Zone1 The resurrection to life or judgement

[kjw47]

One will not be resurrected and judged for sins committed prior to the death. Romans 6:7 teaches one is acquitted of all sin at death. Those who died paid in full the wages of sin. Thus each one resurrected will be given an opportunity to learn and apply Gods will during that period, with no satan influences around. But satan will be loosed for a little while to test all the resurrected ones. The ones who remain faithful get their names written in Gods book of life, those who do not remain faithful are referred to as Gog from magog, they number as the sands of the sea( many)Rev 20: 7-8--those will be destroyed. Isnt it hard to imagine any would follow satan after experiencing life in paradise? Taught of everlasting life, never sick, never without, no war, greed, hate, pain, fear etc,etc,etc. What do you think?

 

[Clyde 154]

One will not be resurrected and judged for sins committed prior to the death. Romans 6:7 teaches one is acquitted of all sin at death. Those who died paid in full the wages of sin. Thus each one resurrected will be given an opportunity to learn and apply Gods will during that period, with no satan influences around. But satan will be loosed for a little while to test all the resurrected ones. The ones who remain faithful get their names written in Gods book of life, those who do not remain faithful are referred to as Gog from magog, they number as the sands of the sea( many)Rev 20: 7-8--those will be destroyed. Isnt it hard to imagine any would follow satan after experiencing life in paradise? Taught of everlasting life, never sick, never without, no war, greed, hate, pain, fear etc,etc,etc. What do you think?

Strange is it not.........MY BIBLE declares that judgment will come upon all men.....the "quick" and the "dead". (Rev. 20:13, Acts 10:42, 2 Tim. 4:1) What I find amusing is how anyone could believe any doctrine produced by the Watchtower. Their prophesies have been proven to be false time and time again. This could explain why over 1 million people existed this false religion in the 1970s.

Just as declared by Jesus Christ.........."Hell" exists and the unrighteous on the day of judgment will be cast into an everlasting lake of fire. (Matthew 3:12, Matthew 13:41-42, Mark 9:43-48, Rev. 20:10)

Anyone not found written in the Book of Life (the quick or the dead) will be cast into the Lake of Fire. -- Rev. 20:15

Do not confuse HELL and JUDGMENT with "hades" (the resting place of the dead awaiting final judgment by the Books -- Rev. 20:13) At judgment.........Hades will give up its dead to be judged. Hell is eternal......Hades is but a temporary holding place for the spirits of men that are deceased.

Hades is explained in detail by the Christ in a parable. Its a realm where the spirits of the dead.......both the righteous and the unrighteous are contained until final judgment. The righteous are separated from the unrighteous (the righteous rest in paradise in the Bossom of Abraham.....the unrighteous are in a state of punishment, both are awaiting final judgment....with no possiblity of the dead ever returning to earth to warn others of the eternal punishment awaiting the unrighteous (Luke 16) Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Jesus in "paradise" that same day. (Luke 23:42)

The only person to vist Hades was Jesus Christ.......as He went to preach to the souls in hades during the 3 days His fleshly body remained in the grave.

During the Apostle Peter's first sermon, after the ascension of Jesus, Peter made reference to how Jesus' body would never see corruption in hades (Act 2:27,31). Jesus spent 3 days and 3 nights in Hades......or rather His Spirit did as much (Matthew 12:40) Jesus prophesied of this event that would take place after His death.

The Apostle Peter tells us that Jesus' Spirit went to hades and preached to the dead, Jesus' body never saw corruption (1 Peter 3:18-20). After 3 days Jesus body was raised from the dead..........Jesus was seen in the flesh for 40 days after His death, burrial and resurrection, and this is confirmed that while on earth Jesus retained His earthly body before and after death "..........See My hands and feet, that it is I Myself; handle Me and see, for a Spirit has not flesh and bones as you behold Me having." -- Luke 24:39

When Jesus returns for His Bride (the church/kingdom)..........it will not be for anything other than Judgment, at that time the kingdom is returned to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24) What will happen to the earth? Allow Peter to explain, the heavens (sky) and the earth and all the elements will be destroyed.......this day will come like a thief in the night (2 Peter 3:10)

 

[Death-Ninja]

That is not biblical in the least bit, that is what I think....

 

[kjw47]

Strange is it not.........MY BIBLE declares that judgment will come upon all men.....the "quick" and the "dead". (Rev. 20:13, Acts 10:42, 2 Tim. 4:1) What I find amusing is how anyone could believe any doctrine produced by the Watchtower. Their prophesies have been proven to be false time and time again. This could explain why over 1 million people existed this false religion in the 1970s.

Just as declared by Jesus Christ.........."Hell" exists and the unrighteous on the day of judgment will be cast into an everlasting lake of fire. (Matthew 3:12, Matthew 13:41-42, Mark 9:43-48, Rev. 20:10)

Anyone not found written in the Book of Life (the quick or the dead) will be cast into the Lake of Fire. -- Rev. 20:15

Do not confuse HELL and JUDGMENT with "hades" (the resting place of the dead awaiting final judgment by the Books -- Rev. 20:13) At judgment.........Hades will give up its dead to be judged. Hell is eternal......Hades is but a temporary holding place for the spirits of men that are deceased.

Hades is explained in detail by the Christ in a parable. Its a realm where the spirits of the dead.......both the righteous and the unrighteous are contained until final judgment. The righteous are separated from the unrighteous (the righteous rest in paradise in the Bossom of Abraham.....the unrighteous are in a state of punishment, both are awaiting final judgment....with no possiblity of the dead ever returning to earth to warn others of the eternal punishment awaiting the unrighteous (Luke 16) Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Jesus in "paradise" that same day. (Luke 23:42)

The only person to vist Hades was Jesus Christ.......as He went to preach to the souls in hades during the 3 days His fleshly body remained in the grave.

During the Apostle Peter's first sermon, after the ascension of Jesus, Peter made reference to how Jesus' body would never see corruption in hades (Act 2:27,31). Jesus spent 3 days and 3 nights in Hades......or rather His Spirit did as much (Matthew 12:40) Jesus prophesied of this event that would take place after His death.

The Apostle Peter tells us that Jesus' Spirit went to hades and preached to the dead, Jesus' body never saw corruption (1 Peter 3:18-20). After 3 days Jesus body was raised from the dead..........Jesus was seen in the flesh for 40 days after His death, burrial and resurrection, and this is confirmed that while on earth Jesus retained His earthly body before and after death "..........See My hands and feet, that it is I Myself; handle Me and see, for a Spirit has not flesh and bones as you behold Me having." -- Luke 24:39

When Jesus returns for His Bride (the church/kingdom)..........it will not be for anything other than Judgment, at that time the kingdom is returned to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24) What will happen to the earth? Allow Peter to explain, the heavens (sky) and the earth and all the elements will be destroyed.......this day will come like a thief in the night (2 Peter 3:10)

It really would make 0 sense for God to resurrect a dead one to tell them they will be destroyed. I shared Romans 6:7- one is aquitted from the sins they committed at death. That was the judgement for sin, My post is correct as are my teachers.
The Hebrew word-Sheol = the Greek word Hades- both translate the grave. And since Eccl 9:5 assures-the dead know nothing at all. The teaching about Jesus speaking in Hades. is symbolic not literal. Why would Jesus literally speak to those who know nothing? They wouldnt know what he was talking about. The bible doesnt teach 2 different truths. Its your teachers who do not have truth.

 

[ninja007]

there are 2 judgements, not really even judgements though. One for Believers, one for non-believers. The believers arent judged for their salvation- they are already saved- its their works that are judged. The Bema Seat. The great white throne judgement is for unbelievers- all will go to hell.

 

[ninja007]

There are two end-time judgments of which the Bible speaks.

One is the Great White Throne Judgment. It is described in Revelation 20:11-15. “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Only lost people appear at that judgment. Everyone there is cast into the lake of fire. The judgment is to determine their degree of punishment. They all suffer in the fire there, but some will suffer more than others.

Does the Bible really teach that some will suffer there more than others? Yes, because they are judged according to their works. We are not saved by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8,9). But clearly this Great White Throne Judgment brings their works into the matter of the judgment, so it is to give them exactly the torment that they deserve.

The Bible does refer to the judgment being more tolerable for some, than for others (which is not to say that everyone there will not be tormented, because they all will be.) Matthew 10:14,15 says, “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be MORE TOLERABLE for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, than for that city.” Matthew 11:20-24 says, “Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be MORE TOLERABLE for Tyre and Sidon AT THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be MORE TOLERABLE for the land of Sodom IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, than for thee.”



The other end time judgment is the Judgment Seat of Christ. Only Christians will appear at that judgment. It is a judgment to determine eternal rewards or the loss of them. It has nothing to do with determining salvation. That is already determined before a person dies. You will notice that this judgment is also based upon works — not the “amount” of them, but the “sort” (the quality, the motive) of them. I Corinthians 3:9-15 says, “For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” You will notice that it is possible to not have any rewards at all, but still to be saved. What a sad day that will be for such Christians. This is the time to be serving the Lord while we can, with pure and right motives. II Corinthians 5:8-10 says, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

 

[Clyde 154]

It really would make 0 sense for God to resurrect a dead one to tell them they will be destroyed. I shared Romans 6:7- one is aquitted from the sins they committed at death. That was the judgement for sin, My post is correct as are my teachers.
The Hebrew word-Sheol = the Greek word Hades- both translate the grave. And since Eccl 9:5 assures-the dead know nothing at all. The teaching about Jesus speaking in Hades. is symbolic not literal. Why would Jesus literally speak to those who know nothing? They wouldnt know what he was talking about. The bible doesnt teach 2 different truths. Its your teachers who do not have truth.

Reprobate: Those who call the Holy Spirit of Truth a LIAR. You present TRUTHS taught by Jesus as nothing but Children's fables.
What did the Apostle Peter declare about such? "But we (the aposltes of Christ) did not follow cunningly designed FABLES ........but we were witnesses of His majesty." -- 2 Peter 1:16

Are those who TEACH you of the same tribe that killed our Lord and Savior? The only begotten of the Father?

Jesus Describes "Death" of the righteous........those forgiven of Sin, as being in "Paradise". Once "literally" when speaking to the thief on the cross "Lord remember me (the thief) when You come into your kingdom........And, Jesus said unto him, 'Assuredly I say to you, TODAY (not in the future) you will be with Me in PARADISE (the same paradise found in Luke 16..at the bossom of Abrham, simply because a lesson is taught in symbolism does not void that parable from presenting TRUTH)." -- Luke 23:32-33,39-43)

Truth: There is a difference between symbolic parables and FABLES. You pretend that Luke 16 and Jesus are not teaching truth because the message is presented in a contextual language easy to understand/comprehend as compared to literalism.

Both Fables and Parables can present "lessons in morality". One can certainly distingusish a child's fable from reality even if the lsesson's intent is to teach a moral lesson. Take the child's fables presented by "Aesop"......he has written of all types of animals, applying human traits to these creatures......wolves, wasps, elephants, bears.....etc., in these fables the animals had the ablity to speak to one another and with people. THE "TRUTH" IS.....these stories have no basis in reality, they never happened and never could have happened. All though they may contain some moral truths.......no one but CHILDREN or those with under developed minds would even consider them to be based upon TRUTH.

On the other hand...........All Jesus' parables are based upon earthly stories with heavenly meanings. Jesus' parables concern men building houses, farmers sowing in their fields, merchants, fishermen, families and their interactions. Each of these stories could have easily happened.

Reality: Just as you have attempted with your "Reprobate" method of calling the Lord Jesus a liar.......some men want to present these Parables as Fables...when you say, "It just SYMBOLISM". The entire book of Revelation is recorded in symbolic text...what? Is everyone supposed to simply dismiss this book because its presented in symbolism? Some demand everyone to accept as truth that Death is simply a blank sleep for those souls awaiting their resurrection.....they want LUKE 16's parable to be a FABLE instead of a parable from heaven....truth from heaven.

As that was the reason for Jesus coming to earth (God incarnate) (John 1)...........to teach TRUTH from HEAVEN, to deliver the Gospel truth, "You (Pilate) say that I am a King. FOR THIS PURPOSE..........I was born, for this purpose I have come into the world, to bear witness to the TRUTH. EVERYONE WHO IS OF THE TRUTH LISTENS TO MY VOICE." -- John 18:38

So.......whether the rich man and Lazarus actually existed or ever lived, makes no difference. There is truth being delivered. There are angels that carry the righteous to a place of bliss (Paradise as defined by the Christ) and there exists on the other side of death (as the soul/spirit of man never dies.....and death is defined as the spirit parting from the body -- James 2:26)....comforts or tortures of that separated spirit of man, depending upon his life's action while on earth. After death there is Hades (described as a place of fire and torment) with the unrighteous dead always thristing for but one drop of water. A place where no man can ever return.

Yet attempt to teach Truth as Fables.....as if YOU KNOW what exists (more then Jesus) on the other side of Death. How do you know what exists in that spiritual realm? Only Jesus has traveled to that realm (in the Spirit) and preached to the dead. (1 Peter 3:19) and returned to His physical body. He spent 3 days at the center/heart of the earth (Matthew 12:40)

Why preach to the dead? So His sacrifical blood could atone for the sins of those who attempted to live a righteous life before the Covenant of Grace......for the righteous dead who lived and died under the OLD LAW. You see? The Blood of the Christ flows backward as well as forward. What? would you leave the righteous dead in the realim of hades forever? Or, unjustly have them cast into the eternal lake of fire with the Dragon/Satan?

"For this is why the Gospel (truth) was preached, even to those who are dead; that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the Spirit the way God does." -- 1 Peter 4:6

That Book of Symbolism (Revelation) also teaches that Hades (the realm of the dead) will give up its dead at the final judgment.....with that judgment coming from the contents of the BOOKS. (the words taught by Jesus)........and the Book of Life.......your life compared to the teachings of Jesus. (Rev. 20:13) Then comes HELL, the lake of eternal fire where the Dargon and his menions will be cast. (Rev. 20:10)

 

[kjw47]

Reprobate: Those who call the Holy Spirit of Truth a LIAR. You present TRUTHS taught by Jesus as nothing but Children's fables.
What did the Apostle Peter declare about such? "But we (the aposltes of Christ) did not follow cunningly designed FABLES ........but we were witnesses of His majesty." -- 2 Peter 1:16

Are those who TEACH you of the same tribe that killed our Lord and Savior? The only begotten of the Father?

Jesus Describes "Death" of the righteous........those forgiven of Sin, as being in "Paradise". Once "literally" when speaking to the thief on the cross "Lord remember me (the thief) when You come into your kingdom........And, Jesus said unto him, 'Assuredly I say to you, TODAY (not in the future) you will be with Me in PARADISE (the same paradise found in Luke 16..at the bossom of Abrham, simply because a lesson is taught in symbolism does not void that parable from presenting TRUTH)." -- Luke 23:32-33,39-43)

Truth: There is a difference between symbolic parables and FABLES. You pretend that Luke 16 and Jesus are not teaching truth because the message is presented in a contextual language easy to understand/comprehend as compared to literalism.

Both Fables and Parables can present "lessons in morality". One can certainly distingusish a child's fable from reality even if the lsesson's intent is to teach a moral lesson. Take the child's fables presented by "Aesop"......he has written of all types of animals, applying human traits to these creatures......wolves, wasps, elephants, bears.....etc., in these fables the animals had the ablity to speak to one another and with people. THE "TRUTH" IS.....these stories have no basis in reality, they never happened and never could have happened. All though they may contain some moral truths.......no one but CHILDREN or those with under developed minds would even consider them to be based upon TRUTH.

On the other hand...........All Jesus' parables are based upon earthly stories with heavenly meanings. Jesus' parables concern men building houses, farmers sowing in their fields, merchants, fishermen, families and their interactions. Each of these stories could have easily happened.

Reality: Just as you have attempted with your "Reprobate" method of calling the Lord Jesus a liar.......some men want to present these Parables as Fables...when you say, "It just SYMBOLISM". The entire book of Revelation is recorded in symbolic text...what? Is everyone supposed to simply dismiss this book because its presented in symbolism? Some demand everyone to accept as truth that Death is simply a blank sleep for those souls awaiting their resurrection.....they want LUKE 16's parable to be a FABLE instead of a parable from heaven....truth from heaven.

As that was the reason for Jesus coming to earth (God incarnate) (John 1)...........to teach TRUTH from HEAVEN, to deliver the Gospel truth, "You (Pilate) say that I am a King. FOR THIS PURPOSE..........I was born, for this purpose I have come into the world, to bear witness to the TRUTH. EVERYONE WHO IS OF THE TRUTH LISTENS TO MY VOICE." -- John 18:38

So.......whether the rich man and Lazarus actually existed or ever lived, makes no difference. There is truth being delivered. There are angels that carry the righteous to a place of bliss (Paradise as defined by the Christ) and there exists on the other side of death (as the soul/spirit of man never dies.....and death is defined as the spirit parting from the body -- James 2:26)....comforts or tortures of that separated spirit of man, depending upon his life's action while on earth. After death there is Hades (described as a place of fire and torment) with the unrighteous dead always thristing for but one drop of water. A place where no man can ever return.

Yet attempt to teach Truth as Fables.....as if YOU KNOW what exists (more then Jesus) on the other side of Death. How do you know what exists in that spiritual realm? Only Jesus has traveled to that realm (in the Spirit) and preached to the dead. (1 Peter 3:19) and returned to His physical body. He spent 3 days at the center/heart of the earth (Matthew 12:40)

Why preach to the dead? So His sacrifical blood could atone for the sins of those who attempted to live a righteous life before the Covenant of Grace......for the righteous dead who lived and died under the OLD LAW. You see? The Blood of the Christ flows backward as well as forward. What? would you leave the righteous dead in the realim of hades forever? Or, unjustly have them cast into the eternal lake of fire with the Dragon/Satan?

"For this is why the Gospel (truth) was preached, even to those who are dead; that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the Spirit the way God does." -- 1 Peter 4:6

That Book of Symbolism (Revelation) also teaches that Hades (the realm of the dead) will give up its dead at the final judgment.....with that judgment coming from the contents of the BOOKS. (the words taught by Jesus)........and the Book of Life.......your life compared to the teachings of Jesus. (Rev. 20:13) Then comes HELL, the lake of eternal fire where the Dargon and his menions will be cast. (Rev. 20:10)

Peter teaches Jesus has a God his Father-1 Peter 1:3--why wont you believe him there?
Ezekial 18:4--The soul that is sinning will die. Matt 10:28--Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

 

[Clyde 154]

Peter teaches Jesus has a God his Father-1 Peter 1:3--why wont you believe him there?
Ezekial 18:4--The soul that is sinning will die. Matt 10:28--Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Indeed..........Jesus has a Father, as the Son of God.....JESUS was given all authority in heaven and earth by the Father, (Matthew 28:18-20) With that authority Jesus commissioned His disciples to spread the Gospel to all the known world "........Therefore Go (aposltes of Jesus) and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST." Its clear........the Godhead consists of 3 family members that make up one Authority, all with the same mission, all of the same mind.

Jesus is God the same way you are your fathers son/daughter..........Jesus' Father is God, therefore Jesus can be nothing other than God Himself.

If Jesus was just an ordinary man, even though living a perfect sin free life, His death could never benefit the entirety of mankind. Some false doctrines teach that Jesus was nothing more than a man..falsely teaching that Jesus was the first Creation of God. John 1:1 clearly declares with no ambiguity whatsoever that Jesus was in the beginning, having already existed before the beginning. Logically, since Jesus has existed from the beginning.....in the beginning, Jesus already was. He Himself could not have been a product of creation since, "ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE (created)." -- John 1:3 What? Did Jesus CREATE HIMSELF?

No......God created Jesus.......the Son of Man (Adam) not Jesus.......the Son of God, as Jesus the Son of God has existed from the beginning. Jesus became God in the flesh when the Father gave Him all authority in heaven and on earth. Jesus had to be born as a Man in order to fulfill the plans of God that have existed from the beginning, that all of mankind would be offered salvation through His Son Christ Jesus. Before the foundation of the world this plan of God existed (1 Peter 1:20)...or a Paul stated, "Before the beginning of time itself........" -- 2 Tim. 1:9

This plan was a mystery.........hidden from mankind until God decided the time had come for the incarnation of the Son. Hidden even from the prophets who fortold of the plan (Eph. 3:5,6, 1 Peter 1:10-12) Today that mystery has been revealed. (Col. 1:26) Some who refuse to accept the truth that Jesus delivered......can't see the forest for the trees. "......EVERYONE THAT IS OF THAT TRUTH HEARS MY VOICE." Jesus came to bear witness of truth from Heaven (John 18:37)

The Apostle Paul........the same person you are quoting explains in detail, "For by Him (Jesus) all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.....ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM. AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, AND IN HIM ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER." -- 1 Cor. 16:17. What? Did Paul contradict Himself by your lack of logic? Jesus was responsible for all things that were ever created.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not exist before His physical birth on earth? Jesus declares His own PRE-INCARNATION, "........Before Abraham was I AM". -- John 8:58. The Same I AM that God indentified Himself to Moses when Moses asked His name (Exdous 3:14)

Jesus declared Himself equal to the Father. (Phil. 2:6)

What happens to Jesus' Kingdom after the final judgment? The Kingdom is returned to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24)


Clearly Paul does not agree with your false doctrine because Paul stated the obvious. Jesus has a Father in Heaven.

Logic. In the beginning God declared, "let there be light". (Genesis 1:3). God did not say that He created light.....He simply declared, "LET THERE BE LIGHT........" Yet, the Son and Moon were not created until the 4th day. What or WHO was that LIGHT? "Then Jesus spake again, "I AM the light of the world........." (John 8:12)

Without this light guiding your path to all righteousness...........you will become lost, for there is only one path that leads to the Father. "I am way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by Me." -- John 14:6

 

[kjw47]

Indeed..........Jesus has a Father, as the Son of God.....JESUS was given all authority in heaven and earth by the Father, (Matthew 28:18-20) With that authority Jesus commissioned His disciples to spread the Gospel to all the known world "........Therefore Go (aposltes of Jesus) and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST." Its clear........the Godhead consists of 3 family members that make up one Authority, all with the same mission, all of the same mind.

Jesus is God the same way you are your fathers son/daughter..........Jesus' Father is God, therefore Jesus can be nothing other than God Himself.

If Jesus was just an ordinary man, even though living a perfect sin free life, His death could never benefit the entirety of mankind. Some false doctrines teach that Jesus was nothing more than a man..falsely teaching that Jesus was the first Creation of God. John 1:1 clearly declares with no ambiguity whatsoever that Jesus was in the beginning, having already existed before the beginning. Logically, since Jesus has existed from the beginning.....in the beginning, Jesus already was. He Himself could not have been a product of creation since, "ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE (created)." -- John 1:3 What? Did Jesus CREATE HIMSELF?

No......God created Jesus.......the Son of Man (Adam) not Jesus.......the Son of God, as Jesus the Son of God has existed from the beginning. Jesus became God in the flesh when the Father gave Him all authority in heaven and on earth. Jesus had to be born as a Man in order to fulfill the plans of God that have existed from the beginning, that all of mankind would be offered salvation through His Son Christ Jesus. Before the foundation of the world this plan of God existed (1 Peter 1:20)...or a Paul stated, "Before the beginning of time itself........" -- 2 Tim. 1:9

This plan was a mystery.........hidden from mankind until God decided the time had come for the incarnation of the Son. Hidden even from the prophets who fortold of the plan (Eph. 3:5,6, 1 Peter 1:10-12) Today that mystery has been revealed. (Col. 1:26) Some who refuse to accept the truth that Jesus delivered......can't see the forest for the trees. "......EVERYONE THAT IS OF THAT TRUTH HEARS MY VOICE." Jesus came to bear witness of truth from Heaven (John 18:37)

The Apostle Paul........the same person you are quoting explains in detail, "For by Him (Jesus) all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.....ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM. AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, AND IN HIM ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER." -- 1 Cor. 16:17. What? Did Paul contradict Himself by your lack of logic? Jesus was responsible for all things that were ever created.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not exist before His physical birth on earth? Jesus declares His own PRE-INCARNATION, "........Before Abraham was I AM". -- John 8:58. The Same I AM that God indentified Himself to Moses when Moses asked His name (Exdous 3:14)

Jesus declared Himself equal to the Father. (Phil. 2:6)

What happens to Jesus' Kingdom after the final judgment? The Kingdom is returned to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24)


Clearly Paul does not agree with your false doctrine because Paul stated the obvious. Jesus has a Father in Heaven.

Logic. In the beginning God declared, "let there be light". (Genesis 1:3). God did not say that He created light.....He simply declared, "LET THERE BE LIGHT........" Yet, the Son and Moon were not created until the 4th day. What or WHO was that LIGHT? "Then Jesus spake again, "I AM the light of the world........." (John 8:12)

Without this light guiding your path to all righteousness...........you will become lost, for there is only one path that leads to the Father. "I am way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by Me." -- John 14:6

You twist it to say there is a trinity. It actually means all is done in the Fathers name by all real servants.( John 5:30, Matt 7:21). Does not the bible teach-only the Fathers will gets done-Why? Because he is the true living God. The only true God, Jesus taught at John 17:3-- The only God Jesus pointed all to that followed him-John 4:22-24--The only one called God by Paul at 1 Cor 8:5-6

 

[Clyde 154]

You twist it to say there is a trinity. It actually means all is done in the Fathers name by all real servants.( John 5:30, Matt 7:21). Does not the bible teach-only the Fathers will gets done-Why? Because he is the true living God. The only true God, Jesus taught at John 17:3-- The only God Jesus pointed all to that followed him-John 4:22-24--The only one called God by Paul at 1 Cor 8:5-6

Again......why would anyone beleive your cults FALSE doctrine after so many documented failures of your TRUTH not coming true...aka as LYING ONE'S KYSTER OFF?

No......THE BIBLE teaches that 1. "ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH WAS GIVEN TO JESUS CHRIST" (Matthew 28:18). There are at least 20 passages of scripture that detail the same thing (Eph. 1:21....Matthew 11:27 that explains......"....no one knows the Father except the Son; and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal Him."........the Father bestowed upon Jesus a NAME ABOVE ALL OTHERS -- Phil. 2:9............Peter makes it clear, Jesus as of now is sitting on the right hand of the Father in total control of the Kingdom of God, "Jesus........who is at the right hand of God, having gone into Heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been SUBJECTED TO HIM." -- 1 Peter 3:22.

SUBJECTED: Cause to experience or held accountable. Jesus will return the Kingdom back to the Father after the final judgment comes upon mankind and death is defeated.

The "First Fruits" has nothing to do with creating anyone or anything.......Jesus is known as the 1st fruit because He is the first to defeat Death..........everyone saved after Jesus is the first will also defeat death......but that day does not come until AFTER THE FINAL JUDGMENT (1 Cor. 15:20-28)..... then and only then will Hades (realm of the dead) give up its dead.....not until everyone, the "quick and the dead" (i.e., the living and the deceased) have faced the final judgment based upon the content of the 2 Books, The Books that contain the teachings of God (The Bible) and the Book that contains a record of how one lived on earth (Rev. 20:13), then all those who are judged unrighteous will be cast into an eternal lake of fire along with the Dagaon/Satan and his angels/demons (Rev.20:15) At this time the Kingdom will return to the Father (1 Cor.15:24)

2. Jesus was with God and Was God in the beginning, and all things were created through Him (Jesus), without Him nothing was made. (John 1:1-4).

3. The text, content and subject matter are clear and unambigous, "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own (the Jews), and His own did not receive Him.......and the WORD (Jesus) became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, THE GLORY AS THE "ONLY" (not the 1st of many, but THE ONLY) BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, full of grace and truth." -- John 1:10-12, 14

4. The Apostle John personally identified Jesus as ".....We have found Him of whom Moses in the law and the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph........(the passages end with the statement).........Rabbi, (Nathanal speaking to Jesus) YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD! YOU ARE THE KING OF ISRAEL! " -- John 1:45-49

5. Jesus Himself identifies His own pre-incarnation as existing even before Abraham (John 8:58).......which is logical since Jesus claims to have existed before Time began (1 Peter 1:20, 2 Tim. 1:9).........plus the same language is used when Moses asked God His Name......God replied "I AM". (Isa. 6:8)

 

[kjw47]

Again......why would anyone beleive your cults FALSE doctrine after so many documented failures of your TRUTH not coming true...aka as LYING ONE'S KYSTER OFF?

No......THE BIBLE teaches that 1. "ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH WAS GIVEN TO JESUS CHRIST" (Matthew 28:18). There are at least 20 passages of scripture that detail the same thing (Eph. 1:21....Matthew 11:27 that explains......"....no one knows the Father except the Son; and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal Him."........the Father bestowed upon Jesus a NAME ABOVE ALL OTHERS -- Phil. 2:9............Peter makes it clear, Jesus as of now is sitting on the right hand of the Father in total control of the Kingdom of God, "Jesus........who is at the right hand of God, having gone into Heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been SUBJECTED TO HIM." -- 1 Peter 3:22.

SUBJECTED: Cause to experience or held accountable. Jesus will return the Kingdom back to the Father after the final judgment comes upon mankind and death is defeated.

The "First Fruits" has nothing to do with creating anyone or anything.......Jesus is known as the 1st fruit because He is the first to defeat Death..........everyone saved after Jesus is the first will also defeat death......but that day does not come until AFTER THE FINAL JUDGMENT (1 Cor. 15:20-28)..... then and only then will Hades (realm of the dead) give up its dead.....not until everyone, the "quick and the dead" (i.e., the living and the deceased) have faced the final judgment based upon the content of the 2 Books, The Books that contain the teachings of God (The Bible) and the Book that contains a record of how one lived on earth (Rev. 20:13), then all those who are judged unrighteous will be cast into an eternal lake of fire along with the Dagaon/Satan and his angels/demons (Rev.20:15) At this time the Kingdom will return to the Father (1 Cor.15:24)

2. Jesus was with God and Was God in the beginning, and all things were created through Him (Jesus), without Him nothing was made. (John 1:1-4).

3. The text, content and subject matter are clear and unambigous, "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own (the Jews), and His own did not receive Him.......and the WORD (Jesus) became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, THE GLORY AS THE "ONLY" (not the 1st of many, but THE ONLY) BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, full of grace and truth." -- John 1:10-12, 14

4. The Apostle John personally identified Jesus as ".....We have found Him of whom Moses in the law and the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph........(the passages end with the statement).........Rabbi, (Nathanal speaking to Jesus) YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD! YOU ARE THE KING OF ISRAEL! " -- John 1:45-49

5. Jesus Himself identifies His own pre-incarnation as existing even before Abraham (John 8:58).......which is logical since Jesus claims to have existed before Time began (1 Peter 1:20, 2 Tim. 1:9).........plus the same language is used when Moses asked God His Name......God replied "I AM". (Isa. 6:8)

First of all i shared what Jesus taught in every translation on earth. Of course Jesus existed before Abraham, so did Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, etc--all spirit beings were created first before physical creation was done. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.
Yes son of God, not God.
You have many errors in your translation by satans will through Catholicism translating( Greek Lexicons) to fit false council teachings. Eternal life is on the line. Few will find the road--CHECK into FACT.

 

[Clyde 154]

First of all i shared what Jesus taught in every translation on earth. Of course Jesus existed before Abraham, so did Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, etc--all spirit beings were created first before physical creation was done. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.
Yes son of God, not God.
You have many errors in your translation by satans will through Catholicism translating( Greek Lexicons) to fit false council teachings. Eternal life is on the line. Few will find the road--CHECK into FACT.

Again.......what part of ALL CREATION came through Jesus have you failed to comprehend? And No....... Spirit beings were NOT created before time began. "ALL THINGS..........IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE...........WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM (Jesus) AND FOR HIM (this would include angels and any other spirit beings)..........AND "HE IS" BEFORE ALL THINGS AND IN HIM ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER." -- Col. 1:16-17. I perfer to accept the Holy Spirit of Truth's words (all scripture is inspired by God -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17) above those propagated by a demonstrably FALSE CULT.

Even in the O.T. its explained that Angels were created at the same time as all creation. (Pslams 148:2-5)

Jesus is the superior of all things created..........there is "......One God the Father, FROM WHOM ALL THINGS AND FOR WHOM WE EXIST (everything exists for the Father).........AND ONE LORD "JESUS CHRIST", THROUGH WHOM ARE ALL THINGS AND THROUGH WHOM WE EXIST." -- 1 Cor. 8:6 conclusion: all things are created FOR THE FATHER.......all things are created THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. Jesus was obeying the Father when ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM. The first thing God commanded? ".........let there be light" -- Genesis 1:3 Jesus is the LIGHT OF THIS WORLD AND ALL CREATION (John 8:12) As the heavenly bodies that produce light were not created until DAY 4 of creation. What was this light that existed before the stars, the moons and everything else? the LORD JESUS CHRIST

 

[kjw47]

Again.......what part of ALL CREATION came through Jesus have you failed to comprehend? And No....... Spirit beings were NOT created before time began. "ALL THINGS..........IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE...........WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM (Jesus) AND FOR HIM (this would include angels and any other spirit beings)..........AND "HE IS" BEFORE ALL THINGS AND IN HIM ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER." -- Col. 1:16-17. I perfer to accept the Holy Spirit of Truth's words (all scripture is inspired by God -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17) above those propagated by a demonstrably FALSE CULT.

Even in the O.T. its explained that Angels were created at the same time as all creation. (Pslams 148:2-5)

Jesus is the superior of all things created..........there is "......One God the Father, FROM WHOM ALL THINGS AND FOR WHOM WE EXIST (everything exists for the Father).........AND ONE LORD "JESUS CHRIST", THROUGH WHOM ARE ALL THINGS AND THROUGH WHOM WE EXIST." -- 1 Cor. 8:6 conclusion: all things are created FOR THE FATHER.......all things are created THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. Jesus was obeying the Father when ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM. The first thing God commanded? ".........let there be light" -- Genesis 1:3 Jesus is the LIGHT OF THIS WORLD AND ALL CREATION (John 8:12) As the heavenly bodies that produce light were not created until DAY 4 of creation. What was this light that existed before the stars, the moons and everything else? the LORD JESUS CHRIST

i believe Jesus= Gods master worker=the one beside God during the rest of the creation, the one God created all other things through. He says he was created at Prov 8--Coll 1:15-Jesus is the firstborn of all creation--Fact-all creation occurred at the beginning. Your bibles are erred and teachers are blind guides misleading people.

 

[Clyde 154]

i believe Jesus= Gods master worker=the one beside God during the rest of the creation, the one God created all other things through. He says he was created at Prov 8--Coll 1:15-Jesus is the firstborn of all creation--Fact-all creation occurred at the beginning. Your bibles are erred and teachers are blind guides misleading people.

Its not surprising in the least.............What you believe contradicts the actual words of the Spirit of Truth. Your entire cult endorses an Anti-Christ Doctrine. (1 John 2:22, 4:3, 2 John 7). The scriptures do not say that Jesus is the 1st born of "CREATION". The scripture that you are quoting when read in context and SUBJECT MATTER (1 Cor. 1:15)........is not addressing CREATION, but the "resurrection" of the dead. Jesus was the "first fruit".......the first to arise from the dead, with many more to follow when HIS COMMANDS are followed and final judgment is past.........defeating death for all eternity. (Rev.20:10,13)

You must attempt to twist the scriptures and take away the content and context away from the Subject Matter......corrupting the contextual integrity of the simple truth. You are doing exactly what the Apostle Peter warned when reading the inspired teachings of the Apostle Paul.

Peter declared, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as our beloved brother Paul has wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks of these matters (salvation). There are some things in them hard to understand, WHICH THE IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE TWIST TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION, AS THEY DO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES." -- 2 Peter 3:15-16

Paul is speaking of those who will defeat death based upon the Doctrine that the Christ has delivered from heaven via inspiration of the Holy Spirit of Truth. The scriptures self define the subject matter, and creation is never mentioned as the subject matter....the subject matter is the salvation/resurrection of the dead in Christ with Christ being the first fruit......the 1st to defeat death.......but not the last, as death is not defeated, Hades does not give up its dead until the final judgment (Rev. 20:13)

How do we know this.......that Paul is addressing Jesus as the 1st fruit of those destined to defeat death? Read the preceeding vs. 1 Cor. 1512).......there were those in Corinth that were preaching the false message that there is NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD POSSIBLE. "Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the Dead?"

Reading futher after the Subject Matter has been presented (resurrection of the dead), " (Starting with vs.13)....But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching has been in vain and your faith is in vain.................(ending with vs. 20)........THE SUBJECT MATTER DEFINED and ITS NOT CREATION as being created first........."But IN FACT Christ has been raised from the dead..........the FIRST FRUITS OF THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP (deceased)." -- 1 Cor. 15:20 Jesus is the first Son of Man........Son of Adam to be rasied under the New Testament of Grace. The fact that Jesus pre-existed creation as the WORD of GOD and the LIGHT OF THE WORLD and the WORD came to earth (John 1) does not dismiss the fact that Jesus was BORN as a man, born under the law, born of a woman........(Gal. 4:4-7) And as the Son of God..........did not think it robbery to be the equal of God. (Phil. 2:6) Jesus was in the form of God before His incarantion on earth. God is eternal........He was never created.

 

[kjw47]

Its not surprising in the least.............What you believe contradicts the actual words of the Spirit of Truth. Your entire cult endorses an Anti-Christ Doctrine. (1 John 2:22, 4:3, 2 John 7). The scriptures do not say that Jesus is the 1st born of "CREATION". The scripture that you are quoting when read in context and SUBJECT MATTER (1 Cor. 1:15)........is not addressing CREATION, but the "resurrection" of the dead. Jesus was the "first fruit".......the first to arise from the dead, with many more to follow when HIS COMMANDS are followed and final judgment is past.........defeating death for all eternity. (Rev.20:10,13)

You must attempt to twist the scriptures and take away the content and context away from the Subject Matter......corrupting the contextual integrity of the simple truth. You are doing exactly what the Apostle Peter warned when reading the inspired teachings of the Apostle Paul.

Peter declared, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as our beloved brother Paul has wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks of these matters (salvation). There are some things in them hard to understand, WHICH THE IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE TWIST TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION, AS THEY DO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES." -- 2 Peter 3:15-16

Paul is speaking of those who will defeat death based upon the Doctrine that the Christ has delivered from heaven via inspiration of the Holy Spirit of Truth. The scriptures self define the subject matter, and creation is never mentioned as the subject matter....the subject matter is the salvation/resurrection of the dead in Christ with Christ being the first fruit......the 1st to defeat death.......but not the last, as death is not defeated, Hades does not give up its dead until the final judgment (Rev. 20:13)

How do we know this.......that Paul is addressing Jesus as the 1st fruit of those destined to defeat death? Read the preceeding vs. 1 Cor. 1512).......there were those in Corinth that were preaching the false message that there is NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD POSSIBLE. "Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the Dead?"

Reading futher after the Subject Matter has been presented (resurrection of the dead), " (Starting with vs.13)....But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching has been in vain and your faith is in vain.................(ending with vs. 20)........THE SUBJECT MATTER DEFINED and ITS NOT CREATION as being created first........."But IN FACT Christ has been raised from the dead..........the FIRST FRUITS OF THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP (deceased)." -- 1 Cor. 15:20 Jesus is the first Son of Man........Son of Adam to be rasied under the New Testament of Grace. The fact that Jesus pre-existed creation as the WORD of GOD and the LIGHT OF THE WORLD and the WORD came to earth (John 1) does not dismiss the fact that Jesus was BORN as a man, born under the law, born of a woman........(Gal. 4:4-7) And as the Son of God..........did not think it robbery to be the equal of God. (Phil. 2:6) Jesus was in the form of God before His incarantion on earth. God is eternal........He was never created.

The bible said he was created-Prov 8: 22-25--this is the being the true God sent=Gods master worker-none other can claim that title except the one beside God during creation process. The one God created all other things through. The Firstborn of all creation--its your religions twisting it into lies.

 

[Clyde 154]

The bible said he was created-Prov 8: 22-25--this is the being the true God sent=Gods master worker-none other can claim that title except the one beside God during creation process. The one God created all other things through. The Firstborn of all creation--its your religions twisting it into lies.

LMAO, Now the Lord Jesus is a SHE? Just where have you been trained in the subject of "Reading Comprehension"? You "cherry pick" a couple of sentences from Prov. 8 and declare that the subject is addressing the creation of the Lord Jesus Christ? Again I must point you to 2 Peter 3:15-16

to your cults own destruction...........you attempt to twist the Subject Matter and separate it from the actual context. Read the "entire" content of Prov. 8. The Subject Matter is speaking of "WISDOM", with wisdom being the work of the Lord from the beginning of creation. What do you assume "Does not Wisdom Call" means in establishing the subject matter of Prov. 8.......the very first line defines the subject matter Wisdom (Prov.8:1) directly followed by "Understanding/Comprehension" (Prov. 8:2).....and the subject matter is addressed as "SHE". ".......at the crossroads SHE takes a stand", "Beside the gates in front of Town, at the entrance of the protals SHE cries aloud" (Prov. 8:3)

Going directly to the middle of Prov. 8 we find WISDOM is still being addressed as the subject matter, "I, Wisdom, dwell with prudence....." (Prov. 8:12)

Its WISDOM/UNDERSTANDING/COMPREHENSION that, "The Lord possessed at the beginning of His work......." (Prov. 8:22)

The funniest thing when you attempt to declare that Prov. 8 is speaking about the Lord Jesus being created? The entirety of Prov. 8 is addressing the subject matter as SHE.

I defy you to present one line of scripture in the entire canon of the O.T. and the N.T where the Lord Jesus is defined as "SHE"

 

[kjw47]

LMAO, Now the Lord Jesus is a SHE? Just where have you been trained in the subject of "Reading Comprehension"? You "cherry pick" a couple of sentences from Prov. 8 and declare that the subject is addressing the creation of the Lord Jesus Christ? Again I must point you to 2 Peter 3:15-16

to your cults own destruction...........you attempt to twist the Subject Matter and separate it from the actual context. Read the "entire" content of Prov. 8. The Subject Matter is speaking of "WISDOM", with wisdom being the work of the Lord from the beginning of creation. What do you assume "Does not Wisdom Call" means in establishing the subject matter of Prov. 8.......the very first line defines the subject matter Wisdom (Prov.8:1) directly followed by "Understanding/Comprehension" (Prov. 8:2).....and the subject matter is addressed as "SHE". ".......at the crossroads SHE takes a stand", "Beside the gates in front of Town, at the entrance of the protals SHE cries aloud" (Prov. 8:3)

Going directly to the middle of Prov. 8 we find WISDOM is still being addressed as the subject matter, "I, Wisdom, dwell with prudence....." (Prov. 8:12)

Its WISDOM/UNDERSTANDING/COMPREHENSION that, "The Lord possessed at the beginning of His work......." (Prov. 8:22)

The funniest thing when you attempt to declare that Prov. 8 is speaking about the Lord Jesus being created? The entirety of Prov. 8 is addressing the subject matter as SHE.

I defy you to present one line of scripture in the entire canon of the O.T. and the N.T where the Lord Jesus is defined as "SHE"

Gods master worker is not called a she- Wisdom might be but not Gods master worker.
You just twist everything in your lack of true knowledge. Because your teachers do the same.
Wisdom is not a living being-Gods master worker is.