Zone1 The Problem of Evil

[BreezeWood]

Of course they are.

All human behavior exists on a continuum there is no good or evil man just is what he is. when you name the good you create the bad.

And FYI we never have really has law and order in any society. Human behavior is human behavior no matter how many cops you have on the streets or how many laws you pass.

you've just not experienced the night thief that steals your soul ... and you are left to defeat what was done to you or perish with what someone else stole from you. the chance for life in the everlasting.

those sad people see growing in them what you deny and many use against them to make the matters worse and more difficult - their hope to overcome what they did not want - true evil.

 

[james bond]

You did say that evil didn't always exist. From that statement I took it that you meant that at some time in the past there was absolutely no such thing as evil.

Evil didn't always exist. It was God who always existed. Evil came into the world when God created angels and Lucifer and his followers rebelled against God. God created hell for them to be banished to.

My reasoning is simply that if good exists, evil would have to exist.

Not when God is the only one to exist. The Bible states evil came into the world when Lucifer and his followers rebelled. Maybe you meant that with free choice that there is evil. With humans, the evil came with Adam and Eve's choice. From their disobeying God's one command of not eating the forbidden fruit, our Earth and universe became ridden with sin,

What if Adam and Eve didn't eat the forbidden fruit? Then, we wouldn't have sin and I think God would be still with us on Earth and in the universe. Would the Problem of Evil still exist?

Is there a way to get rid of the Problem of Evil?

 

[Grumblenuts]

The Bible states evil came into the world when Lucifer and his followers rebelled. Maybe you meant that with free choice that there is evil. With humans, the evil came with Adam and Eve's choice. From their disobeying God's one command of not eating the forbidden fruit, our Earth and universe became ridden with sin,

Any idiot knows that the first thing a child will try to do as soon as one leaves the room is the very thing they were told not to do last. Creating "Evil" over such minor, predictable behavior s a ridiculous overreaction, suggestive of descriptors like control freak, unjust, abusive, evil, beyond sin. Your "God" sounds like a real dickhead who belongs behind bars. "Lucifer and his followers" rebelling seems quite justified.

 

[onefour1]

Evil didn't always exist. It was God who always existed. Evil came into the world when God created angels and Lucifer and his followers rebelled against God. God created hell for them to be banished to.


Not when God is the only one to exist. The Bible states evil came into the world when Lucifer and his followers rebelled. Maybe you meant that with free choice that there is evil. With humans, the evil came with Adam and Eve's choice. From their disobeying God's one command of not eating the forbidden fruit, our Earth and universe became ridden with sin,

What if Adam and Eve didn't eat the forbidden fruit? Then, we wouldn't have sin and I think God would be still with us on Earth and in the universe. Would the Problem of Evil still exist?

Is there a way to get rid of the Problem of Evil?

Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Moses 1:33
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.


In these three verses we see that through Jesus Christ, God made the worlds. This would indicate that there are more worlds than just this earth. If these worlds were populated with children of God also, then I would bet that they also went through a fall and committed evil acts in order to learn good and evil. Perhaps they too had their own Satanic character to tempt them. So to assume that Lucifer was the first being ever to do evil may be a bit presumptuous. I don't find anywhere in scripture that Lucifer was absolutely the first being ever in all eternity past to have committed evil.

Again, evil in principle exists and becomes something that is real when good exists and becomes real. They are opposites and if you create one then the other automatically exists. If I were to create a law, by nature of creating that law I have created the opposite of obeying that law. A choice, given free will, allows one to obey or disobey the law. I believe evil has existed for as long as good has existed as a potential choice as long as free will has been practiced. I also believe that since Christ has made worlds without number that the chances of those worlds also being peopled is great and that those people would have to learn good from evil to progress and thus evil is likely to have existed there as well. Perhaps even way before Lucifer started his rebellion.

Perhaps the difference between what you believe and what I believe is that you believe evil only exists when evil is chosen whereas I believe evil exists if it is possible to choose it. I think you believe that Lucifer was the first to choose evil where I believe that even though we don't have a knowledge of all eternity past, others could have chosen it before.

The existence of evil is not a problem. Getting people not to choose it is the real problem. The Problem of Evil is a philosophy which seeks to prove God doesn't exist. It is not the fact that evil exists.

 

[Grumblenuts]

A choice, given free will, allows one to obey or disobey the law.

So "His" choice was to create laws that punish others for choosing the things that "He" didn't approve of after granting them the ability to do so. Big of "Him."

Bear in mind that the so-called "Forbidden Fruit" was not poison. It was supposedly from "The Tree of Knowledge." Your "God" got all pissed off because they chose "Knowledge" over blissful ignorance. Original Sin? Evil? WTF?

 

[james bond]

Any idiot knows that the first thing a child will try to do as soon as one leaves the room is the very thing they were told not to do last. Creating "Evil" over such minor, predictable behavior s a ridiculous overreaction, suggestive of descriptors like control freak, unjust, abusive, evil, beyond sin. Your "God" sounds like a real dickhead who belongs behind bars. "Lucifer and his followers" rebelling seems quite justified.

You just stated the Problem of Evil and that is some people will blame God for it.

You have to remember that Satan was REALLY EVIL in going after the first two humans. For evil to exist, there has to be an act. Just thinking it and not acting on it doesn't do it.

If the "first" human sin was Cain murdering his brother Abel, then it wouldn't have affected everyone. Evil didn't exist in humans as God wanted to live with humans and that was His purpose. He was there with Adam and Eve and He had to create not eating the fruit from the ToK as part of their free will choice for evil. There was no evil or else God wouldn't be there. It was only after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit that evil came into existence and God left the Earth and the universe forever.

 

[onefour1]

Bear in mind that the so-called "Forbidden Fruit" was not poison. It was supposedly from "The Tree of Knowledge." Your "God" got all pissed off because they chose "Knowledge" over blissful ignorance. Original Sin? Evil? WTF?

I don't think God got all pissed off but that He put the tree in the garden and gave the command to not partake of it so that mankind would fall. God, knowing the future before it occurs, would not have placed the tree in the garden and given the command to not eat from it if he didn't want them to partake of the fruit. God gave them the command knowing full well that they would partake of it and this allowed him to justifiably put them into a state of mortality. God warned them and also told them they had the free will to choose. He already knew that Satan would tempt them and they would choose not to disobey His command. But for mankind to progress and become more like God, they needed to come to know both good and evil. God just knew the weakness of his children and that they needed to experience the bad to appreciate the good. He also wanted them to learn to overcome evil of their own free will in order to become stronger beings of good. God could not simply put an eternal being into a state of mortality without them transgressing a law. This why he gave them the command to not eat of the tree. It allowed God to be justified in causing Adam and Eve to enter a mortal state but all the while knowing that going through with this mortal state could make mankind stronger against evil and give them a first hand knowledge of good and evil. We know that God knew they would fall before the foundation of the world because Jesus Christ was called and foreordained to be the Savior before Adam and Eve ever set foot in the garden. If God never wanted the fall, why put two innocent beings who know nothing about good and evil into a garden with a tree that if eaten from will put them into a mortal state and also place an enemy to God there to tempt them to go against Him? If God wanted to avoid it, he would have made Satan and his minions to go directly to hell and not given Adam and Eve the choice to partake of the forbidden fruit. So, no I don't think God got pissed.

 

[Grumblenuts]

It allowed God to be justified in causing Adam and Eve to enter a mortal state but all the while knowing that going through with this mortal state could make mankind stronger against evil and give them a first hand knowledge of good and evil.

Justified to whom. Who was "He" trying to impress?

 

[onefour1]

Justified to whom. Who was "He" trying to impress?

God, who established his kingdom in heaven requires all who enter therein to abide by laws of goodness, fairness, happiness, etc. It would be unfair to take a being who is living an immortal happy existence into a mortal existence where they are subject to death and all manner of evil unless it was justifiable. God warned Adam and Eve that if they partook of the forbidden fruit that in the day they partook they would surely die. Soon after they partook they were cast out into the lone and dreary world and were subject to illness and hardship and eventually death. I think they died as pertaining to immortal life instantly but they also died within one day according to God's reckoning of 1000 of our days = 1 day to the Lord. Adam died when he was 930 years old.

2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So it was justifiable to cause Adam and Eve to enter mortality and die because God not only warned them not eat of the tree but also told them what the consequences would be. He gave them their free will to choose and they chose to not obey the command. The command came from God who will not lie. It is interesting that Eve, when tempted, was tempted with both the truth and a lie. She was told that they would not die and that they would become as the gods, knowing good and evil. God already told them that they would die and they did end up dying so that was a lie by Satan. But becoming like God knowing good and evil was a truth for God then said:

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Adam and Eve, while in the garden, walked and talked with God face to face and could see him probably in his glory. It must have been some temptation for Eve to contemplate being like God. But also she didn't even know what death was and had never had anyone around her experience it before. She also had never experienced a liar before. So I can see that it was quite easy for her to want to be like God and partook of the fruit.

 

[onefour1]

You would think if God didn't want it, He also would have told Adam and Eve not to listen to that Satan guy.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Of course one can go round and round forever creating such excuses for "Him." I prefer looking at it from the perspective of those who stood to gain most by concocting such stories, whether to be "opiates for the masses" or perhaps just to retain power over small groups. I see lots of projection going on between the lines. It makes perfect sense for those who've somehow obtained a bit more power, wealth, or celebrity than most to concoct fantastic stories so as to retain or enhance their advantage while having to expend far less physical effort than the norm. But they couldn't help projecting many of their very human desires and fears onto their characters, including "God" of course.

I'll just leave it at that. Thanks for your lengthy, cordial, thought provoking responses.

 

[Blues Man]

Like I said, you are SAF and POS. You just make up whatever. There is no evidence to back up any of your thoughts. You can be IGNORED as what you say is USELESS.

You have no evidence that a thing called evil exists all you have is what YOU label as evil and that is subjective.

 

[Blues Man]

Right.

Because we wanted to convey....meaning

And how does that prove the universe has meaning or purpose?

We had to communicate in order to survive. We learned to use language as a survival tool. We learned to plan our actions using if then reasoning. None of that has any effect on the universe nor does our evolution imply the universe has a purpose.

We could be wiped out of existence tomorrow and the universe wouldn't know or care

 

[Blues Man]

you've just not experienced the night thief that steals your soul ... and you are left to defeat what was done to you or perish with what someone else stole from you. the chance for life in the everlasting.

those sad people see growing in them what you deny and many use against them to make the matters worse and more difficult - their hope to overcome what they did not want - true evil.

Soul like self is but an illusion

 

[Grumblenuts]

If the "first" human sin was Cain murdering his brother Abel, then it wouldn't have affected everyone. Evil didn't exist in humans as God wanted to live with humans and that was His purpose. He was there with Adam and Eve and He had to create not eating the fruit from the ToK as part of their free will choice for evil. There was no evil or else God wouldn't be there. It was only after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit that evil came into existence and God left the Earth and the universe forever.

Just took his ball and went home in a huff, ay?

 

[ding]

In philosophy, there is a famous argument against the existence of God that goes something like this:

God is a being who is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenevolent (all loving and all good). If God is all powerful, He would certainly have the power to rid the universe of evil. If God is all knowing, He would certainly know how to rid the universe of evil. If God is an all good and loving being, He certainly would not allow the evil in the universe to exist. So, if God exists, then there should be no evil in all the universe. Evil exists therefore there is no God.

Also when giving the answer that man is imperfect and has been given free will and this is why evil exists, I have heard the response that if God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, he should have created us to be perfect like himself and we shouldn't have imperfection. In other words, why didn't God simply create us all as perfect beings? It is argued that if God is omnibenevolent he should have created us all perfect and spared us the pain, suffering and death we experience in this world.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, our scriptures give us answer to this philosophical argument and I will express those in following posts. In this thread I want to hear from all those who believe in God what their answers are to this philosophical argument.

MLK Jr. responds:

"We are never to think of God's power in terms of what he could conceivably do by the exercise of what we may call sheer omnipotence which crushes all obstacles in its path. We are always to think of God's power in terms of his purpose. If what he did by sheer omnipotence defeated his purpose, then, however startling and impressive, it would be an expression of weakness, not of power. Indeed, a good definition of power is "ability to achieve purpose. This applies to the power of a gun, or a drug, or an argument, or even a sermon! Does it achieve its end? Does it fulfill its purpose?

We must realize that God's power is not put forward to get certain things done, but to get them done in a certain way, and with certain results in the lives of those who do them. We can see this clearly in human illustrations. My purpose in doing a crossword puzzle is not to fill in certain words. I could fill them in easily by waiting for tomorrow morning's paper. Filling them in without the answers is harder but much more satisfying, for it calls out resourcefulness, ingenuity, and discipline which by the easier way would find no self expression."

"Religion's Answer to the Problem of Evil"

kinginstitute.stanford.edu

 

[james bond]

You have no evidence that a thing called evil exists all you have is what YOU label as evil and that is subjective.

What you think of as evil is subjective and WRONG. I have the Ten Commandments and law and order in societies around the world.

 

[james bond]

Just took his ball and went home in a huff, ay?

God can't make a mistake, but you can.

 

[BreezeWood]

What you think of as evil is subjective and WRONG. I have the Ten Commandments and law and order in societies around the world.

really, you've been asked where they are available to read - the etched tablets from the heavens.

or, the tablets that never existed and you are invested in commandments made up by a liar and murderer, moses.

what could be more evil, and is proven by the uninterrupted history by the desert religions of persecution and victimization of the innocent. bond.

God can't make a mistake, but you can.

the heavens are pure, not insulated from error - just not an error of an evil nature ... the reason why the spirit must accomplish their prescribed religion of antiquity - for its admission.

 

[james bond]

really, you've been asked where they are available to read - the etched tablets from the heavens.

or, the tablets that never existed and you are invested in commandments made up by a liar and murderer, moses.

what could be more evil, and is proven by the uninterrupted history by the desert religions of persecution and victimization of the innocent. bond.



the heavens are pure, not insulated from error - just not an error of an evil nature ... the reason why the spirit must accomplish their prescribed religion of antiquity - for its admission.

You are so wacko no one can make sense of your posts. You may as well belong to the Flat Earth Society, but even they wouldn't want you after interviewing you..