The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

Spending time on the internet on Sunday is not something the church would look kindly at, unless of course it was for the prepping of a lesson for next week.

tisk tisk.

-TSO

Not true. I don't know why you would say that. Especially if I am instructing in matters of religion. Your statement does not make sense to me at all.

i dont see this as instructing matters of religion...i simply see it as you trying to witness and convert...which i find highly offensive

Whether you are offended or not, I AM instructing, at least in matters of my own religion. What you fail to realize is what I have said all along. I know that I have zero power to convert anyone. I'm not even really witnessing that much. Maybe a little but what am doing is proclaiming the truth about mormons. Whether that's clarifying misconceptions or stating official doctrines.
Fair enough?

 

[TheSuaveOne]

Spending time on the internet on Sunday is not something the church would look kindly at, unless of course it was for the prepping of a lesson for next week.

tisk tisk.

-TSO

Not true. I don't know why you would say that. Especially if I am instructing in matters of religion. Your statement does not make sense to me at all.

Instead of playing around in an internet forum, shouldn't you have been spending the time with your family, or out completing your monthly home teaching assignments? You realize that Sunday is a day of rest and as long as you are using services like the internet, you are in a round about way making others work to make sure your internet connection is in place. It's the same as not going out to eat or to the store on Sunday.

-TSO

 

[strollingbones]

sciencetology

 

[Avatar4321]

Instead of playing around in an internet forum, shouldn't you have been spending the time with your family, or out completing your monthly home teaching assignments? You realize that Sunday is a day of rest and as long as you are using services like the internet, you are in a round about way making others work to make sure your internet connection is in place. It's the same as not going out to eat or to the store on Sunday.

-TSO

I rest by surfing the web and talking with people.

 

[TheSuaveOne]

Instead of playing around in an internet forum, shouldn't you have been spending the time with your family, or out completing your monthly home teaching assignments? You realize that Sunday is a day of rest and as long as you are using services like the internet, you are in a round about way making others work to make sure your internet connection is in place. It's the same as not going out to eat or to the store on Sunday.

-TSO

I rest by surfing the web and talking with people.

That's great, however, I wonder what your Bishop would say? I doubt he would think that was an appropriate action for you to do on a Sunday evening. Are all of your family home teaching assignments completed for the month? Couldn't you be out with the missionaries helping others complete their home teaching assignments? Maybe spending time with your family reading the scriptures?

Just sayin.

-TSO

 

[Neubarth]

Oh and one last question: Can you please explain the mountainous evidence in support of the book of mormon

All I know about the Book of Mormon is that it claims that American Indians were Jews, yet no DNA link exists to support that claim. Supposedly the second wave of Jews came to America on nuclear powered submarines from Viet Nam. Who built those submarines that could travel and stay underwater?
The Cities that these waves of Jewish immigrants built in no way compare to modern archeological sites that have been unearthed. They are physically in the wrong place. I have had Mormons tell me that God caused tremendous cataclysm in the New World just before Columbus arrived and that caused all of the Jewish Indian cities to move hundreds of miles across the landscape of the Americas. That sounds even screwier than the crappola that L Ron Hubbard made up to create the Church of Scientology.

To me it appears that Joseph Smith and L Ron Hubbard were phony to the max.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Instead of playing around in an internet forum, shouldn't you have been spending the time with your family, or out completing your monthly home teaching assignments? You realize that Sunday is a day of rest and as long as you are using services like the internet, you are in a round about way making others work to make sure your internet connection is in place. It's the same as not going out to eat or to the store on Sunday.

-TSO

I rest by surfing the web and talking with people.

That's great, however, I wonder what your Bishop would say? I doubt he would think that was an appropriate action for you to do on a Sunday evening. Are all of your family home teaching assignments completed for the month? Couldn't you be out with the missionaries helping others complete their home teaching assignments? Maybe spending time with your family reading the scriptures?

Just sayin.

-TSO

I'll have you know that I've done all of those things and have not made my brief visits on this forum the priority of my whole life. You CAN find room to do all those things. I make dates to go out with the missionaries as well. My bishop knows about this thread. I haven't heard any general authority speak out on the evils of using the internet on Sunday. I think that's taking it a little too far. Remember "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

So you can keep judging all you want. That's fine.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Oh and one last question: Can you please explain the mountainous evidence in support of the book of mormon

All I know about the Book of Mormon is that it claims that American Indians were Jews, yet no DNA link exists to support that claim. Supposedly the second wave of Jews came to America on nuclear powered submarines from Viet Nam. Who built those submarines that could travel and stay underwater?
The Cities that these waves of Jewish immigrants built in no way compare to modern archeological sites that have been unearthed. They are physically in the wrong place. I have had Mormons tell me that God caused tremendous cataclysm in the New World just before Columbus arrived and that caused all of the Jewish Indian cities to move hundreds of miles across the landscape of the Americas. That sounds even screwier than the crappola that L Ron Hubbard made up to create the Church of Scientology.

To me it appears that Joseph Smith and L Ron Hubbard were phony to the max.

Welcome back Neuby!

Not to backtrack too much but it was over a year ago in the very first post that I dealt with your very same question. I never heard back from you till now so I guess you just hit and run. Please go back and read my answer.

Cheers!

 

[TheSuaveOne]

Because the Sabbath is a holy day, it should be reserved for worthy and holy activities. Abstaining from work and recreation is not enough. In fact, those who merely lounge about doing nothing on the Sabbath fail to keep the day holy. In a revelation given to Joseph Smith in 1831, the Lord commanded: That thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day; for verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High" (D&C 59:9–10). In harmony with this revelation, Church members attend sacrament meeting each week. Other Sabbath-day activities may include praying, meditating, studying the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets, writing letters to family members and friends, reading wholesome material, visiting the sick and distressed, and attending other Church meetings.

link

-TSO

 

[emilynghiem]

For you Jake, these well calculated words do not equate to the ramblings of a delusional man. There is a calmness, an awareness in these words that simply cannot be denied. The truth has a certain ring to it. And it always polarizes people.

He was either a prophet of God, or THE GREATEST con in history. Delusional is not possible.

I would like to clarify a point in the speech which I agree is divinely inspired of God's truth.
The point is not to discredit but to show that each person is limited in perception and audience addressed. And that others can equally add knowledge to and refine the truth so that it is better understood by a different audience.

The point about the only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

QUOTE: "All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

How I understand this is the sin of "unforgiveness."

If you do not forgive, you are not permitting God's will to enter in through Jesus and redeem or correct or bring restitution or restoration of equity to that relationship.
So this is the one thing that we either must do or must ask God's help to do if we cannot.
We must forgive or ask help to forgive, as a way to submit to God's will by our free will.
He cannot force forgiveness on us, it is the one thing that can block healing by the Spirit.

So in context, even though we are not "at fault" for the sins of others like our predecessors, if we do not "forgive" then we repeat and/or create a "new sin."

So in this way the "sins of the forefathers are visited upon the sons to the fourth and fifth generation" not as punishment but in order that we learn to forgive in Christ Jesus to break this cycle of sin and suffering, instead of repeating the past in retribution.
When we choose the path of "restorative justice" over "retributive justice" that is when we choose the way of justice with mercy or Christ Jesus (over abuse of law as the spirit of antichrist or injustice, the opposite spirit of Jesus).

I agree with the general "spirit" of the speaker as true, but I would clarify the meaning so that it reaches or speaks to more people, especially those like me who may relate to secular terms and real life applications before the concepts make sense as universally true.

Thank you for sharing
I believe there are true prophets and witnesses from all tribes, and we just need to put all that diverse knowledge together to see the bigger perspective of God's truth before us.

What is not clear from one angle, can be clarified by another.
So that when we submit "one to another" in Christ Jesus, the truth may be established in the mouths of two or three witnesses. And if any of the people should speak in tongues (even different religious terms) then let a third party "interpret". So this way we may cross-communicate between religious systems and all tongues shall speak to the same truth though in different ways that lend greater insight than just one angle by itself.

Yours truly,
Emily

 

[Avatar4321]

Instead of playing around in an internet forum, shouldn't you have been spending the time with your family, or out completing your monthly home teaching assignments? You realize that Sunday is a day of rest and as long as you are using services like the internet, you are in a round about way making others work to make sure your internet connection is in place. It's the same as not going out to eat or to the store on Sunday.

-TSO

I rest by surfing the web and talking with people.

That's great, however, I wonder what your Bishop would say? I doubt he would think that was an appropriate action for you to do on a Sunday evening. Are all of your family home teaching assignments completed for the month? Couldn't you be out with the missionaries helping others complete their home teaching assignments? Maybe spending time with your family reading the scriptures?

Just sayin.

-TSO

I dont think he is that concerned about it. He doesnt micromanage our lives. He provides guidence and encourages us to get the Spirit ourself.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Because the Sabbath is a holy day, it should be reserved for worthy and holy activities. Abstaining from work and recreation is not enough. In fact, those who merely lounge about doing nothing on the Sabbath fail to keep the day holy. In a revelation given to Joseph Smith in 1831, the Lord commanded: That thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day; for verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High" (D&C 59:9–10). In harmony with this revelation, Church members attend sacrament meeting each week. Other Sabbath-day activities may include praying, meditating, studying the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets, writing letters to family members and friends, reading wholesome material, visiting the sick and distressed, and attending other Church meetings.

link

-TSO

I totally agree with that entire statement. But I don't see how chatting about our faith online on Sunday is in breach of the Sabbath.

 

[Avatar4321]

I would like to clarify a point in the speech which I agree is divinely inspired of God's truth.
The point is not to discredit but to show that each person is limited in perception and audience addressed. And that others can equally add knowledge to and refine the truth so that it is better understood by a different audience.

The point about the only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

QUOTE: "All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

How I understand this is the sin of "unforgiveness."

If you do not forgive, you are not permitting God's will to enter in through Jesus and redeem or correct or bring restitution or restoration of equity to that relationship.
So this is the one thing that we either must do or must ask God's help to do if we cannot.
We must forgive or ask help to forgive, as a way to submit to God's will by our free will.
He cannot force forgiveness on us, it is the one thing that can block healing by the Spirit.

So in context, even though we are not "at fault" for the sins of others like our predecessors, if we do not "forgive" then we repeat and/or create a "new sin."

So in this way the "sins of the forefathers are visited upon the sons to the fourth and fifth generation" not as punishment but in order that we learn to forgive in Christ Jesus to break this cycle of sin and suffering, instead of repeating the past in retribution.
When we choose the path of "restorative justice" over "retributive justice" that is when we choose the way of justice with mercy or Christ Jesus (over abuse of law as the spirit of antichrist or injustice, the opposite spirit of Jesus).

I agree with the general "spirit" of the speaker as true, but I would clarify the meaning so that it reaches or speaks to more people, especially those like me who may relate to secular terms and real life applications before the concepts make sense as universally true.

Thank you for sharing
I believe there are true prophets and witnesses from all tribes, and we just need to put all that diverse knowledge together to see the bigger perspective of God's truth before us.

What is not clear from one angle, can be clarified by another.
So that when we submit "one to another" in Christ Jesus, the truth may be established in the mouths of two or three witnesses. And if any of the people should speak in tongues (even different religious terms) then let a third party "interpret". So this way we may cross-communicate between religious systems and all tongues shall speak to the same truth though in different ways that lend greater insight than just one angle by itself.

Yours truly,
Emily

Please forgive me, but I have no clue what you are talking about. And I have no clue how it's related to the topic here. Could you elaborate or break things down better? because Id really like to have a more indepth conversation here but I just dont understand what point you are trying to make.

 

[Truthspeaker]

For you Jake, these well calculated words do not equate to the ramblings of a delusional man. There is a calmness, an awareness in these words that simply cannot be denied. The truth has a certain ring to it. And it always polarizes people.

He was either a prophet of God, or THE GREATEST con in history. Delusional is not possible.

I would like to clarify a point in the speech which I agree is divinely inspired of God's truth.
The point is not to discredit but to show that each person is limited in perception and audience addressed. And that others can equally add knowledge to and refine the truth so that it is better understood by a different audience.

The point about the only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

QUOTE: "All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

How I understand this is the sin of "unforgiveness."

If you do not forgive, you are not permitting God's will to enter in through Jesus and redeem or correct or bring restitution or restoration of equity to that relationship.
So this is the one thing that we either must do or must ask God's help to do if we cannot.
We must forgive or ask help to forgive, as a way to submit to God's will by our free will.
He cannot force forgiveness on us, it is the one thing that can block healing by the Spirit.

So in context, even though we are not "at fault" for the sins of others like our predecessors, if we do not "forgive" then we repeat and/or create a "new sin."

So in this way the "sins of the forefathers are visited upon the sons to the fourth and fifth generation" not as punishment but in order that we learn to forgive in Christ Jesus to break this cycle of sin and suffering, instead of repeating the past in retribution.
When we choose the path of "restorative justice" over "retributive justice" that is when we choose the way of justice with mercy or Christ Jesus (over abuse of law as the spirit of antichrist or injustice, the opposite spirit of Jesus).

I agree with the general "spirit" of the speaker as true, but I would clarify the meaning so that it reaches or speaks to more people, especially those like me who may relate to secular terms and real life applications before the concepts make sense as universally true.



Yours truly,
Emily

Emily I appreciate your input on this sermon of Joseph's. However I must be official as to the doctrine of the unpardonable sin. The unpardonable sin happens only once and cannot be forgiven. The sin of holding grudges and being an unforgiving person can be overcome by transforming into a forgiving person and abandoning that sin. However this is not what Joseph was speaking of.

The sin he is speaking of is much worse and is the only one from which there is no going back. To sin against the Holy Ghost has been described as "tasting of the goodness of Jesus, abiding by his commandments, seeing his face, knowing for a fact the entire plan of redemption as brought forth by Him. Then turning your back on Jesus, spitting in his face, crucifying him again and denying you ever knew Him, betraying Him and working with Satan to destroy His Church." "To look at the Noonday sun and behold it's brightness and the next moment deny that it shines."

I doubt any of us has ever even met such a person and probably never will. I can't Judge Judas entirely but I don't think his actions are going to go over well on the next side.

 

[JakeStarkey]

But simply let me remind all that traditional and historical Christianity does not interpret the "unpardonable sin" as does the opinion of Mormon theology.

 

[Truthspeaker]

But simply let me remind all that traditional and historical Christianity does not interpret the "unpardonable sin" as does the opinion of Mormon theology.

Of course not, because traditional Christianity does not have any writings in the Bible about the unpardonable sin. We have more revelation on the subject.

 

[JakeStarkey]

But simply let me remind all that traditional and historical Christianity does not interpret the "unpardonable sin" as does the opinion of Mormon theology.

Of course not, because traditional Christianity does not have any writings in the Bible about the unpardonable sin. We have more revelation on the subject.

I agree that you have plenty of opinion and statements. Revelation? No.

 

[emilynghiem]

Emily I appreciate your input on this sermon of Joseph's. However I must be official as to the doctrine of the unpardonable sin. The unpardonable sin happens only once and cannot be forgiven. The sin of holding grudges and being an unforgiving person can be overcome by transforming into a forgiving person and abandoning that sin. However this is not what Joseph was speaking of.

The sin he is speaking of is much worse and is the only one from which there is no going back. To sin against the Holy Ghost has been described as "tasting of the goodness of Jesus, abiding by his commandments, seeing his face, knowing for a fact the entire plan of redemption as brought forth by Him. Then turning your back on Jesus, spitting in his face, crucifying him again and denying you ever knew Him, betraying Him and working with Satan to destroy His Church." "To look at the Noonday sun and behold it's brightness and the next moment deny that it shines."

I doubt any of us has ever even met such a person and probably never will. I can't Judge Judas entirely but I don't think his actions are going to go over well on the next side.

Dear Truth I appreciate you also for how you started and conduct this thread in the spirit of truth, and correction with forgiveness. I believe you will succeed in sharing and establishing truth because of your pure motivations.

As for your specific qualifications on sins against the Holy Spirit, given that Jesus and the Bible are for all people, I find this is "too limited" unless you interpret what you provided more universally to apply to the "spiritual state" that is causing the unforgiveness.

If you pinpoint just one specific application, instead of the general condition and causes behind what you presented, then people would go around targeting THOSE particular cases or people, and we would no longer be equal in God's eyes. The interpretation, even of what you state, should be able to apply to any and all people equally, so we are equally at fault when we threaten to go into that state of unforgiveness which causes such rebellion and retribution; basically being so jealous or resentful of God's ways being supreme that we would seek to sabotage what is good and healed -- any action like that must STILL come from "unforgiveness". So "unforgiveness" is still the common root of the sin, and which applies to ALL people.

Now if you mean when unforgiveness causes someone else to break their faith and become unforgiving, so it causes a chain reaction, then yes, that still shows how many layers, even generations, it would take to heal the consequences of unforgiveness.

So I would also agree that makes the degree of sin multifold, and explains WHY it takes more than one world or generation before such a chain of sins is fully healed or forgiven.

So I would not agree to limit the issue of unforgiveness to just that particular literal instance, but would still look at the SPIRIT of what causes the example you gave to be such a compounding issue; and to see how other cases are on the same level of transgression, causing so much damage that it is not healed "in this world or the next."

However, by the fourth and fifth generation, even curses carried in the spirit that people in the past died without forgiving and giving to Christ; these can be given by future generations and still be brought to redemption. So there is an end to the unforgiveness.

Healing may not come in one life or the next, but once divine forgiveness in Christ is established then all truth is revealed so all are set free from the past.

From our human perspective it is NOT forgiven, since lifetimes are limited and once you die in sin that is too late to make peace. But from God's perspective, which transcends the linear limitations of human life and death, then God's love and grace conquers all over time.

I don't think this has to negate your Mormon interpretation, but just expands on it to apply the same concept of "unforgiveness" causing rebellion and vengeful destruction. I believe we agree more than disagree, because "unforgiveness" is the common factor that would cause such problems and consequences.

I think that is the better focus because the warning would be general and apply to ALL people in ALL things we do. Anything we do out of "unforgiveness" especially for those who do not forgive God and do self-destructive things to hurt themselves or others out of anger, can be seen as falling under that level of abuse with lifetimes of repercussions. Such a negative chain reaction has the SAME effect you mention of causing others to fall away or reject or lose faith, by spreading unforgiving destruction. But it does not have to be literal "teaching" as a formal minister. It can be teaching indirectly by example.

So I would just interpret it more generally, in keeping with the SPIRIT of why the case you present is so critical, but not necessarily just a literal case that would not apply to all people.

Yours truly,
Emily

 

[emilynghiem]

Please forgive me, but I have no clue what you are talking about. And I have no clue how it's related to the topic here. Could you elaborate or break things down better? because Id really like to have a more indepth conversation here but I just dont understand what point you are trying to make.

Sorry Avatar. The three points I was making
1. that this prophet may be right in spirit, but other views may help add needed clarity and refine the concept even better. So "one way" is not enough to establish the whole truth.
Agreement in Christ is the only way, not just Mormon/Christian/Buddhist etc by itself.
2. the specific scripture was that blasphemies against God and Christ are forgiven, but blasphemies against the Holy Spirit are not forgiven in this world or the next.
The interpretation I follow is that "unforgiveness" is the one block against receiving forgiveness.
So I went into too much detail that with respect to human "free will" we must "choose" to let something be forgiven before God will help us with that. I have never ever seen someone who could be forced to forgive it does not work! It must be by free will. So that unforgiveness is the one thing that will block God's will from happening until we agree.
3. And the examples I gave are how it is true that unforgiven sins cause a chain reaction or cycle of unforgiveness from one generation to the next, in keeping with the concept that it is "not forgiven in this world or the next". It can take several generations to break the cycle of addiction or abuse, for example. Since I have a friend who specializes in prayer therapy to help people out of self-destructive addiction caused by generational problems passed down, then I use this as an example. That once a person in a future generation accepts to forgive, the cycle is broken for all the people in that chain. The dead still died in the state of unforgiveness, so they suffered and that cannot change physically. But spiritually there is redemption over more than one lifetime or generation. So this world or the next may not see the end of crime and violence and war, but there is hope for the next.

(As for TS response, I do agree with the spirit and reason his example causes such a multiple degree of sin upon sin. But since it is based on unforgiveness, then I would still say that is the common cause of why it is not forgiven. It makes sense that the more layers of unforgiveness inciting others to be unforgiving would take more than one lifetime or generation to forgive and heal all the damage caused. But I don't believe in restricting it to just that one particular case literally, but any case incurring similar degrees of damage along the same lines)

 

[Truthspeaker]

But simply let me remind all that traditional and historical Christianity does not interpret the "unpardonable sin" as does the opinion of Mormon theology.

Of course not, because traditional Christianity does not have any writings in the Bible about the unpardonable sin. We have more revelation on the subject.

I agree that you have plenty of opinion and statements. Revelation? No.

Well you say NO and I say SO. But we have the only writings on the subject of Unpardonable Sin. Take them for what they're worth.