Zone1 The Problem of Evil

[SweetSue92]

And how does that prove the universe has meaning or purpose?

We had to communicate in order to survive. We learned to use language as a survival tool. We learned to plan our actions using if then reasoning. None of that has any effect on the universe nor does our evolution imply the universe has a purpose.

We could be wiped out of existence tomorrow and the universe wouldn't know or care

You are using caring, knowing and meaning interchangeably but they are not the same.

I might not know about something but that does not mean it is meaningless.
I might not care about something but that does not mean it's meaningless.

In a purposeless universe what would be the point of survival?

I don't think you've confronted "purposeless".

 

[Grumblenuts]

In a purposeless universe what would be the point of survival?

You have yet to accept the possibility that it may not be about us.. at all. The universe does its thing. We do ours.

 

[BreezeWood]

You are so wacko no one can make sense of your posts. You may as well belong to the Flat Earth Society, but even they wouldn't want you after interviewing you..

really, you've been asked where they are available to read - the etched tablets from the heavens.

how hard can that be to read - you know perfectly well those tablets and inscriptions never existed.

- the desert 10 commandments madeup and used for salacious purposes far removed from the wellbeing the original, destroyed tablets if they did exist surly would have been used for.

 

[BreezeWood]

You have yet to accept the possibility that it may not be about us.. at all. The universe does its thing. We do ours.

life and the universe are interrelated - just not proportional.

physiology is a metaphysical substance that will appear wherever conditions are favorable and is controlled by its spiritual content.

 

[james bond]

Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Moses 1:33
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.


In these three verses we see that through Jesus Christ, God made the worlds. This would indicate that there are more worlds than just this earth. If these worlds were populated with children of God also, then I would bet that they also went through a fall and committed evil acts in order to learn good and evil. Perhaps they too had their own Satanic character to tempt them. So to assume that Lucifer was the first being ever to do evil may be a bit presumptuous. I don't find anywhere in scripture that Lucifer was absolutely the first being ever in all eternity past to have committed evil.

Again, evil in principle exists and becomes something that is real when good exists and becomes real. They are opposites and if you create one then the other automatically exists. If I were to create a law, by nature of creating that law I have created the opposite of obeying that law. A choice, given free will, allows one to obey or disobey the law. I believe evil has existed for as long as good has existed as a potential choice as long as free will has been practiced. I also believe that since Christ has made worlds without number that the chances of those worlds also being peopled is great and that those people would have to learn good from evil to progress and thus evil is likely to have existed there as well. Perhaps even way before Lucifer started his rebellion.

Perhaps the difference between what you believe and what I believe is that you believe evil only exists when evil is chosen whereas I believe evil exists if it is possible to choose it. I think you believe that Lucifer was the first to choose evil where I believe that even though we don't have a knowledge of all eternity past, others could have chosen it before.

The existence of evil is not a problem. Getting people not to choose it is the real problem. The Problem of Evil is a philosophy which seeks to prove God doesn't exist. It is not the fact that evil exists.

God made only moral humans and angels. And we know God punished the angels who rebelled against Him. There are no other creatures that have morals. There may be other beings with morals living somewhere besides Earth, but we don't know of any. We haven't even found an microbe or non-moral creatures while we can find microbes living in the desert here.

 

[onefour1]

One of the big problems I see with The Problem of Evil is that it makes the assumption that Omnipotence or being all powerful means that God can do absolutely anything imaginable. I don't buy that assumption. I think God is all powerful in that he can do all things that are possible. In other words, I believe that there are things that God cannot do that make sense and are imaginable. For example, can God create out of nothing a self-existent being? But I also do not believe that God creates out of nothing or ex nihilo creation. To watch a series of videos on the problem with ex nihilo creation just click the link.

I think The Problem of Evil makes a good point in that if God could create all things from nothing and that if God could have created us all from nothing and also has the power to create us to exactly what he wants us to be, then he should have created us to be exactly like Himself. If God can do anything imaginable, then he should have been able to do so. He should have created each one of us to already know and understand good and evil and to be perfectly strong in our free will to not choose evil ever. We should all be Gods without going through all the pain, suffering, and even death we find in this world. He should have created us to be perfect like Himself from the start. He could have created us to be Omniscient or all knowing so that we don't have to go through a growing experience or learning experience. He could have made us to already know everything. He could have made us to be Omnibenevolent or all kind and loving beings. Why make an inferior product when you can make a perfect product? Does God have the power to make perfect like himself or is he powerless to do so?

From the revelations in my faith, we learn that mankind of themselves began as a self existent being know as an intelligence. Spirit matter was used through the process of procreation to bring about children of God who were made in the image of God. The spirit matter given to these intelligences is inseparably connected to these intelligences and are eternal in nature. This process is repeated on earth, our spirits are given added course matter that is not inseparable connected as mortals through the process of procreation here on earth. However, through the grace of Jesus Christ, we all will one day resurrect and our course matter bodies will be inseparable connected to our spirits and we will become immortal. A gift of God to all who are born here on this earth. Through the inseparably combining of spirit and element, we believe that we can receive a fulness of joy.

If our self-existing intelligences are not perfect then they can be subject to corruption unless they learn to choose good over evil. God has set up this temporary mortal existence so that we can learn good and evil and learn to choose good over evil and become more like God himself. If God were to force us all to be good, we would not have free will but we would be nothing but robots. To truly become a good being one must learn to choose good in and of himself and this is the reason that God does not force us to be good. The down side of this is that some may choose to do evil and love evil more than good. The choice between good and evil is a choice all must make. Free will is essential to our spiritual growth. For this reason even those in heaven have free will as we have seen Lucifer himself choose to rebel against God.

Finally we do not believe that evil as the opposite of good can be eliminated. True we can choose not to do evil, but the principle of evil always exists and is the opposite of good which is a principle that always exists. In order to eliminate the principle of evil one would of necessity need to eliminate the principle of good. That is something that God does not want to happen. God concentrates on having good and trying to others to choose for themselves to only follow after the good. In my faith those are a summary of the reason we think The Problem of Evil argument is flawed.

 

[Grumblenuts]

life and the universe are interrelated - just not proportional.

physiology is a metaphysical substance that will appear wherever conditions are favorable and is controlled by its spiritual content.

I rest my case.

You have yet to accept the possibility that it may not be about us.. at all. The universe does its thing. We do ours.

Btw, there's nothing "metaphysical" about a caterpillar transforming into a butterfly. It retains its DNA. The only code required to initiate and control each phase of the process.

 

[Clyde 154]

Your history lesson of ALL TRUTH being delivered in the first century is simply false. ALL TRUTH would include a knowledge of absolutely everything that has ever existed. That simply is not the case unless there has been a great lack of recording it all and we today are way less knowledgeable than the people of the first century. The first century folks must have had the equivalent knowledge of God since they had ALL TRUTH.

Nice dodge! Trying paint me as if I am saying that Christ failed! What a crock of malarkey. I have never said that Christ failed. Because I teach of an apostasy you say that I teach that Christ failed? NO. Mankind, just as Adam from the beginning, have been given free will to choose. If mankind chooses to reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is not a failure on the part Jesus or his Father. If you supposition were correct, then you must believe that God and Christ have failed since Cain and Judas failed. Your painting me as if I believe such baloney is nothing but a lie. It is possible under free will that mankind can be led away from the truth of the gospel and fall away and sin. It is possible that if nobody was worthy to be an Apostle or Prophet or hold the priesthood of God that the priesthood could be removed from the earth. This would not be because Christ has failed but because mankind has free will and can fall away. Do you not think it possible that mankind could fall away from the teachings of Christ to the point where they apostatize from his church? You don't think that is possible given the free will God has given mankind? You write as if I believe Jesus was a failure in his atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world. That is a lie. I have never preached such in my lifetime. Christ has never failed. He is the redeemer of the world. If you knew anything about my faith you would know that we preach of Christ and his saving grace all the time. Our church is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What is your church called? It is not me but you who thinks that if mankind chose of their own free will to fall away and the church was made to go into the wilderness that it means Jesus failed. No, Jesus didn't fail. He simply restored his church when mankind was ready to receive it again so that they could once again receive the saving ordinances of his gospel through worthy priesthood holders. You also make the false claim that we believe that Joseph Smith was mediator to replace Jesus Christ. Another one of your lies. We do not believe that Joseph was a mediator (notice the spelling) but simply a prophet of God. Joseph was called as a prophet to restore what was lost after the Apostles of Christ were murdered and the church fell into a state of apostasy. No mediator (notice the spelling) to it. Jesus Christ has and always will be our mediator between us and our Father in heaven. You paint nothing but lies in your reply. Nice try but your dodge did not work. Jesus is the Christ and that is what we have always taught. And just because there needed to be a restitution of all things does not imply that Jesus failed. That is your misreading of what I have said.

Just how can I lie about the content of the Holy Bible when it reads the same for both you and "I"? I presented the Book, Chapter and Verse recorded by the Apostles of Christ. What? The Bible is flawed? Then why is it that YOUR CULT is found guilty of plagiarizing the King James Translation of the Holy Scriptures.......errors of transcription and All? And why would a 19th century Angel sent by Jesus decide that American English was not desired in this supposedly INSPIRED BY GOD.......new book of revelations? Why would God use a Bible that is full of flaws, as professed by YOU?

Why quote from an antiquated DEAD LANGUAGE used in the middle ages, used by those of Europe? Why would God not use American English to enlighten American People? Why did Joseph Smith not use a modern translation such as the NASB or even the New King James translation that reads comprehensible English?

God is not the author of "confusion". "For God is not the author of confusion.........." -- 1 Cor. 14:33

What about evil?
Evil is a problem.......indeed, for the atheist. Look at the defining elements of evil.........all come from God, defining both righteousness and evil in the revelations called the Holy Scriptures......the product of which are the 10 commandments of righteousness, used by majority by every civlized nation on earth to define what their societies project as IMMORALITY.

Man is responsible for evil actions...God simply defines evil in law.....no law can end crime, it simply defines crime. Its man that was made in the Image of God (a spiritual image) that has access to the same decision making capacities as the God Head.....man is endowed with FREE WILL and has the capacity to choose right from wrong, "Then the Lord God said, 'Man has become as one of US.........knowing Good from Evil................" -- Genesis 3:22


Again........accordinig to Darwinism, understood completely by the supposed atheist there are 5 basic tenets of Natualism. 1. No gods exist that are worth having. 2. no life after death exists 3. no "absolute" foundation for ethics exist in nature. 4. no "ultimate" meaning in life exists.....its all based upon chance survival of the fittest species. 5. Lastly.......no human free will exists, its all about survival, men are driven by the instinct to survive.........not by law, not by a moral code that could not have ever evolved from nature.

Logically........how could the athesit comprehend and label any action of man as being evil......when its all about survival of the fittest species? How could the Naturalist then label that which is GOOD if no evil can exist in nature? Again.......the laws of God define Good and Evil, man chooses to act upon either..........without Law sin (evil)does not exist, as in nature.........no animal can sin because they are incapable of comprehending good and evil. Both evil and good are clearly defined by God.

 

[BreezeWood]

I rest my case.

Btw, there's nothing "metaphysical" about a caterpillar transforming into a butterfly. It retains its DNA. The only code required to initiate and control each phase of the process.

really -

that process from beginning to end is nothing but metaphysical -

the point being the physiology is dissolved and reconfigured by its spiritual component - as in not the dissolved brain - as grunblenuts would undoubtedly postulate if the cns were in existence at that time.

I rest my case.

physiology is a metaphysical substance that will appear wherever conditions are favorable and is controlled by its spiritual content.

what case was that, grumble ...

 

[SweetSue92]

You have yet to accept the possibility that it may not be about us.. at all. The universe does its thing. We do ours.

You don't accept that possibility either. Or at any rate, you talk a game your life doesn't reflect.

 

[Grumblenuts]

You don't accept that possibility either. Or at any rate, you talk a game your life doesn't reflect.

Wtf, "Or"?.. you got nothin? I know.

 

[SweetSue92]

Wtf, "Or"?.. you got nothin? I know.

You and the Blue Man go right back to "the universe doesn't care". Yeah no kidding, floating rocks don't care. That doesn't speak to meaning or PURPOSE. You lead your life as if it has purpose--so do we all. So has humanity all down through time. We don't live our lives as if we're destined to feed worms in a neverending loop of nothingness. You know it, the Blue Man knows it, and that's why you all get mad about it.

 

[Grumblenuts]

You lead your life as if it has purpose--so do we all. So has humanity all down through time.

Some more than others. Rocks in space? None. Caterpillars? Evolving into butterflies for some. As their evolved DNA programming instructs their biochemistry to do. The universe? Appears to be going nowhere fast. Why would that require a purpose?

Beyond growing and multiplying, I haven't noticed much purpose to life. It's dog eat dog. No guarantees. It's just what you make of it. Every day. For me, that amounts to plenty. I wish the same for everyone, but I'm no god.

Watch the "Human Nature" film now out on Netflix. Then consider the purpose of mosquitos and viruses. Same as ours or no?

 

[SweetSue92]

Some more than others. Rocks in space? None. Caterpillars? Evolving into butterflies for some. As their evolved DNA programming instructs their biochemistry to do. The universe? Appears to be going nowhere fast. Why would that require a purpose?

Beyond growing and multiplying, I haven't noticed much purpose to life. It's dog eat dog. No guarantees. It's just what you make of it. Every day. For me, that amounts to plenty. I wish the same for everyone, but I'm no god.

Watch the "Human Nature" film now out on Netflix. Then consider the purpose of mosquitos and viruses. Same as ours or no?

Mosquitos and viruses just go on making more of themselves. That's all they know how to do.

They don't ponder good and evil. They don't create language and painting and poetry and art and music.

All of which have no purpose in a purposeless universe. In a purposeless universe there is no point in good and evil; such thoughts would be silly at best. Yet they are not. We are here--YOU are here--arguing for them nearly every day.

You have to have a really big imagination to truly fathom a purposeless universe. You're mad at God, so you think you have it. I don't think you're even close.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Mosquitos and viruses just go on making more of themselves. That's all they know how to do.

They don't ponder good and evil. They don't create language and painting and poetry and art and music.

All of which have no purpose in a purposeless universe. In a purposeless universe there is no point in good and evil; such thoughts would be silly at best. Yet they are not. We are here--YOU are here--arguing for them nearly every day.

You have to have a really big imagination to truly fathom a purposeless universe. You're mad at God, so you think you have it. I don't think you're even close.

They have purpose because we insist upon being, like King Charles, the ultimate purpose of everything.. in our collective conceit. Hey, perhaps we're actually far from being at the center of the solar system, galaxy, cluster, known universe.. Maybe evolution has selected for the most pathetically spoiled and insecure generally.. Maybe only the truest believing, born again Christians will actually "be saved" and the rest "burn in hell," whatever that's supposed to mean. It's never sounded very "Christian" to me. I know that much. "mad at God"? Pffft! Believe whatever floats your dinghy. I don't care.

 

[Blues Man]

What you think of as evil is subjective and WRONG. I have the Ten Commandments and law and order in societies around the world.

Like I said we have never had law and order.

Murder, slavery, genocides, rape and countless other crimes have always been part of the human experience and always will be.

Therefore one must conclude that these behaviors are all normal and predictable in any human society. It's just what humans do and what they will always do.

ALL human behavior exists on a continuum

 

[Blues Man]

You are using caring, knowing and meaning interchangeably but they are not the same.

I might not know about something but that does not mean it is meaningless.
I might not care about something but that does not mean it's meaningless.

In a purposeless universe what would be the point of survival?

I don't think you've confronted "purposeless".

Humans define their own purpose.

Does the Universe Have a Purpose?

Why we insist it does, and why it's okay that it most probably doesn't.

www.psychologytoday.com

Our human sense of purpose is not dependent on the universe having a purpose

 

[Grumblenuts]

^Now that's a great article.

It's truly the height of irony that all evidence points to the true nature of nature being something utterly intangible -- the Aether. And, secondarily, that Einstein briefly dismissed it as "unnecessary." But that's life.

 

[james bond]

Like I said we have never had law and order.

Murder, slavery, genocides, rape and countless other crimes have always been part of the human experience and always will be.

Therefore one must conclude that these behaviors are all normal and predictable in any human society. It's just what humans do and what they will always do.

ALL human behavior exists on a continuum

We've always had to have law and order because of the first sin. Once the first sin happened then all humans and the rest of God's creatures were in danger of "Murder, slavery, genocides..."

It goes to show that we need to have the Ten Commandments and laws which based on it.

Anyway, I know what I am talking about and history backs me up while you don't even know what you are talking about. Nothing backs you up. It's just stupid and worthless crazy opinion.

 

[james bond]

Our human sense of purpose is not dependent on the universe having a purpose

As I see it, the universe now has the purpose of survival in case the Earth becomes inhabitable. It also has a purpose of humans being able to explore new worlds to see if there is other life. It provides technological and scientific challenges which leads to breakthroughs.