There are questions about what WWII Fighter was the best

[Daryl Hunt]

Now, back to the original question. Which Fighter from WWII was the best.

The ME-262 was the best. They were just introduced too late in the war to make an impact

The ME262 had some serious problems. The foremost was the materials for the Turbines were scarce. They ended up using other things than Titanium which was controlled by the allies. This made their engines only operate less than 10 hours on a good day. On a bad day, only 2 (one flight or less). Had they been introduced earlier, the XP-80 would also have been introduced earlier. The XP-80 could have been made operational in 1943 and it was a match for the ME262. With the exception, the P-80 Engine was much more reliable. The YP-80 didn't see a fight but it was used in Italy looking for the elusive jet recons that Germany was using. Funny, right after the introduction of the P-80 in Italy, the AR234 stopped flying recons to that area. Guess the Luftaffe wasn't all that dumb

The difference in time period between the ME262 and the P-80 was that the Germans pushed the 262 in too fast without the support and time it really needed. The P-80 wasn't really fully operational until middle of 1944 where it was sent to the Phillipines but saw no combat.

 

[Sunni Man]

The achilles heel of the Me-262 was in landing.

Landing the plane required the pilot to fly low and in a straight line for several miles, in order to scrub off speed before touching down.

Allied pilots knew they had little chance of downing the German jet fighter in a dogfight due to its superior speed. So allied fighters would loiter around Me-262 landing strips waiting for the jet plane to return from a mission. Because the jet would be just about out of fuel, and had to maintain the low, straight trajectory in order to land. Me-262's were easy pray for Allied fighters. ....

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The achilles heel of the Me-262 was in landing.

Landing the plane required the pilot to fly low and in a straight line for several miles, in order to scrub off speed before touching down.

Allied pilots knew they had little chance of downing the German jet fighter in a dogfight due to its superior speed. So allied fighters would loiter around Me-262 landing strips waiting for the jet plane to return from a mission. Because the jet would be just about out of fuel, and had to maintain the low, straight trajectory in order to land. Me-262's were easy pray for Allied fighters. ....

That only worked AFTER the Allies established air, It was really poor timing. The 262 couldn't dog fight. His mission was against bombers. His flight duration was less than 2 hours. Unless the Fighter caught him with his energy down, the fighter had little chance of interception. But if the 262 was dumb enough to try and make a turn, his energy (speed) drained off fast and he was a sitting duck for the faster fighters. The only real way a 262 could bag a piston fighter was to catch him totally unaware of his environment. And the chance of that was very slim at best. The only way that a piston fighter could bag a 262 was to catch him with his energy down (landing, just after a turn, etc.).

 

[Sunni Man]

That only worked AFTER the Allies established air,

The Me-262 wasn't fielded into combat until mid to late 1944.

By then the Allies basically controlled the skies. And the tactic of shooting down the german jet during both take-off and landing was a well established tactic. ....

 

[Daryl Hunt]

That only worked AFTER the Allies established air,

The Me-262 wasn't fielded into combat until mid to late 1944.

By then the Allies basically controlled the skies. And the tactic of shooting down the german jet during both take-off and landing was a well established tactic. ....

There were over 1000 262s made that wasn't destroyed on the ground. But just over 300 actually made it into service. They didn't lack 262s, they lacked experienced pilots. The Germans could churn out fighters by the thousands out of barns, root cellars and more. But could only field X number of Expertines (aces) at any given time and slowly lost almost all of them. They used quite a few of their "Hitler Youth" for fighter pilots who could barely get the high performance fighter off the ground. They relied on the Expertines they had left to navigate and lead flights. This was slowly not working out even for the massing of fighters.

The 262 didn't have nearly the duration to mass like that so they flew them solo. The problem there was, it took an experienced hand to get it from point A (take off) to point B (attacking the Bombers) and then to point C (getting home without getting lost). Like I said, over 1000 262s were at their disposal but only a little over 300 could actually fly. Had they been able to field the over 1000 262s the bombers would have been wiped out.

 

[westwall]

That only worked AFTER the Allies established air,

The Me-262 wasn't fielded into combat until mid to late 1944.

By then the Allies basically controlled the skies. And the tactic of shooting down the german jet during both take-off and landing was a well established tactic. ....

There were over 1000 262s made that wasn't destroyed on the ground. But just over 300 actually made it into service. They didn't lack 262s, they lacked experienced pilots. The Germans could churn out fighters by the thousands out of barns, root cellars and more. But could only field X number of Expertines (aces) at any given time and slowly lost almost all of them. They used quite a few of their "Hitler Youth" for fighter pilots who could barely get the high performance fighter off the ground. They relied on the Expertines they had left to navigate and lead flights. This was slowly not working out even for the massing of fighters.

The 262 didn't have nearly the duration to mass like that so they flew them solo. The problem there was, it took an experienced hand to get it from point A (take off) to point B (attacking the Bombers) and then to point C (getting home without getting lost). Like I said, over 1000 262s were at their disposal but only a little over 300 could actually fly. Had they been able to field the over 1000 262s the bombers would have been wiped out.

They had no fuel. The "Experten" (not expertine) for the most part survived quite well. The 262 was a dog in a dogfight, but could outrun anything in level flight. 1,000 262's would have been a problem, but there is no way they could alter the course of the war. The Brits had the Gloster Meteor in numbers so the 262's speed advantage was going to be very short lived, and the Hawker Tempest could stalk them as they were landing, and there were 1,700 of those and with their greater reliability, and good speed in a dive, they were everywhere.

Add to that the Junkers Jumo engine was notoriously unreliable, and the aforementioned lack of fuel for training and the 262 could never be anything more than an annoyance at the strategic level, and a sought after trophy on the tactical.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

That only worked AFTER the Allies established air,

The Me-262 wasn't fielded into combat until mid to late 1944.

By then the Allies basically controlled the skies. And the tactic of shooting down the german jet during both take-off and landing was a well established tactic. ....

There were over 1000 262s made that wasn't destroyed on the ground. But just over 300 actually made it into service. They didn't lack 262s, they lacked experienced pilots. The Germans could churn out fighters by the thousands out of barns, root cellars and more. But could only field X number of Expertines (aces) at any given time and slowly lost almost all of them. They used quite a few of their "Hitler Youth" for fighter pilots who could barely get the high performance fighter off the ground. They relied on the Expertines they had left to navigate and lead flights. This was slowly not working out even for the massing of fighters.

The 262 didn't have nearly the duration to mass like that so they flew them solo. The problem there was, it took an experienced hand to get it from point A (take off) to point B (attacking the Bombers) and then to point C (getting home without getting lost). Like I said, over 1000 262s were at their disposal but only a little over 300 could actually fly. Had they been able to field the over 1000 262s the bombers would have been wiped out.

They had no fuel. The "Experten" (not expertine) for the most part survived quite well. The 262 was a dog in a dogfight, but could outrun anything in level flight. 1,000 262's would have been a problem, but there is no way they could alter the course of the war. The Brits had the Gloster Meteor in numbers so the 262's speed advantage was going to be very short lived, and the Hawker Tempest could stalk them as they were landing, and there were 1,700 of those and with their greater reliability, and good speed in a dive, they were everywhere.

No fuel at the very end. Even after we destroyed the Rumanian Oil Operations, they were making synthetic fuels. Until those were heavily bombed, they had the fuel. We didn't completely shut that tap off even then but did turn the knob down quite a bit.

The Gloster Meteor had a top speed of only 460 mph. It wasn't really any better than the XP-59 which the 262 would eat it's lunch. Neither was really production but lead to better AC later.

Add to that the Junkers Jumo engine was notoriously unreliable, and the aforementioned lack of fuel for training and the 262 could never be anything more than an annoyance at the strategic level, and a sought after trophy on the tactical.

What it lacked was the material for the turbine section. The engine was actually better but the turbine section was the weakpoint. The Tungsten from Africa was captured and they had a shortage of it.

You are under the impression that they had an endless supply of experienced pilots. There is only one way to become an experienced pilot during war. Kill the other guy first. Or you can have a decent training period. In the last 2 years of the war, the Luftwaffe extremely shortened their training period. They pulled experienced pilots from Russia, put in the Hitler Youth almost directly into combat, pulled cargo and bomber pilots directly into the 190s and 109s. In a flight of 50, you would see ONE Experten pilot as flight leader. The rest of them were sent to the 262 units. In the end, the 190 and the 109 became almost turkey shoots. The bad part is, you had no idea if it was a cream puff or an experten pilot you faced. The allies started to chalk up quite a long list of Aces during that time.

They had the gas for the 262 but their supply lines to get it to where it would do the greatest was interrupted on a regular basis by Navy, Grunt and AF. Oftentimes, we forget about the other players.

 

[westwall]

That only worked AFTER the Allies established air,

The Me-262 wasn't fielded into combat until mid to late 1944.

By then the Allies basically controlled the skies. And the tactic of shooting down the german jet during both take-off and landing was a well established tactic. ....

There were over 1000 262s made that wasn't destroyed on the ground. But just over 300 actually made it into service. They didn't lack 262s, they lacked experienced pilots. The Germans could churn out fighters by the thousands out of barns, root cellars and more. But could only field X number of Expertines (aces) at any given time and slowly lost almost all of them. They used quite a few of their "Hitler Youth" for fighter pilots who could barely get the high performance fighter off the ground. They relied on the Expertines they had left to navigate and lead flights. This was slowly not working out even for the massing of fighters.

The 262 didn't have nearly the duration to mass like that so they flew them solo. The problem there was, it took an experienced hand to get it from point A (take off) to point B (attacking the Bombers) and then to point C (getting home without getting lost). Like I said, over 1000 262s were at their disposal but only a little over 300 could actually fly. Had they been able to field the over 1000 262s the bombers would have been wiped out.

They had no fuel. The "Experten" (not expertine) for the most part survived quite well. The 262 was a dog in a dogfight, but could outrun anything in level flight. 1,000 262's would have been a problem, but there is no way they could alter the course of the war. The Brits had the Gloster Meteor in numbers so the 262's speed advantage was going to be very short lived, and the Hawker Tempest could stalk them as they were landing, and there were 1,700 of those and with their greater reliability, and good speed in a dive, they were everywhere.

No fuel at the very end. Even after we destroyed the Rumanian Oil Operations, they were making synthetic fuels. Until those were heavily bombed, they had the fuel. We didn't completely shut that tap off even then but did turn the knob down quite a bit.

The Gloster Meteor had a top speed of only 460 mph. It wasn't really any better than the XP-59 which the 262 would eat it's lunch. Neither was really production but lead to better AC later.

Add to that the Junkers Jumo engine was notoriously unreliable, and the aforementioned lack of fuel for training and the 262 could never be anything more than an annoyance at the strategic level, and a sought after trophy on the tactical.

What it lacked was the material for the turbine section. The engine was actually better but the turbine section was the weakpoint. The Tungsten from Africa was captured and they had a shortage of it.

You are under the impression that they had an endless supply of experienced pilots. There is only one way to become an experienced pilot during war. Kill the other guy first. Or you can have a decent training period. In the last 2 years of the war, the Luftwaffe extremely shortened their training period. They pulled experienced pilots from Russia, put in the Hitler Youth almost directly into combat, pulled cargo and bomber pilots directly into the 190s and 109s. In a flight of 50, you would see ONE Experten pilot as flight leader. The rest of them were sent to the 262 units. In the end, the 190 and the 109 became almost turkey shoots. The bad part is, you had no idea if it was a cream puff or an experten pilot you faced. The allies started to chalk up quite a long list of Aces during that time.

They had the gas for the 262 but their supply lines to get it to where it would do the greatest was interrupted on a regular basis by Navy, Grunt and AF. Oftentimes, we forget about the other players.

I guess you keep missing the part where I say they lacked fuel to train their new pilots. I think I have mentioned it at least three times, if not more. The Experten were very well trained, and they survived for the most part. They too were beset by lack of fuel however, so they simply weren't able to fly missions due to that lack. Below are all of the operational 252 squadrons. TWO of them were made up of Experten. JV 44 is the most well known that being Gallands "Squadron of Experts". Kommando Nowotney also had a good number of Experten in its ranks. The rest of them were training, bombing, recon, or experimental.

It is a myth that they took untrained HJ kids and put them into combat. The majority of the HJ that went to fighter units had extensive training in gliders so understood the principles of flight very well. Towards the very end they were sending ANYBODY out, with little training on one way suicide missions to stop the Soviet Union by kamikaze attacks on the various bridges that were being used to cross into the Fatherland. But, that was at the very end, and they weren't meant to do anything but dive into a bridge.

But, once again, the ultimate control over the Luftwaffe, was their crippling lack of fuel.

• Erprobungskommando 262 (test unit at Lechfeld)
• Kommando Nowotny (commanded by Major Walter Nowotny)
• Kommando Schenk (Conversion unit for bomber pilots)
• KG 51 (Kampfgeschwader 51 Staff unit, as well as Gruppen I and II)
• Kommando Edelweis (Experimental unit usin KG 51 pilots)
• Jagdgeschwader 7
• Jagdgruppe 10 (Developed R4M rockets)
• III./Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/JG 2 (Sturmvogel training at Lechfeld)
• KG(J) 6 (Entered training, parts of III Gruppe became operational)
• IV./Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/KG 51 (trained replacements for KG 51)
• Kommando Stamp (Experimental Night Fighter unit defending Berlin)
• I./KG(J)54 (Converted JU 88 unit)
• Einsatz Kommando Braunegg (Reconnaissance unit)
• Nahaufklarungsgruppe 6 (formed from the above)
• 1/Versuchsverband Ob. d.l. (special experimental unit)
• Jagdverband 44 (Galland's elite)
• I./Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/KG(J) (Training unit)
• II./Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/KG(J) (Training unit)

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Gliders don't get you nearly ready for a high powered fighter. There is only two ways to get good at a high speed fighter. 1. Fly a lot of hours in training. 2. Survive enough flights to get good enough. From about the first part of 1944 and on, the Germans lost a tremendous amount of fighter pilots. They had the AC but not enough butts to sit in those seats. Even if they had enough gas, it wouldn't have mattered. The last time the Luftwaffe amassed enough Aircraft, Pilots, Gas and Weapons, they attacked air bases in France. They lost almost all of their AC, Pilots, gas and weapons to a more experienced group of flyers. That was the last time they could even conceive of such action. And that was in 1944.

The Luftwaffe had something like 352 Experten Pilots. Most of them were lost.

 

[westwall]

Gliders don't get you nearly ready for a high powered fighter. There is only two ways to get good at a high speed fighter. 1. Fly a lot of hours in training. 2. Survive enough flights to get good enough. From about the first part of 1944 and on, the Germans lost a tremendous amount of fighter pilots. They had the AC but not enough butts to sit in those seats. Even if they had enough gas, it wouldn't have mattered. The last time the Luftwaffe amassed enough Aircraft, Pilots, Gas and Weapons, they attacked air bases in France. They lost almost all of their AC, Pilots, gas and weapons to a more experienced group of flyers. That was the last time they could even conceive of such action. And that was in 1944.

The Luftwaffe had something like 352 Experten Pilots. Most of them were lost.

I think only 85 are classified as "Experten" based on the requirement to have 100 kills or more, though the reality is there was no set criteria during the war itself. The majority of them survived the war.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Gliders don't get you nearly ready for a high powered fighter. There is only two ways to get good at a high speed fighter. 1. Fly a lot of hours in training. 2. Survive enough flights to get good enough. From about the first part of 1944 and on, the Germans lost a tremendous amount of fighter pilots. They had the AC but not enough butts to sit in those seats. Even if they had enough gas, it wouldn't have mattered. The last time the Luftwaffe amassed enough Aircraft, Pilots, Gas and Weapons, they attacked air bases in France. They lost almost all of their AC, Pilots, gas and weapons to a more experienced group of flyers. That was the last time they could even conceive of such action. And that was in 1944.

The Luftwaffe had something like 352 Experten Pilots. Most of them were lost.

I think only 85 are classified as "Experten" based on the requirement to have 100 kills or more, though the reality is there was no set criteria during the war itself. The majority of them survived the war.

The list showed 352. Had most of them survived there is a good chance that they would have stopped the bombers cold. You are either cherry picking and leaving out the rest of the info or you are just plain lying.

Maybe the Moderator should get a handle on your ass. Oh, that's right, we don't have much of one around here, do we.

 

[westwall]

Gliders don't get you nearly ready for a high powered fighter. There is only two ways to get good at a high speed fighter. 1. Fly a lot of hours in training. 2. Survive enough flights to get good enough. From about the first part of 1944 and on, the Germans lost a tremendous amount of fighter pilots. They had the AC but not enough butts to sit in those seats. Even if they had enough gas, it wouldn't have mattered. The last time the Luftwaffe amassed enough Aircraft, Pilots, Gas and Weapons, they attacked air bases in France. They lost almost all of their AC, Pilots, gas and weapons to a more experienced group of flyers. That was the last time they could even conceive of such action. And that was in 1944.

The Luftwaffe had something like 352 Experten Pilots. Most of them were lost.

I think only 85 are classified as "Experten" based on the requirement to have 100 kills or more, though the reality is there was no set criteria during the war itself. The majority of them survived the war.

The list showed 352. Had most of them survived there is a good chance that they would have stopped the bombers cold. You are either cherry picking and leaving out the rest of the info or you are just plain lying.

Maybe the Moderator should get a handle on your ass. Oh, that's right, we don't have much of one around here, do we.

Yes, it did. But that list has guys with only five kills to their name. Hardly an Experten. The list was put together by an unknown. I am going by the generally accepted criteria of 100 kills. And of those there are 85.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Toughest P-47

Sexiest P-51

Most versatile P-38

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Gliders don't get you nearly ready for a high powered fighter. There is only two ways to get good at a high speed fighter. 1. Fly a lot of hours in training. 2. Survive enough flights to get good enough. From about the first part of 1944 and on, the Germans lost a tremendous amount of fighter pilots. They had the AC but not enough butts to sit in those seats. Even if they had enough gas, it wouldn't have mattered. The last time the Luftwaffe amassed enough Aircraft, Pilots, Gas and Weapons, they attacked air bases in France. They lost almost all of their AC, Pilots, gas and weapons to a more experienced group of flyers. That was the last time they could even conceive of such action. And that was in 1944.

The Luftwaffe had something like 352 Experten Pilots. Most of them were lost.

I think only 85 are classified as "Experten" based on the requirement to have 100 kills or more, though the reality is there was no set criteria during the war itself. The majority of them survived the war.

The list showed 352. Had most of them survived there is a good chance that they would have stopped the bombers cold. You are either cherry picking and leaving out the rest of the info or you are just plain lying.

Maybe the Moderator should get a handle on your ass. Oh, that's right, we don't have much of one around here, do we.

Yes, it did. But that list has guys with only five kills to their name. Hardly an Experten. The list was put together by an unknown. I am going by the generally accepted criteria of 100 kills. And of those there are 85.

Aren't those movable goal posts sexy.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Toughest P-47

Sexiest P-51

Most versatile P-38

I have to agree with that. The Best depends on the job at the time.

 

[westwall]

Gliders don't get you nearly ready for a high powered fighter. There is only two ways to get good at a high speed fighter. 1. Fly a lot of hours in training. 2. Survive enough flights to get good enough. From about the first part of 1944 and on, the Germans lost a tremendous amount of fighter pilots. They had the AC but not enough butts to sit in those seats. Even if they had enough gas, it wouldn't have mattered. The last time the Luftwaffe amassed enough Aircraft, Pilots, Gas and Weapons, they attacked air bases in France. They lost almost all of their AC, Pilots, gas and weapons to a more experienced group of flyers. That was the last time they could even conceive of such action. And that was in 1944.

The Luftwaffe had something like 352 Experten Pilots. Most of them were lost.

I think only 85 are classified as "Experten" based on the requirement to have 100 kills or more, though the reality is there was no set criteria during the war itself. The majority of them survived the war.

The list showed 352. Had most of them survived there is a good chance that they would have stopped the bombers cold. You are either cherry picking and leaving out the rest of the info or you are just plain lying.

Maybe the Moderator should get a handle on your ass. Oh, that's right, we don't have much of one around here, do we.

Yes, it did. But that list has guys with only five kills to their name. Hardly an Experten. The list was put together by an unknown. I am going by the generally accepted criteria of 100 kills. And of those there are 85.

Aren't those movable goal posts sexy.

You're the person claiming an ace with five kills is an Experten. Not me, nor do the Experten I have known personally. There are no goalposts being moved. How about you argue the facts instead of trying to pick a fight with me.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Gliders don't get you nearly ready for a high powered fighter. There is only two ways to get good at a high speed fighter. 1. Fly a lot of hours in training. 2. Survive enough flights to get good enough. From about the first part of 1944 and on, the Germans lost a tremendous amount of fighter pilots. They had the AC but not enough butts to sit in those seats. Even if they had enough gas, it wouldn't have mattered. The last time the Luftwaffe amassed enough Aircraft, Pilots, Gas and Weapons, they attacked air bases in France. They lost almost all of their AC, Pilots, gas and weapons to a more experienced group of flyers. That was the last time they could even conceive of such action. And that was in 1944.

The Luftwaffe had something like 352 Experten Pilots. Most of them were lost.

I think only 85 are classified as "Experten" based on the requirement to have 100 kills or more, though the reality is there was no set criteria during the war itself. The majority of them survived the war.

The list showed 352. Had most of them survived there is a good chance that they would have stopped the bombers cold. You are either cherry picking and leaving out the rest of the info or you are just plain lying.

Maybe the Moderator should get a handle on your ass. Oh, that's right, we don't have much of one around here, do we.

Yes, it did. But that list has guys with only five kills to their name. Hardly an Experten. The list was put together by an unknown. I am going by the generally accepted criteria of 100 kills. And of those there are 85.

Aren't those movable goal posts sexy.

You're the person claiming an ace with five kills is an Experten. Not me, nor do the Experten I have known personally. There are no goalposts being moved. How about you argue the facts instead of trying to pick a fight with me.

My, how tacky can one get. But I see for the last month you have been behaving yourself so I guess I can cut you a little slack. And, no, I ain't too smart either. Just smart enough.

Good to see you killed another string.