Zone1 The Problem of Evil

[Grumblenuts]

Blues Man did no such thing. He invoked rationality in a universe without meaning. It's an inherent contradiction. A world without meaning would not "evolve" or even imagine anything close to rational beings.

Fail.

That your final offer, Typhoid?

 

[SweetSue92]

That your final offer, Typhoid?

I accept your concession, and will remind you that:

1. Stealing others insults is weak and

2. This is a zone 1 forum

 

[Grumblenuts]

I accept your concession, and will remind you that:

1. Stealing others insults is weak and

2. This is a zone 1 forum

Done yet?

 

[Blues Man]

No, it isn't. It is what comes with free will. You are in denial and are SAF and POS. Why do you think we have the Ten Commandments? Why do we need law and order?

Of course they are.

All human behavior exists on a continuum there is no good or evil man just is what he is. when you name the good you create the bad.

And FYI we never have really has law and order in any society. Human behavior is human behavior no matter how many cops you have on the streets or how many laws you pass.

 

[Blues Man]

Your last sentence is contradictory.

If there is no meaning in the universe there can be no rationality. Rationality is meaning.

You couldn't even get this theory off the ground, to be honest.

A man can be rational in an uncaring universe. The universe just is what it is it doesn't care about the thoughts or desires of men.

Read The Myth of Sisyphus

 

[SweetSue92]

A man can be rational in an uncaring universe. The universe just is what it is it doesn't care about the thoughts or desires of men.

Read The Myth of Sisyphus

Uncaring does not equal no meaning.

Again you invoked "rational man" in a universe without MEANING. Do you intend to say without meaning, or merely uncaring?

Because you are right about planets, black holes and etc being uncaring. So what.

 

[Blues Man]

Uncaring does not equal no meaning.

Again you invoked "rational man" in a universe without MEANING. Do you intend to say without meaning, or merely uncaring?

Because you are right about planets, black holes and etc being uncaring. So what.

The universe has no meaning.

It has no purpose that we can define.

It just is what it is

It's people who have the need to imagine the universe has a purpose

 

[SweetSue92]

The universe has no meaning.

It has no purpose that we can define.

It just is what it is

It's people who have the need to imagine the universe has a purpose

Then you are a collection of organs. That's it. A pile of carbon, destined for either ashes or worm food. You have no meaning; the words that you are typing to me have no meaning.

A meaningless universe cannot produce anything of meaning.

I will remember that the next time you post anything. Your words, by your own definition, and your own worldview, are meaningless.

 

[Blues Man]

Then you are a collection of organs. That's it. A pile of carbon, destined for either ashes or worm food. You have no meaning; the words that you are typing to me have no meaning.

A meaningless universe cannot produce anything of meaning.

I will remember that the next time you post anything. Your words, by your own definition, and your own worldview, are meaningless.

The only meaning my life has is the one I as a rational being decide what that meaning is.

 

[SweetSue92]

The only meaning my life has is the one I as a rational being decide what that meaning is.

There can be no rational beings in a universe without meaning.

Therefore your words are meaningless, by your own worldview.

 

[Blues Man]

There can be no rational beings in a universe without meaning.

Therefore your words are meaningless, by your own worldview.

Of course there can. We as humans define the concept of rationality because it is a human construct.

Another being somewhere in the universe may and probably will have a different definition of the concept

 

[SweetSue92]

Of course there can. We as humans define the concept of rationality because it is a human construct.

Another being somewhere in the universe may and probably will have a different definition of the concept

You cannot invent rationality where there truly is none.

Hurting, brainwashed, and other types of people can deny it, though.

 

[Blues Man]

You cannot invent rationality where there truly is none.

Hurting, brainwashed, and other types of people can deny it, though.

Why not?

Humans invented the very language we use to communicate with each other.

We literally invented every word ever spoken and every definition of every word ever spoken.

 

[SweetSue92]

Why not?

Humans invented the very language we use to communicate with each other.

We literally invented every word ever spoken and every definition of every word ever spoken.

Right.

Because we wanted to convey....meaning

 

[Clyde 154]

True, Jesus Christ did in fact reveal his gospel when he came upon the earth in the 1st century A.D. But what you fail to understand is that after Christ came all the Apostles except John were murdered and the Church gradually fell into a state of apostasy. For a long time there was not a true Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth. Paul surely was an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. Of this you speak truly and these were the words of Paul:

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Here we read that in the true church of Jesus Christ, there would be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, etc who hold the priesthood of God to administer the gospel and do the work of the ministry for edifying of the body of Christ (which is his church). How long would these offices of the priesthood be needed in his church? Until we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Let me ask you if we have come to that unity yet? If not, then wouldn't you expect there to be Apostles and Prophets in the true church of Jesus Christ? What church since the death of the Apostles has had 12 Apostles or prophets? Tell me which Catholic or Protestant church has had the true church with 12 Apostles and Prophets? They haven't and that is one big sign that the true church of Jesus Christ fell into a state of apostasy. The Great Apostasy that occurred gradually after the Apostles were murdered was prophesied by Amos the Prophet of the old testament:

Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

Amos lived approximately 811 B.C. This didn't occur before his days but was prophesied to come after. The Apostle Paul in his day warned of those who were to come and turn away the flock:

Acts 20:29-30
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Again Paul taught:

Ephesians 2:19–22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:1–3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul tells us here that there would come a falling away from the church. Here are other verses warning of the falling away: Acts 12:1–3; 2 Timothy 4:3–4; 2 Peter 2:1–2.

John himself in his Revelation tells of the Great Apostasy from the church:

Revelation 12:5-6
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here the woman represents the church of Jesus Christ and the man child who eventually was to rule all nations was Jesus himself. He was caught up unto God and to his throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared of God. This is the church going away because of apostasy. It was to eventually be restored after a great deal of time.

The Apostle Peter prophesied of the church being restored to the earth after the great apostasy:

Acts 3:19–21
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Here we learn that there will be a time when Jesus Christ will restore all things. If we have had the gospel and the church of Jesus Christ since the death of all the Apostles, why would there be a need for the restitution of all things. That time was to come before Christ was to come again on the earth. When the time of the restitution of all things has come then Christ will in that time come again. So a restoration of the His gospel would come again on the earth by establishing his church again on the earth. True, much of the gospel has made it through the ages in the bible but the priesthood of God and his church need to again be reestablished in these latter days before the coming of our Lord and Savior happens again on this earth. The restitution of all things means that all things that Jesus finds important to restore will be restored in these latter days. In the church this time is also known as the dispensation of the fullness of times. Through the prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord has again restored his true church upon the face of the earth and it is again a church with Apostles and Prophets, etc.

Joseph Smith did not preach another gospel but restored the same gospel of Jesus Christ and his church upon the earth with all the authority of the priesthood to minister unto the body of Christ and to officiate in the ordinances of the gospel such as baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost until we all come to the unity of the faith.

A history lesson "after" "All TRUTH" was once delivered to "EVERYONE" in the 1st century.........providing "ALL THINGS" that pertain to "LIFE" and "GODLINESS"...........does not vacate the truth delivered in the 1st century. Truth does not evolve or it was never truth.

What you attempted was the common "deflection" in the hope of having someone chase your cult down the proverbial rabbit hole of excuses as to why YOU (Joseph Smith and the Mormon church et.al.) project the logical fallacy that because man refused to accept the truth as revealed in the 1st century that GOD failed in His mission of sacrificing HIS "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON" to atone for the sins of the world.....and JOE SMITH fixed it for GOD in the 19th century.

What you pointed out in your history lesson was already pointed out in the Holy Scriptures in the 1st century.......MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.....man's failures do not equate to a failure on the part of God, especially the God of creation who has already revealed His desire that ALL MEN BE SAVED by coming to the knowledge of the truth......(1 Tim. 2:4) with the TRUTH God is speaking of.....clearly addressed in the same passage, "..........for there is ONE GOD and ONE MEDIATOR between God and Man, "the MAN"......(not as God but as the Son of Man, that was tested as are all men and sinned not).......CHRIST JESUS." -- 1 Tim. 2:5

As stated earlier, God does not require (Joseph Smith, Mohammad, Buhda, the Pope or any other cult leader) as a mediator to hear the prayers of the sinner.......because there is only ONE MAN that ever qualified to stand in as a mediator for man's sin........THE MAN CHRIST JESUS WHO WALKED HIS ENTIRE HUMAN LIFE WITHOUT SIN.

The Scriptures are clear.........THE TRUTH was delivered ONCE that leads man into the knowlege that can save him.......and it did not take God 1800 years to correct the mistakes of men. The answer has been there all the time. Joseph Smith was a Con Artist seeking power, wealth, fame and self accolade. There is a great deal of the Book of Mormon that is directly parroted in a verbatim fashion from the King James Translation of Scripture......the book of Mormon was not inspired, it was plagiarized from those who were actually inspired by the Holy Spirit of God........the Apostles of Christ in the 1st century.

 

[james bond]

Of course they are.

All human behavior exists on a continuum there is no good or evil man just is what he is. when you name the good you create the bad.

And FYI we never have really has law and order in any society. Human behavior is human behavior no matter how many cops you have on the streets or how many laws you pass.

Like I said, you are SAF and POS. You just make up whatever. There is no evidence to back up any of your thoughts. You can be IGNORED as what you say is USELESS.

 

[onefour1]

I didn't say he invented it, so stop with your wrong beliefs. It's part of free will. If he was the first to rebel against God, then he was the first to bring it into the world and others followed which is what happened. He's the one who tempted Eve and lo and behold, we have original sin.

God responded to Lucifer becoming Satan by creating hell and place where he and his followers were banished.

Now, the Problem of Evil, i.e. blaming God for it, doesn't seem natural to me. I don't think it will just arise here, but maybe I am wrong. If there is free will, then it is upon the one who chooses whether to accept God and His will or go against Him.

You did say that evil didn't always exist. From that statement I took it that you meant that at some time in the past there was absolutely no such thing as evil. If you meant something else it wasn't clear to me in your statement. My reasoning is simply that if good exists, evil would have to exist. Maybe not practiced but in principle it exists. Since God is a good being, it is rational to me that evil has existed for as long as God has, at least in principle.

I believe that God has created other worlds besides this earth. I would imagine that if he has peopled these other worlds, that perhaps they too probably went through a fall and needed mercy as well. Maybe Lucifer wasn't the first to ever fall from heaven, we don't know. Evil may have occurred in other worlds or in heaven way before Lucifer's rebellion. The scriptures aren't clear on what else has transpired outside of the events of our world or the events related to Lucifer. I don't think the scriptures tell us that Lucifer's act of rebellion was the absolute first act of evil. No doubt that free will allows for one such as Lucifer or the rest of us to choose to not follow God. I don't blame God that evil exists, I simply realize that if God is going to have good, then the opposite is there as well. God's will is that we have good and even though the opposite will exist because good exists, his will is that we learn to choose to do good over evil.

 

[onefour1]

A history lesson "after" "All TRUTH" was once delivered to "EVERYONE" in the 1st century.........providing "ALL THINGS" that pertain to "LIFE" and "GODLINESS"...........does not vacate the truth delivered in the 1st century. Truth does not evolve or it was never truth.

What you attempted was the common "deflection" in the hope of having someone chase your cult down the proverbial rabbit hole of excuses as to why YOU (Joseph Smith and the Mormon church et.al.) project the logical fallacy that because man refused to accept the truth as revealed in the 1st century that GOD failed in His mission of sacrificing HIS "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON" to atone for the sins of the world.....and JOE SMITH fixed it for GOD in the 19th century.

What you pointed out in your history lesson was already pointed out in the Holy Scriptures in the 1st century.......MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.....man's failures do not equate to a failure on the part of God, especially the God of creation who has already revealed His desire that ALL MEN BE SAVED by coming to the knowledge of the truth......(1 Tim. 2:4) with the TRUTH God is speaking of.....clearly addressed in the same passage, "..........for there is ONE GOD and ONE MEDIATOR between God and Man, "the MAN"......(not as God but as the Son of Man, that was tested as are all men and sinned not).......CHRIST JESUS." -- 1 Tim. 2:5

As stated earlier, God does not require (Joseph Smith, Mohammad, Buhda, the Pope or any other cult leader) as a mediator to hear the prayers of the sinner.......because there is only ONE MAN that ever qualified to stand in as a mediator for man's sin........THE MAN CHRIST JESUS WHO WALKED HIS ENTIRE HUMAN LIFE WITHOUT SIN.

The Scriptures are clear.........THE TRUTH was delivered ONCE that leads man into the knowlege that can save him.......and it did not take God 1800 years to correct the mistakes of men. The answer has been there all the time. Joseph Smith was a Con Artist seeking power, wealth, fame and self accolade. There is a great deal of the Book of Mormon that is directly parroted in a verbatim fashion from the King James Translation of Scripture......the book of Mormon was not inspired, it was plagiarized from those who were actually inspired by the Holy Spirit of God........the Apostles of Christ in the 1st century.

Your history lesson of ALL TRUTH being delivered in the first century is simply false. ALL TRUTH would include a knowledge of absolutely everything that has ever existed. That simply is not the case unless there has been a great lack of recording it all and we today are way less knowledgeable than the people of the first century. The first century folks must have had the equivalent knowledge of God since they had ALL TRUTH.

Nice dodge! Trying paint me as if I am saying that Christ failed! What a crock of malarkey. I have never said that Christ failed. Because I teach of an apostasy you say that I teach that Christ failed? NO. Mankind, just as Adam from the beginning, have been given free will to choose. If mankind chooses to reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is not a failure on the part Jesus or his Father. If you supposition were correct, then you must believe that God and Christ have failed since Cain and Judas failed. Your painting me as if I believe such baloney is nothing but a lie. It is possible under free will that mankind can be led away from the truth of the gospel and fall away and sin. It is possible that if nobody was worthy to be an Apostle or Prophet or hold the priesthood of God that the priesthood could be removed from the earth. This would not be because Christ has failed but because mankind has free will and can fall away. Do you not think it possible that mankind could fall away from the teachings of Christ to the point where they apostatize from his church? You don't think that is possible given the free will God has given mankind? You write as if I believe Jesus was a failure in his atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world. That is a lie. I have never preached such in my lifetime. Christ has never failed. He is the redeemer of the world. If you knew anything about my faith you would know that we preach of Christ and his saving grace all the time. Our church is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What is your church called? It is not me but you who thinks that if mankind chose of their own free will to fall away and the church was made to go into the wilderness that it means Jesus failed. No, Jesus didn't fail. He simply restored his church when mankind was ready to receive it again so that they could once again receive the saving ordinances of his gospel through worthy priesthood holders. You also make the false claim that we believe that Joseph Smith was mediator to replace Jesus Christ. Another one of your lies. We do not believe that Joseph was a mediator (notice the spelling) but simply a prophet of God. Joseph was called as a prophet to restore what was lost after the Apostles of Christ were murdered and the church fell into a state of apostasy. No mediator (notice the spelling) to it. Jesus Christ has and always will be our mediator between us and our Father in heaven. You paint nothing but lies in your reply. Nice try but your dodge did not work. Jesus is the Christ and that is what we have always taught. And just because there needed to be a restitution of all things does not imply that Jesus failed. That is your misreading of what I have said.

 

[BreezeWood]

So, nobody wants to address the problem of evil? All I asked to hear about was your take on the Problem of Evil. I shared my take and nobody addresses the purpose of the thread but everyone wants to bash my faith. I am beginning to believe that you have no answer for it in your own faith.

- thats not more than simply your insufficient responses ...

as prescribed to a&e - triumph of good vs evil - for judgement and remission, their own self determination.

perfect is indefinable ... they like you have it wrong, the metaphysical residing in the everlasting is purity - that's how the spirit becomes free and how to become a part of the eternal for as long as that might last.

or that lds rather than an improvement is just another example of the madeup desert religions than the one prescribed by the heavens - they have all abandoned.

 

[BreezeWood]

It's incredulous that you do not get it.

some one is ...

truth is bond, you prefer the devil to ridding the evil yourself putting it to death as you refuse was the fate of satan than being judged for your own accomplishments - if indeed worthy through triumph for that purpose ...

for the simple minded - what happens to evil when the spirit does triumph over it ...

* bond - its put in a closet so it can escape because it was still alive and who can live without it.