The science against climate change

[skookerasbil]

The other thing that is fascinating to me about the level of naive amongst the environmental radicals.........that think that these people investing in renewable technology are in it to save the environment. LMAO.......these are clever opportunists making money in bushels because there are alot of suckers out there to take advantage of. Just a fringe energy market, but these fuckers like to steal public money to line their pockets. The environmental radicals who buy into it are the same people who wake up in the middle of the night and get out ther credit card to buy some scam product on cable TV channel 392...........its hysterical.

There ya go Saigon.........you can find one on the internet someplace, Im sure!!!

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The lead author of the BEST STUDY DID validate that claim... ---- silly Cynic.. When you're dealing with a slimy press hound like Muller --- you just have to pull the proper QUOTE...

Richard muller...

Richard A. Muller: The Case Against Global-Warming Skepticism - WSJ.com

The temperature-station quality is largely awful.

The most important stations in the U.S. are included in the Department of Energy's Historical Climatology Network. A careful survey of these stations by a team led by meteorologist Anthony Watts showed that 70% of these stations have such poor siting that, by the U.S. government's own measure, they result in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more. We do not know how much worse are the stations in the developing world.

Using data from all these poor stations, the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates an average global 0.64ºC temperature rise in the past 50 years, "most" of which the IPCC says is due to humans. Yet the margin of error for the stations is at least three times larger than the estimated warming.
Global warming is real. Perhaps our results will help cool this portion of the climate debate. How much of the warming is due to humans and what will be the likely effects? We made no independent assessment of that.

Don't accuse me of lying so carelessly... You'll have a very hard time finding me lying.. Problem here is NOT ME LYING.. It's a scientist that LOVES the attention and will say anything to appear to be the great moderator for AGW...

Um...I think you were just caught having vmasivrly misrepresented this material, weren't you?

I do think honet poster could 'fess up to these things when you are caught as obviously as that!


Dave, Frank -

Can you either post something other than spam, or comment on the topic sensibly?

Sure Saigon, sure. Just as soon as you post that repeatable lab experiment that show how a 200ppm increase in CO2 raises temperature

 

[flacaltenn]

You presented NO NONE NADA evidence that the wine grape YIELD in Australia has suffered. Because there IS NONE... But you presented an amazing case of stubborn refusal to address the FACTS in front of you... It doesn't rain in NAPA and SONOMA for 6 months out of the year and their grapes are WORLD RENOWNED...

Now this one I think we can call a lie!

No -- Wine grape YIELD HAS GONE INCREASINGLY UPWARDS....

Do you no recall seeing that the total amount of land used for growing grapes in Australia fell every year from 2008?

Shall I post it again?

You know, that thread ran or a week - at no point did any poster offer any explanation for the change in drought patterns other than climate change.

You ARE a fool.. Land under cultivation is NOT YIELD... The Aussie wine grape harvest is LARGER because it takes DECADES for a vineyard to reach maximum yield. You're a fool because you don't realize how silly your GW claim is here.

There are MANY VARIABLES in this simple example.. Including the rush to plant out MARGINAL LAND in the past decade.. They have farmed out ALL the viable land and some of the "last one's in" are gonna experience failure.. The land under cultivation PEAKED and now some of those wagers are gonna fail.. BUT YIELD is going up....

Winebiz | Wine Industry Statistics

From 2010 to 2011

¦The total number of wine producers grew from 2,477 to 2,532.
¦The total winegrape intake increased to 1.62 million tonnes of grapes
¦Beverage wine production decreased to 1,073 million litres
¦Domestic sales of Australian-produced and imported wine decreased to 530.9 million litres


Winebiz | Vintage Reports

2008
According to the Winemakers’ Federation of Australia (WFA) 2008 Vintage Survey, Australia’s winegrape intake increased by 37% from last year, reaching a total of 1.83m tonnes. This figure is significantly larger than estimations made pre-harvest.

Disease pressure was high due to humid and moist conditions in December. Powdery mildew pressure was high and in several sites quality was compromised. Native Marri flower was non-existent resulting in high bird pressure.

The region experienced a ‘compressed’ early vintage but this evened out after cooler conditions in early autumn


Australia 2011 harvest 'too big', says winemaker federation | Daily wine news - the latest breaking wine news from around the world | News | decanter.com

Australia 2011 harvest 'too big', says winemaker federation
Wednesday 15 June 2011 by Rebecca GibbComments (2)


The huge Australian harvest this year is 'out of step' with the realities of sustainable production, a senior executive has said.

Yields from the 2011 Australian and New Zealand harvests have exceeded all expectations.

Australia has recorded a larger crop than 2010 despite disease ravaging the country's wine regions while New Zealand has announced another record-breaking vintage.

The estimated Australian crush of 1.63m tonnes is a 1% increase compared to 2010, representing another blow for the country's producers, already battling with a wine glut and depressed prices.

Stephen Strachan, the Winemakers' Federation of Australia chief executive, said, 'The vintage is too big. It may seem harsh, given the year many people have had, to focus on the longer term rather than the demands of the present, but a harvest in excess of 1.6m tonnes is out of step with the realities of sustainable production and the market opportunity for premium Australian wine.'.

You hang on single facts without a cohesive understanding of the topic. How do you explain that EVERY YEAR is a DROUGHT SUMMER in Napa and Sonoma --- yet the grapes are excellent? It doesn't RAIN FOR 6 or 7 straight months.. BECAUSE --- it has the proper climate to sustain grapes. DROUGHT --- is not an indicator of yield. RAIN IS!!

You post SPECULATION about 2008 harvest in the NYTIMES (multiple times) after being shown that IT WAS A FALSE ALARM for that year..

You will be negged everytime you call me a liar on this witchhunt of yours... Because what I've given you above here should be an ample response to your assertion that GW is KILLING the Aussie grape industry.. If you want to clown around and become an obnoxious pest --- be my guest...

 

[westwall]

I agree that the real issue is with CO2, but just to look at a few of the other points you touch on here:

surely you are not saying the rate of retreat of glaciers is faster now than it was 150-100 years ago?

I am. I believe that this trend is unprecedented in both scale and for how global it is.

The Little Ice Age was a period from about 1550 to 1850 when the world experienced relatively cooler temperatures compared to the present. Subsequently, until about 1940, glaciers around the world retreated as the climate warmed substantially. Glacial retreat slowed and even reversed temporarily, in many cases, between 1950 and 1980 as a slight global cooling occurred. Since 1980, a significant global warming has led to glacier retreat becoming increasingly rapid and ubiquitous, so much so that some glaciers have disappeared altogether, and the existence of a great number of the remaining glaciers of the world is threatened.

Retreat of glaciers since 1850 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thi graphic shows the historical curve going back to 1500. The falls in the 1850s were severe, but also relatively brief, although many glaciers never entirely recovered. You might also ask yourself if the industrial revolution played any part in that.

IPCC Third Assessment Report - Climate Change 2001 - Complete online versions | UNEP/GRID-Arendal - Publications - Other

In case no one else has posted it. Your supposition is wrong. Here is a map showing the glacial retreat in one section of Alaska. As you can see the VAST majority occured before 1890.

 

[tjvh]

The Planet has gone through naturally occurring climate changes long before man was ever an issue, and it still is. We had an Ice Age once, and I don't think we can blame it on Coal, and exhaust emissions from cars. You don't need science when common sense suffices just fine.

 

[Saigon]

The Planet has gone through naturally occurring climate changes long before man was ever an issue, and it still is. We had an Ice Age once, and I don't think we can blame it on Coal, and exhaust emissions from cars. You don't need science when common sense suffices just fine.

You do realise that everyone, but everyone, agrees with your statement, right?

What you have said in no way contradicts the scientific positions on climate change.

 

[Saigon]

Here is a map showing the glacial retreat in one section of Alaska. As you can see the VAST majority occured before 1890.

One glacier.

 

[Saigon]

You hang on single facts without a cohesive understanding of the topic. How do you explain that EVERY YEAR is a DROUGHT SUMMER in Napa and Sonoma --- yet the grapes are excellent? It doesn't RAIN FOR 6 or 7 straight months.. BECAUSE --- it has the proper climate to sustain grapes. DROUGHT --- is not an indicator of yield. RAIN IS!!

You post SPECULATION about 2008 harvest in the NYTIMES (multiple times) after being shown that IT WAS A FALSE ALARM for that year..

You will be negged everytime you call me a liar on this witchhunt of yours... Because what I've given you above here should be an ample response to your assertion that GW is KILLING the Aussie grape industry.. If you want to clown around and become an obnoxious pest --- be my guest...

A-ha.

And yet we know that every year from 2008 - 2012, less Australian land was used for grape farming.

And we know that farmers say this is because of the increasing severity of drought.

It just takes my breath away that after 2-3 week of discussing this, you still can not admit that.

 

[flacaltenn]

What part of "drought is not a neccessary indication of wine grape yield" don't you understand?

How do Napa and Sonoma do it with NO ZERO NADA precipation expected for 5 or 6 STRAIGHT drought months during the summer and 7 or 8 rainless months over the year?

There was an ASTRONOMICAL INCREASE in land under grape cultivation in Australia since the mid 90s.. So much so that much of the newer land added was marginal ----- AND YET THERE IS GLUT of grape yield...
What the Australian Wine Groups call "an UNSUSTAINABLE LEVEL of production..
I don't even think you understand the basic requirements for growing grapes.

Dispute any of that............

Ian gave some weather charts showing no exceptional changes in weather over the past 10 years. What part of that do you want to dispute? You have NO ARGUMENT for Global Warming here....

To THINK you do illustrates how flimsy and comical you AGW alarmists really are...

Tell me --- WHat's the weather gonna be like in Australia in 2014 DUE TO GW?

PS -- Probably shouldn't be picking grape fights with a guy who's GROWN THEM and LIVED in a wine producing region.... I'm now gonna teach you a few basics about grapes and rainfall.

Turning water into wine / To water grapevines or not -- the roots of the wine industry's next great controversy - SFGate

But in addition to Dominus, such long-standing Napa properties as Grgich Hills and Frog's Leap dry-farm. John Williams, founder of Frog's Leap Winery in Rutherford, recalls buying his vineyards in 1987. "The vineyards were dry-farmed but then I started to irrigate, because I came from UC Davis. By God, we know how to take care of a vineyard!" he says.

"Under irrigation, I soon realized the vineyards were not thriving. Phylloxera attacked. Fortunately Frank Leeds, our neighbor then -- now vineyard manager -- was driving by the vineyard and said to me, 'I don't want to interject here, but you're killing that vineyard.' And that's when he taught me dry farming. What are the great wines that built the reputation of this valley -- the old Inglenooks and BVs? Not a single one of those wines were irrigated."

Despite using AxR1, Williams' vines fought off the louse in the '80s. He suspects that when he irrigated, the roots shrank up to the danger zone that phylloxera inhabited in the soil. By reverting to dry farming, the roots ran down to water and safety.

DRY -FARMED to prevent outbreaks of disease and pests. DRY Farmed to use drought resistance varieties. DRY-FARMED in Napa and Sonoma where it NEVER RAINS from April to October.

When grape farmers "plow their vines under" -- it is USUALLY because of DISEASE and improper selection of variety. OR -- the location of the vineyard is just not comfortable enough to produce GREAT quality because of soil, humidity, pests, etc..

Your assertion is SOOO simplistic, SOOO baseless, and SOOO unproven -- it's really time to move on....

 

[Saigon]

Tell me --- WHat's the weather gonna be like in Australia in 2014 DUE TO GW?

There will be more droughts, and more intense droughts, especially in WA and NT.

There will be more floods, and more intense floods, especially in QLD, VIC and SA.

The Australian Government site suggests:

Australia and the globe are experiencing rapid climate change. Since the middle of the 20th century, Australian temperatures have, on average, risen by about 1°C with an increase in the frequency of heatwaves and a decrease in the numbers of frosts and cold days. Rainfall patterns have also changed - the northwest has seen an increase in rainfall over the last 50 years while much of eastern Australia and the far southwest have experienced a decline.

Climate Change

This is much as I have been saying for the past 2 weeks, in other words.

 

[flacaltenn]

RAINFALL is the far LARGER enemy of grape producers in Australia...

Grapes left on vines after 'challenging' harvest - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Upper Hunter wineries are wrapping up their harvests for 2012, with the wet weather forcing one to leave 10 per cent of its grapes on the vine. Constant rain this year delayed the start of vintage and has disrupted the entire process.

The senior winemaker at James Estate, Graeme Scott, says this year's vintage was not one of the region's best. "It's been a challenging year with the rain, it's wet," he said.

"Our vineyard manager has been here for seven years, this is the wettest he's seen and our main issue now is actually getting out into the vineyard.

"The parcels of fruit that are holding up are still doing reasonably well but it's just too wet to get out with the harvester into the vineyard."

The general manager of Two Rivers Wines, Brett Keeping, says he decided to stop harvesting when he realised the cool, wet weather was not going to let up.

"It wasn't so much that the fruit was breaking down... it just didn't have the chance to ripen," he said.

"We didn't have the heat to really drive that ripening process and it just kept raining, the soil moisture profiles were just full for week after week.

"You really can't do a lot in those circumstances."

Plow it under Jack --- you've got NOTHING.... No PROOF of a Global Warming induced disaster here --- YET.. So let's move on..

 

[Saigon]

Flac -

Do you understand that different places can experience different weather patterns?

Do you understand that it is possible to experience drought in 2008 - and damp weather in 2012?

From your posting it does not seem clear that you do understand these fairly obvious points.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I agree that the real issue is with CO2, but just to look at a few of the other points you touch on here:

surely you are not saying the rate of retreat of glaciers is faster now than it was 150-100 years ago?

I am. I believe that this trend is unprecedented in both scale and for how global it is.

The Little Ice Age was a period from about 1550 to 1850 when the world experienced relatively cooler temperatures compared to the present. Subsequently, until about 1940, glaciers around the world retreated as the climate warmed substantially. Glacial retreat slowed and even reversed temporarily, in many cases, between 1950 and 1980 as a slight global cooling occurred. Since 1980, a significant global warming has led to glacier retreat becoming increasingly rapid and ubiquitous, so much so that some glaciers have disappeared altogether, and the existence of a great number of the remaining glaciers of the world is threatened.

Retreat of glaciers since 1850 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thi graphic shows the historical curve going back to 1500. The falls in the 1850s were severe, but also relatively brief, although many glaciers never entirely recovered. You might also ask yourself if the industrial revolution played any part in that.

IPCC Third Assessment Report - Climate Change 2001 - Complete online versions | UNEP/GRID-Arendal - Publications - Other

Picture says you're wrong

 

[Saigon]

Frank -

Are you actually willing to discuss this like an adult, or will you just run away as soon as facts are presented?

If you want me to explain this I am quite happy to do so as best I am able - but there seems little point finding the links if you are just going to wave the white flag as soon as I post it.

Also - don't forget the links for your graphic.

 

[flacaltenn]

Flac -

Do you understand that different places can experience different weather patterns?

Do you understand that it is possible to experience drought in 2008 - and damp weather in 2012?

From your posting it does not seem clear that you do understand these fairly obvious points.

Oh I understand them perfectly .... It's YOU have lept to the conclusion that CO2 is the cause of this.. It's YOU who thinks a 0.25 deg change in GLOBAL AVERAGE temperature is the cause of any LOCAL drought or LOCAL flooding.. It's you that doesn't understand the myriad of complex issues that determine a good grape harvest. It's YOU that's reading tea leaves instead of science.

That's the problem bro....

 

[Saigon]

It's YOU who thinks a 0.25 deg change in GLOBAL AVERAGE temperature is the cause of any LOCAL drought or LOCAL flooding

Actually, the Australian govenrment concur:

Australia and the globe are experiencing rapid climate change. Since the middle of the 20th century, Australian temperatures have, on average, risen by about 1°C with an increase in the frequency of heatwaves and a decrease in the numbers of frosts and cold days. Rainfall patterns have also changed - the northwest has seen an increase in rainfall over the last 50 years while much of eastern Australia and the far southwest have experienced a decline.

Climate Change

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Frank -

Are you actually willing to discuss this like an adult, or will you just run away as soon as facts are presented?

If you want me to explain this I am quite happy to do so as best I am able - but there seems little point finding the links if you are just going to wave the white flag as soon as I post it.

Also - don't forget the links for your graphic.

Are you denying that North America was covered with an ice sheet a few thousand years ago?

You only present local weather stories. They may be "facts" but they are not evidence that back up your insane and false theory that a wisp of CO2 is driving "Climate change"

The Vostok ice cores show CO2 lagging temperature, why do you think today's CO2 is any different?

 

[Saigon]

Are you denying that North America was covered with an ice sheet a few thousand years ago?

No, of course I'm not denying that! I think we can take it as read that everyone understands that.

So what?

(btw. Ozone is not "a local weather story")

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Are you denying that North America was covered with an ice sheet a few thousand years ago?

No, of course I'm not denying that! I think we can take it as read that everyone understands that.

So what?

(btw. Ozone is not "a local weather story")

So what?

If you were living in NY 14,000 years ago, you'd be decrying the retreat of the glaciers due to campfires

So all this ice melted, then it stopped, but because we're burning "Fossil fuels" it's melting again?

 

[mamooth]

Are you denying that North America was covered with an ice sheet a few thousand years ago?

We're pointing out how cowardly and stupid you look for trotting out that pathetic evasion every time you get spanked by reality. It's an amazingly stupid basic logic failure on your part. The present is not required to act like the past, especially when conditions in the present are wildly different from conditions in the past.

In the manner of patiently explaining things to a slow child, this has been explained to you, over and over. Since you refuse to grasp the obvious, it means you're either an imbecile or a cult liar. Either way, that means the correct response to your 'effed-up logic is to point and laugh, which would be why the entire planet is doing so.