ME109K Fighter

[AZrailwhale]

Oh, that was the norm at the beginning. Between the fighter escort, and the bomber forces, not to mention the diversions raids.

Also a lot of the bombers early on were Ju-87s, Ju-88s and He-111s. Easy kills for fighters. Oddly enough, the Do-17s took the lightest losses of the twin engined bombers in the BoB despite its very light armament. That is likely because of the four Luftwaffe bombers, it was the only one with radial engines so the RAF fighters weak guns couldn’t damage them enough to cause engine failures. One hit to a cooling system would doom any of the three other bombers.

 

[Vrenn]

Read any book on the BoB.

so, you don't have researchable cite.

 

[westwall]

Also a lot of the bombers early on were Ju-87s, Ju-88s and He-111s. Easy kills for fighters. Oddly enough, the Do-17s took the lightest losses of the twin engined bombers in the BoB despite its very light armament. That is likely because of the four Luftwaffe bombers, it was the only one with radial engines so the RAF fighters weak guns couldn’t damage them enough to cause engine failures. One hit to a cooling system would doom any of the three other bombers.

The JU-88 was never an easy kill, neither was the He111. The .30 cal bullets had lots of empty space to hit.

The 87 was definitely vulnerable though.

The 17Z had the advantage of being a small target, and having exceptional maneuverability at low altitude.

 

[westwall]

so, you don't have researchable cite.

Dowding's Eagles, and The Battle of Britain, both by Franks are quite good.

 

[Vrenn]

Wrong, here is a cite : "

90%​

During the Battle of Britain, the interception rates of the Royal Air Force (RAF) were over 90%123. This was due to the Dowding system, which allowed the RAF to maintain such high rates of successful interceptions. In contrast, during the preceding Battle of France, the RAF's interception rates were typically around 30%" "The Dowding system is considered key to the success of the RAF against the German air force (Luftwaffe) during the Battle of Britain. The combination of early detection and rapid dissemination of that information acted as a force multiplier, allowing the fighter force to be used at extremely high rates of effectiveness. In the pre-war period, interception rates of 30% to 50% were considered excellent; that meant that over half the sorties sent out would return without having encountered the enemy. During the Battle, average rates were around 90%, and several raids were met with 100% success rates.<a href="Dowding system - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a> Lacking their own direction system, Luftwaffe fighters had little information on the location of their RAF counterparts, and often returned to base having never seen them. When they did, the RAF fighters were almost always in an advantageous position." That is from Wikki, but if you look there are numerous articles that agree with those numbers.

Thank you for the cite.

 

[Vrenn]

Dowding's Eagles, and The Battle of Britain, both by Franks are quite good.

Someone already gave a cite and it proves you wrong.

 

[westwall]

Someone already gave a cite and it proves you wrong.

No, they haven't. They quoted wiki, wiki isn't credible.

You afraid to read an actual book?

 

[Vrenn]

No, they haven't. They quoted wiki, wiki isn't credible.

You afraid to read an actual book?

Here, let me give you a cite that clearly says you of full of it? You Magats make crap up, get caught in the lie, won't admit you are wrong and start attacking the people that bagged you. Well, cupcake, here is another cite.

Controlling the Battle of Britain: the Dowding System explained​

 

[AZrailwhale]

The JU-88 was never an easy kill, neither was the He111. The .30 cal bullets had lots of empty space to hit.

The 87 was definitely vulnerable though.

The 17Z had the advantage of being a small target, and having exceptional maneuverability at low altitude.

If you look at photos of shot down He-111s and especially Ju-88s, the cockpit areas look like colanders. Unlike WAllied aircraft the entire crew was crammed into a space the area of a small walk-in closet. Plus, all German bombers operated with a single pilot like the RAF, instead of a pilot and co-pilot like the American and Japanese bombers did. I don't know how the Regia Aeronautica operated. Kill or wound the pilot and the plane is going down.

No matter how much empty space there is in a airframe, when you cram the crew into a very small space it is vulnerable to rifle caliber machine guns.

 

[AZrailwhale]

No, they haven't. They quoted wiki, wiki isn't credible.

You afraid to read an actual book?

Wikki is just a quick source, there many others. I never use Wikki as a primary source, it's just usually concise and easy to copy.

 

[westwall]

If you look at photos of shot down He-111s and especially Ju-88s, the cockpit areas look like colanders. Unlike WAllied aircraft the entire crew was crammed into a space the area of a small walk-in closet. Plus, all German bombers operated with a single pilot like the RAF, instead of a pilot and co-pilot like the American and Japanese bombers did. I don't know how the Regia Aeronautica operated. Kill or wound the pilot and the plane is going down.
View attachment 1089779
No matter how much empty space there is in a airframe, when you cram the crew into a very small space it is vulnerable to rifle caliber machine guns.

Yes, but hitting the pilot is much easier said than done. Take a look at the pilot reports, over and over and over again you read where they pour fire into the bombers only to watch them fly blissfully away.

Why do you think the pilots were screaming so loudly for 20mm Cannon fir their fighters?

The Me109 had at least one, and usually two, along with their 8mm ma's.

Guess which weapon was the effective one....

 

[AZrailwhale]

That’s because rifle caliber machine guns were worthless at shooting down modern aircraft. Fifty caliber and above were needed. Weapons that would crack an engine block, or penetrate any level of armor that a normal fighter or bomber could carry.

 

[westwall]

That’s because rifle caliber machine guns were worthless at shooting down modern aircraft. Fifty caliber and above were needed. Weapons that would crack an engine block, or penetrate any level of armor that a normal fighter or bomber could carry.

Correct. That's why the BoB was such a close run fight.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Correct. That's why the BoB was such a close run fight.

I wouldn’t call the BoB a close run fight. It was a battle of attrition the Luftwaffe couldn’t win. The German aircraft companies were operating at peacetime levels, the Germans were still training at a peacetime pace while the British were cranking out more airframes every day and unlike the Luftwaffe, an RAF pilot who was uninjured in a shoot-down was back in the air in a new airframe within hours or a day at most. Every Luftwaffe pilot shot down over Britain and most shot down over the Channel were gone forever. Plus the RAF had a deep pool of pilots in Bomber Command to draw replacement pilots from. The Luftwaffe changed to night bombing because it’s leaders saw the handwriting on the wall.

Only bad tactics on the part of Fighter Command made the battle as close as it was. If FC had adopted the finger four when it observed how much superior it was the the three plane vics after the Battle of France the German losses in the BoB would have been far higher. In a vic, only the lead plane could shoot, the other two spent their time flying close formation. In a finger four there were two leads that could shoot and the wingmen flew a far loser formation

 

[westwall]

I wouldn’t call the BoB a close run fight. It was a battle of attrition the Luftwaffe couldn’t win. The German aircraft companies were operating at peacetime levels, the Germans were still training at a peacetime pace while the British were cranking out more airframes every day and unlike the Luftwaffe, an RAF pilot who was uninjured in a shoot-down was back in the air in a new airframe within hours or a day at most. Every Luftwaffe pilot shot down over Britain and most shot down over the Channel were gone forever. Plus the RAF had a deep pool of pilots in Bomber Command to draw replacement pilots from. The Luftwaffe changed to night bombing because it’s leaders saw the handwriting on the wall.

Only bad tactics on the part of Fighter Command made the battle as close as it was. If FC had adopted the finger four when it observed how much superior it was the the three plane vics after the Battle of France the German losses in the BoB would have been far higher. In a vic, only the lead plane could shoot, the other two spent their time flying close formation. In a finger four there were two leads that could shoot and the wingmen flew a far loser formation

The Germans WERE winning up until they switched to bombing the cities.

I understand finger four very well, the RAF didn't use it during the battle, so it's irrelevant.

The RAF didn't adopt it till 1942.

 

[AZrailwhale]

The Germans WERE winning up until they switched to bombing the cities.

I understand finger four very well, the RAF didn't use it during the battle, so it's irrelevant.

The RAF didn't adopt it till 1942.

Correct and kept losing pilots unnecessarily.

 

[westwall]

Correct and kept losing pilots unnecessarily.

Yes, they did. Yet another reason why the Battle of Britain was a near run fight till the Germans shifted away from the airfields.