 6 months later, when the winter started coming, and I had to get it fixed, I did a broader (not limited to the American companies replacement) search. I found a non-US manufacturer, that had a replacement motor, for $160.

Now which do you think I bought? $300... or $160?

Who in their right mind is going to make that expensive choice? "Yes, I like being poor! I'll buy the exact same product, for double the cost!"

If McDonald's was $10 for a burger, and Wendy's was $4.... who would go to McDonalds?

Similarly, a while back I considered doing this 'buy American' thing, and started looking for American made clothing. What I discovered was that for the same shirt, same pants, same underwear... the price was more than double. A standard dress shirt is $10 imported. Same shirt made in the USA, $40 to $50.

I'm not doing that. Are you crazy?

Basically if Americans spend themselves into poverty, then manufacturing will come back. Great for Unions in manufacturing plants, and the rest of us can die in poverty. Not happening. Sorry bro... not happening.

Why not just have most, if not all "manufacturing jobs" in developing countries?

Well.... drastically jack up taxes, and regulations, and increase the minimum wage to $20/hour, and you will have all manufacturing jobs in developing countries.

You are asking me why... as if I would know. There are many different competing forces that drive business decisions.

Among the reasons why companies try and have manufacturing here.... would be short turn around time. Much easier to adjust for consumer demand, when the manufacturing plant is 1 hour away, rather than 3 months away.

But again, everything has a cost trade off. Eventually if the costs of local labor get too high, then the offset of having it manufactured 3 months away is practical.

 

[PurpleOwl]

The people who think you can cut taxes or the minimum wage and that will "encourage" (to put it nicely) CEO's and business owners to hire more employees in America. Rather than just having the government employ them to do the same thing.

here's a list of 27 companies that pay no tax, as if they were a church

27 giant profitable companies paid no taxes

First your claim isn't even true. Second, it is not relevant to the discussion... but I will say this.

They paid no American Corporate income tax, because they off shored their earnings.... to avoid the tax.

Again, this isn't shocking. Do you take every deduction you can to lower your tax bill? I do. My parents do. My friends do. My co-workers do. Everyone does.

Why do you expect corporations to not take deductions, that YOU YOURSELF would take, if you could?

The whole reason companies do this, is because the 35% tax rate is one of the highest in the world, and just as you and I would avoid such a high tax, so do corporations.

As long as you create incentives with high taxes, companies will change how they act in response to those incentives.

nobody is faulting the ceos for taking tax breaks im blaming people like you who not only want those tax breaks to remain the same, but also want to give them even more. My answer to your "who is the boot licker" question, is you.

But again, this isn't even true.

Companies can avoid the corporate tax on profit. True. They can't avoid the payroll tax on employee wages, at all, or any of the other costs.

The very first company mentioned in your article was Level 3 Communications.
Level 3 Communications, Inc. - Investor Relations - Financial Information - Quarterly Financials

From the investor relations page, on their quarterly report. PDF named 2Q16 Earnings Release. Page 5.

View attachment 91824

Full year income tax rate, ~30%. In other words, the left-wing article you posted, played you like a mindless lemming, and you ran off the cliff with it.

If you think they lied, put your money where your mouth is, and sue them. Let's see you take them to court for fraud. We both know you can't, because we both know the article lied.

then change laws so that they do pay taxes, im not blaming them for taking advantage of the ridiculously low taxes in america, thats a straw man.

However, none of this is relevant to the discussion anyway.

The reason companies choose automation over human labor, is because the cost of the labor exceeds the massive costs of automation.

Lowering taxes would lower the cost of hiring human labor, and thus would make human capital more cost competitive with automation.

Companies pay taxes on Unemployment compensation. Workers Comp insurance. On medicare and social security. And of course now with Obama care, health insurance mandates.

All of these, plus the endless paperwork at the Local, State, and Federal governments, cost companies hundreds of thousands, and larger ones, millions.

Lowering the costs of doing any, or all, would help make workers more competitive against automation.

Lowering the minimum wage would help in some respects, and not in others. And contrary to moronic belief, lower the minimum wage doesn't result in 50¢ wages. Germany until 2015, didn't have any minimum wage law at all, and contrary to the left-wing myth, only a tiny fraction of the public was under unions.

first of all Germany has a minimum wage thats ridiculous. Just like the rest of your argument. If you think you could just cut everyones taxes and make everyone rich your deluded. Taxes are lower in the USA than most developed countries. Giving your boss more money, wont increase your pay check.

Trickle down is a failure.

 

[Andylusion]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Efficiency has served us well but cannot solve our MADE IN AMERICA dearth, when it comes to rolling products off the assembly line. It takes word of mouth, a commitment to spending a few quarters more and looking for the label that says MADE IN AMERICA. And dedication too.

Well, that is not going to happen. Sorry, it's not.

Let me give you a quick example from my own life. Actually two examples.

First was my air conditioning in my home. The blower on the HVAC went out. Everything else was fine, blower motor dead.

So I punched in a direct replacement. The direct replacement was $300. I didn't have that kind of money at the time, so 6 months later, when the winter started coming, and I had to get it fixed, I did a broader (not limited to the American companies replacement) search. I found a non-US manufacturer, that had a replacement motor, for $160.

Now which do you think I bought? $300... or $160?

Who in their right mind is going to make that expensive choice? "Yes, I like being poor! I'll buy the exact same product, for double the cost!"

If McDonald's was $10 for a burger, and Wendy's was $4.... who would go to McDonalds?

Similarly, a while back I considered doing this 'buy American' thing, and started looking for American made clothing. What I discovered was that for the same shirt, same pants, same underwear... the price was more than double. A standard dress shirt is $10 imported. Same shirt made in the USA, $40 to $50.

I'm not doing that. Are you crazy?

Basically if Americans spend themselves into poverty, then manufacturing will come back. Great for Unions in manufacturing plants, and the rest of us can die in poverty. Not happening. Sorry bro... not happening.

Why not just have most, if not all "manufacturing jobs" in developing countries?

I will say this. What you typically find is that the manufacturing done here in America, is high value goods.

Obviously, if what you are making is worth thousands of dollars, then you can afford to pay higher priced labor to do it.

Most of what is imported, is cheap goods. Like a fan to keep you cool in the summer, is typically imported. Low-value goods, can't bring in the revenue to pay for high priced American labor. Thus it is imported.

 

[PurpleOwl]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Efficiency has served us well but cannot solve our MADE IN AMERICA dearth, when it comes to rolling products off the assembly line. It takes word of mouth, a commitment to spending a few quarters more and looking for the label that says MADE IN AMERICA. And dedication too.

Well, that is not going to happen. Sorry, it's not.

Let me give you a quick example from my own life. Actually two examples.

First was my air conditioning in my home. The blower on the HVAC went out. Everything else was fine, blower motor dead.

So I punched in a direct replacement. The direct replacement was $300. I didn't have that kind of money at the time, so 6 months later, when the winter started coming, and I had to get it fixed, I did a broader (not limited to the American companies replacement) search. I found a non-US manufacturer, that had a replacement motor, for $160.

Now which do you think I bought? $300... or $160?

Who in their right mind is going to make that expensive choice? "Yes, I like being poor! I'll buy the exact same product, for double the cost!"

If McDonald's was $10 for a burger, and Wendy's was $4.... who would go to McDonalds?

Similarly, a while back I considered doing this 'buy American' thing, and started looking for American made clothing. What I discovered was that for the same shirt, same pants, same underwear... the price was more than double. A standard dress shirt is $10 imported. Same shirt made in the USA, $40 to $50.

I'm not doing that. Are you crazy?

Basically if Americans spend themselves into poverty, then manufacturing will come back. Great for Unions in manufacturing plants, and the rest of us can die in poverty. Not happening. Sorry bro... not happening.

Why not just have most, if not all "manufacturing jobs" in developing countries?

I will say this. What you typically find is that the manufacturing done here in America, is high value goods.

Obviously, if what you are making is worth thousands of dollars, then you can afford to pay higher priced labor to do it.

Most of what is imported, is cheap goods. Like a fan to keep you cool in the summer, is typically imported. Low-value goods, can't bring in the revenue to pay for high priced American labor. Thus it is imported.

So then let it be imported? Why does everything you use need to be made within your nations borders?

 

[xband]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Efficiency has served us well but cannot solve our MADE IN AMERICA dearth, when it comes to rolling products off the assembly line. It takes word of mouth, a commitment to spending a few quarters more and looking for the label that says MADE IN AMERICA. And dedication too.

Well, that is not going to happen. Sorry, it's not.

Let me give you a quick example from my own life. Actually two examples.

First was my air conditioning in my home. The blower on the HVAC went out. Everything else was fine, blower motor dead.

So I punched in a direct replacement. The direct replacement was $300. I didn't have that kind of money at the time, so 6 months later, when the winter started coming, and I had to get it fixed, I did a broader (not limited to the American companies replacement) search. I found a non-US manufacturer, that had a replacement motor, for $160.

Now which do you think I bought? $300... or $160?

Who in their right mind is going to make that expensive choice? "Yes, I like being poor! I'll buy the exact same product, for double the cost!"

If McDonald's was $10 for a burger, and Wendy's was $4.... who would go to McDonalds?

Similarly, a while back I considered doing this 'buy American' thing, and started looking for American made clothing. What I discovered was that for the same shirt, same pants, same underwear... the price was more than double. A standard dress shirt is $10 imported. Same shirt made in the USA, $40 to $50.

I'm not doing that. Are you crazy?

Basically if Americans spend themselves into poverty, then manufacturing will come back. Great for Unions in manufacturing plants, and the rest of us can die in poverty. Not happening. Sorry bro... not happening.

How did you prove the motor was bad, did you meg it and resistance check the windings? You have single phase in your home and single phase motors need a 'start capacitor' that more times than not is the reason the motor shaft does not turn but hum. That happened to me recently and I did a check on the capacitor and it was bad. I bought a new one at small electric shop and replaced it for $5. Much physically easier and cheaper than replacing the motor with start capacitor strapped to it. If the motor winding burned out or the motor shaft bearings froze then the motor has to be replaced. Just a thought.

 

[Andylusion]

The people who think you can cut taxes or the minimum wage and that will "encourage" (to put it nicely) CEO's and business owners to hire more employees in America. Rather than just having the government employ them to do the same thing.

here's a list of 27 companies that pay no tax, as if they were a church

27 giant profitable companies paid no taxes

First your claim isn't even true. Second, it is not relevant to the discussion... but I will say this.

They paid no American Corporate income tax, because they off shored their earnings.... to avoid the tax.

Again, this isn't shocking. Do you take every deduction you can to lower your tax bill? I do. My parents do. My friends do. My co-workers do. Everyone does.

Why do you expect corporations to not take deductions, that YOU YOURSELF would take, if you could?

The whole reason companies do this, is because the 35% tax rate is one of the highest in the world, and just as you and I would avoid such a high tax, so do corporations.

As long as you create incentives with high taxes, companies will change how they act in response to those incentives.

nobody is faulting the ceos for taking tax breaks im blaming people like you who not only want those tax breaks to remain the same, but also want to give them even more. My answer to your "who is boot licker" question is you

But again, this isn't even true.

Companies can avoid the corporate tax on profit. True. They can't avoid the payroll tax on employee wages, at all, or any of the other costs.

The very first company mentioned in your article was Level 3 Communications.
Level 3 Communications, Inc. - Investor Relations - Financial Information - Quarterly Financials

From the investor relations page, on their quarterly report. PDF named 2Q16 Earnings Release. Page 5.

View attachment 91824

Full year income tax rate, ~30%. In other words, the left-wing article you posted, played you like a mindless lemming, and you ran off the cliff with it.

If you think they lied, put your money where your mouth is, and sue them. Let's see you take them to court for fraud. We both know you can't, because we both know the article lied.

then change laws so that they do pay taxes, im not blaming them for taking advantage of the ridiculously low taxes in america, thats a straw man.

However, none of this is relevant to the discussion anyway.

The reason companies choose automation over human labor, is because the cost of the labor exceeds the massive costs of automation.

Lowering taxes would lower the cost of hiring human labor, and thus would make human capital more cost competitive with automation.

Companies pay taxes on Unemployment compensation. Workers Comp insurance. On medicare and social security. And of course now with Obama care, health insurance mandates.

All of these, plus the endless paperwork at the Local, State, and Federal governments, cost companies hundreds of thousands, and larger ones, millions.

Lowering the costs of doing any, or all, would help make workers more competitive against automation.

Lowering the minimum wage would help in some respects, and not in others. And contrary to moronic belief, lower the minimum wage doesn't result in 50¢ wages. Germany until 2015, didn't have any minimum wage law at all, and contrary to the left-wing myth, only a tiny fraction of the public was under unions.

first of all Germany has a minimum wage thats ridiculous. Just like the rest of your argument. If you could just cut everyones taxes and make everyone rich your deluded. Taxes are lower in the USA than most developed countries. Giving your boss more money, wont increase your pay check.

Trickle down is a failure.

For the love of the mentally challenged..... hey moron... name one job that is provided by a impoverished homeless beggar.... when you do, I'll agree Trickle Down is a failure.

Until then, every single job that exists in this world today, is provided by a rich person. Even the independent auto mechanic.... what cars would he work on without rich people making cars? What tools would he use to fix the car, without rich people making tools? What parts would get have to replace broken parts, without rich people making parts?

Trickle down is how the world works. Only the most ignorant of fools doesn't know this.

nobody is faulting the ceos for taking tax breaks im blaming people like you who not only want those tax breaks to remain the same

Well you missed the point. If you take away those tax breaks... they'll just move the money somewhere else. People are not going to pay taxes that are too high.

There is nothing you can do to change this. You know how much money the government collected in the 1950s? About 17% of GDP. Today we collect 18% of GDP. But the tax rate was up near 90% in the 1950s.

You can make whatever law you want, and the rich are simply going to move the wealth, somewhere else. France put in place a wealth tax. What happened? The wealthy literally closed up companies, and left the country. They opened up new companies outside France.

You want to blame me... ok.... let's pretend I'm not here, and you are King of the country. You can eliminate all the tax deductions, and charge whatever rate you want. Now all the wealthy have left, and you still have no tax money, but now you have even less jobs, and more poverty. You are not going to get the wealthy to pay the taxes you want, whether you have the deductions or not. Not happening.

Venezuela tried this, and over a million people have left Venezuela. The country is in object poverty now. Food shortages, and rampant crime, and no jobs. But at least they got rid of the tax deductions. That worked like a charm didn't it?

first of all Germany has a minimum wage thats ridiculous.

No, it's a fact. Up until 2015, Germany never had a minimum wage. It's fact. Just like Trickle down is how the economy works, is a fact.

 

[Andylusion]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Efficiency has served us well but cannot solve our MADE IN AMERICA dearth, when it comes to rolling products off the assembly line. It takes word of mouth, a commitment to spending a few quarters more and looking for the label that says MADE IN AMERICA. And dedication too.

Well, that is not going to happen. Sorry, it's not.

Let me give you a quick example from my own life. Actually two examples.

First was my air conditioning in my home. The blower on the HVAC went out. Everything else was fine, blower motor dead.

So I punched in a direct replacement. The direct replacement was $300. I didn't have that kind of money at the time, so 6 months later, when the winter started coming, and I had to get it fixed, I did a broader (not limited to the American companies replacement) search. I found a non-US manufacturer, that had a replacement motor, for $160.

Now which do you think I bought? $300... or $160?

Who in their right mind is going to make that expensive choice? "Yes, I like being poor! I'll buy the exact same product, for double the cost!"

If McDonald's was $10 for a burger, and Wendy's was $4.... who would go to McDonalds?

Similarly, a while back I considered doing this 'buy American' thing, and started looking for American made clothing. What I discovered was that for the same shirt, same pants, same underwear... the price was more than double. A standard dress shirt is $10 imported. Same shirt made in the USA, $40 to $50.

I'm not doing that. Are you crazy?

Basically if Americans spend themselves into poverty, then manufacturing will come back. Great for Unions in manufacturing plants, and the rest of us can die in poverty. Not happening. Sorry bro... not happening.

How did you prove the motor was bad, did you meg it and resistance check the windings? You have single phase in your home and single phase motors need a 'start capacitor' that more times than not is the reason the motor shaft does not turn but hum. That happened to me recently and I did a check on the capacitor and it was bad. I bought a new one at small electric shop and replaced it for $5. Much physically easier and cheaper than replacing the motor with start capacitor strapped to it. If the motor winding burned out or the motor shaft bearings froze then the motor has to be replaced. Just a thought.

I did check the resistance, that was fine. The motor was the original motor from the 1970s when the house was built. The motor didn't have a start cap at all.

It seized up. You could feel the barrings were grinding when you spun it by hand.

And the new motor has worked perfectly for the last 2 years. Yeah, I would have loved for it to have been something easy. It was a pain bashing it to knock the blower blades free from the motor shaft.

 

[Andylusion]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Efficiency has served us well but cannot solve our MADE IN AMERICA dearth, when it comes to rolling products off the assembly line. It takes word of mouth, a commitment to spending a few quarters more and looking for the label that says MADE IN AMERICA. And dedication too.

Well, that is not going to happen. Sorry, it's not.

Let me give you a quick example from my own life. Actually two examples.

First was my air conditioning in my home. The blower on the HVAC went out. Everything else was fine, blower motor dead.

So I punched in a direct replacement. The direct replacement was $300. I didn't have that kind of money at the time, so 6 months later, when the winter started coming, and I had to get it fixed, I did a broader (not limited to the American companies replacement) search. I found a non-US manufacturer, that had a replacement motor, for $160.

Now which do you think I bought? $300... or $160?

Who in their right mind is going to make that expensive choice? "Yes, I like being poor! I'll buy the exact same product, for double the cost!"

If McDonald's was $10 for a burger, and Wendy's was $4.... who would go to McDonalds?

Similarly, a while back I considered doing this 'buy American' thing, and started looking for American made clothing. What I discovered was that for the same shirt, same pants, same underwear... the price was more than double. A standard dress shirt is $10 imported. Same shirt made in the USA, $40 to $50.

I'm not doing that. Are you crazy?

Basically if Americans spend themselves into poverty, then manufacturing will come back. Great for Unions in manufacturing plants, and the rest of us can die in poverty. Not happening. Sorry bro... not happening.

Why not just have most, if not all "manufacturing jobs" in developing countries?

I will say this. What you typically find is that the manufacturing done here in America, is high value goods.

Obviously, if what you are making is worth thousands of dollars, then you can afford to pay higher priced labor to do it.

Most of what is imported, is cheap goods. Like a fan to keep you cool in the summer, is typically imported. Low-value goods, can't bring in the revenue to pay for high priced American labor. Thus it is imported.

So then let it be imported? Why does everything you use need to be made within your nations borders?

Never suggested it did. I'm all for importing and exporting. I am for 100% free trade with anyone.

 

[xband]

To reshore or not to reshore? Nearly half of the U.S. manufacturing companies we surveyed would consider reshoring at least part of their operations by 2020 (figure 10). Reasons for considering reshoring include favorable local logistics and supply chains, diminishing cost structure differential, and increase in domestic demand.

Efficiency has served us well but cannot solve our MADE IN AMERICA dearth, when it comes to rolling products off the assembly line. It takes word of mouth, a commitment to spending a few quarters more and looking for the label that says MADE IN AMERICA. And dedication too.

Well, that is not going to happen. Sorry, it's not.

Let me give you a quick example from my own life. Actually two examples.

First was my air conditioning in my home. The blower on the HVAC went out. Everything else was fine, blower motor dead.

So I punched in a direct replacement. The direct replacement was $300. I didn't have that kind of money at the time, so 6 months later, when the winter started coming, and I had to get it fixed, I did a broader (not limited to the American companies replacement) search. I found a non-US manufacturer, that had a replacement motor, for $160.

Now which do you think I bought? $300... or $160?

Who in their right mind is going to make that expensive choice? "Yes, I like being poor! I'll buy the exact same product, for double the cost!"

If McDonald's was $10 for a burger, and Wendy's was $4.... who would go to McDonalds?

Similarly, a while back I considered doing this 'buy American' thing, and started looking for American made clothing. What I discovered was that for the same shirt, same pants, same underwear... the price was more than double. A standard dress shirt is $10 imported. Same shirt made in the USA, $40 to $50.

I'm not doing that. Are you crazy?

Basically if Americans spend themselves into poverty, then manufacturing will come back. Great for Unions in manufacturing plants, and the rest of us can die in poverty. Not happening. Sorry bro... not happening.

How did you prove the motor was bad, did you meg it and resistance check the windings? You have single phase in your home and single phase motors need a 'start capacitor' that more times than not is the reason the motor shaft does not turn but hum. That happened to me recently and I did a check on the capacitor and it was bad. I bought a new one at small electric shop and replaced it for $5. Much physically easier and cheaper than replacing the motor with start capacitor strapped to it. If the motor winding burned out or the motor shaft bearings froze then the motor has to be replaced. Just a thought.

I did check the resistance, that was fine. The motor was the original motor from the 1970s when the house was built. The motor didn't have a start cap at all.

It seized up. You could feel the barrings were grinding when you spun it by hand.

And the new motor has worked perfectly for the last 2 years. Yeah, I would have loved for it to have been something easy. It was a pain bashing it to knock the blower blades free from the motor shaft.

You got the job done so I will not comment on how to get the fan hub loose from the shaft without bashing it. My four year old refrigerator freezer stopped working a week ago. I am not going to tear it apart to find out why and just buy a new one.

 

[PurpleOwl]

For the love of the mentally challenged..... hey moron... name one job that is provided by a impoverished homeless beggar.... when you do, I'll agree Trickle Down is a failure.

your random straw man and poor metaphors aside, trickle is a failure, we dont need every idiot to beleive in a fact, for it to be true, if that were the case we would still believe the world was 10,000 year old

Until then, every single job that exists in this world today, is provided by a rich person. Even the independent auto mechanic.... what cars would he work on with rich people making cars? What tools would he use to fix the car, without rich people making tools? What parts would get have to replace broken parts, without rich people making parts?

governments employ plenty of people

Trickle down is how the world works. Only the most ignorant of fools doesn't know this.

this statement shows your ignorance, your not even sure what trickle down economics is are you? your just being defensive, and antagonistic.....its okay moron

Trickle-down economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well you missed the point. If you take away those tax breaks... they'll just move the money somewhere else. People are not going to pay taxes that are too high.

let them leave

There is nothing you can do to change this. You know how much money the government collected in the 1950s? About 17% of GDP. Today we collect 18% of GDP. But the tax rate was up near 90% in the 1950s.

the rich payed 90% in the 1950's not everyone, and guess what? they were still rich

You can make whatever law you want, and the rich are simply going to move the wealth, somewhere else. France put in place a wealth tax. What happened? The wealthy literally closed up companies, and left the country. They opened up new companies outside France.

let them leave

You want to blame me... ok....

people who make these arguments, yes.

let's pretend I'm not here, and you are King of the country. You can eliminate all the tax deductions, and charge whatever rate you want. Now all the wealthy have left, and you still have no tax money, but now you have even less jobs, and more poverty. You are not going to get the wealthy to pay the taxes you want, whether you have the deductions or not. Not happening.

They dont have magic powers let them leave we will replace them. They are a burden not an asset, disloyal and unpatriotic burdens at that.

Venezuela tried this, and over a million people have left Venezuela. The country is in object poverty now. Food shortages, and rampant crime, and no jobs. But at least they got rid of the tax deductions. That worked like a charm didn't it?

thats a false equivalence of ridiculous standards there are plenty of capitalist countries with no taxes like somalia, but the "invisible hand of the market" hasn't helped them out has it?

No, it's a fact. Up until 2015, Germany never had a minimum wage. It's fact. Just like Trickle down is how the economy works, is a fact.

they had a minimum wage it just wasn't organized the same way as in the US. Thats not the same as not having a minimum wage whatsoever.

Anything else you need to abolish? Is it just the minimum wage or do we need to abolish all forms of human progress of the past 200 years for your little fantasy to work? Can women still vote?

 

[Andylusion]

For the love of the mentally challenged..... hey moron... name one job that is provided by a impoverished homeless beggar.... when you do, I'll agree Trickle Down is a failure.

your random straw man and poor metaphors aside, trickle is a failure, we dont need every idiot to beleive in a fact, for it to be true, if that were the case we would still believe the world was 10,000 year old

Until then, every single job that exists in this world today, is provided by a rich person. Even the independent auto mechanic.... what cars would he work on with rich people making cars? What tools would he use to fix the car, without rich people making tools? What parts would get have to replace broken parts, without rich people making parts?

governments employ plenty of people

Trickle down is how the world works. Only the most ignorant of fools doesn't know this.

this statement shows your ignorance, your not even sure what trickle down economics is are you? your just being defensive, and antagonistic.....its okay moron

Trickle-down economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well you missed the point. If you take away those tax breaks... they'll just move the money somewhere else. People are not going to pay taxes that are too high.

let them leave

There is nothing you can do to change this. You know how much money the government collected in the 1950s? About 17% of GDP. Today we collect 18% of GDP. But the tax rate was up near 90% in the 1950s.

the rich payed 90% in the 150's not everyone did, and guess what? they were still rich

You can make whatever law you want, and the rich are simply going to move the wealth, somewhere else. France put in place a wealth tax. What happened? The wealthy literally closed up companies, and left the country. They opened up new companies outside France.

let them leave

You want to blame me... ok....

people who make these arguments, yes.

let's pretend I'm not here, and you are King of the country. You can eliminate all the tax deductions, and charge whatever rate you want. Now all the wealthy have left, and you still have no tax money, but now you have even less jobs, and more poverty. You are not going to get the wealthy to pay the taxes you want, whether you have the deductions or not. Not happening.

They dont have magic powers let them leave we will replace them. They are a burden not an asset, disloyal and unpatriotic burdens at that.

Venezuela tried this, and over a million people have left Venezuela. The country is in object poverty now. Food shortages, and rampant crime, and no jobs. But at least they got rid of the tax deductions. That worked like a charm didn't it?

thats a false equivalence of ridiculous standards there are plenty of capitalist countries with no taxes like somalia, but the "invisible hand of the market" hasn't helped them out has it?

No, it's a fact. Up until 2015, Germany never had a minimum wage. It's fact. Just like Trickle down is how the economy works, is a fact.

they had a minimum wage it just wasn't organized the same way as in the US. Thats not the same as not having a minimum wage whatsoever.

Anything else you to abolish? Is it it just the minimum wage or do we need to abolish all forms of human progress of the past 200 years for your little fantasy to work? Can women still vote?

let them leave

They will. And you will be starving, and broke, and without a job, and without products to buy, and without electricity. Look at Venezuela.

governments employ plenty of people

Yeah..... I'm sorry.... which one of those 'plenty of people' would have a job without the rich?

So the top 25% of wage earners pay 85% of all taxes. That's the CEOs. To reach the top 25%, you need an income of $150K. The Median CEO wage, is $160K. So without all those CEOs you hate so much, 85% of the tax income into government would disappear. That means all those "plenty of people" wouldn't be so "plenty" anymore.

Oh, and by the way.... those computers and buildings, and cars, and tools and supplies that government uses.... which of those were not made by rich people? None? Could make it hard to do those government jobs without paper.... or computers... or light bulbs.... eh?

your random straw man and poor metaphors aside, trickle is a failure, we dont need every idiot to beleive in a fact, for it to be true, if that were the case we would still believe the world was 10,000 year old

It's not a metaphor. It's a fact. Where are the jobs, not provided by the rich? Where are the jobs provided by the poor? Where does your paycheck come from? The rich. I work for a rich guy. Everyone I know works for a rich guy. Haven't met a single person who didn't.

Trickle down is how the world works. You go to Egypt? The people who have jobs, work for rich people. France? Same. UK? Same. Germany? Same. Russia? Same. China? Same. It's how the whole freaking world works.

the rich payed 90% in the 150's not everyone did, and guess what? they were still rich

...and the poor were still poor. You missed the point though. The point was, the government is collecting more revenue today.... than it did in the 1950s. Why? Because the rich moved their wealth to avoid the taxes in the 1950s.

They didn't pay 90% in the 1950s. Now at this point, you can either let the facts inform your opinion... are ignore the opinion, and lump yourself with the people who believe the Earth is flat.

They dont have magic powers let them leave we will replace them. They are a burden not an asset, disloyal and unpatriotic burdens at that.

First, Russia tried that. Stalin infamously had all the wealthy business owners killed. The result was a collapse of the economy. You can't just "replace them". When Cuba's government socialized the sugar industry, the business owners fled to the US, and opened shop here. The sugar industry in Cuba fell drastically. You can't just "replace" them. It's never worked before, and it never will in the future. Facts contradict your claim.

Further, then why is Venezuela in ruins? They made all the rich leave. Without that burden, why isn't life better?

Why is France in an economic Emergency? The rich were all leaving, why isn't France better off?

Do you not work? Without your employer, you would be better off? How?

thats a false equivalence of ridiculous standards there are plenty of capitalist countries with no taxes like somalia, but the "invisible hand of the market" hasn't helped them out has it?

Huh? Somalia was not by any measure a 'capitalist' based country, for the majority of its existence. After independence in 1960, there was a brief period of growth and investment, that ended abruptly in 1969, when the country was taken over by socialists. Between 1969, and 1991, the country was run into the ground by anti-wealth, anti-capitalist, anti-investment pro-socialist policies that destroyed what little the country had.

And you want to claim that Venezuela has less in common with the US, than Somalia? Are you on pot right now?

If anything, consider America between 1776 and 1909, where there was no income tax or corporate tax. By every possible measure, the increase in the standard of living was greater in the 1800s, than the 1900s.

America itself proves the 'invisible hand of the market" helped.

they had a minimum wage it just wasn't organized the same way as in the US. Thats not the same as not having a minimum wage whatsoever.

Well you are wrong. You have the right to be wrong, but don't think lying to me is going to convince me of anything. False claim. Lying isn't an argument.