The Truth about Mormons

[IndependntLogic]

Maybe you should try reading the Book of Mormon instead of getting info from South Park. You might actually learn something then.

No Thanks. It's boring. So the question remains about the origins. Magic decoder plates? Original copy burned? New copy made cuz God got all pissed off?

BTW, we have a several Mormon friends and as a religious group goes, I've never met a nicer bunch of people. I genuinely admire them. Just never really got into the whole "origins" talk with them.

 

[JoeB131]

I'll bet you are physics major too. How would you even pretend to know what Joseph Smith was interested in. By your own admission, your venture into church doctrine was motivated by your anger towards specific members of the church.

30 years later and you still come across as ignorant and bitter.

You are the less-smart person here. Please don't mix us up in your little band of idiots.

Gee, how can I tell what Joseph Smith was interested in?

Hmmm. Marrying 34 women, some as young as 14. Oh, he was doing it so they could get into Heaven, really.

Starting his own private army. (Seriously, the guy road around in a military uniform and styled himself a general.)

Scamming his followers by setting up a fake bank that went bust. Convinced investors they had a lot of money by filling strong-boxes with Sand and putting gold coins on the top.

Demanding absolute fealty from his followers. That's what cults do.

As to not wanting to be told what to do....don't stick your tounge in an electrical outlet (good advice for most...I am sure you will get a charge out of it because you don't want anyone telling you what to do).

This is the religion board....not the politics board and I am more than willing to call you out for the moron that you are.

I think there is a difference between qualified advice and ridiculous advice.

I'll point out the difference.

"Hi, I'm a medical Doctor. I went to school for 8 years to learn how to be a doctor. I think you should moderate on eating your red meat because it will clog your ateries."

"Hi, I'm Joseph Smith. An Angel named Moroni gave me a bunch of gold plates that I won't let anyone see, but he told me that I'm God's messenger. My invisible friend in the sky says you shouldn't eat red meat and let me bang your teenage daughter so she can get into heaven".

Now, which one of those opinions should a rational person take seriously.

Hhhhhhmmmm.....

We were talking health codes here.

You forget your pill again ?

How would you know what Joseph Joseph Smith was interested in when he gave the 89th section of the D&C (the health code) ? That was the subject on the table and you made the claim he was not interested in anyone's health.

Now back it up.

I can't help it if you were too dumb to follow the argument.

Of course, if you had a brain, you wouldn't be a Mormon.

 

[daws101]

Maybe you should try reading the Book of Mormon instead of getting info from South Park. You might actually learn something then.

having grown up mormon...that episode of south park is 100%accurate in telling the story of how Joseph smith created the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints .

 

[Avatar4321]

Maybe you should try reading the Book of Mormon instead of getting info from South Park. You might actually learn something then.

having grown up mormon...that episode of south park is 100%accurate in telling the story of how Joseph smith created the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints .

No. It's a caricature. Which means you are lying. Why youd want to, I don't know.

 

[daws101]

Maybe you should try reading the Book of Mormon instead of getting info from South Park. You might actually learn something then.

having grown up mormon...that episode of south park is 100%accurate in telling the story of how Joseph smith created the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints .

No. It's a caricature. Which means you are lying. Why youd want to, I don't know.

no it means your assuming and your ASSumption is false, the action in the episode are an almost word for word discription of Joesph smith's actions in 1830


Beginning in the early 1820s, Smith said he saw visions, in some of which he said an angel directed him to a buried book of golden plates, inscribed with a Christian history of ancient American civilizations. In 1830, he published as the Book of Mormon what he said was an English translation of these plates and then organized branches of the Church of Christ, saying he had been chosen by God to restore the early Christian church. Church members were later called Latter Day Saints, Saints, or Mormons.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gm6JYFdnD8]South park Mormon - YouTube[/ame]

 

[JoeB131]

Maybe you should try reading the Book of Mormon instead of getting info from South Park. You might actually learn something then.

having grown up mormon...that episode of south park is 100%accurate in telling the story of how Joseph smith created the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints .

No. It's a caricature. Which means you are lying. Why youd want to, I don't know.

Well, what specifically did that episode get wrong?

Not, "Well, they said it in a way that made it seem silly" (really? There's a way you can describe that whole thing where it doesn't sound silly?) but what did they specifically say that was wrong.

 

[daws101]

having grown up mormon...that episode of south park is 100%accurate in telling the story of how Joseph smith created the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints .

No. It's a caricature. Which means you are lying. Why youd want to, I don't know.

Well, what specifically did that episode get wrong?

Not, "Well, they said it in a way that made it seem silly" (really? There's a way you can describe that whole thing where it doesn't sound silly?) but what did they specifically say that was wrong.

this should be good....spin in 5...4..3...2..1...

 

[Avatar4321]

Ill respond to the south park think later when im in the mood for detailing what's wrong with it.

Meanwhile, 10th anniversary of the perpetual education fund. Makes me happy.

The Perpetual Education Fund: A Decade of Changing Lives - LDS Newsroom

 

[Listening]

Gee, how can I tell what Joseph Smith was interested in?

Hmmm. Marrying 34 women, some as young as 14. Oh, he was doing it so they could get into Heaven, really.

Starting his own private army. (Seriously, the guy road around in a military uniform and styled himself a general.)

Scamming his followers by setting up a fake bank that went bust. Convinced investors they had a lot of money by filling strong-boxes with Sand and putting gold coins on the top.

Demanding absolute fealty from his followers. That's what cults do.



I think there is a difference between qualified advice and ridiculous advice.

I'll point out the difference.

"Hi, I'm a medical Doctor. I went to school for 8 years to learn how to be a doctor. I think you should moderate on eating your red meat because it will clog your ateries."

"Hi, I'm Joseph Smith. An Angel named Moroni gave me a bunch of gold plates that I won't let anyone see, but he told me that I'm God's messenger. My invisible friend in the sky says you shouldn't eat red meat and let me bang your teenage daughter so she can get into heaven".

Now, which one of those opinions should a rational person take seriously.

Hhhhhhmmmm.....

We were talking health codes here.

You forget your pill again ?

How would you know what Joseph Joseph Smith was interested in when he gave the 89th section of the D&C (the health code) ? That was the subject on the table and you made the claim he was not interested in anyone's health.

Now back it up.

I can't help it if you were too dumb to follow the argument.

Of course, if you had a brain, you wouldn't be a Mormon.

Tranlation: You can't.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Avatar4321]

Let's start with a few inaccuracies with the South Park episode:

1) It claims Joseph was the only one who ever saw the plates. Which is false.

Introduction 

2) It says that Mormons believe that Israelites are the only ancestors to Native Americans. Also false.

see also the above link

3) It depicts Martin Harris as a simpleton. This isn't the case. It also neglets to mention the time Martin Harris took the translations to New York to have scholars verify the text:

Joseph Smith

Sometime in this month of February, the aforementioned Mr. Martin Harris came to our place, got the characters which I had drawn off the plates, and started with them to the city of New York. For what took place relative to him and the characters, I refer to his own account of the circumstances, as he related them to me after his return, which was as follows:

64 “I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him.

65 “He then said to me, ‘Let me see that certificate.’ I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels, and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, ‘I cannot read a sealed book.’ I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation.”

And interesting experience, not solely because of the prophecy is Isaiah 29. Here we have an experience between Professor Anthon and Martin Harris. Mr. Anthon, of course, offers a different story claiming he told Martin Harris it was a complete fraud to begin with. Ignoring Dr. Mitchell's verification, Martin and the professor are the only two who know what really happened.

I'm more inclined to believe Martin's version. Not because my belief in the Restoration, but simply because of how Martin reacted after the experience. If the encounter happened the way Professor Anthon stated, then Martin's behavior of becoming a solid believer of the Restoration and mortgaging his property to finance the Book of Mormon when Anthon told him it was a fraud makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He already had his wife against him being involved, which is why he was timid about getting involved to begin with. But after this incident he was eagerly supporting the endevour.

Professor Anthon, on the other hand, has motivation to lie. He is worried about his reputation and doesn't want to be associated with Mormonism... which is ironic because im sure that's the only reason anyone has any idea who he is.

4) Concerning the 114 lost pages, they tried to use that as an argument used by the Mormons to prove it was true. No Latter-day Saint would make such a ridiculous argument in an attempt to convert an investigator. Latter-day Saints are taught throughout their lives to share the Gospel. And we are taught to:

a) Testify to the truth that has been revealed to us by the power of the Spirit
b) Encourage investigators to read the Book of Mormon for themselves and test it as Moroni and Alma taught. (See Alma 32 & Moroni 10:3-5)
c) Go to God to find out for yourself.

We do this because we realize that the only way anyone can know for sure whether the Book of Mormon is true is by the Spirit of God. Yes, we can make rational arguments for and against. But rational arguments are meaningless one God reveals Himself through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Im restudying the Brigham Young Manual. So let me quote a couple Statements from Brigham Young making my point:

This people believe in revelation. This people did believe and do believe that the Lord has spoken from the heavens. They did believe and do believe that God has sent angels to proclaim the everlasting Gospel, according to the testimony of John [see Revelation 14:6–7] (DBY, 38).

We often hear it said that the living oracles must be in the Church, in order that the Kingdom of God may be established and prosper on the earth. I will give another version of this sentiment. I say that the living oracles of God, or the Spirit of revelation must be in each and every individual, to know the plan of salvation and keep in the path that leads them to the presence of God (DBY, 38).
It was asked me by a gentleman how I guided the people by revelation. I teach them to live so that the Spirit of revelation may make plain to them their duty day by day that they are able to guide themselves. To get this revelation it is necessary that the people live so that their spirits are as pure and clean as a piece of blank paper that lies on the desk before the [writer], ready to receive any mark the writer may make upon it (DBY, 41).

No earthly argument, no earthly reasoning can open the minds of intelligent beings and show them heavenly things; that can only be done by the Spirit of revelation [see 1 Corinthians 2:9–14] (DBY, 37).

The revelations of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of truth will detect everything, and enable all who possess it to understand truth from error, light from darkness, the things of God from the things not of God. It is the only thing that will enable us to understand the Gospel of the Son of God, the will of God, and how we can be saved. Follow it, and it will lead to God, the Fountain of light, where the gate will be open, and the mind will be enlightened so that we shall see, know and understand things as they are (DBY, 34).

No man can know Jesus the Christ except it be revealed from heaven to him [see 1 Corinthians 12:3] (DBY, 37).

Without revelation direct from heaven, it is impossible for any person to understand fully the plan of salvation (DBY, 38).

Without the revelations of God we know not who we are, whence we came, nor who formed the earth on which we live, move and have our being (DBY, 37).

When the Spirit of revelation from God inspires a man, his mind is opened to behold the beauty, order, and glory of the creation of this earth and its inhabitants, the object of its creation, and the purpose of its Creator in peopling it with his children. He can then clearly understand that our existence here is for the sole purpose of exaltation and restoration to the presence of our Father and God (DBY, 37).

In every part and portion of the revelations of God as given to the children of men, or to any individual in heaven or on earth, to understand them properly, a man needs the Spirit by which they were given—the Spirit that reveals such matters to the understanding, and makes them familiar to the mind (DBY, 39).

But we should all live so that the Spirit of revelation could dictate and write on the heart and tell us what we should do instead of the traditions of our parents and teachers. But to do this we must become like little children; and Jesus says if we do not we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. How simple it is! Live free from envy, malice, wrath, strife, bitter feelings, and evil speaking in our families and about our neighbors and friends and all the inhabitants of the earth, wherever we meet them. Live so that our consciences are free, clean and clear (DBY, 36).

Should you receive a vision or revelation from the Almighty, one that the Lord gave you concerning yourselves, or this people, but which you are not to reveal on account of your not being the proper person, or because it ought not to be known by the people at present, you should shut it up and seal it as close, and lock it as tight as heaven is to you, and make it as secret as the grave. The Lord has no confidence in those who reveal secrets, for he cannot safely reveal himself to such persons (DBY, 40–41).

How do we know that prophets wrote the word of the Lord? By revelation. How do we know that Joseph Smith was called of God to establish his Kingdom upon the earth? By revelation. How do we know that the leaders of this people teach the truth? By revelation (DBY, 38).

How can you know the Latter-day work to be true? You can know it only by the spirit of revelation direct from heaven. What proved this work true to you …? Was it not the spirit of revelation that rested upon you? … You should add to it day by day; you should add as the Lord gives—a little here and a little there, and treasure up truth in your faith and understanding, until you become perfect before the Lord and are prepared to receive the further things of the Kingdom of God (DBY, 36).

(Communication between God and Man)

Or from his statements in Our search for truth and personal testimony:

A man or woman desirous of knowing the truth, upon hearing the Gospel of the Son of God proclaimed in truth and simplicity, should ask the Father, in the name of Jesus, if this is true. If they do not take this course, they try and argue themselves into the belief that they are as honest as any man or woman can be on the face of the earth; but they are not, they are careless as to their own best interests (DBY, 430).

Wait until you have searched and researched and have obtained wisdom to understand what we preach. … If it is the work of God, it will stand [see Acts 5:38–39] (DBY, 435).

It is both the duty and privilege of the Latter-day Saints to know that their religion is true (DBY, 429).

Let every one get a knowledge for himself that this work is true. We do not want you to say that it is true until you know that it is; and if you know it, that knowledge is as good to you as though the Lord came down and told you (DBY, 429).

It is a special privilege and blessing of the holy Gospel to every true believer, to know the truth for himself (DBY, 429).

I do not want men to come to me or my brethren for testimony as to the truth of this work; but let them take the Scriptures of divine truth, and there the path is pointed out to them as plainly as ever a guideboard indicated the right path to the weary traveler. There they are directed to go, not to … any Apostle or Elder in Israel, but to the Father in the name of Jesus, and ask for the information they need. Can they who take this course in honesty and sincerity receive information? Will the Lord turn away from the honest heart seeking the truth? No, he will not; he will prove it to them, by the revelations of his Spirit, the facts in the case. And when the mind is open to the revelations of the Lord it comprehends them quicker and keener than anything that is seen by the natural eye. It is not what we see with our eyes—they may be deceived—but what is revealed by the Lord from heaven that is sure and steadfast, and abides forever (DBY, 429–30).

We must have the testimony of the Lord Jesus to enable us to discern between truth and error, light and darkness, him who is of God, and him who is not of God, and to know how to place everything where it belongs. … There is no other method or process which will actually school a person so that he can become a Saint of God, and prepare him for a celestial glory; he must have within him the testimony of the spirit of the Gospel (DBY, 429).

And:

Men rise up here and say they do know that this is the work of God, that Joseph was a Prophet, that the Book of Mormon is true, that the revelations through Joseph Smith are true, and this is the last dispensation and the fulness of times, wherein God has set his hand to gather Israel for the last time, and redeem and build up Zion. … How do they know this? Persons know and will continue to know and understand many things by the manifestations of the Spirit, that through the organization of the tabernacle it is impossible otherwise to convey. Much of the most important information is alone derived through the power and testimony of the Holy Ghost. … This is the only way you can convey a knowledge of the invisible things of God [see 1 Corinthians 2:9–14; 1 Corinthians 12:3] (DBY, 430).

Nothing short of the Holy Spirit … can prove to you that this is the work of God. Men uninspired of God cannot by their worldly wisdom disprove it, or prevail against it; neither can they by wisdom alone prove it to be true, either to themselves or to others. Their not being able to prevail against it does not prove it to be the Kingdom of God, for there are many theories and systems on the earth, incontrovertible by the wisdom of the world, which are nevertheless false. Nothing less than the power of the Almighty, enlightening the understanding of men, can demonstrate this glorious truth to the human mind (DBY, 430–31).

How are we to know the voice of the Good Shepherd from the voice of a stranger? Can any person answer this question? I can. It is very easy. To every philosopher upon the earth, I say, your eye can be deceived, so can mine; your ear can be deceived, so can mine; the touch of your hand can be deceived, so can mine; but the Spirit of God filling the creature with revelation and the light of eternity, cannot be mistaken—the revelation which comes from God is never mistaken. When an individual, filled with the Spirit of God, declares the truth of heaven, the sheep hear that [see D&C 29:7], the Spirit of the Lord pierces their inmost souls and sinks deep into their hearts; by the testimony of the Holy Ghost light springs up within them, and they see and understand for themselves (DBY, 431).

There is but one witness—one testimony, pertaining to the evidence of the Gospel of the Son of God, and that is the Spirit that he diffused among his disciples. Do his will, and we shall know whether he speaks by the authority of the Father or of himself. Do as he commands us to do, and we shall know of the doctrine, whether it is of God or not [see John 7:16–17]. It is only by the revelations of the Spirit that we can know the things of God (DBY, 431–32).

Be diligent and prayerful. It is your privilege to know for yourself God lives and that He is doing a work in these last days and we are His honored ministers. Live for this knowledge and you will receive it. Remember your prayers and be fervent in spirit (LBY, 245).

My testimony is based upon experience, upon my own experience, in connection with that obtained by observing others. … The heavenly truth commends itself to every person’s judgment and to their faith; and more especially to the sense of those who wish to be honest with themselves, with their God, and with their neighbor. … If persons can receive a little, it proves they may receive more. If they can receive the first and second principles with an upright feeling, they may receive still more (DBY, 433).

My testimony is positive. … I know that the sun shines, I know that I exist and have a being, and I testify that there is a God, and that Jesus Christ lives, and that he is the Savior of the world. Have you been to heaven and learned to the contrary? I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, and that he had many revelations. Who can disprove this testimony? Any one may dispute it, but there is no one in the world who can disprove it. I have had many revelations; I have seen and heard for myself, and know these things are true, and nobody on earth can disprove them. The eye, the ear, the hand, all the senses may be deceived, but the Spirit of God cannot be deceived; and when inspired with that Spirit, the whole man is filled with knowledge, he can see with a spiritual eye, and know that which is beyond the power of man to controvert. What I know concerning God, concerning the earth, concerning government, I have received from the heavens, not alone through my natural ability, and I give God the glory and the praise (DBY, 433).

These principles have hardly been taught solely by Brigham Young. All the Prophets and Apostles have taught these things. My own personal experiences have shown me that this is true as well. It was the Spirit who told me that Joseph Smith was a prophet. When I relied on my own understanding there was reason to doubt. Both sides could make arguments. But I notice there is only ever one side that tells people to not trust them but go to God and find out. I did that. I invite you and any one else who is reading this to do this. Because when the Spirit of the Lord testifies to a man, He cannot honestly deny it. The Spirit overwhelms us with love, glory, power. Even those words, while accurately depicting the experience barely begin to describe it.

I've pointed out a few problems with the episode. I would hardly say that's all of them, but I've made my point. It's a caricature. A pretty good one, even funny to a degree. But it's a caricature. It takes the Restoration out of context. It misrepresents those who are depicted. It was designed to do that. It's not supposed to be 100% accurate. That's precisely why you can't rely on it for knowledge of the truth. It has great entertainment value, but when we are talking about the truth, you'd be a fool to rely on it.

There is only one source of truth in the Universe. And that is God. He reveals the truths about His Gospel and Kingdom. He inspires all the truths of men, religious, philosophical, or scientific. No one has learned anything that God has not revealed to man.

If you want to know the Truth of the Restoration you need to study the Book of Mormon. You need to study the Bible. And the other revelations. You need to read the words of the Prophets and Apostles. And most importantly you need to pray to God the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ and if you do that in humility and sincerity, you will find out for yourself whether it's true or not.

This work is either of God or it's not. And the only one who can give you an answer to that is God.

 

[Avatar4321]

Last one was longer than i expected. I guess I should have more reasonable expectations. Hope you are able to read through it.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Last one was longer than i expected. I guess I should have more reasonable expectations. Hope you are able to read through it.

No I didn't read all that but thanks for sharing so much about your faith with a bunch of strangers. So basically, the SOuth Park thing was pretty darn close. Well okay. I'm good with that. And it doesn't change my opinion about Mormons at all. They are still the nicest group of people I could hope to meet.

 

[JoeB131]

Hhhhhhmmmm.....

We were talking health codes here.

You forget your pill again ?

How would you know what Joseph Joseph Smith was interested in when he gave the 89th section of the D&C (the health code) ? That was the subject on the table and you made the claim he was not interested in anyone's health.

Now back it up.

I can't help it if you were too dumb to follow the argument.

Of course, if you had a brain, you wouldn't be a Mormon.

Tranlation: You can't.

Thanks for playing.

Uh, no, guy, I know exactly what he was interested in by the way he ran his entire cult. Even the most fucked up cult in the world has an occassional good thing or two in it.

But Smith was not a medical doctor, and he wasn't talking to God. Sorry, he wasn't. He just wanted one more thing he could tell people to do, because that's what cults and religions are about- telling people how to run their lives.

 

[JoeB131]

Let's start with a few inaccuracies with the South Park episode:

1) It claims Joseph was the only one who ever saw the plates. Which is false.

Introduction*

2) It says that Mormons believe that Israelites are the only ancestors to Native Americans. Also false.

see also the above link

3) It depicts Martin Harris as a simpleton. This isn't the case. It also neglets to mention the time Martin Harris took the translations to New York to have scholars verify the text:

Okay... Here's the thing.

On the plates. The "witnesses" themselves frequently changed their story about whether they saw plates or not. But let's say they did. Pretty easy to fake plates. the Kinderhook guys did that, and Joseph Smith said those plates were real, too.

On Native Americans- The original BOM said the Lamanites were the ancestors of the Native Americans. They were cursed with dark skin for killing the Nephites. Later versions changed that to "among the ancestors". Nice dodge. But it's all still pretty silly. Where is the archeological evidence.

Final point. Yeah, Martin Smith was a strange bird all around. He left Mormonism, joined about five splinter groups before going to Utah to rejoin the cult. The man was kind of pathetic, but it's usually the pathetic that join cults.

 

[Listening]

I can't help it if you were too dumb to follow the argument.

Of course, if you had a brain, you wouldn't be a Mormon.

Tranlation: You can't.

Thanks for playing.

Uh, no, guy, I know exactly what he was interested in by the way he ran his entire cult. Even the most fucked up cult in the world has an occassional good thing or two in it.

But Smith was not a medical doctor, and he wasn't talking to God. Sorry, he wasn't. He just wanted one more thing he could tell people to do, because that's what cults and religions are about- telling people how to run their lives.

This has to be one of the most pathetic responses I have ever seen from someone.

What makes it even more sad is that you actually think this somehow passes for a rational argument.

You don't know that he wasn't talking to God. That is just a conclusion you have reached. If you were to at least qualify your responses, you might not be considered the board moron.

Nobody in this cult tells me how to run my life. They present the plan and I can either follow the plan or not. When I don't, nobody is at my door to do anything about it.

Your bitterness is stark even compared to others I have seen.

And you debate skills are almost non-existant.

When you can tell me how you know what Joseph Smiths intentions were in a way that demonstrates you have evidence to present instead of bile to spew, we'll talk.

 

[Avatar4321]

Actually, no the witnesses went out of the ways to affirm their testimonies till the day they died. Oliver Cowdery shared his testimony of the Book of Mormon even though it cost him an election to be the governor of Wisconsin. He later returned to his saints and according to David Whitmer died with his testimony on his lips. David Whitmer was no longer involved with the Church but continued affirming his testimony until he died as well. He even went out of his way to call reporters to him to testify to it. Martin Harris likewise affirmed his testimony till the day he died, even though he was separated from the Saints for a while.

I've read some of the correspondence between Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer after they had left the Church. A time where they were not on good terms with Joseph. Yet, these two man reaffirmed that they had seen the plates and talked about things that really make no sense if they were denying their testimony. They had no reason to expect these letters to be read by anyone but each other.

All very interesting men. And that's not including the 8 other witnesses off the top of that.

So what your saying is you think it can be faked. You think that a poor farm boy who was barely able to get by managed to buy enough gold plating for the project, forge metal plates with intricate carvings on it, and then convince an Angel of God to come down and show said plates to the others in an elaborate scheme to decieve the witnesses in such a way that even when they are not talking to you and have every reason to expose the plot or deny what they saw, they will continue to reaffirm their testimony of what they saw. And you think he would do this so he could be mobbed, chased, driven from his home and family multiple times. and ultimately to be murdered after watching his brother brutally murdered.

one of the problems I've always found with the critics version is that it takes much more effort to believe their version than it does to believe Joseph's version. The people involved just dont act in a way that makes the critics version likely.

Oh, and about the Kinderhook plates. There is little evidence Joseph cared one wit about them. His behavior with them was completely different than with the BoA text. But I would hardly expect you to agree. That would require taking an unbiased look at it. Something you aren't willing to do for whatever reason. It really is a shame you should lose out on blessings you would otherwise be eligible to recieve because of your hard heart.

 

[daws101]

let's start with a few inaccuracies with the south park episode:

1) it claims joseph was the only one who ever saw the plates. Which is false.

introduction*

2) it says that mormons believe that israelites are the only ancestors to native americans. Also false.

See also the above link

3) it depicts martin harris as a simpleton. This isn't the case. It also neglets to mention the time martin harris took the translations to new york to have scholars verify the text:

joseph smith

sometime in this month of february, the aforementioned mr. Martin harris came to our place, got the characters which i had drawn off the plates, and started with them to the city of new york. For what took place relative to him and the characters, i refer to his own account of the circumstances, as he related them to me after his return, which was as follows:

64 “i went to the city of new york, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to professor charles anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were egyptian, chaldaic, assyriac, and arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of god had revealed it unto him.

65 “he then said to me, ‘let me see that certificate.’ i accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels, and that if i would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that i was forbidden to bring them. He replied, ‘i cannot read a sealed book.’ i left him and went to dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what professor anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation.”

and interesting experience, not solely because of the prophecy is isaiah 29. Here we have an experience between professor anthon and martin harris. Mr. Anthon, of course, offers a different story claiming he told martin harris it was a complete fraud to begin with. Ignoring dr. Mitchell's verification, martin and the professor are the only two who know what really happened.

I'm more inclined to believe martin's version. Not because my belief in the restoration, but simply because of how martin reacted after the experience. If the encounter happened the way professor anthon stated, then martin's behavior of becoming a solid believer of the restoration and mortgaging his property to finance the book of mormon when anthon told him it was a fraud makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He already had his wife against him being involved, which is why he was timid about getting involved to begin with. But after this incident he was eagerly supporting the endevour.

Professor anthon, on the other hand, has motivation to lie. He is worried about his reputation and doesn't want to be associated with mormonism... Which is ironic because im sure that's the only reason anyone has any idea who he is.

4) concerning the 114 lost pages, they tried to use that as an argument used by the mormons to prove it was true. No latter-day saint would make such a ridiculous argument in an attempt to convert an investigator. Latter-day saints are taught throughout their lives to share the gospel. And we are taught to:

A) testify to the truth that has been revealed to us by the power of the spirit
b) encourage investigators to read the book of mormon for themselves and test it as moroni and alma taught. (see alma 32 & moroni 10:3-5)
c) go to god to find out for yourself.

We do this because we realize that the only way anyone can know for sure whether the book of mormon is true is by the spirit of god. Yes, we can make rational arguments for and against. But rational arguments are meaningless one god reveals himself through the power of the holy ghost.

Im restudying the brigham young manual. So let me quote a couple statements from brigham young making my point:

this people believe in revelation. This people did believe and do believe that the lord has spoken from the heavens. They did believe and do believe that god has sent angels to proclaim the everlasting gospel, according to the testimony of john [see revelation 14:6–7] (dby, 38).

We often hear it said that the living oracles must be in the church, in order that the kingdom of god may be established and prosper on the earth. I will give another version of this sentiment. I say that the living oracles of god, or the spirit of revelation must be in each and every individual, to know the plan of salvation and keep in the path that leads them to the presence of god (dby, 38).
It was asked me by a gentleman how i guided the people by revelation. I teach them to live so that the spirit of revelation may make plain to them their duty day by day that they are able to guide themselves. To get this revelation it is necessary that the people live so that their spirits are as pure and clean as a piece of blank paper that lies on the desk before the [writer], ready to receive any mark the writer may make upon it (dby, 41).

no earthly argument, no earthly reasoning can open the minds of intelligent beings and show them heavenly things; that can only be done by the spirit of revelation [see 1 corinthians 2:9–14] (dby, 37).

The revelations of the lord jesus christ, the spirit of truth will detect everything, and enable all who possess it to understand truth from error, light from darkness, the things of god from the things not of god. It is the only thing that will enable us to understand the gospel of the son of god, the will of god, and how we can be saved. Follow it, and it will lead to god, the fountain of light, where the gate will be open, and the mind will be enlightened so that we shall see, know and understand things as they are (dby, 34).

no man can know jesus the christ except it be revealed from heaven to him [see 1 corinthians 12:3] (dby, 37).

Without revelation direct from heaven, it is impossible for any person to understand fully the plan of salvation (dby, 38).

without the revelations of god we know not who we are, whence we came, nor who formed the earth on which we live, move and have our being (dby, 37).

when the spirit of revelation from god inspires a man, his mind is opened to behold the beauty, order, and glory of the creation of this earth and its inhabitants, the object of its creation, and the purpose of its creator in peopling it with his children. He can then clearly understand that our existence here is for the sole purpose of exaltation and restoration to the presence of our father and god (dby, 37).

In every part and portion of the revelations of god as given to the children of men, or to any individual in heaven or on earth, to understand them properly, a man needs the spirit by which they were given—the spirit that reveals such matters to the understanding, and makes them familiar to the mind (dby, 39).

But we should all live so that the spirit of revelation could dictate and write on the heart and tell us what we should do instead of the traditions of our parents and teachers. But to do this we must become like little children; and jesus says if we do not we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. How simple it is! Live free from envy, malice, wrath, strife, bitter feelings, and evil speaking in our families and about our neighbors and friends and all the inhabitants of the earth, wherever we meet them. Live so that our consciences are free, clean and clear (dby, 36).

Should you receive a vision or revelation from the almighty, one that the lord gave you concerning yourselves, or this people, but which you are not to reveal on account of your not being the proper person, or because it ought not to be known by the people at present, you should shut it up and seal it as close, and lock it as tight as heaven is to you, and make it as secret as the grave. The lord has no confidence in those who reveal secrets, for he cannot safely reveal himself to such persons (dby, 40–41).

How do we know that prophets wrote the word of the lord? By revelation. How do we know that joseph smith was called of god to establish his kingdom upon the earth? By revelation. How do we know that the leaders of this people teach the truth? By revelation (dby, 38).

How can you know the latter-day work to be true? You can know it only by the spirit of revelation direct from heaven. What proved this work true to you …? Was it not the spirit of revelation that rested upon you? … you should add to it day by day; you should add as the lord gives—a little here and a little there, and treasure up truth in your faith and understanding, until you become perfect before the lord and are prepared to receive the further things of the kingdom of god (dby, 36).

(communication between god and man)

or from his statements in our search for truth and personal testimony:

a man or woman desirous of knowing the truth, upon hearing the gospel of the son of god proclaimed in truth and simplicity, should ask the father, in the name of jesus, if this is true. If they do not take this course, they try and argue themselves into the belief that they are as honest as any man or woman can be on the face of the earth; but they are not, they are careless as to their own best interests (dby, 430).

Wait until you have searched and researched and have obtained wisdom to understand what we preach. … if it is the work of god, it will stand [see acts 5:38–39] (dby, 435).

It is both the duty and privilege of the latter-day saints to know that their religion is true (dby, 429).

Let every one get a knowledge for himself that this work is true. We do not want you to say that it is true until you know that it is; and if you know it, that knowledge is as good to you as though the lord came down and told you (dby, 429).

It is a special privilege and blessing of the holy gospel to every true believer, to know the truth for himself (dby, 429).

i do not want men to come to me or my brethren for testimony as to the truth of this work; but let them take the scriptures of divine truth, and there the path is pointed out to them as plainly as ever a guideboard indicated the right path to the weary traveler. There they are directed to go, not to … any apostle or elder in israel, but to the father in the name of jesus, and ask for the information they need. Can they who take this course in honesty and sincerity receive information? Will the lord turn away from the honest heart seeking the truth? No, he will not; he will prove it to them, by the revelations of his spirit, the facts in the case. And when the mind is open to the revelations of the lord it comprehends them quicker and keener than anything that is seen by the natural eye. It is not what we see with our eyes—they may be deceived—but what is revealed by the lord from heaven that is sure and steadfast, and abides forever (dby, 429–30).

We must have the testimony of the lord jesus to enable us to discern between truth and error, light and darkness, him who is of god, and him who is not of god, and to know how to place everything where it belongs. … there is no other method or process which will actually school a person so that he can become a saint of god, and prepare him for a celestial glory; he must have within him the testimony of the spirit of the gospel (dby, 429).

and:

men rise up here and say they do know that this is the work of god, that joseph was a prophet, that the book of mormon is true, that the revelations through joseph smith are true, and this is the last dispensation and the fulness of times, wherein god has set his hand to gather israel for the last time, and redeem and build up zion. … how do they know this? Persons know and will continue to know and understand many things by the manifestations of the spirit, that through the organization of the tabernacle it is impossible otherwise to convey. Much of the most important information is alone derived through the power and testimony of the holy ghost. … this is the only way you can convey a knowledge of the invisible things of god [see 1 corinthians 2:9–14; 1 corinthians 12:3] (dby, 430).

Nothing short of the holy spirit … can prove to you that this is the work of god. Men uninspired of god cannot by their worldly wisdom disprove it, or prevail against it; neither can they by wisdom alone prove it to be true, either to themselves or to others. Their not being able to prevail against it does not prove it to be the kingdom of god, for there are many theories and systems on the earth, incontrovertible by the wisdom of the world, which are nevertheless false. Nothing less than the power of the almighty, enlightening the understanding of men, can demonstrate this glorious truth to the human mind (dby, 430–31).

how are we to know the voice of the good shepherd from the voice of a stranger? Can any person answer this question? I can. It is very easy. To every philosopher upon the earth, i say, your eye can be deceived, so can mine; your ear can be deceived, so can mine; the touch of your hand can be deceived, so can mine; but the spirit of god filling the creature with revelation and the light of eternity, cannot be mistaken—the revelation which comes from god is never mistaken. When an individual, filled with the spirit of god, declares the truth of heaven, the sheep hear that [see d&c 29:7], the spirit of the lord pierces their inmost souls and sinks deep into their hearts; by the testimony of the holy ghost light springs up within them, and they see and understand for themselves (dby, 431).

There is but one witness—one testimony, pertaining to the evidence of the gospel of the son of god, and that is the spirit that he diffused among his disciples. Do his will, and we shall know whether he speaks by the authority of the father or of himself. Do as he commands us to do, and we shall know of the doctrine, whether it is of god or not [see john 7:16–17]. It is only by the revelations of the spirit that we can know the things of god (dby, 431–32).

Be diligent and prayerful. It is your privilege to know for yourself god lives and that he is doing a work in these last days and we are his honored ministers. Live for this knowledge and you will receive it. Remember your prayers and be fervent in spirit (lby, 245).

My testimony is based upon experience, upon my own experience, in connection with that obtained by observing others. … the heavenly truth commends itself to every person’s judgment and to their faith; and more especially to the sense of those who wish to be honest with themselves, with their god, and with their neighbor. … if persons can receive a little, it proves they may receive more. If they can receive the first and second principles with an upright feeling, they may receive still more (dby, 433).

My testimony is positive. … i know that the sun shines, i know that i exist and have a being, and i testify that there is a god, and that jesus christ lives, and that he is the savior of the world. Have you been to heaven and learned to the contrary? I know that joseph smith was a prophet of god, and that he had many revelations. Who can disprove this testimony? Any one may dispute it, but there is no one in the world who can disprove it. I have had many revelations; i have seen and heard for myself, and know these things are true, and nobody on earth can disprove them. The eye, the ear, the hand, all the senses may be deceived, but the spirit of god cannot be deceived; and when inspired with that spirit, the whole man is filled with knowledge, he can see with a spiritual eye, and know that which is beyond the power of man to controvert. What i know concerning god, concerning the earth, concerning government, i have received from the heavens, not alone through my natural ability, and i give god the glory and the praise (dby, 433).

these principles have hardly been taught solely by brigham young. All the prophets and apostles have taught these things. My own personal experiences have shown me that this is true as well. It was the spirit who told me that joseph smith was a prophet. When i relied on my own understanding there was reason to doubt. Both sides could make arguments. But i notice there is only ever one side that tells people to not trust them but go to god and find out. I did that. I invite you and any one else who is reading this to do this. Because when the spirit of the lord testifies to a man, he cannot honestly deny it. The spirit overwhelms us with love, glory, power. Even those words, while accurately depicting the experience barely begin to describe it.

I've pointed out a few problems with the episode. I would hardly say that's all of them, but i've made my point. It's a caricature. A pretty good one, even funny to a degree. But it's a caricature. It takes the restoration out of context. It misrepresents those who are depicted. It was designed to do that. It's not supposed to be 100% accurate. That's precisely why you can't rely on it for knowledge of the truth. It has great entertainment value, but when we are talking about the truth, you'd be a fool to rely on it.

There is only one source of truth in the universe. And that is god. He reveals the truths about his gospel and kingdom. He inspires all the truths of men, religious, philosophical, or scientific. No one has learned anything that god has not revealed to man.

If you want to know the truth of the restoration you need to study the book of mormon. You need to study the bible. And the other revelations. You need to read the words of the prophets and apostles. And most importantly you need to pray to god the father in the name of jesus christ and if you do that in humility and sincerity, you will find out for yourself whether it's true or not.

This work is either of god or it's not. And the only one who can give you an answer to that is god.

a mormon link! Just a touch bias dont you think!

 

[JoeB131]

Just going to fool with this bit of stupidity...

Oh, and about the Kinderhook plates. There is little evidence Joseph cared one wit about them. His behavior with them was completely different than with the BoA text. But I would hardly expect you to agree. That would require taking an unbiased look at it. Something you aren't willing to do for whatever reason. It really is a shame you should lose out on blessings you would otherwise be eligible to recieve because of your hard heart.

That would be the same BoA that was later proven to be a Ptomelic Funerary Scroll, NOT an account of Abraham's time in Egypt.

But here's the thing. A confident of Smith said, ' I have seen 6 brass plates...covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. [Joseph Smith] has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."

And official history quoted Smith as saying-

I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.

I have translated a portion of them and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.

So in short, you have TWO examples of things people have seen that have been verified to have been translated in error by Joseph Smith, who let's not forget, was on God's Fav Five at the time. So you'll have to kind of understand why I doubt that these Golden Plates that no one can produce reallly said what Smith said they said.

 

[JoeB131]

You don't know that he wasn't talking to God. That is just a conclusion you have reached. If you were to at least qualify your responses, you might not be considered the board moron.

Nobody in this cult tells me how to run my life. They present the plan and I can either follow the plan or not. When I don't, nobody is at my door to do anything about it.

.

The fact that you are going batshit crazy because a total stranger is mocking the stupidity tells me you are probably just a step from swigging the kool-aid.

I know he wasn't talking to God because

1) THere is no God. Never was.
2) If he were talking to the omnipotent creator of the universe, he simply wouldn't have gotten so many things wrong.

 

[daws101]

Let's start with a few inaccuracies with the South Park episode:

1Introduction*

2) It says that Mormons believe that Israelites are the only ancestors to Native Americans. Also false.

see also the above link

3) It depicts Martin Harris as a simpleton. This isn't the case. It also neglets to mention the time Martin Harris took the translations to New York to have scholars verify the text:

Joseph Smith

Sometime in this month of February, the aforementioned Mr. Martin Harris came to our place, got the characters which I had drawn off the plates, and started with them to the city of New York. For what took place relative to him and the characters, I refer to his own account of the circumstances, as he related them to me after his return, which was as follows:

64 “I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him.

65 “He then said to me, ‘Let me see that certificate.’ I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels, and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, ‘I cannot read a sealed book.’ I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation.”

And interesting experience, not solely because of the prophecy is Isaiah 29. Here we have an experience between Professor Anthon and Martin Harris. Mr. Anthon, of course, offers a different story claiming he told Martin Harris it was a complete fraud to begin with. Ignoring Dr. Mitchell's verification, Martin and the professor are the only two who know what really happened.

I'm more inclined to believe Martin's version. Not because my belief in the Restoration, but simply because of how Martin reacted after the experience. If the encounter happened the way Professor Anthon stated, then Martin's behavior of becoming a solid believer of the Restoration and mortgaging his property to finance the Book of Mormon when Anthon told him it was a fraud makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He already had his wife against him being involved, which is why he was timid about getting involved to begin with. But after this incident he was eagerly supporting the endevour.

Professor Anthon, on the other hand, has motivation to lie. He is worried about his reputation and doesn't want to be associated with Mormonism... which is ironic because im sure that's the only reason anyone has any idea who he is.

4) Concerning the 114 lost pages, they tried to use that as an argument used by the Mormons to prove it was true. No Latter-day Saint would make such a ridiculous argument in an attempt to convert an investigator. Latter-day Saints are taught throughout their lives to share the Gospel. And we are taught to:

a) Testify to the truth that has been revealed to us by the power of the Spirit
b) Encourage investigators to read the Book of Mormon for themselves and test it as Moroni and Alma taught. (See Alma 32 & Moroni 10:3-5)
c) Go to God to find out for yourself.

We do this because we realize that the only way anyone can know for sure whether the Book of Mormon is true is by the Spirit of God. Yes, we can make rational arguments for and against. But rational arguments are meaningless one God reveals Himself through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Im restudying the Brigham Young Manual. So let me quote a couple Statements from Brigham Young making my point:

This people believe in revelation. This people did believe and do believe that the Lord has spoken from the heavens. They did believe and do believe that God has sent angels to proclaim the everlasting Gospel, according to the testimony of John [see Revelation 14:6–7] (DBY, 38).

We often hear it said that the living oracles must be in the Church, in order that the Kingdom of God may be established and prosper on the earth. I will give another version of this sentiment. I say that the living oracles of God, or the Spirit of revelation must be in each and every individual, to know the plan of salvation and keep in the path that leads them to the presence of God (DBY, 38).
It was asked me by a gentleman how I guided the people by revelation. I teach them to live so that the Spirit of revelation may make plain to them their duty day by day that they are able to guide themselves. To get this revelation it is necessary that the people live so that their spirits are as pure and clean as a piece of blank paper that lies on the desk before the [writer], ready to receive any mark the writer may make upon it (DBY, 41).

No earthly argument, no earthly reasoning can open the minds of intelligent beings and show them heavenly things; that can only be done by the Spirit of revelation [see 1 Corinthians 2:9–14] (DBY, 37).

The revelations of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of truth will detect everything, and enable all who possess it to understand truth from error, light from darkness, the things of God from the things not of God. It is the only thing that will enable us to understand the Gospel of the Son of God, the will of God, and how we can be saved. Follow it, and it will lead to God, the Fountain of light, where the gate will be open, and the mind will be enlightened so that we shall see, know and understand things as they are (DBY, 34).

No man can know Jesus the Christ except it be revealed from heaven to him [see 1 Corinthians 12:3] (DBY, 37).

Without revelation direct from heaven, it is impossible for any person to understand fully the plan of salvation (DBY, 38).

Without the revelations of God we know not who we are, whence we came, nor who formed the earth on which we live, move and have our being (DBY, 37).

When the Spirit of revelation from God inspires a man, his mind is opened to behold the beauty, order, and glory of the creation of this earth and its inhabitants, the object of its creation, and the purpose of its Creator in peopling it with his children. He can then clearly understand that our existence here is for the sole purpose of exaltation and restoration to the presence of our Father and God (DBY, 37).

In every part and portion of the revelations of God as given to the children of men, or to any individual in heaven or on earth, to understand them properly, a man needs the Spirit by which they were given—the Spirit that reveals such matters to the understanding, and makes them familiar to the mind (DBY, 39).

But we should all live so that the Spirit of revelation could dictate and write on the heart and tell us what we should do instead of the traditions of our parents and teachers. But to do this we must become like little children; and Jesus says if we do not we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. How simple it is! Live free from envy, malice, wrath, strife, bitter feelings, and evil speaking in our families and about our neighbors and friends and all the inhabitants of the earth, wherever we meet them. Live so that our consciences are free, clean and clear (DBY, 36).

Should you receive a vision or revelation from the Almighty, one that the Lord gave you concerning yourselves, or this people, but which you are not to reveal on account of your not being the proper person, or because it ought not to be known by the people at present, you should shut it up and seal it as close, and lock it as tight as heaven is to you, and make it as secret as the grave. The Lord has no confidence in those who reveal secrets, for he cannot safely reveal himself to such persons (DBY, 40–41).

How do we know that prophets wrote the word of the Lord? By revelation. How do we know that Joseph Smith was called of God to establish his Kingdom upon the earth? By revelation. How do we know that the leaders of this people teach the truth? By revelation (DBY, 38).

How can you know the Latter-day work to be true? You can know it only by the spirit of revelation direct from heaven. What proved this work true to you …? Was it not the spirit of revelation that rested upon you? … You should add to it day by day; you should add as the Lord gives—a little here and a little there, and treasure up truth in your faith and understanding, until you become perfect before the Lord and are prepared to receive the further things of the Kingdom of God (DBY, 36).

(Communication between God and Man)

Or from his statements in Our search for truth and personal testimony:

A man or woman desirous of knowing the truth, upon hearing the Gospel of the Son of God proclaimed in truth and simplicity, should ask the Father, in the name of Jesus, if this is true. If they do not take this course, they try and argue themselves into the belief that they are as honest as any man or woman can be on the face of the earth; but they are not, they are careless as to their own best interests (DBY, 430).

Wait until you have searched and researched and have obtained wisdom to understand what we preach. … If it is the work of God, it will stand [see Acts 5:38–39] (DBY, 435).

It is both the duty and privilege of the Latter-day Saints to know that their religion is true (DBY, 429).

Let every one get a knowledge for himself that this work is true. We do not want you to say that it is true until you know that it is; and if you know it, that knowledge is as good to you as though the Lord came down and told you (DBY, 429).

It is a special privilege and blessing of the holy Gospel to every true believer, to know the truth for himself (DBY, 429).

I do not want men to come to me or my brethren for testimony as to the truth of this work; but let them take the Scriptures of divine truth, and there the path is pointed out to them as plainly as ever a guideboard indicated the right path to the weary traveler. There they are directed to go, not to … any Apostle or Elder in Israel, but to the Father in the name of Jesus, and ask for the information they need. Can they who take this course in honesty and sincerity receive information? Will the Lord turn away from the honest heart seeking the truth? No, he will not; he will prove it to them, by the revelations of his Spirit, the facts in the case. And when the mind is open to the revelations of the Lord it comprehends them quicker and keener than anything that is seen by the natural eye. It is not what we see with our eyes—they may be deceived—but what is revealed by the Lord from heaven that is sure and steadfast, and abides forever (DBY, 429–30).

We must have the testimony of the Lord Jesus to enable us to discern between truth and error, light and darkness, him who is of God, and him who is not of God, and to know how to place everything where it belongs. … There is no other method or process which will actually school a person so that he can become a Saint of God, and prepare him for a celestial glory; he must have within him the testimony of the spirit of the Gospel (DBY, 429).

And:

Men rise up here and say they do know that this is the work of God, that Joseph was a Prophet, that the Book of Mormon is true, that the revelations through Joseph Smith are true, and this is the last dispensation and the fulness of times, wherein God has set his hand to gather Israel for the last time, and redeem and build up Zion. … How do they know this? Persons know and will continue to know and understand many things by the manifestations of the Spirit, that through the organization of the tabernacle it is impossible otherwise to convey. Much of the most important information is alone derived through the power and testimony of the Holy Ghost. … This is the only way you can convey a knowledge of the invisible things of God [see 1 Corinthians 2:9–14; 1 Corinthians 12:3] (DBY, 430).

Nothing short of the Holy Spirit … can prove to you that this is the work of God. Men uninspired of God cannot by their worldly wisdom disprove it, or prevail against it; neither can they by wisdom alone prove it to be true, either to themselves or to others. Their not being able to prevail against it does not prove it to be the Kingdom of God, for there are many theories and systems on the earth, incontrovertible by the wisdom of the world, which are nevertheless false. Nothing less than the power of the Almighty, enlightening the understanding of men, can demonstrate this glorious truth to the human mind (DBY, 430–31).

How are we to know the voice of the Good Shepherd from the voice of a stranger? Can any person answer this question? I can. It is very easy. To every philosopher upon the earth, I say, your eye can be deceived, so can mine; your ear can be deceived, so can mine; the touch of your hand can be deceived, so can mine; but the Spirit of God filling the creature with revelation and the light of eternity, cannot be mistaken—the revelation which comes from God is never mistaken. When an individual, filled with the Spirit of God, declares the truth of heaven, the sheep hear that [see D&C 29:7], the Spirit of the Lord pierces their inmost souls and sinks deep into their hearts; by the testimony of the Holy Ghost light springs up within them, and they see and understand for themselves (DBY, 431).

There is but one witness—one testimony, pertaining to the evidence of the Gospel of the Son of God, and that is the Spirit that he diffused among his disciples. Do his will, and we shall know whether he speaks by the authority of the Father or of himself. Do as he commands us to do, and we shall know of the doctrine, whether it is of God or not [see John 7:16–17]. It is only by the revelations of the Spirit that we can know the things of God (DBY, 431–32).

Be diligent and prayerful. It is your privilege to know for yourself God lives and that He is doing a work in these last days and we are His honored ministers. Live for this knowledge and you will receive it. Remember your prayers and be fervent in spirit (LBY, 245).

My testimony is based upon experience, upon my own experience, in connection with that obtained by observing others. … The heavenly truth commends itself to every person’s judgment and to their faith; and more especially to the sense of those who wish to be honest with themselves, with their God, and with their neighbor. … If persons can receive a little, it proves they may receive more. If they can receive the first and second principles with an upright feeling, they may receive still more (DBY, 433).

My testimony is positive. … I know that the sun shines, I know that I exist and have a being, and I testify that there is a God, and that Jesus Christ lives, and that he is the Savior of the world. Have you been to heaven and learned to the contrary? I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, and that he had many revelations. Who can disprove this testimony? Any one may dispute it, but there is no one in the world who can disprove it. I have had many revelations; I have seen and heard for myself, and know these things are true, and nobody on earth can disprove them. The eye, the ear, the hand, all the senses may be deceived, but the Spirit of God cannot be deceived; and when inspired with that Spirit, the whole man is filled with knowledge, he can see with a spiritual eye, and know that which is beyond the power of man to controvert. What I know concerning God, concerning the earth, concerning government, I have received from the heavens, not alone through my natural ability, and I give God the glory and the praise (DBY, 433).

These principles have hardly been taught solely by Brigham Young. All the Prophets and Apostles have taught these things. My own personal experiences have shown me that this is true as well. It was the Spirit who told me that Joseph Smith was a prophet. When I relied on my own understanding there was reason to doubt. Both sides could make arguments. But I notice there is only ever one side that tells people to not trust them but go to God and find out. I did that. I invite you and any one else who is reading this to do this. Because when the Spirit of the Lord testifies to a man, He cannot honestly deny it. The Spirit overwhelms us with love, glory, power. Even those words, while accurately depicting the experience barely begin to describe it.

I've pointed out a few problems with the episode. I would hardly say that's all of them, but I've made my point. It's a caricature. A pretty good one, even funny to a degree. But it's a caricature. It takes the Restoration out of context. It misrepresents those who are depicted. It was designed to do that. It's not supposed to be 100% accurate. That's precisely why you can't rely on it for knowledge of the truth. It has great entertainment value, but when we are talking about the truth, you'd be a fool to rely on it.

There is only one source of truth in the Universe. And that is God. He reveals the truths about His Gospel and Kingdom. He inspires all the truths of men, religious, philosophical, or scientific. No one has learned anything that God has not revealed to man.

If you want to know the Truth of the Restoration you need to study the Book of Mormon. You need to study the Bible. And the other revelations. You need to read the words of the Prophets and Apostles. And most importantly you need to pray to God the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ and if you do that in humility and sincerity, you will find out for yourself whether it's true or not.

This work is either of God or it's not. And the only one who can give you an answer to that is God.

) "It claims Joseph was the only one who ever saw the plates. Which is false."-AVATAR
NO IT'S TRUE: ...when questioned closely the witnesses said they never really saw the gold plates except when they were wrapped up or covered. They used terms like “vision” or “I saw them with the eye of faith.” ...Of these eleven total witnesses, over half apostatized from the Mormon church.... Joseph Smith and other Mormon officials are on record as calling his three main witnesses “thieves and liars.” In History of the Church Joseph Smith said, “Such characters as ... David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention, and we would like to have forgotten them.
" It says that Mormons believe that Israelites are the only ancestors to Native Americans. Also false.

WRONG AGAIN:

According to the Book of Mormon, a Lamanite is a member of a dark-skinned nation of indigenous Americans that battled with the light-skinned Nephite nation. Although mainstream archaeologists, geneticists, and historians do not recognize the existence of Lamanites, adherents of the Latter Day Saint movement typically believe that the Lamanites comprise some part, if not the entirety, of the indigenous peoples of the Americas and the Polynesian people.

The Book of Mormon describes the Lamanites as descendants of Laman and Lemuel, two rebellious brothers of a family of Israelites who crossed the ocean in a boat around 600 BC. Their brother Nephi founded the Nephite nation. The Lamanites reputedly gained their dark skin as a sign of the curse for their rebelliousness (the curse itself being the withdrawal of the Spirit of God), and warred with the Nephites over a period of centuries. The book says that Jesus appeared and converted all the Lamanites to Christianity; however, after about two centuries, the Lamanites fell away and eventually exterminated all the Nephites. By the end of the Book of Mormon, the Lamanites were defined less by their skin color than by their lack of Christianity. Many Mormons believe that the Polynesian people originated from the descendents of Hagoth who led his people off on a ship and was never heard from again. Although Hagoth was a Nephite, these Mormons regard Polynesians as Lamanites.

The existence of a Lamanite nation has received no support within mainstream science or archaeology. Genetic studies indicate that the indigenous Americans are primarily from northeast Asia, and the Polynesians are from southeast Asia. This has led many Mormon apologetic scholars to hypothesize that the Lamanites were a small nation that merged with the indigenous population of northeast Asian origin and left no clear traces surviving into the modern world. Within the culture of Mormonism, indigenous Americans and Polynesians are still often called "Lamanites", but the practice is waning.



I grew up mormon ..even at the tender age of seven: this reeeked of bullshit.
thanks wiki.. According to Latter Day Saint belief, the golden plates (also called the gold plates or in some 19th century literature, the golden Bible)[1] are the source from which Joseph Smith, Jr. translated the Book of Mormon, a sacred text of the faith. Some witnesses described the plates as weighing from 30 to 60 pounds,[2] being golden or brassy in color, and being composed of thin metallic pages engraved on both sides and bound with one or more rings.

Smith said he found the plates on September 22, 1823 at a hill near his home in Manchester, New York after an angel directed him to a buried stone box. The angel at first prevented Smith from taking the plates because he had not followed the angel's instructions. In 1827, on his fourth annual attempt to retrieve the plates, Smith returned home with a heavy object wrapped in a frock, which he then put in a box. Though he allowed others to heft the box, he said that the angel had forbidden him to show the plates to anyone until they had been translated from their original "reformed Egyptian" language. Smith dictated a translation using a seer stone in the bottom of a hat, which he placed over his face to view the words written within the stone.[3] Smith published the translation in 1830 as the Book of Mormon.

Smith eventually obtained testimonies from eleven men, known as the Book of Mormon witnesses, who said they had seen the plates.[4] After the translation was complete, Smith said he returned the plates to their angelic guardian. Therefore, if the plates existed, they cannot now be examined. Latter Day Saints believe the account of the golden plates as a matter of faith, while critics often assert that either Smith manufactured the plates himself[5] or that the Book of Mormon witnesses based their testimony on visions rather than physical experience