Comparing the Best of the Allied Fighters with the Best of the Luftwaffe

[Vrenn]

Would help to define what you mean , in terms of quantification of attributes and qualities, that determine what is "Best".
I can think of a matrix of about a dozen items to score on, say on a one to ten scale, ranging through performance to weapons to costs, etc. that would provide a total score for each aircraft type.

I'll provide my example of such shortly, but for now this looks like a relative spitting/pissing into the wind contest with little real context or usability.

IMO!

And I hope that fence you are pissing on become an electric fence. So get busy and stop pissing on the fence and get your ideas typed.

 

[Stryder50]

And I hope that fence you are pissing on become an electric fence. So get busy and stop pissing on the fence and get your ideas typed.

I do have a real world life I need to attend to. This the season of garden, yard, etc. ....
Hang on there Charlie .....

 

[Zincwarrior]

It wasn't that the fighter won the war. But the Fighters helped to get the Bombers to their targets and destroyed Germanies Military Industry. That ball bearing factory doesn't sound too important until you realize that all tanks, armor, artillery, aircraft uses ball bearings. And it allowed the ground forces to close in on Germany. To give you an idea, the Soviet Union begged the Allies to do daylight bombing in 1942 because they were having their asses handed to them by Germany.

I would argue the long distance bombing campaign's unsung major benefit for the massive cost in lives, was effectively suppressing the Luftwaffe fighters for DDay and thinning the defenses available against Soviets.

Additionally I would argue the double wasp was a better engine than the p 47 was a plane given its superior use in the cats, and corsair.

 

[Vrenn]

I would argue the long distance bombing campaign's unsung major benefit for the massive cost in lives, was effectively suppressing the Luftwaffe fighters for DDay and thinning the defenses available against Soviets.

In Dec 1943, they released the fighters so they could fly above and ahead of bombers. Before then, they flew at the same speed just above the bombers. Since the fighters were done in relay (the Spit starts the relay just over the English Channel, the P-47D picks them up to just over the German border, the P-38 would take them into the heart where the P-51D would be waiting. This allowed the P-47 and the P-38 to do ground attacks on enemy runways with the P-51D could join in after they handed the bombers off. The Fighter Sweep was what should have been done starting in late 1942 but the Bomber Mafia wouldn't allow it. By the time D-Day came out, much of the 109s and 190s were destroyed and only a handful of 262s were able to fly, Most fighters were lost by Germany after that on the ground. There were more than 1000 262s sitting on the ground and were destroyed due to strafing. They couldn't get either the Gas or the Pilots to support more than a couple of hundred.

Additionally I would argue the double wasp was a better engine than the p 47 was a plane given its superior use in the cats, and corsair.

Same engine but different supercharger. For most of the war, the P-47 used the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-59 18-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engine, 2,000 hp (1,500 kW) but was upgraded to a 2200 hp model late in the war.

The Cat used the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-10W Double Wasp 18-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engine, 2,200 hp (1,600 kW) with a two-speed two-stage supercharger and water injection.

Meanwhile, the F-4U-4 had a number of engines. But the last one was Pratt & Whitney R-2800-18W radial engine, 2,380 hp (1,770 kW) The extra 120HP meant it was about 20 mph faster than the 47 while the F6F top speed was below 400 mph.

What's crazy is, both the F-4U and the P-47d had about half the combat range of the F6F. It was never used as a bomber escort in the ETO but was more than up to the task with a combat range of 946 miles.

 

[Grau]

For short spurts. If almost every allied fighter (Including British) caught it flying below 400 mph then it couldn't accelerate fast enough to avoid being destroyed. It rarely flew over 500 mph except for a combat closing on a bomber.



It Germany handn't started the war, they would have had the metals to make a jim dandy bird. Instead, as the war dragged on, the materials to make a world class engine went down the tubes and they had to use inferior metals on the turbines.




Funny, two Germans were attributed to inventing the concept of the swept wing in 1935 yet in 1934 and American presented pretty much the same thing.


We all forget Robert T Jones and give credit to the Germans. And I question if the Germans came up with the original idea for the jet engine at all. For the centrifugal jet engine I would give that to Frank Whittle (1928. So you now will counter with the axial flow. Okay, but in 1937, German Scientists were given a tour of Lockheed who had the proposed Axial Flow engine on display. I propose that Germany stole both engines and called it their own inventions.

Back to the swept wing. Most gives the Germans credit for the swept wing in 1935 yet in 1912, Burgess-Dunne tailless biplane was already flying. And let's not forget the Russians in the middle 1930s and the Italians as early as 1922. These weren't just concepts, they were fully functional flying aircraft.

In some ways, war accelerated the aircraft but in other ways it stifled some. In the Burgess-Dunne case, they first flew theirs in 1912 but was gearing up for mass production in 1913 to release the new models in 1914. And well all know what happened in 1914. Then WWII put a damper on the Lockheed Axial Flow because the DOW forced them to just make more P-38s and Cargo Planes because they thought the axial flow was a silly idea.

I keep seeing Germany making claims for the jet engines, swept wings and a host of other things when all they really did was put someone elses invention into an application out of desperation.

Well, you're right about one thing:

"We all forget Robert T Jones...."

However, the only country from whom other countries stole / kidnapped scientists was Germany.

Why do you have such an obvious anti German bias?


Once again, other sources disagree with your opinion.

"6 things the US stole from the Nazis during WWII"
www.businessinsider.com/6-things-us-stole-from-germans-during-wwii-2015-5

EXCERPT "The Germans in World War II were at the forefront of industrialized warfare.

They produced the first jet-powered bomber, developed the first tilt-rotor plane, and discovered fission. In most cases, Allied scientists and planners struggled to close the technological gaps exposed by German advances.

When possible though, they just stole everything they could find and called it a day."CONTINUED

 

[Vrenn]

Well, you're right about one thing:

"We all forget Robert T Jones...."

However, the only country from whom other countries stole / kidnapped scientists was Germany.

Why do you have such an obvious anti German bias?


Once again, other sources disagree with your opinion.

"6 things the US stole from the Nazis during WWII"
www.businessinsider.com/6-things-us-stole-from-germans-during-wwii-2015-5

EXCERPT "The Germans in World War II were at the forefront of industrialized warfare.

They produced the first jet-powered bomber, developed the first tilt-rotor plane, and discovered fission. In most cases, Allied scientists and planners struggled to close the technological gaps exposed by German advances.

When possible though, they just stole everything they could find and called it a day."CONTINUED

They spent the time making things from others ideas and then calling them their own.

The tilt rotor was patented by a couple of Frenchmen in 1905. George Lehberger.

But I guess everyone else was busy winning while Germany was busy losing in style.


Funny, Goddard had a liquid fueled rocket in 1926. And his used a gyro that the germans stole him blind on. Von Brawn stole him blind. The only difference was Goddard didn't get any heavy finacial backing and Von Brawn got Federalized backing.

 

[AZrailwhale]

If you are over Berlin and have used 2/3rds of your internal fuel, you aren't going to make it home without buying a boat. The P-47N had over 800 miles on internal fuel and would probably just barely make it back. But if you do experience combat on the way back, even the P-47 isn't going to make it home so the used them to the edge of edge of the German France Border so they knew they could do combat and get home. But P-47N and M were a non issue because by the time they came out, all types (both British and US) were transfering a lot of their fighters to France where the Spits and Hurricanes had the range by launching in France.

After D-Day, things changed fast for using fighters. And remember, the ME262 was introduced during that time as well. Germany had already lost the war and it meant that no matter how good the 262 was, it was being lost in an alarming rate. Plus, Germany had problems making the special fuels it had to run.

It wasn't that the fighter won the war. But the Fighters helped to get the Bombers to their targets and destroyed Germanies Military Industry. That ball bearing factory doesn't sound too important until you realize that all tanks, armor, artillery, aircraft uses ball bearings. And it allowed the ground forces to close in on Germany. To give you an idea, the Soviet Union begged the Allies to do daylight bombing in 1942 because they were having their asses handed to them by Germany.

American fighters over Berlin had used NONE of their internal fuel. That's what the drop tanks were for. Their combat range was predicated upon using the drop tanks to get to the target, an allowance for combat and the remainder for the return flight with a half hour or so cushion for bad weather or to divert from closed airfields. Fighter pilots watched their fuel closely during combat knowing just how much they could allow for combat before having to break off to go home. ALL fighter pilots did this, the Japanese, Germans, British and Russians, not just the Americans. That's why the Me-109s had less than ten minutes of combat over Great Britain during the Battle of Britain despite being less than a hundred miles from their home air fields And the Zeros the same over Darwin.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Would help to define what you mean , in terms of quantification of attributes and qualities, that determine what is "Best".
I can think of a matrix of about a dozen items to score on, say on a one to ten scale, ranging through performance to weapons to costs, etc. that would provide a total score for each aircraft type.

I'll provide my example of such shortly, but for now this looks like a relative spitting/pissing into the wind contest with little real context or usability.

IMO!

Best gets really complicated. I'd say
Best interceptor in 1940- Spitfire
Best interceptor in 1943- Me-109G
Best interceptor in 1945 Kawasaki Ki-100
Best escort fighter in 1943- P-38G (with anti-compressibility flaps)
Best Escort fighter in 1944- P-51D/P-38L
Best escort fighter in 1945- P-51K/P-47N/P-38L
Best carrier fighter in 1942- A6M Zero
Best carrier fighter in 1944- F6F
Best carrier fighter in 1945- F6F
Best carrier fighter in 1946- F6F/F4U4/F7F
Best carrier interceptor 1946- F8F/Seafire F Mk 46/47
Best ground attack fighter in 1941- P-39
Best ground attack fighter in 1943- Fw-190
Best ground attack fighter in 1944- P-47/Tornado
Where I put slashes, I find it a toss up among the mentioned aircraft. I didn't add in the Me-262 or Me-163 because of the small numbers committed to combat and their inherent flaws that detracted form their combat performance

 

[AZrailwhale]

I would argue the long distance bombing campaign's unsung major benefit for the massive cost in lives, was effectively suppressing the Luftwaffe fighters for DDay and thinning the defenses available against Soviets.

Additionally I would argue the double wasp was a better engine than the p 47 was a plane given its superior use in the cats, and corsair.

The Thunderbolt was a great plane, it was nearly undefeatable when used in its proper performance window, meaning high altitude. Neither the Hellcat or Corsair could match it there, but they eclipsed it at medium altitude which is where they were designed to shine. Oddly enough, the P-47 was initially designed as a light weight fighter. It's odd how all teh Americn Air Force fighters morphed into theings they wer never designed for. The P-38 was designed as a short ranged, fast climbing interceptor like the Spitfire/Me-109 and it turned into a long range escort, both the P-39 and P-40s were designed as medium to low-level interceptors and general fighters and morphed into low level fighters and ground attack machines in the case of the P-39, the P-51 was designed as a low level army cooperation, ground attack aircraft like the P-40, and as I said the P-47 was designed as a lightweight fighter.

 

[whitehall]

The best quote I ever heard about the space race was that it was a competition between Russia’s German scientists and our’s.

Nazi Germany had the potential but the system was based on the single opinion of a psychopath. America was led by a dying corrupt administration but Americans were independent of stupid administrations and capitalism created the greatest military/industrial power in world history.

 

[Vrenn]

Best gets really complicated. I'd say
Best interceptor in 1940- Spitfire
Best interceptor in 1943- Me-109G
Best interceptor in 1945 Kawasaki Ki-100
Best escort fighter in 1943- P-38G (with anti-compressibility flaps)

The Dive Flaps for the Gs were onboard a C-54 that the British mistook for a German 200 in late 1943. It wasn't until early 1944 that a second shipment was sent and installed on the Gs. It wasn't until early 1944 that the dive flaps were put out at the factory on the P-38J-25.

Best Escort fighter in 1944- P-51D/P-38L
Best escort fighter in 1945- P-51K/P-47N/P-38L
Best carrier fighter in 1942- A6M Zero
Best carrier fighter in 1944- F6F
Best carrier fighter in 1945- F6F
Best carrier fighter in 1946- F6F/F4U4/F7F
Best carrier interceptor 1946- F8F/Seafire F Mk 46/47

Sorry but the F8F came out too late to see combat.

Best ground attack fighter in 1941- P-39
Best ground attack fighter in 1943- Fw-190
Best ground attack fighter in 1944- P-47/Tornado
Where I put slashes, I find it a toss up among the mentioned aircraft. I didn't add in the Me-262 or Me-163 because of the small numbers committed to combat and their inherent flaws that detracted form their combat performance

 

[AZrailwhale]

The Dive Flaps for the Gs were onboard a C-54 that the British mistook for a German 200 in late 1943. It wasn't until early 1944 that a second shipment was sent and installed on the Gs. It wasn't until early 1944 that the dive flaps were put out at the factory on the P-38J-25.


Sorry but the F8F came out too late to see combat.

That’s why I said 1946, the F 47 was too late to see combat as well.

 

[Vrenn]

That’s why I said 1946, the F 47 was too late to see combat as well.

You confused me with your F 47 comment. Until I reread it. And the F 46 definitely saw combat. I intentionally left out the P-80 although it was flying sorties (quietly) in Italy. Funny how the Arado 234 stopped flying over Italy hours before the P-80 showed up.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

No mention of the mosquito

 

[Vrenn]

No mention of the mosquito

Because the Mossie really wasn't a fighter. The closest fighter to compare with the Mossie would have been the P-38 which would make the mossie pack a lunch and then eat it as the mossie was going down. The Mossie was well armed but so was the B-25J in the Pto.

 

[AZrailwhale]

You confused me with your F 47 comment. Until I reread it. And the F 46 definitely saw combat. I intentionally left out the P-80 although it was flying sorties (quietly) in Italy. Funny how the Arado 234 stopped flying over Italy hours before the P-80 showed up.

The FAA didn’t accept the Seafire F Mk 47 until after the war.

The P-80 was superior to the Me-262 in every way but it never made contact with any enemy aircraft in Italy as far as I know.

 

[AZrailwhale]

No mention of the mosquito

The Mosquito wasn’t a fighter. At best it was a fighter bomber, I left the Me-410 and Dinah off the list as well.

 

[AZrailwhale]

The Mosquito wasn’t a fighter. At best it was a fighter bomber, I left the Me-410 and Dinah off the list as well.

If I had been adding night fighters to the list, the Mossie would have been there as would the He-219 and P-61

 

[Vrenn]

The FAA didn’t accept the Seafire F Mk 47 until after the war.

The P-80 was superior to the Me-262 in every way but it never made contact with any enemy aircraft in Italy as far as I know.

Actually the 262 was 20 mph faster once it spooled up but in all other areas it was inferior.
The XP-80 and P-80A was introuduced before the ETO ended. And it was ill suited for the Pto due to the lack of range.

Funny how the P-80C ended up making over 600 mph

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

Because the Mossie really wasn't a fighter. The closest fighter to compare with the Mossie would have been the P-38 which would make the mossie pack a lunch and then eat it as the mossie was going down. The Mossie was well armed but so was the B-25J in the Pto.

Its was a fighter ...day or night... long range reconnaissance and bombing..
Multi roll wooden marauder
It was genius