The sun is constant yet ocean temperatures increase and decrease. Why?

[EMH]

Its absolutely part of the system... It doesn't need to be the main cause to be significant

It is not significant. It fact, there is NO ACTUAL DATA to support what you claim, just FUDGE.

 

[Slade3200]

Then gas it not the cause of Earth climate change.




No, it is driven by the truth of 600 miles to the pole, just that, and only that.

Where is ice on Earth today

90% on Antarctica
7% on Greenland
0.3% on Ellesmere

leaving all of 2.7% for sea ice and mountain tops....

What do you mean "No" you don't think our climate is driven by heat transfer?? If not then what? If you say Ice, then what about Ice makes it important?

 

[EMH]

"No" you don't think our climate is driven by heat transfer??

The "heat transfer" bs is used by those who claim wind and currents are the cause. They aren't. They don't even have any actual data on currents to even postulate. They have NOTHING.

What does cause Earth ice to increase? When a piece of land gets to within 600 miles of an Earth pole, and starts a continent specific ICE AGE like Greenland and Antarctica are today.

 

[Slade3200]

It is not significant. It fact, there is NO ACTUAL DATA to support what you claim, just FUDGE.

No actual data?? are you high?? Here is a taste, let me know if you need more details:

Laboratory spectroscopy shows that CO₂ absorbs and emits infrared radiation at specific wavelengths (particularly near 15 µm), which is a key mechanism for trapping heat.

Satellite observations confirm CO₂’s role in absorbing infrared radiation, reducing the amount of heat escaping to space.

Ground-based measurements of downward infrared radiation show an increase in the amount of heat being trapped near the surface, consistent with higher CO₂ concentrations.

Paleoclimate records and climate models validate the connection between CO₂ levels and temperature over geological timescales and in recent decades.

 

[Slade3200]

The "heat transfer" bs is used by those who claim wind and currents are the cause. They aren't. They don't even have any actual data on currents to even postulate. They have NOTHING.

What does cause Earth ice to increase? When a piece of land gets to within 600 miles of an Earth pole, and starts a continent specific ICE AGE like Greenland and Antarctica are today.

Haha, and how does land near a pole cause an ice age?

 

[EMH]

Ground-based measurements of downward infrared radiation show an increase in the amount of heat being trapped near the surface, consistent with higher CO₂ concentrations.

That's the bullshitter, that is deliberately misinterpreting Urban Heat and blaming Co2 for it

Paleoclimate records and climate models validate the connection between CO₂ levels and temperature over geological timescales and in recent decades.

That's complete BS based on dirty uncontrolled data of O isotopes from Antarctica, and those who use that temp chart still cannot explain the "spikes down" it shows, because those are almost certainly volcanic eruptions from the Peninsula, which alters the O isotope ratio, and gets the spike 180 degrees wrong as a result...


Co2 absorbs IR check

Your side has ZERO EVIDENCE, ZERO ACTUAL DATA, that increasing atmospheric Co2 has warmed anything...

 

[Slade3200]

That's the bullshitter, that is deliberately misinterpreting Urban Heat and blaming Co2 for it

How so… explain

 

[Slade3200]

That's the bullshitter, that is deliberately misinterpreting Urban Heat and blaming Co2 for it






That's complete BS based on dirty uncontrolled data of O isotopes from Antarctica, and those who use that temp chart still cannot explain the "spikes down" it shows, because those are almost certainly volcanic eruptions from the Peninsula, which alters the O isotope ratio, and gets the spike 180 degrees wrong as a result...


Co2 absorbs IR check

Your side has ZERO EVIDENCE, ZERO ACTUAL DATA, that increasing atmospheric Co2 has warmed anything...

So would it be accurate to say that you do agree CO2 absorbs IR and emits IR… however you don’t think it is responsible for warming the earth?

 

[EMH]

How so… explain

The only warming in the ACTUAL DATA is from growing urban areas...

urban heat island effect - Google Search

www.google.com

This is what Mann and Hansen learned when they were young participants in the 1970s Global COOLING fraud, that the surface of growing urban areas warms right there on the surface. Viola!! "warming" that can be blamed on anything, in this case Co2...

 

[EMH]

So would it be accurate to say that you do agree CO2 absorbs IR and emits IR… however you don’t think it is responsible for warming the earth?

All gas absorbs some part of EM. O3, ozone, absorbs UV, much stronger than IR. IR is weak. Adding Co2 to catch more IR from Sun does NOTHING because IR is weak EM. That's what THE DATA says... before it was FUDGED.

 

[Slade3200]

The only warming in the ACTUAL DATA is from growing urban areas...

urban heat island effect - Google Search

www.google.com

This is what Mann and Hansen learned when they were young participants in the 1970s Global COOLING fraud, that the surface of growing urban areas warms right there on the surface. Viola!! "warming" that can be blamed on anything, in this case Co2...

The question of how we distinguish between urban heat effects and the greenhouse gas-driven warming (particularly from CO₂ emissions) in ground-based infrared (IR) heat measurements is important in climate science. Here’s how scientists address this concern and ensure that urban heat is not confused with global warming caused by CO₂:

1. Urban Heat Island (UHI) Effect:​

• Urban areas tend to be warmer than surrounding rural areas due to the Urban Heat Island (UHI) effect. This is caused by:
  • Concrete, asphalt, and buildings absorbing and re-radiating heat.
  • Reduced vegetation and green spaces.
  • Human activities, including traffic, heating, and industrial processes, contributing to localized warming.
• UHI is a localized phenomenon and primarily affects surface air temperatures in urban areas, especially at night.

2. Addressing UHI in Climate Data:​

To avoid conflating the UHI effect with broader global warming driven by CO₂ emissions, scientists take several steps:

A. Location of Measurement Stations:​

• Climate scientists use temperature data from both urban and rural weather stations. Rural stations (far from urban centers) provide a reference point that is free from UHI effects.
• Long-term climate datasets, such as those from NASA and NOAA, include temperature records from thousands of stations worldwide, including many located in remote rural areas and oceans (which cover about 70% of Earth’s surface). These rural and oceanic data help verify that warming is a global phenomenon, not just an urban one.

B. Adjustments and Corrections:​

• Climate scientists have developed methods to correct for the UHI effect in urban stations. Statistical algorithms identify and account for urban warming trends in the data.
• For example, NOAA’s Global Historical Climatology Network (GHCN) uses homogenization techniques to adjust temperature records. These adjustments help ensure that local UHI effects do not skew long-term global temperature trends.

C. Satellite Measurements:​

• Satellites provide global temperature data and measure radiative forcing from greenhouse gases, including CO₂, in the atmosphere. These satellite measurements are not affected by the UHI effect, as they cover the entire planet, including remote regions and oceans.
• Infrared radiation (IR) measurements taken from space confirm the increase in outgoing longwave radiationthat CO₂ traps and re-emits in the atmosphere. This matches predictions of CO₂-induced warming, independent of urban factors.

D. Global Distribution of Warming:​

• Global warming is observed in rural, urban, and oceanic regions. Rural stations and ocean buoy data show that warming is global, not confined to cities. For example, areas far from urbanization, such as the Arctic, are warming significantly faster than most urban areas, which would not be explained by the UHI effect.

3. Greenhouse Effect and CO₂:​

• The greenhouse effect from CO₂ is a well-understood process that works by trapping infrared radiationin the atmosphere, causing the Earth to warm. This effect happens globally, both in urban and rural areas, and is confirmed by multiple lines of evidence:
  • Direct observations of CO₂’s absorption and re-emission of infrared radiation from the ground and satellites.
  • Radiative transfer models that calculate how much infrared radiation is absorbed by different gases, including CO₂, based on their concentration.
  • The increase in downwelling infrared radiation observed from surface stations and satellites is consistent with the additional CO₂ in the atmosphere, not localized heating effects.

4. Temporal Patterns of Warming:​

• Global warming from CO₂ is consistent across decades, while the UHI effect mainly affects daily temperature cycles, particularly nighttime temperatures. Warming due to CO₂ has been observed for over a century, while UHI is a more recent phenomenon linked to urbanization.
• Moreover, UHI effects tend to be more pronounced in summer when cities absorb more heat, but CO₂-driven warming occurs year-round and affects both day and night temperatures globally, including in remote locations that are far from cities.

5. Ocean and Polar Warming:​

• The strongest evidence for CO₂-driven global warming comes from regions far from urban centers, like the oceans and the polar regions:
  • The oceans absorb much of the excess heat caused by increased greenhouse gases, leading to measurable ocean warming.
  • The Arctic and Antarctic are warming at much faster rates than urban areas, which can’t be explained by the UHI effect.
• This widespread warming, particularly in remote areas, cannot be attributed to urbanization but is consistent with global increases in CO₂ and other greenhouse gases.

6. Multiple Lines of Evidence:​

The scientific understanding of CO₂-driven global warming comes from multiple independent lines of evidence:

• Ground-based temperature records corrected for UHI.
• Satellite measurements of Earth’s radiative balance.
• Ocean temperature records and heat content data.
• Paleoclimate data showing how CO₂ levels have affected Earth’s temperature in the past.

 

[Slade3200]

All gas absorbs some part of EM. O3, ozone, absorbs UV, much stronger than IR. IR is weak. Adding Co2 to catch more IR from Sun does NOTHING because IR is weak EM. That's what THE DATA says... before it was FUDGED.

Ozone absorbs short wave radiation like UV... The atmosphere (H20, CO2 etc) absorbs IR which is what the earth emits after it is warmed by Solar radiation... You can say it is weak all day but that doesn't dismiss the fact that it is still heat emissions on a global scale... I'm just checking to see if you are objective enough to acknowledge that the actual science shows the molecules absorbing and emitting heat which is quite literally what the greenhouse effect is. We can dig into the magnitude later, but at the foundation do you acknowledge that the system operates as I've laid out?

 

[EMH]

Here’s how scientists address this concern and ensure that urban heat is not confused with global warming caused by CO₂:

... they lie and fudge data.

And they know this is out there, which is why they felt the need to put out a puff piece in the media about it.

Their actual data, not the fudge, has no warming outside of UHI, none.

 

[EMH]

Ozone absorbs short wave radiation like UV... The atmosphere (H20, CO2 etc) absorbs IR which is what the earth emits after it is warmed by Solar radiation... You can say it is weak all day but that doesn't dismiss the fact that it is still heat emissions on a global scale... I'm just checking to see if you are objective enough to acknowledge that the actual science shows the molecules absorbing and emitting heat which is quite literally what the greenhouse effect is. We can dig into the magnitude later, but at the foundation do you acknowledge that the system operates as I've laid out?

You are discussing nothing that has not been going on planet Earth for billions of years...

The subject is climate CHANGE, not whether or not the Sun warms Earth...


Greenland froze while North America thawed, over the past

10k
20k
50k
1-2 mil

years take your pick....

The atmosphere and Sun are ruled out as suspects because of that fact.

 

[ding]

The question of how we distinguish between urban heat effects and the greenhouse gas-driven warming (particularly from CO₂ emissions) in ground-based infrared (IR) heat measurements is important in climate science. Here’s how scientists address this concern and ensure that urban heat is not confused with global warming caused by CO₂:

1. Urban Heat Island (UHI) Effect:​

• Urban areas tend to be warmer than surrounding rural areas due to the Urban Heat Island (UHI) effect. This is caused by:
  • Concrete, asphalt, and buildings absorbing and re-radiating heat.
  • Reduced vegetation and green spaces.
  • Human activities, including traffic, heating, and industrial processes, contributing to localized warming.
• UHI is a localized phenomenon and primarily affects surface air temperatures in urban areas, especially at night.

2. Addressing UHI in Climate Data:​

To avoid conflating the UHI effect with broader global warming driven by CO₂ emissions, scientists take several steps:

A. Location of Measurement Stations:​

• Climate scientists use temperature data from both urban and rural weather stations. Rural stations (far from urban centers) provide a reference point that is free from UHI effects.
• Long-term climate datasets, such as those from NASA and NOAA, include temperature records from thousands of stations worldwide, including many located in remote rural areas and oceans (which cover about 70% of Earth’s surface). These rural and oceanic data help verify that warming is a global phenomenon, not just an urban one.

B. Adjustments and Corrections:​

• Climate scientists have developed methods to correct for the UHI effect in urban stations. Statistical algorithms identify and account for urban warming trends in the data.
• For example, NOAA’s Global Historical Climatology Network (GHCN) uses homogenization techniques to adjust temperature records. These adjustments help ensure that local UHI effects do not skew long-term global temperature trends.

C. Satellite Measurements:​

• Satellites provide global temperature data and measure radiative forcing from greenhouse gases, including CO₂, in the atmosphere. These satellite measurements are not affected by the UHI effect, as they cover the entire planet, including remote regions and oceans.
• Infrared radiation (IR) measurements taken from space confirm the increase in outgoing longwave radiationthat CO₂ traps and re-emits in the atmosphere. This matches predictions of CO₂-induced warming, independent of urban factors.

D. Global Distribution of Warming:​

• Global warming is observed in rural, urban, and oceanic regions. Rural stations and ocean buoy data show that warming is global, not confined to cities. For example, areas far from urbanization, such as the Arctic, are warming significantly faster than most urban areas, which would not be explained by the UHI effect.

3. Greenhouse Effect and CO₂:​

• The greenhouse effect from CO₂ is a well-understood process that works by trapping infrared radiationin the atmosphere, causing the Earth to warm. This effect happens globally, both in urban and rural areas, and is confirmed by multiple lines of evidence:
  • Direct observations of CO₂’s absorption and re-emission of infrared radiation from the ground and satellites.
  • Radiative transfer models that calculate how much infrared radiation is absorbed by different gases, including CO₂, based on their concentration.
  • The increase in downwelling infrared radiation observed from surface stations and satellites is consistent with the additional CO₂ in the atmosphere, not localized heating effects.

4. Temporal Patterns of Warming:​

• Global warming from CO₂ is consistent across decades, while the UHI effect mainly affects daily temperature cycles, particularly nighttime temperatures. Warming due to CO₂ has been observed for over a century, while UHI is a more recent phenomenon linked to urbanization.
• Moreover, UHI effects tend to be more pronounced in summer when cities absorb more heat, but CO₂-driven warming occurs year-round and affects both day and night temperatures globally, including in remote locations that are far from cities.

5. Ocean and Polar Warming:​

• The strongest evidence for CO₂-driven global warming comes from regions far from urban centers, like the oceans and the polar regions:
  • The oceans absorb much of the excess heat caused by increased greenhouse gases, leading to measurable ocean warming.
  • The Arctic and Antarctic are warming at much faster rates than urban areas, which can’t be explained by the UHI effect.
• This widespread warming, particularly in remote areas, cannot be attributed to urbanization but is consistent with global increases in CO₂ and other greenhouse gases.

6. Multiple Lines of Evidence:​

The scientific understanding of CO₂-driven global warming comes from multiple independent lines of evidence:

• Ground-based temperature records corrected for UHI.
• Satellite measurements of Earth’s radiative balance.
• Ocean temperature records and heat content data.
• Paleoclimate data showing how CO₂ levels have affected Earth’s temperature in the past.

Do you dismiss the urban heat island as insignificant?

 

[Slade3200]

... they lie and fudge data.

And they know this is out there, which is why they felt the need to put out a puff piece in the media about it.

Their actual data, not the fudge, has no warming outside of UHI, none.

Ohh ok, I’ll just take your word on it then… super convincing

 

[Slade3200]

Do you dismiss the urban heat island as insignificant?

Not at all. Urban areas certainly generate heat. I just don’t think it negates data showing the greenhouse effect

 

[ding]

Not at all. Urban areas certainly generate heat. I just don’t think it negates data showing the greenhouse effect

It doesn't negate it per se but at a minimum it skews it and at a maximum it changes the conclusions of modelling.

Scientists come to opposite conclusions about the causes of recent climate change depending on which datasets they consider. For instance, the panels on the left lead to the conclusion that global temperature changes since the mid-19th century have been mostly due to human-caused emissions, especially carbon dioxide (CO2), i.e., the conclusion reached by the UN IPCC reports. In contrast, the panels on the right lead to the exact opposite conclusion, i.e., that the global temperature changes since the mid-19th century have been mostly due to natural cycles, chiefly long-term changes in the energy emitted by the Sun.

Both sets of panels are based on published scientific data, but each uses different datasets and assumptions. On the left, it is assumed that the available temperature records are unaffected by the urban heat island problem, and so all stations are used, whether urban or rural. On the right, only rural stations are used. Meanwhile, on the left, solar output is modeled using the low variability dataset that has been chosen for the IPCC’s upcoming (in 2021/2022) 6th Assessment Reports. This implies zero contribution from natural factors to the long-term warming. On the right, solar output is modeled using a high variability dataset used by the team in charge of NASA’s ACRIM sun-monitoring satellites. This implies that most, if not all, of the long-term temperature changes are due to natural factors.

Here is the link to the full paper.
ShieldSquare Captcha

 

[EMH]

Ohh ok, I’ll just take your word on it then… super convincing

The WSJ had a full documentation of that. You've seen the atmospheric temp fudge job, and that's #1 because the TRUTH of the DATA is that Co2 does NOTHING, and there WAS NEVER ANY DATA SUGGESTING OTHERWISE.

 

[Slade3200]

You are discussing nothing that has not been going on planet Earth for billions of years...

The subject is climate CHANGE, not whether or not the Sun warms Earth...


Greenland froze while North America thawed, over the past

10k
20k
50k
1-2 mil

years take your pick....

The atmosphere and Sun are ruled out as suspects because of that fact.

Yes the climate has changed throughout history and it will continue to change… but we are talking about a sliver of conditions that make our ecosystem ideal for human life with the population and plant life and resources that we are currently need for survival. While CO2 in our atmosphere may not be a substantial factor driving the formation of ice sheets or interglacial periods it certainly plays a role in how our system operates and it is something that human industry is measurably impacting.