The Pain Keeps On Coming For Electric Car Owners

[Underhill]

The electric vehicles of today are not much better than the electric cars from 30-50 years ago.

The bottom line is that the biggest problem with electric cars has NEVER been resolved.......the BATTERIES.

Battery evolution has been slow, and until somebody devises a legitimate way to store "energy in a box" that is more efficient and has much better longevity, ALL electric vehicles will remain nothing more than GLORIFIED GOLF CARTS.

That is an extreme exaggeration. The electrics of 30-50 years ago were half the size and had half the range of the best electrics today.

Batteries are a limiting factor, but as I pointed out, it isn't something we can't overcome. It would just require an infrastructure shift.

Not likely at the moment, but it could happen very quickly if we really needed it to.

 

[Jarlaxle]

wait , what? You contend that electric vehicles have neither a/c nor heaters?

Running A/C or heat in a pure EV puts a major dent in its range. Also, the heat (a heat pump) in an electric tends to be pretty weak.

Hybrids work well as taxis (and are already common enough, usually Escapes, Camrys, and Fusions), but true EV taxis are impractical.

Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.

You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?

Of course: a normal car (hybrid or not) uses engine heat for comfort. A pure EV has no engine heat, therefore must create it. Most (all I have seen, in fact) use heat pumps. Heat pumps perform poorly in very cold conditions...and, of course, they use power, reducing range. Directly from the driver of an EV: the heat is awful. In 15-degree weather, the interior barely gets above freezing!

 

[Underhill]

Running A/C or heat in a pure EV puts a major dent in its range. Also, the heat (a heat pump) in an electric tends to be pretty weak.

Hybrids work well as taxis (and are already common enough, usually Escapes, Camrys, and Fusions), but true EV taxis are impractical.

Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.

You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?

Of course: a normal car (hybrid or not) uses engine heat for comfort. A pure EV has no engine heat, therefore must create it. Most (all I have seen, in fact) use heat pumps. Heat pumps perform poorly in very cold conditions...and, of course, they use power, reducing range. Directly from the driver of an EV: the heat is awful. In 15-degree weather, the interior barely gets above freezing!

Yep, this is an advantage of the poor efficiency of combustion engines. Lots of waste heat.

 

[martybegan]

wait , what? You contend that electric vehicles have neither a/c nor heaters?

Running A/C or heat in a pure EV puts a major dent in its range. Also, the heat (a heat pump) in an electric tends to be pretty weak.

Hybrids work well as taxis (and are already common enough, usually Escapes, Camrys, and Fusions), but true EV taxis are impractical.

Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.

You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?

Its not range, its duration. Taxis cannot afford downtime greater than it takes to fill up the gas tank. If the full charge time is more than 15 minutes, the vehicle is useless.

 

[martybegan]

There are solutions to all the hurtles of electric cars. They simply require investment.

Two such solutions are in the works

One of those are quick change batteries. You stop by a station and swap your battery pack. Not a much bigger headache than pumping gas.

Another, and even better for those used to a fill up station, is the development of liquid metal batteries where the liquid in batteries would hold a charge (I haven't read details but this is my understanding) and could be swapped out at a filling station.

Either of these solutions could work so long as there was the infrastructure in place.

How do you quick change a 500lb battery?

 

[martybegan]

Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.

You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?

Of course: a normal car (hybrid or not) uses engine heat for comfort. A pure EV has no engine heat, therefore must create it. Most (all I have seen, in fact) use heat pumps. Heat pumps perform poorly in very cold conditions...and, of course, they use power, reducing range. Directly from the driver of an EV: the heat is awful. In 15-degree weather, the interior barely gets above freezing!

Yep, this is an advantage of the poor efficiency of combustion engines. Lots of waste heat.

You also forge the integral electrical generation via the alternator.

 

[Underhill]

There are solutions to all the hurtles of electric cars. They simply require investment.

Two such solutions are in the works

One of those are quick change batteries. You stop by a station and swap your battery pack. Not a much bigger headache than pumping gas.

Another, and even better for those used to a fill up station, is the development of liquid metal batteries where the liquid in batteries would hold a charge (I haven't read details but this is my understanding) and could be swapped out at a filling station.

Either of these solutions could work so long as there was the infrastructure in place.

How do you quick change a 500lb battery?

It's manageable. It just requires a bit of design work.

 

[Underhill]

Of course: a normal car (hybrid or not) uses engine heat for comfort. A pure EV has no engine heat, therefore must create it. Most (all I have seen, in fact) use heat pumps. Heat pumps perform poorly in very cold conditions...and, of course, they use power, reducing range. Directly from the driver of an EV: the heat is awful. In 15-degree weather, the interior barely gets above freezing!

Yep, this is an advantage of the poor efficiency of combustion engines. Lots of waste heat.

You also forge the integral electrical generation via the alternator.

No, I just don't see where it's relevant.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Heres an article from a driver who took a trip from hell in an electric auto. Tesla denies it.

The New York Times’s John M. Broder reported Friday that the Tesla Model S electric car he was test-driving repeatedly ran out of juice, partly because cold weather reduces the battery’s range by about 10 percent.
Broder’s trip turned into a nightmare, including a stretch with the conked-out car riding the back of a flatbed truck.


Charles Lane: Obama?s electric car mistake - The Washington Post

I've been following that story......


"CNN journalists prove John Broder wrong by driving Tesla Model S over same route (Photos)
Two CNN Reporters, Abigail Bassett and Peter Valdes-Dapena set out to prove who was right in the battle over the mileage claims on the Model Tesla S by driving the same route that John Broder drove earlier today on Valentines day (February 14,2013) . Basically John Broder set out on a 200 mile trip and ran out of power, claiming the Tesla Model S ran out of battery long before Tesla promised it would. But Abigal Bassett and Peter Valdes Dapena drove the exact same route earlier today in similar conditions and the results were surprisingly different then what John Broder reported on. Long story short, they actually made the entire trip with range to spare (38 miles to be exact)."
CNN journalists prove John Broder wrong by driving Tesla Model S over same route - Fresno Car Buying | Examiner.com



Broder may have some 'splainin' to do.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.

You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?

Of course: a normal car (hybrid or not) uses engine heat for comfort. A pure EV has no engine heat, therefore must create it. Most (all I have seen, in fact) use heat pumps. Heat pumps perform poorly in very cold conditions...and, of course, they use power, reducing range. Directly from the driver of an EV: the heat is awful. In 15-degree weather, the interior barely gets above freezing!

Yep, this is an advantage of the poor efficiency of combustion engines. Lots of waste heat.

1. An electric car requires an array of battery cells, almost 500 pounds worth. http://www.whitehouse.gov/files/documents/Battery-and-Electric-Vehicle-Report-FINAL.pdf

a. GM’s EV1 NiMH (nickel metal hydride) weighed in at 1,150-1,400 pounds. Nickel Metal Hydride | GREENDUMP and Berezow, Op.Cit., p. 99.

b. The Chevy Volt has a lithium-ion battery that weights in at 435 pounds. GM press release: CHEVROLET VOLT’S REVOLUTIONARY VOLTEC ELECTRIC DRIVE SYSTEM DELIVERS EFFICIENCY WITH PERFORMANCE




2.. The batteries are expensive, listed at $3,000-$4,000. Prius hybrid owners have been quoted at $7,000 and up. Behind the Hidden Costs of Hybrids - HybridCars.com

a. It is unclear what replacement cost will be when labor is included.

3. Since the battery’s ability to recharge declines with use, it must be replaced at about 100,000 miles. And the nickel metal hydride leaks energy- about 20 percent of capacity within the first 24 hours. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/Nickel_based_batteriesbnn




4. The batteries pose a dramatic detrimental effect on the environment due to polytetrafluoroethylene binder and nickel foam materials. Life cycle environmental assessme... preview & related info | Mendeley

5. Basically, electric vehicles are dragging a lot of extra weight made of toxic materials in order to use stored energy that combustion vehicles can simply generate on the go. Berezow, Op. Cit., p.66.





6. And, of course, the elephant in the room is highlighted by this question: when you charge your electric car at night, where is the electricity coming from? No, the wall is not the correct answer. Probably, a coal-fired power plant….back to square one.

7. “When the cost of replacing the batteries and the cost to recharge the batteries are considered, the cost to run a small electric car (non-hybrid) is about three times more than a conventional economy gasoline car. Since the cost of electricity tends to more or less follow the cost of fuel, it is unlikely that this ratio will change in the future. Electric cars are fun to have and drive, but you will not save money, nor will you really help the environment.” Electric Cars. Critical Questions and Ansswers regarding Electric Cars including how to build an electric car, safety, and are they in fact cheaper to run than conventional electric vehicles.

 

[PoliticalChic]

wait , what? You contend that electric vehicles have neither a/c nor heaters?

Running A/C or heat in a pure EV puts a major dent in its range. Also, the heat (a heat pump) in an electric tends to be pretty weak.

Hybrids work well as taxis (and are already common enough, usually Escapes, Camrys, and Fusions), but true EV taxis are impractical.

Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.

You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?

The April 2011 edition of Consumer Reports has some interesting comments about the Chevrolet Volt. The following is from the article.
“GM’s plug-in hybrid goes gas-free for short trips, but is pricey.”

1. A weak electric heater is problematic. It is quiet, has brisk acceleration, with a taut, supple ride. Due to the tepid warm air, the passengers were uncomfortable. When the temperature dips below 26, the engine will turn on even during the electric portion of the trip.

2. The mph is not meaningful without knowing a trip’s length, because calculating fuel economy depends on the ratio of electric to gasoline use.

a. We’ve been getting between 23 and 28 mpg, due to the winter’s freeze. The car’s electric range is very susceptible to cold weather since the heater runs on electricity.

b. We’ve also found that an extended highway cruise shortens the electric range.

 

[martybegan]

Yep, this is an advantage of the poor efficiency of combustion engines. Lots of waste heat.

You also forge the integral electrical generation via the alternator.

No, I just don't see where it's relevant.

Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.

 

[martybegan]

There are solutions to all the hurtles of electric cars. They simply require investment.

Two such solutions are in the works

One of those are quick change batteries. You stop by a station and swap your battery pack. Not a much bigger headache than pumping gas.

Another, and even better for those used to a fill up station, is the development of liquid metal batteries where the liquid in batteries would hold a charge (I haven't read details but this is my understanding) and could be swapped out at a filling station.

Either of these solutions could work so long as there was the infrastructure in place.

How do you quick change a 500lb battery?

It's manageable. It just requires a bit of design work.

Again, you have to be able to do it in under 10 minutes, similar to filling up a gas tank, or for a taxi its a worthless operation. It also has to be availible in multiple locations, like gas stations, or then the taxi has a raduis range from its home base.

Also on further review, some batteries can be up to 1000 lbs.

 

[Underhill]

How do you quick change a 500lb battery?

It's manageable. It just requires a bit of design work.

Again, you have to be able to do it in under 10 minutes, similar to filling up a gas tank, or for a taxi its a worthless operation. It also has to be availible in multiple locations, like gas stations, or then the taxi has a raduis range from its home base.

Also on further review, some batteries can be up to 1000 lbs.

It could be done. Simply design them as a drawer design so you pull up, the drawer slides out and into a tray and the new battery slides in place.

You pull up, your battery is checked (to make sure it is good) pulled out, drop the new one in and off you go. Could be quicker than fueling up.

 

[Underhill]

You also forge the integral electrical generation via the alternator.

No, I just don't see where it's relevant.

Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.

Sure, but most of those things are a relatively low draw. The biggest draw is the headlights. And with LED headlights they aren't all that bad either.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

They are not eco friendly either. The batteries are highly toxic for the earth and have to be dumped somewhere when they wear out. Electric cars are actually very anti - green. The irony of it all.

 

[Underhill]

They are not eco friendly either. The batteries are highly toxic for the earth and have to be dumped somewhere when they wear out. Electric cars are actually very anti - green. The irony of it all.

That is true of the current crop of batteries (to some extent, although it is exaggerated).

But I am confident, looking at new technologies on the horizon, that this too can be overcome.

I'm not claiming electric cars are the answer right now. But most of the problems talked about in this thread can be managed.

Sooner or later, if we don't manage to wipe ourselves out, we will have to make the transition. Cars as they are today are not sustainable. Even renewables like ethanol, while they might work in the short term, have their limitations.

There is really only one long term alternative to electrics. And it is being used now in one country.

Hydrogen. Drop a few large power plants in Yellowstone using geothermal power to extract hydrogen. Zero emissions and a technology we could easily mainstream within 30 years if we put our minds to it.

There is another upside to this type of plan as well. It gives us new opportunities to study the Yellowstone Caldera.

Iceland tried this approach but running solo it has proved almost impossible. Car manufacturers aren't likely to produce hydrogen cars specifically for a country with a third the population of New Hampshire.

What they have managed to do is show us what is possible.

 

[martybegan]

It's manageable. It just requires a bit of design work.

Again, you have to be able to do it in under 10 minutes, similar to filling up a gas tank, or for a taxi its a worthless operation. It also has to be availible in multiple locations, like gas stations, or then the taxi has a raduis range from its home base.

Also on further review, some batteries can be up to 1000 lbs.

It could be done. Simply design them as a drawer design so you pull up, the drawer slides out and into a tray and the new battery slides in place.

You pull up, your battery is checked (to make sure it is good) pulled out, drop the new one in and off you go. Could be quicker than fueling up.

An interesting concept, but the primary issue is if someone just spent $60k on a car (of which $10k is the battery) do you really think they want some replacement of unknown quality?

 

[martybegan]

No, I just don't see where it's relevant.

Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.

Sure, but most of those things are a relatively low draw. The biggest draw is the headlights. And with LED headlights they aren't all that bad either.

With electrics the low draw adds up. This is why hybrids, and more specifically plug in hybrids are a much more viable technology than pure electrics.

 

[Underhill]

Again, you have to be able to do it in under 10 minutes, similar to filling up a gas tank, or for a taxi its a worthless operation. It also has to be availible in multiple locations, like gas stations, or then the taxi has a raduis range from its home base.

Also on further review, some batteries can be up to 1000 lbs.

It could be done. Simply design them as a drawer design so you pull up, the drawer slides out and into a tray and the new battery slides in place.

You pull up, your battery is checked (to make sure it is good) pulled out, drop the new one in and off you go. Could be quicker than fueling up.

An interesting concept, but the primary issue is if someone just spent $60k on a car (of which $10k is the battery) do you really think they want some replacement of unknown quality?

No, but this is why I would design the system to check any battery before pulling it out of the car. Easy enough to do.