The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[montelatici]

Do I have this right that monte is arguing FOR the Ottoman's insistence on apartheid policy in preventing the Jewish people from living in certain territory?

The Ottomans feared that Europeans would create problems in Palestine. They were right as we see today.

"The real reasons lay elsewhere. They were principally two. First, the Sublime Porte feared the possibility of nurturing another national problem in the Empire. Secondly, it did not want to increase the number of foreign subjects, particularly Europeans, in its domains"

http://ismi.emory.edu/home/documents/Readings/Mandel, Neville J. Ottoman Policy.pdf

OK so if one "fears" that a group would "cause problems", its legit not to "invite them" to one's domain. I'm wondering why he's tooting the apartheid horn then now in relation to Israel.

What do you call separating people under the rule of those of the favored religion because of their religions from those of the Government favored religion?

 

[Hollie]

Do I have this right that monte is arguing FOR the Ottoman's insistence on apartheid policy in preventing the Jewish people from living in certain territory?

The Ottomans feared that Europeans would create problems in Palestine. They were right as we see today.

"The real reasons lay elsewhere. They were principally two. First, the Sublime Porte feared the possibility of nurturing another national problem in the Empire. Secondly, it did not want to increase the number of foreign subjects, particularly Europeans, in its domains"

http://ismi.emory.edu/home/documents/Readings/Mandel, Neville J. Ottoman Policy.pdf

OK so if one "fears" that a group would "cause problems", its legit not to "invite them" to one's domain. I'm wondering why he's tooting the apartheid horn then now in relation to Israel.

What do you call separating people under the rule of those of the favored religion because of their religions from those of the Government favored religion?

We would call that "virtually all Islamic Middle Eastern backwaters'"

 

[P F Tinmore]

Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary

 

[Sixties Fan]

Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary

It says it all:

"Tariq Ali talks to Bernard Regan, author of The Balfour Declaration, as we approach the centenary of the Imperial British Government’s creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine."

Creation of A Jewish homeland in Palestine......not recreation of the Jewish Homeland on their ancient homeland in Palestine (Land of Israel)

No.....they could not say that

Some anti Semites sit together and discuss how the Jews would not have (re)created in their ancient homeland (never mentioning it) if the Allies had not won WWI.

"Just go and live there with the "Palestinians"

"Arab Jews" wow, what a misnomer.

"Palestinian Congress" ???? (Do they mean the Arab League? )

Uhmmmmm.

Anyone else listened to this more than enlightening conversation?

----------
Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary
--------------

(All of which would have been avoided if the Arabs/Muslims extremists had not started a war against the Jews against Jewish sovereignty over their own Jewish homeland. Pity that other clans but the Husseini did not became the most powerful ones in the area. They would have brought the peace with the Jews necessary, and no war against them. But does the author and interviewer understand that?)

Both author and interviewer call the Arabs "Palestinians", but not the Jews, when it was the Jews who were using the term Palestinian (Philarmonic, Palestinian Post, etc )during the Mandate, and not the Arabs.

The Palestinians were disarmed. Seriously?

Again, quite telling.

Who are Tarik Ali and Bernard Regan, really?

(Give us another Masterpiece Theatre video, tin man )

 

[P F Tinmore]

Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary

It says it all:

"Tariq Ali talks to Bernard Regan, author of The Balfour Declaration, as we approach the centenary of the Imperial British Government’s creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine."

Creation of A Jewish homeland in Palestine......not recreation of the Jewish Homeland on their ancient homeland in Palestine (Land of Israel)

No.....they could not say that

Some anti Semites sit together and discuss how the Jews would not have (re)created in their ancient homeland (never mentioning it) if the Allies had not won WWI.

"Just go and live there with the "Palestinians"

"Arab Jews" wow, what a misnomer.

"Palestinian Congress" ???? (Do they mean the Arab League? )

Uhmmmmm.

Anyone else listened to this more than enlightening conversation?

----------
Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary
--------------

(All of which would have been avoided if the Arabs/Muslims extremists had not started a war against the Jews against Jewish sovereignty over their own Jewish homeland. Pity that other clans but the Husseini did not became the most powerful ones in the area. They would have brought the peace with the Jews necessary, and no war against them. But does the author and interviewer understand that?)

Both author and interviewer call the Arabs "Palestinians", but not the Jews, when it was the Jews who were using the term Palestinian (Philarmonic, Palestinian Post, etc )during the Mandate, and not the Arabs.

The Palestinians were disarmed. Seriously?

Again, quite telling.

Who are Tarik Ali and Bernard Regan, really?

(Give us another Masterpiece Theatre video, tin man )

Oh jeese, more Israeli talking points.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary

It says it all:

"Tariq Ali talks to Bernard Regan, author of The Balfour Declaration, as we approach the centenary of the Imperial British Government’s creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine."

Creation of A Jewish homeland in Palestine......not recreation of the Jewish Homeland on their ancient homeland in Palestine (Land of Israel)

No.....they could not say that

Some anti Semites sit together and discuss how the Jews would not have (re)created in their ancient homeland (never mentioning it) if the Allies had not won WWI.

"Just go and live there with the "Palestinians"

"Arab Jews" wow, what a misnomer.

"Palestinian Congress" ???? (Do they mean the Arab League? )

Uhmmmmm.

Anyone else listened to this more than enlightening conversation?

----------
Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary
--------------

(All of which would have been avoided if the Arabs/Muslims extremists had not started a war against the Jews against Jewish sovereignty over their own Jewish homeland. Pity that other clans but the Husseini did not became the most powerful ones in the area. They would have brought the peace with the Jews necessary, and no war against them. But does the author and interviewer understand that?)

Both author and interviewer call the Arabs "Palestinians", but not the Jews, when it was the Jews who were using the term Palestinian (Philarmonic, Palestinian Post, etc )during the Mandate, and not the Arabs.

The Palestinians were disarmed. Seriously?

Again, quite telling.

Who are Tarik Ali and Bernard Regan, really?

(Give us another Masterpiece Theatre video, tin man )

Oh jeese, more Israeli talking points.

Oh, gee, more Christian ignorance and hatred of Jews.

Keep it up tin man

 

[Sixties Fan]

Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary

I sent this video to a friend of mine. A History Professor. I found the comments about it very interesting and wanted to share them here:

Part 1

Thanks for this video. I sat down mesmerized to see what they would be discussing. You are already forewarned that the historian is part of a Pro-Palestine solidarity group and so it is going to be slanted since the time he opens his mouth-even when some of the facts are correct.
The interviewer is obviously leading with the questions, and I was quite annoyed with the different alternatives to the real facts.
That is not how history is analyzed.Some of his alternative scenarios were indeed slanted. Stupid what ifs !

If Tariq Ali is doing this interview it is because he not only sided with the Palestinians, he IS actively involved in supporting terrorism. He lives in Switzerland , and the US knows his background, and has not been allowed in the US.
Once we dismiss these leading questions we do have the facts but also slanted to make sure that at the end we say poor dispossessed " Palestinians."
First of all he should mention that the Arabs came from the Hejaz as invaders and they stayed for the duration. Just discussing Balfour out of the blue is then easier to trounce the truth.

Issues that bothered me were:

a) prior to Balfour -which was nice to have but not totally necessary- we have already Jews there since the foundation of Tel Aviv was in 1909. Surely,way before Balfour we have Hovevei Zion and the Biluim. Balfour is one small key in the whole process.

b) Ahem! "Herzl was cynical when he approached the Czar,"when the czar was one of the most antisemitic individuals. " Cynical? Absolutely not. Herzl, as far as I know was willing to meet with anybody who would help the Zionist movement go forward. Given the Ottoman capitulations stipulations he knew that he needed a sponsor, be the Kaiser, the Sultan himself, or even the Czar.
His prior tries to meet the Czar were unsuccessful, So he approached a friend, Baroness Bettina von Suttner. She was an Austrian pacifist who wrote a book called "Put Down the Arms" for which she won a Nobel Prize. Perhaps through her there would be a meeting with the Czar. Suttner knew that there would be a disarmament conference in The Hague, so through her friends she tired to accomplish Herzl's meeting with the Czar. This didn't happen because the Herzl movement was considered " socialist agitation." Later on he made further attempts to meet the Czar. The latter failed for the same reason::distrust of Herzl's movement and what impact will have on the Jews of Russia. He met with Plevhe after the Kishniev pogrom- but never the Czar- In that meeting he asked help to pressure the Turkish Sultan, help Jewish immigration via taxation, and allow Zionists organizations to function in Russia. While Plevhe immediately agreed- since he didn't want the Kishniev pogrom discussed- you know that this was not an agreement he was just using Herzl.

b) Chutzpah,absolute chutzpah comparing Spanish Guernica to the response of the British in the Revolt of 1936-39. That is an exaggerated comparison to present the Arab as just victim again.. Surely, we know that the Arabs, as is their usual custom, never opened anything for discussion and rioted since the 1920, but in the 1936-39 revolt in Mandate Palestine, the Arabs went also directly against the British; so, yes , the British responded. NO, it is not Guernica. Furthermore,. the Mufti was directing all issues from his compound in Berlin. He chose the wrong side and Germany didn't win, so he didn't win either. How can one twist the facts and not mention the Mufti at all?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Part 2

c) Haganah: The historian said that The Haganah forces were trained by the British. No! It was Jabotinsky who decided to form independent units of self-defense to defend the Yishuv from Arab assaults. Neither the British nor the Zionist Commission authorized these self defense units. So, no, not British trained. His first test was with the Nebi Musa festival in the 1920 that we know culminated in a riot. The British responded by jailing Jabotinski. Then Herbert Samuel, the Jewish Commissioner offered an amnesty for the Nebi Musa riots, and freed not only Jabotinsky, but two Arab who were found raping Jewish women then. Again, they claiming victimization in a one sided way. British cooperation with Jews in the Mandate was before the Haganah with the Zion Mule Corps, and it was short lived after the British losses in Gallipoli.

d) British Jews and others being against Zionism. Surely, they were because of the accusation of "double loyalty" that exists up to today whether Israel existed or not.
Actually, even when some Jews were mobilizing to protect the Russian and Polish Jews after the First World War, Most British Jews were not so eager to be involved either in what became known as Minorities Treaties.

e) What is the relevance of mentioning that Mizrachi Jews didn't like the Ashkenazim? It goes both ways since the customs and practices of Judaism were not the same and surely for one the Mizrachi did not like that the Ashkenazim were condescending. The reason they did that was to say how nice the relationship between Mizarachi Jews and the Arabs. However, it is not true that Mizrachi Jews- apart from speaking Arabic - were integrated in those Arab communities in Mandate Palestine. The Turkish pasha in charge of the Paletine area during the Ottomans made sure that there would be animosity between Arabs and Jews. This integration of Mizrachi Jews in the Arab communities in Mandate Palestine or before is fiction!

f) Mentioning Deir Yassin is an obligation for them but no way they mention all the rioting that they did since the 1920s to 1939 attacking Jews. And they don't mention either that there were many Arabs that came to Mandate Palestine because there were better conditions of work.

 

[montelatici]

Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary

It says it all:

"Tariq Ali talks to Bernard Regan, author of The Balfour Declaration, as we approach the centenary of the Imperial British Government’s creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine."

Creation of A Jewish homeland in Palestine......not recreation of the Jewish Homeland on their ancient homeland in Palestine (Land of Israel)

No.....they could not say that

Some anti Semites sit together and discuss how the Jews would not have (re)created in their ancient homeland (never mentioning it) if the Allies had not won WWI.

"Just go and live there with the "Palestinians"

"Arab Jews" wow, what a misnomer.

"Palestinian Congress" ???? (Do they mean the Arab League? )

Uhmmmmm.

Anyone else listened to this more than enlightening conversation?

----------
Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary
--------------

(All of which would have been avoided if the Arabs/Muslims extremists had not started a war against the Jews against Jewish sovereignty over their own Jewish homeland. Pity that other clans but the Husseini did not became the most powerful ones in the area. They would have brought the peace with the Jews necessary, and no war against them. But does the author and interviewer understand that?)

Both author and interviewer call the Arabs "Palestinians", but not the Jews, when it was the Jews who were using the term Palestinian (Philarmonic, Palestinian Post, etc )during the Mandate, and not the Arabs.

The Palestinians were disarmed. Seriously?

Again, quite telling.

Who are Tarik Ali and Bernard Regan, really?

(Give us another Masterpiece Theatre video, tin man )

So if the people of Palestine, the 99% Muslims and Christians in 1850, had just accepted the European Jews as their rulers everything would have been fine. You are one sick puppy.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary

It says it all:

"Tariq Ali talks to Bernard Regan, author of The Balfour Declaration, as we approach the centenary of the Imperial British Government’s creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine."

Creation of A Jewish homeland in Palestine......not recreation of the Jewish Homeland on their ancient homeland in Palestine (Land of Israel)

No.....they could not say that

Some anti Semites sit together and discuss how the Jews would not have (re)created in their ancient homeland (never mentioning it) if the Allies had not won WWI.

"Just go and live there with the "Palestinians"

"Arab Jews" wow, what a misnomer.

"Palestinian Congress" ???? (Do they mean the Arab League? )

Uhmmmmm.

Anyone else listened to this more than enlightening conversation?

----------
Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary
--------------

(All of which would have been avoided if the Arabs/Muslims extremists had not started a war against the Jews against Jewish sovereignty over their own Jewish homeland. Pity that other clans but the Husseini did not became the most powerful ones in the area. They would have brought the peace with the Jews necessary, and no war against them. But does the author and interviewer understand that?)

Both author and interviewer call the Arabs "Palestinians", but not the Jews, when it was the Jews who were using the term Palestinian (Philarmonic, Palestinian Post, etc )during the Mandate, and not the Arabs.

The Palestinians were disarmed. Seriously?

Again, quite telling.

Who are Tarik Ali and Bernard Regan, really?

(Give us another Masterpiece Theatre video, tin man )

So if the people of Palestine, the 99% Muslims and Christians in 1850, had just accepted the European Jews as their rulers everything would have been fine. You are one sick puppy.

1850? Under Ottoman Rule?

Your one trick as a pony does not work on any thread, now - does it?

So, lets see, you accept the 500 years of Ottoman European rule, but would not accept any Indigenous Jewish rule on their own ancient land AFTER the Ottoman rule was over, IF those Jews had lived in Europe?

Say it isn't so

 

[montelatici]

Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary

It says it all:

"Tariq Ali talks to Bernard Regan, author of The Balfour Declaration, as we approach the centenary of the Imperial British Government’s creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine."

Creation of A Jewish homeland in Palestine......not recreation of the Jewish Homeland on their ancient homeland in Palestine (Land of Israel)

No.....they could not say that

Some anti Semites sit together and discuss how the Jews would not have (re)created in their ancient homeland (never mentioning it) if the Allies had not won WWI.

"Just go and live there with the "Palestinians"

"Arab Jews" wow, what a misnomer.

"Palestinian Congress" ???? (Do they mean the Arab League? )

Uhmmmmm.

Anyone else listened to this more than enlightening conversation?

----------
Global Empire - The Balfour Declaration: A Blood-Drenched Centenary
--------------

(All of which would have been avoided if the Arabs/Muslims extremists had not started a war against the Jews against Jewish sovereignty over their own Jewish homeland. Pity that other clans but the Husseini did not became the most powerful ones in the area. They would have brought the peace with the Jews necessary, and no war against them. But does the author and interviewer understand that?)

Both author and interviewer call the Arabs "Palestinians", but not the Jews, when it was the Jews who were using the term Palestinian (Philarmonic, Palestinian Post, etc )during the Mandate, and not the Arabs.

The Palestinians were disarmed. Seriously?

Again, quite telling.

Who are Tarik Ali and Bernard Regan, really?

(Give us another Masterpiece Theatre video, tin man )

So if the people of Palestine, the 99% Muslims and Christians in 1850, had just accepted the European Jews as their rulers everything would have been fine. You are one sick puppy.

1850? Under Ottoman Rule?

Your one trick as a pony does not work on any thread, now - does it?

So, lets see, you accept the 500 years of Ottoman European rule, but would not accept any Indigenous Jewish rule on their own ancient land AFTER the Ottoman rule was over, IF those Jews had lived in Europe?

Say it isn't so

European Jews are not indigenous to Palestine, or the Middle East. They are indigenous to Europe. Why would native people that made up 95% of the population of Palestine in 1920 agree to allow Europeans to rule them after the Ottomans were thrown out. Like other native people within the former Ottoman possessions, they believed the Covenant of the League of Nations which stated that the inhabitants of those territories would gain independence and sovreignty.

 

[Shusha]

So if the people of Palestine, the 99% Muslims and Christians in 1850, had just accepted the European Jews as their rulers everything would have been fine.

What they SHOULD have done follow the sentiments of Faisal I:

"We Arabs... look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organisation to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper. We will do our best, insofar as we are concerned, to help them through; we will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home... I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us, so that the countries in which we are mutually interested may once again take their places in the community of the civilised peoples of the world."

 

[P F Tinmore]

I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us,

Indeed, the Palestinians were helped out of their homes and off their land.

 

[Shusha]

I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us,

Indeed, the Palestinians were helped out of their homes and off their land.

Only because they violently rejected the idea of welcoming the Jewish people home.

 

[Sixties Fan]

I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us,

Indeed, the Palestinians were helped out of their homes and off their land.

Only because they chose to declare war on the indigenous Jews, rather than live peacefully as Faisal suggested.

Some people never learn.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us,

Indeed, the Palestinians were helped out of their homes and off their land.

Only because they chose to declare war on the indigenous Jews, rather than live peacefully as Faisal suggested.

Some people never learn.

Well, the Palestinians always did reject the Zionist settler colonial project.

 

[Shusha]

Well, the Palestinians always did reject the Zionist settler colonial project.

But only because they framed it that way. Instead of framing it the way Faisal did -- as the Jews returning home. And welcome to.

 

[Sixties Fan]

I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us,

Indeed, the Palestinians were helped out of their homes and off their land.

Only because they chose to declare war on the indigenous Jews, rather than live peacefully as Faisal suggested.

Some people never learn.

Well, the Palestinians always did reject the Zionist settler colonial project.

I see, the Arab colonialists rejected the Jewish indigenous people of the land and granted them the same title they had , "Colonialists".

"The Arab Settler Colonialist Project, settling the world since the 7th Century CE"

 

[montelatici]

I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us,

Indeed, the Palestinians were helped out of their homes and off their land.

Only because they chose to declare war on the indigenous Jews, rather than live peacefully as Faisal suggested.

Some people never learn.

How can colonial settlers from Europe be indigenous to Palestine? You are out of your mind.

Of course the native people of Palestine resisted subjugation by European settler colonists, WTF is the matter with you.

 

[Sixties Fan]

I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us,

Indeed, the Palestinians were helped out of their homes and off their land.

Only because they chose to declare war on the indigenous Jews, rather than live peacefully as Faisal suggested.

Some people never learn.

How can colonial settlers from Europe be indigenous to Palestine? You are out of your mind.

Of course the native people of Palestine resisted subjugation by European settler colonists, WTF is the matter with you.

Very easy Habib.

Keep up with me.

The Jews were living in Asia Minor, the land of Israel. Some of them migrated to other areas of the known world, in Asia or in Europe.
They remained there for centuries, if not even longer, like the Jews who left after the destruction of the first Temple, or those who followed Caesar after the Romans took over Judea, or the Jews who were taken to Europe by the Romans after the destruction of the second Temple.

Got it?

Jews from Asia Minor, the Land of Israel, went to Europe. And later they decided they wanted to go back to Asia Minor, their ancient homeland, the Land of Israel.

After 2000 years of Christian terrorism on Jews, those Jews decided that they had had enough of those bastards and it was time to go back to their ancient homeland and take over and be sovereign again of their ancient land, living together with all other people already living there, be it Jews who had always lived there, Jews who had returned at any other time, the Arabs, the Druze, the Beduins, the Bahai, and everyone else who was living on their ancient land.

And they succeeded in spite of all the attempts to kill them all.
And they created a beautiful, great, wonderful and successful country out of the need to survive against all the terrorist attempts not only by the Christians but by the Muslims as well.

Because in the end, absolutely nothing makes extreme sick Christians and Muslims happy then to attack, rape, rob, expel, convert, but especially.....kill Jews.

It is a sport with them.

It is so simple, anyone can understand it.

Now, can you?