Zone1 The Problem of Evil

[braalian]

Jesus Christ is fully capable of revealing his gospel to anyone he chooses. Even Joseph Smith. How is he a scourge on well-meaning people?????

No intelligent person can fail to see the ridiculousness of the Joseph Smith story. A prophecy only *he* could read? And when his “translation” was hidden, he couldn’t read the original anymore?

Best South Park moment ever was when they showed how Lucy Harris completely debunked Smith and no one listened to her.

 

[Grumblenuts]

A counterfeit does not prove there is no genuine

Doesn't prove there is one either. Speaking of being hidden, if I were a god, especially an omnipotent one, I sure wouldn't be hiding all the time, forcing my favorite creations to have faith in my very existence and making them fear going to hell if they don't.

Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount: “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.”

 

[SweetSue92]

Doesn't prove there is one either. Speaking of being hidden, if I were a god, especially an omnipotent one, I sure wouldn't be hiding all the time, forcing my favorite creations to have faith in my very existence and making them fear going to hell if they don't.

Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount: “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.”

God is not hiding. I do not fear going to Hell.

C.S. Lewis, former atheist, said it like this, in regard to God "hiding":

“God will invade. But I wonder whether people who ask God to interfere openly and directly in our world quite realise what it will be like when He does. When that happens, it is the end of the world. When the author walks on to the stage the play is over. God is going to invade, all right: but what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else - something it never entered your head to conceive - comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left? For this time it will God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing; it will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realised it before or not. Now, today, this moment, is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that chance. It will not last for ever. We must take it or leave it.”​

 

[Grumblenuts]

God is not hiding. I do not fear going to Hell.

C.S. Lewis, former atheist, said it like this, in regard to God "hiding":

“God will invade. But I wonder whether people who ask God to interfere openly and directly in our world quite realise what it will be like when He does. When that happens, it is the end of the world. When the author walks on to the stage the play is over. God is going to invade, all right: but what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else - something it never entered your head to conceive - comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left? For this time it will God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing; it will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realised it before or not. Now, today, this moment, is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that chance. It will not last for ever. We must take it or leave it.”​

Boy, talk truly is cheap. Even in fat, bold font.

 

[SweetSue92]

Boy, talk truly is cheap. Even in fat, bold font.

When you pick on the font you have nothing. I understand.

 

[Grumblenuts]

When you pick on the font you have nothing. I understand.

You're emulating your god's "Love." I understand.

 

[james bond]

So yes evil has always existed and it did not start with we mortal on this earth.

You missed the point. Evil didn't always exist. It started with Lucifer and his followers rebelling against God using their free will. It was due to ego and pride. Then they were banished to a place created for them called hell.

 

[onefour1]

Jesus Christ has "already" revealed His gospel to "everyone"...........and that revelation occured in the 1st century A.D., not in the early 19th century.

The Apostle of Christ confirms the fact that mankind has been given "everything" that pertains to LIFE and GODLINESS, "According to His (Jesus Christ) devine power has given unto us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness.........through the knowledge of Him that has called us to glory and viture:" -- 2 Peter 1:3

Next we find the Holy Spirit Inspired author of the book of Jude declare that the saints have "once delivered the faith" (Christian Faith) to the saints (at the time this book/epistle was being written). -- Jude 3

What more could Joseph Smith deliver as far as the faith of Christianity is concerned when the Holy Scriptures describe this faith as having been delivered by the saints (of the 1st century)..........ONCE with the Apostle Peter confirming that mankind had been given "ALL THINGS" (in the 1st century) that pertains to LIFE and GODLINESS?

No where is there a promise made that NEW REVELATIONS would be required for mankind to come to the knowledge of the Truth as God desires.........also note that that the Apostle of Christ explains that there is ONE "MEDEATOR" between God and mankind, and that Man is Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 2:1-5)........not Joseph Smith, not Muhammad, not the Pope, nor any other supposed other medeator that denies the Gospel as presented to all men by the Apostles of Christ in the first century.....in fact there is a CURSE placed on anyone that attempts to teach any other gospel than that which was delivered by the Holy Ghost inspired Apostles of Christ..............

"As we (the Apostles of Christ such as Paul) said before, and I now say again; if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that Ye (Christians of the 1st century) have received, let him be accursed." -- Gal. 1:9

Then you have some attempting to declare that Paul was not actually an Apostle of Christ and His teachings through his epistles are not actually considered HOLY SCRIPTURE..........but the Apostle Peter (who was given the keys to the kingdom of Christ...Christ's church here on earth (Matthew 16) in having Peter's words be bound in heaven and on earth)....declares that Paul was an Apostle, lacking nothing and compared Paul's teachings as HOLY SCRIPTURE.....that some who are unlearned struggle with unto their own destruction.


"............and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him (Holy Ghost inspired), wrote to you; as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand; which the untaught and UNSTABLE distort..........AS THEY DO ALSO THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES (Peter compares Paul's teachings with other scripture.....meaning Peter consideres Paul's letters as Scripture......) TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION." -- 2 Peter 3:15-16

True, Jesus Christ did in fact reveal his gospel when he came upon the earth in the 1st century A.D. But what you fail to understand is that after Christ came all the Apostles except John were murdered and the Church gradually fell into a state of apostasy. For a long time there was not a true Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth. Paul surely was an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. Of this you speak truly and these were the words of Paul:

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Here we read that in the true church of Jesus Christ, there would be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, etc who hold the priesthood of God to administer the gospel and do the work of the ministry for edifying of the body of Christ (which is his church). How long would these offices of the priesthood be needed in his church? Until we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Let me ask you if we have come to that unity yet? If not, then wouldn't you expect there to be Apostles and Prophets in the true church of Jesus Christ? What church since the death of the Apostles has had 12 Apostles or prophets? Tell me which Catholic or Protestant church has had the true church with 12 Apostles and Prophets? They haven't and that is one big sign that the true church of Jesus Christ fell into a state of apostasy. The Great Apostasy that occurred gradually after the Apostles were murdered was prophesied by Amos the Prophet of the old testament:

Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

Amos lived approximately 811 B.C. This didn't occur before his days but was prophesied to come after. The Apostle Paul in his day warned of those who were to come and turn away the flock:

Acts 20:29-30
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Again Paul taught:

Ephesians 2:19–22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:1–3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul tells us here that there would come a falling away from the church. Here are other verses warning of the falling away: Acts 12:1–3; 2 Timothy 4:3–4; 2 Peter 2:1–2.

John himself in his Revelation tells of the Great Apostasy from the church:

Revelation 12:5-6
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here the woman represents the church of Jesus Christ and the man child who eventually was to rule all nations was Jesus himself. He was caught up unto God and to his throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared of God. This is the church going away because of apostasy. It was to eventually be restored after a great deal of time.

The Apostle Peter prophesied of the church being restored to the earth after the great apostasy:

Acts 3:19–21
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Here we learn that there will be a time when Jesus Christ will restore all things. If we have had the gospel and the church of Jesus Christ since the death of all the Apostles, why would there be a need for the restitution of all things. That time was to come before Christ was to come again on the earth. When the time of the restitution of all things has come then Christ will in that time come again. So a restoration of the His gospel would come again on the earth by establishing his church again on the earth. True, much of the gospel has made it through the ages in the bible but the priesthood of God and his church need to again be reestablished in these latter days before the coming of our Lord and Savior happens again on this earth. The restitution of all things means that all things that Jesus finds important to restore will be restored in these latter days. In the church this time is also known as the dispensation of the fullness of times. Through the prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord has again restored his true church upon the face of the earth and it is again a church with Apostles and Prophets, etc.

Joseph Smith did not preach another gospel but restored the same gospel of Jesus Christ and his church upon the earth with all the authority of the priesthood to minister unto the body of Christ and to officiate in the ordinances of the gospel such as baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost until we all come to the unity of the faith.

 

[onefour1]

You missed the point. Evil didn't always exist. It started with Lucifer and his followers rebelling against God using their free will. It was due to ego and pride. Then they were banished to a place created for them called hell.

Lucifer did not invent evil. The principle of evil has always existed. It is nothing more than the opposite of righteousness. Lucifer simply chose to do the opposite of what God would have wanted.

To say that evil had no existence before Lucifer rebelled in heaven is to say that God knew nothing of evil since it never existed before Satan invented it. But we know that the Gods did know about good and evil and likely were not taught it through the actions of Lucifer.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Upon Adam and Eve's fall, man became more like God by coming to know good and evil. Did God not know good and evil prior to the fall of Lucifer from heaven? Surely God knows all things and knew of evil long before Lucifer rebelled against him.

 

[onefour1]

No intelligent person can fail to see the ridiculousness of the Joseph Smith story. A prophecy only *he* could read? And when his “translation” was hidden, he couldn’t read the original anymore?

Best South Park moment ever was when they showed how Lucy Harris completely debunked Smith and no one listened to her.

View attachment 694672

I am guessing that you are referring to the golden plates? Have you ever considered that there could be a reason for God to take those plates other than your suspicions of fraud?

South Park? Is that where you get your knowledge of Joseph Smith? That should answer your question right there.

 

[onefour1]

So, nobody wants to address the problem of evil? All I asked to hear about was your take on the Problem of Evil. I shared my take and nobody addresses the purpose of the thread but everyone wants to bash my faith. I am beginning to believe that you have no answer for it in your own faith.

 

[SweetSue92]

You're emulating your god's "Love." I understand.

Jesus told people very difficult truths. That is love. In fact if you know something is a danger to someone, withholding that knowledge is a form of evil.

 

[james bond]

christianity claims they still exist so no their rebellion was not evil - just a little overbearing ... were it evil they would be dead - if not dead, as far from earth as heavenly possible.

It's incredulous that you do not get it.

 

[james bond]

Lucifer did not invent evil. The principle of evil has always existed. It is nothing more than the opposite of righteousness. Lucifer simply chose to do the opposite of what God would have wanted.

To say that evil had no existence before Lucifer rebelled in heaven is to say that God knew nothing of evil since it never existed before Satan invented it. But we know that the Gods did know about good and evil and likely were not taught it through the actions of Lucifer.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Upon Adam and Eve's fall, man became more like God by coming to know good and evil. Did God not know good and evil prior to the fall of Lucifer from heaven? Surely God knows all things and knew of evil long before Lucifer rebelled against him.

I didn't say he invented it, so stop with your wrong beliefs. It's part of free will. If he was the first to rebel against God, then he was the first to bring it into the world and others followed which is what happened. He's the one who tempted Eve and lo and behold, we have original sin.

God responded to Lucifer becoming Satan by creating hell and place where he and his followers were banished.

Now, the Problem of Evil, i.e. blaming God for it, doesn't seem natural to me. I don't think it will just arise here, but maybe I am wrong. If there is free will, then it is upon the one who chooses whether to accept God and His will or go against Him.

 

[Blues Man]

Good and evil are man made constructs.

The Tao states that when you name the good you create the bad.

The universe is neither good nor evil it simply is what it is.

When you realize the self does not exist you also see that good and evil do not exist

As Camus said the universe is utterly uncaring and the rational being must come to realize the absurdity of trying to find meaning in that uncaring universe

 

[Grumblenuts]

So, nobody wants to address the problem of evil? All I asked to hear about was your take on the Problem of Evil. I shared my take and nobody addresses the purpose of the thread but everyone wants to bash my faith. I am beginning to believe that you have no answer for it in your own faith.

No fan of the Tao nor Bluesman generally, but he just solidly addressed your question without attacking your beliefs. I don't recall attacking your beliefs either. You have created a somewhat popular topic and received many clearly sincere responses. Is whining not a "sin" in your "faith"? Celebrate and get on with it.

 

[james bond]

Good and evil are man made constructs.

No, it isn't. It is what comes with free will. You are in denial and are SAF and POS. Why do you think we have the Ten Commandments? Why do we need law and order?

 

[SweetSue92]

Good and evil are man made constructs.

The Tao states that when you name the good you create the bad.

The universe is neither good nor evil it simply is what it is.

When you realize the self does not exist you also see that good and evil do not exist

As Camus said the universe is utterly uncaring and the rational being must come to realize the absurdity of trying to find meaning in that uncaring universe

Your last sentence is contradictory.

If there is no meaning in the universe there can be no rationality. Rationality is meaning.

You couldn't even get this theory off the ground, to be honest.

 

[SweetSue92]

So, nobody wants to address the problem of evil? All I asked to hear about was your take on the Problem of Evil. I shared my take and nobody addresses the purpose of the thread but everyone wants to bash my faith. I am beginning to believe that you have no answer for it in your own faith.

I already did.

Good wins in the end.

But it's not the end yet.

 

[SweetSue92]

No fan of the Tao nor Bluesman generally, but he just solidly addressed your question without attacking your beliefs. I don't recall attacking your beliefs either. You have created a somewhat popular topic and received many clearly sincere responses. Is whining not a "sin" in your "faith"? Celebrate and get on with it.

Blues Man did no such thing. He invoked rationality in a universe without meaning. It's an inherent contradiction. A world without meaning would not "evolve" or even imagine anything close to rational beings.

Fail.