The Pain Keeps On Coming For Electric Car Owners

[Underhill]

Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.

Sure, but most of those things are a relatively low draw. The biggest draw is the headlights. And with LED headlights they aren't all that bad either.

With electrics the low draw adds up. This is why hybrids, and more specifically plug in hybrids are a much more viable technology than pure electrics.

Right now you are of course correct. But we are seeing technology in the works now that will probably mean batteries will cost 10% of what they do now and offer more range.

 

[Jarlaxle]

No, I just don't see where it's relevant.

Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.

Sure, but most of those things are a relatively low draw. The biggest draw is the headlights. And with LED headlights they aren't all that bad either.

No, that is wrong! The biggest draws on an electric is the HVAC. I would bet the power steering is a close second. Rear defroster can pull 20 amps by itself.

 

[Bill Angel]

There is also an all electric smartcar in the works:
Electric Smart ForTwo car might be the smartest one yet

She's a Real Cutie (the car that is...)

 

[Slapshot28]

It seems to me that there is some pretty bad information floating around on this thread. I've owned a Chevrolet Volt for over two years now, and I'm a chemical engineer by formal training. So, a few corrections:

1) Electric cars do not use heat pumps for heating. They use resistance heaters. Resistance heaters draw significant power, and reduce range in cold weather. My Volt gets 40 miles of range in the summer and 30 miles of range in the winter.

2) Lithium ion batteries are not a severe issue for either manufacture or waste disposal. Lithium is not terribly rare, or particularly toxic. Rare earth magnets used in large electric motors are another matter. But we've been using large electric motors for a long time now, so this is nothing new.

3) Obviously electric cars use electricity, and roughly half of US electricity is generated by burning coal. Here's the good news: because electric motors are so much more efficient than gasoline engines (about 90% conversion efficiency versus about 30% conversion efficiency), electric vehicles "burn" much less fuel to get from Point A to Point B. To go 40 miles, an EV or EREV burns about half the fuel of a conventional car. That's a good thing, no matter how you slice it.

Clearly an EREV like the Volt (which I own) or an EV like a Tesla Model S (which I crave) is not suited for everyone, or for every application. (For example, it sucks for towing boats even though most trains use EREV technology.) But EV's are great for me and they are great for many other folks like me.

Lastly, I know most of you genuinely despise government bail-outs and tax-incentives. I agree with you 100%. I did not even apply for the Fuel-Efficient-Vehicle tax credit, so I paid full price for my Volt. (I voted with my wallet on that one.) That said, government intervention and incentives do have a place. I try to keep an open mind in that regard.

 

[Underhill]

Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.

Sure, but most of those things are a relatively low draw. The biggest draw is the headlights. And with LED headlights they aren't all that bad either.

No, that is wrong! The biggest draws on an electric is the HVAC. I would bet the power steering is a close second. Rear defroster can pull 20 amps by itself.

If you have AC and a rear defroster. So far as I am concerned neither is necessary.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Air conditioning is LEGALLY REQUIRED in some vehicles...and in the real world, cars have A/C. It will be mandatory in a few years; defrosting is lousy without it.

Note that in a pure electric, heat is as big a draw as A/C.

 

[Underhill]

Air conditioning is LEGALLY REQUIRED in some vehicles...and in the real world, cars have A/C. It will be mandatory in a few years; defrosting is lousy without it.

Note that in a pure electric, heat is as big a draw as A/C.

Legally Required? Where?

My parents live in Jamaica. None of their vehicles have AC and they manage just fine. I drove through Florida with 3 kids in a non air conditioned Van 10 years ago.

Yes, AC is nice. But it is not necessary. Of course it isn't necessary. As for heat, it is a problem, but not insurmountable.

I suspect these things will be problematic in the near future but as engineering and battery technology becomes more advanced, it will become a non issue.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Legally required in class 7 & larger trucks in the US, as of (IIRC) 2011. (Older trucks do not have to be retrofitted...but if equipped with A/C--most are--it must work.) You may enjoy bathing it sweat and smelling like a goat after a 10-minute car ride...but in the real world, air conditioning is NOT optional.

I decided about 10 minutes after I got my first car with air conditioning that I would never be without it again!

 

[Underhill]

Legally required in class 7 & larger trucks in the US, as of (IIRC) 2011. (Older trucks do not have to be retrofitted...but if equipped with A/C--most are--it must work.) You may enjoy bathing it sweat and smelling like a goat after a 10-minute car ride...but in the real world, air conditioning is NOT optional.

I decided about 10 minutes after I got my first car with air conditioning that I would never be without it again!

Care to show me a link to that legal requirement? I searched the web and found nothing even hinting at it. I drove a truck for 6 years without air conditioning. Hauled mobile homes from Indiana all over the northeast. It certainly was not necessary. 90% of the time I wouldn't have used it if I had it.

It's actually kind of a pet peeve of mine that modern car manufacturers do not design cars with ventilation in mind. Good ventilation can make a huge difference. After all, air is flowing over the car at high speeds. Why not take advantage of that?

I can understand wanting it if you live in the southern states. But even then it isn't necessity.

And if the choice is between paying $25 a gallon for gasoline and doing without, necessity dictates most will go without.

It is not a necessity.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I think it's just a fiat passed by the DOT...I heard it from several different sources (one a DOT-enforcement cop).

Again: You may enjoy bathing in sweat and smelling like a goat after a 10-minute car ride...but in the real world, air conditioning is NOT optional.

 

[Underhill]

I think it's just a fiat passed by the DOT...I heard it from several different sources (one a DOT-enforcement cop).

Again: You may enjoy bathing in sweat and smelling like a goat after a 10-minute car ride...but in the real world, air conditioning is NOT optional.

So you heard it somewhere. Clearly a reliable source.

And I didn't smell like a goat or bath in sweat after 3 days in a truck with no AC. Sounds like a personal problem.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Yes, you did...you just got used to it and didn't realize it.

I heard it from someone who enforces the DOT regulations on trucks and drivers! So yes, he's a reliable source!

 

[Underhill]

Yes, you did...you just got used to it and didn't realize it.

I heard it from someone who enforces the DOT regulations on trucks and drivers! So yes, he's a reliable source!

I've researched the hell out of it and the only thing I've found is that a lot of new trucks have AC linked into their defrost so it has to work as part of a DOT inspection.

But it has nothing to do with AC for the driver. It has to do with the defrosters.

And no, I didn't.

The truck I drove had one of the old window vents. With that sucker open I was bathed in air from outside. The only time sweat was an issue was if the humidity and heat were both very high. Which amounted to about 2-3 weeks a year usually in the northeastern states. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

The guys who sweat like pigs tend to be the ones used to sitting in a/c and then are stuck without it. The human body can adjust to a great many things. I have parents who live in Jamaica. No AC, no hot water and they are happy as clams. They have big windows and an ocean breeze. No worries.

It's all in what you are used to. People are spoiled these days.

 

[Jarlaxle]

So...100 degree air blowing on your is a cooling effect? Yeah...no, actually, it doesn't. If anything, it makes it worse. I'm sure it works GREAT in 90-degree weather stuck in traffic! Wait, no...it doesn't. You DID smell like a goat...but you didn't notice, because you were used to it.

Jamaica isn't generally hot...average temperature is low 80's...and, of course, there is always a sea breeze. Not much sea breeze in, say, northern Alabama in July!

A/C has come on with the defroster since at least the early 70's, and probably before that

 

[Underhill]

So...100 degree air blowing on your is a cooling effect? Yeah...no, actually, it doesn't. If anything, it makes it worse. I'm sure it works GREAT in 90-degree weather stuck in traffic! Wait, no...it doesn't. You DID smell like a goat...but you didn't notice, because you were used to it.

Jamaica isn't generally hot...average temperature is low 80's...and, of course, there is always a sea breeze. Not much sea breeze in, say, northern Alabama in July!

A/C has come on with the defroster since at least the early 70's, and probably before that

As I have pointed out, it may be nice to have. It's certainly important if you live in the south. But it is not necessary.

Even if I did stink, that does not make it necessary.

And yes, 100 degree air flowing over you does help. As long as you hydrate and are in decent health it shouldn't hurt you.

As for defrosters, yes it can be integrated. But you can still walk into a Nissan/Porsche/Hyundai Dealer and buy a car without AC, so it is certainly not legally required.

Last but not least, Jamaica may average in the 80's but they sure as hell have a lot of days way over that. At least as many as anywhere in Georgia. Go a few miles inland and there is no sea breeze and virtually nobody has AC. Do they sweat? Sure. But sweat isn't life threatening.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Porsche?!?! Other than dedicated track cars, have they built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years?! I defy you to find any new car without A/C. Again: in the real world, new cars have A/C.

 

[longknife]

Why has this thread slid downhill into another insignificant peeing contest?

 

[Slapshot28]

For those of you who despise subsidies so much, I do hope that you will join this "party": DailyTech - Ethanol Industry Pokes Fun at Big Oil in 100th Birthday Celebration for Subsidies

Big Oil, which is already the most profitable industry in the world, still receives subsidies. The oldest, continuous subsidy was enacted in 1913, which is the topic of the birthday party.

From a member at GM-Volt.com (Happy 100th Birthday Oil Subsidies):

Currently, there are more than 250 different kinds of subsidy and tax break programs for the fossil fuel industry, totalling more than $50B per year, not including the military deployments and wars we don't need to fight to serve the oil industry. After 100 years, $5 Trillion total. I couldn't imagine the humungous financial debt we have incurred if we include the actual financial costs and lives lost by protecting the oil industry using our military might.

And how much has the Volt tax credit cost us? Oh, about $300M (= 40,000 vehicles x $7,500), or 0.6% of the annual oil subsidies.

Hold on. I almost forgot the GM bail-out. But wait (Government sells big hunk of GM stock):

The government now has recovered about $29.8 billion of its $49.5 billion GM bailout, which helped the company navigate Chapter 11 bankruptcy and chart a path toward survival.

Maybe it wasn't such a bad idea to keep America in the car business.

And maybe it's not such a bad idea to spend a liitle money to encourage development of alternative and/or green fuels.

 

[Underhill]

Why has this thread slid downhill into another insignificant peeing contest?

Reasonable question. I don't know. It seems some people do not understand the difference between needs and wants.

 

[Underhill]

Porsche?!?! Other than dedicated track cars, have they built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years?! I defy you to find any new car without A/C. Again: in the real world, new cars have A/C.

The Porsche GT2, the GT3, the Nissan Versa, the Chevy Aveo, the Toyota Yaris...