Roudy
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Bullshit, Ottoman records indicate over 40,000 Jews in Jerusalem alone.
The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
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montelatici
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No, Ottoman records show that there were less than 8,000 Jews in all of Palestine in 1850. As depicted in the Ottoman census posted earlier. Do you think you somehow "win" a forum contest by posting nonsense and deflecting?
Roudy
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So you think by repeating this gibberish thousands of time over multiple threads it somehow magically becomes true?
http://badil.org/phocadownload/Badil_docs/publications/Jerusalem1948-CHAP1.PDF
Ottoman Jerusalem: The Growth of the City outside the Walls
EDUCATION IN OTTOMAN JERUSALEM
A publication on education in greater Syria from 1882 showed that there were
a total of 3,854 students in school in Jerusalem (2,768 boys and 1,086 girls) and
235 teachers. The number of girls in Christian schools (Evangelical, Greek
Orthodox, Latin, Greek Catholic, and Armenian) were slightly more than the number
of boys (926 girls to 861 boys). While the majority of these students were Christians
four of the Evangelical schools (two for boys and two for girls) totaling 138 students
exclusively taught Jews. In addition, there were 1,707 students in Jewish schools,
160 of which were girls. In the eight Muslim schools, all of which were for boys,
there were 360 students. In 1891, “the Government opened a general [secondary]
school (Rushdiya) [sic] in our city, where all the children of the city, regardless of
their religion, could attend classes in Arabic, Turkish, French, and the basic
sciences.” It was also recorded that a Muslim school for girls had been established.
Population Growth
Jerusalem had become the largest city in Palestine and the political and cultural
center of the country at the end of the Ottoman era, on the eve of World War I.
Much scholarship on the subject reveals the difficulties in trying to establish
definitive population estimates for this period. The Ottoman census figures of 1905
reveal a total of 32,400 Ottoman nationals in Jerusalem: 13,400 Jews, 11,000
Muslims, and 8,000 Christians. However, these numbers do not reflect those with
foreign nationality living in the city which more than likely would raise the numbers
of Jews and Christians.
Jewish sources for this year contend a much higher number,
including one estimating 50,000 Jews in a total population of 75,000.
The Ottoman sources for 1914 for the entire
Qada' of Jerusalem, give the number of Jewish citizens to be 18,190.
"In 1917, Colonel Zaki Bey, head of the Jerusalem Wheat Syndicate,
reported to Jamal Pasha that Jerusalem had 31,147 Jews in an overall
population of 53,410. These figures were based on birth certificates
and police records; their accuracy is proven by the first compre-
hensive census in Jerusalem, made by the British in 1922. This
census showed a general population of 62,000, including 34,300
Jews."
Statistics that record the residential area of the population in the different parts
of the city were not taken at this period. However, it is known that at the beginning
of the British Mandate, the area of the New City was four times greater than that of
the Old City.
Residents of the New City at the end of Ottoman rule, according to
Ben-AriehÂ’s estimates, were as follows: 2,000-2,400 Muslims, around 15% of the
estimated 12,000 Muslim Jerusalemites, and 29,000 of the total 45,000 Jews.
Christians constituted 15% of the population in the New City (or approximately 5-
6,000 people).
montelatici
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A lot of fake facts from propaganda sites. I provided the facts from the source documents. You lose.
montelatici
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But the facts show that there were about 8,000 Jews in Palestine between 1844 through 1856. So your Hasbara bullshit loses. I post the source data, not Hasbara propaganda.
P F Tinmore
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Roudy
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Get a life, your numbers from the 1800's include all of "Palestine" (which included Syria and parts of many Arab countries today) of which the ottomans didn't even recognize such a thing as "Palestine" for the 700 years that they ruled the region. That is assuming your source isn't bogus and irrelvant, which it usually is.
Another epic propaganda fail. Ha ha ha.
Roudy
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The untold story of Pallywood IsalmoNazi propaganda. Click if you dare. Well actually it isn't untold, in fact the deception campaign is well known.
montelatici
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It is the source data. Give up. Of course Filistin was a region recognized by the Ottomans, your Hasbara bullshit was debunked long ago. You always lose, you idiot, because you try to use propaganda to dispute the facts.
Mandel Neville J. Ottoman Policy | Zionism | Palestine (Region)
Roudy
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Pffffttt. More repetitive propaganda. The Ottomans started calling it "Falastine" as a result of European influences. It had been called Southern Syria throughout Ottoman and Arab rule before that.
Source data? Ha ha ha. Look at the bibliography of the paper in the footnotes, it's quite extensive.
So again, you have no numbers that contradict a clear Jewish majority in Jerusalem in the 1800's as indicated by the Jersualem Ottoman census of 1905-1906.
You missed the part of your own document that said "Jews were allowed to settle" in fact they were invited by the ottomans as early as the 1400's since they recognized how holy the land is to the Jews, more than anyone else.
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montelatici
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Roudy
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Like I said you intentionally omitted the part that said Jews were allowed to settle. Amazing that the Jews never took no for an answer, and kept coming back, even though the Ottomans changed their initial posture in the 1500's from asking the Jews to come to Palestine to cracking down on entry in the 1800's, back to allowing them to enter. That is how Jews maintained a majority in Jerusalem and several other cities according to the Ottoman's own numbers.
Propaganda fail from a know con artist.
This is the part from your own document that you missed, liar. Read and weep!
"For all this, growing numbers of Jews continued to reach Palestine, and in April 1900 the Mutasarr!f of Jerusalem sent the Grand Vezir a synopsis of the report submitted the previous autumn to the Administrative Council by the local Commission which was supposed to enforce the entry restrictions. Two months later, in June, a committee of enquiry made up of three senior officials from the Ministries of War and Internal Affairs, and from the Cadastre was sent to Palestine.1 19 Officially this Commission came to investigate questions concerning land purchases and building on the colony at Zikhron Ya'aqov but Aaron Aaronsohn, the agronomist, who testified before the commissioners, was alarmed at their inclination to overstep the boundaries of their formal mandate and interest themselves in wider questions of Jewish settlement in Palestine. 120 Then in the autumn of that year the Council of Ministers consolidated the regulations governing Jewish entry and land purchase in Palestine with a view to solving all the problems which had troubled the local authorities in recent years. 121 As from January 28, 1901,122 Ottoman and foreign Jews 'long resident' in Palestine and those 'whose residence is not prohibited' were to enjoy the same rights as other Ottoman subjects. They could buy miri land and build on it in accordance with the Land Code.
Thus, step by step, the status of Jews illegally resident for many years in Palestine had been regularised. They were to be treated as Ottoman subjects, and they, like all Ottomans, could buy land and build on it. Similarly the disabilities previously suffered by Ottoman Jews on account of the recent immigrants had been removed. However, it was still forbidden for any property owner to assist recent Jewish immigrants to remain in Palestine. There were changes in the regulations regarding Jewish pilgrims as well. They were no longer required to pay a cash deposit guaranteeing their departure after one month as previously. Instead, all Jews visiting Palestine as pilgrims (including Ottoman subjects) were to surrender their passports or papers on entry, and in exchange they were to receive a residence permit allowing them to stay in Palestine for three months. This permit, costing one piastre, was to differ in form from other documents given to visitors entering Palestine, and it soon became known as the 'Red Slip' because of its colour. It was to be handed back when the pilgrims departed, so that a check could be kept on Jews visiting Palestine. Detailed statistics were to be compiled at the end of each month to enable the authorities to expel pilgrims whose permits had expired. Ottoman officials were warned that failure to enforce these orders would be severely punished.
But, carefully drafted as they were, the consolidated regulations were fatally flawed. Jews could still enter Palestine as pilgrims and certain categories of Jews illegally resident in Palestine had been granted the right to purchase land. And, on top of that, the Powers did not waste time in unceremoniously rejecting the new regulations. 123 Herein lies a paradox. The Ottoman Government was opposed to modern Jewish settlement in Palestine from the outset. It had good reasons for its opposition and these reasons grew stronger with the passage of time. It knew of Herzl's ideas well before the Zionist Movement was founded. Abdiulhamid too was personally involved and opposed. Ottoman policy was thus clear and constant. It was quickly backed up with restrictions on Jewish entry into Palestine and land purchase there. And, for all that, it failed. But the paradox, as the phrase has it, was more apparent than real. Important defects in the Government's policy have been mentioned. But there was another reason for the failure of Ottoman policy towards modern Jewish settlement in Palestine. It lay in the very real difficulties involved in putting the policy into practice in Palestine. This aspect of the question forms the subject of a second article which is to appear in the next number of this journal. "
OUCH!
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montelatici
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Ouch is right. For you. "Excluding Palestine"
Roudy
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Read again, this is from your own document. By pretending that you didn't get exposed and humiliated, you just confirmed that you actually did! Ha ha ha.
Ouch is right. For you. "Excluding Palestine"
Thus, step by step, the status of Jews illegally resident for many years in Palestine had been regularised. They were to be treated as Ottoman subjects, and they, like all Ottomans, could buy land and build on it. Similarly the disabilities previously suffered by Ottoman Jews on account of the recent immigrants had been removed. However, it was still forbidden for any property owner to assist recent Jewish immigrants to remain in Palestine. There were changes in the regulations regarding Jewish pilgrims as well. They were no longer required to pay a cash deposit guaranteeing their departure after one month as previously. Instead, all Jews visiting Palestine as pilgrims (including Ottoman subjects) were to surrender their passports or papers on entry, and in exchange they were to receive a residence permit allowing them to stay in Palestine for three months. This permit, costing one piastre, was to differ in form from other documents given to visitors entering Palestine, and it soon became known as the 'Red Slip' because of its colour. It was to be handed back when the pilgrims departed, so that a check could be kept on Jews visiting Palestine. Detailed statistics were to be compiled at the end of each month to enable the authorities to expel pilgrims whose permits had expired. Ottoman officials were warned that failure to enforce these orders would be severely punished.
But, carefully drafted as they were, the consolidated regulations were fatally flawed. Jews could still enter Palestine as pilgrims and certain categories of Jews illegally resident in Palestine had been granted the right to purchase land. And, on top of that, the Powers did not waste time in unceremoniously rejecting the new regulations. Herein lies a paradox. The Ottoman Government was opposed to modern Jewish settlement in Palestine from the outset. It had good reasons for its opposition and these reasons grew stronger with the passage of time. It knew of Herzl's ideas well before the Zionist Movement was founded. Abdiulhamid too was personally involved and opposed. Ottoman policy was thus clear and constant. It was quickly backed up with restrictions on Jewish entry into Palestine and land purchase there. And, for all that, it failed. But the paradox, as the phrase has it, was more apparent than real. Important defects in the Government's policy have been mentioned. But there was another reason for the failure of Ottoman policy towards modern Jewish settlement in Palestine. It lay in the very real difficulties involved in putting the policy into practice in Palestine. This aspect of the question forms the subject of a second article which is to appear in the next number of this journal. "
montelatici
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Oh dear, the Ottomans did not welcome the European Jews and called the territory Palestine.Double ouch for Ruddy the clown dancer.
Roudy
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Oh dear, I've repetitively pointed Out the conclusion of the document, which says that the policy failed and Jews managed to get in, regardless of the new anti immigration policies that came about in the 1800's.
In other words your own document totally negates your claims and makes you look like a fool.
And yet, you keep posting these meaningless snippets. The only conclusion one can arrive is that you must enjoy this self humiliation.
But, carefully drafted as they were, the consolidated regulations were fatally flawed. Jews could still enter Palestine as pilgrims and certain categories of Jews illegally resident in Palestine had been granted the right to purchase land. And, on top of that, the Powers did not waste time in unceremoniously rejecting the new regulations. Herein lies a paradox. The Ottoman Government was opposed to modern Jewish settlement in Palestine from the outset. It had good reasons for its opposition and these reasons grew stronger with the passage of time. It knew of Herzl's ideas well before the Zionist Movement was founded. Abdiulhamid too was personally involved and opposed. Ottoman policy was thus clear and constant. It was quickly backed up with restrictions on Jewish entry into Palestine and land purchase there. And, for all that, it failed. But the paradox, as the phrase has it, was more apparent than real. Important defects in the Government's policy have been mentioned. But there was another reason for the failure of Ottoman policy towards modern Jewish settlement in Palestine. It lay in the very real difficulties involved in putting the policy into practice in Palestine. This aspect of the question forms the subject of a second article which is to appear in the next number of this journal. "
In other words your own document totally negates your claims and makes you look like a fool.
And yet, you keep posting these meaningless snippets. The only conclusion one can arrive is that you must enjoy this self humiliation.
But, carefully drafted as they were, the consolidated regulations were fatally flawed. Jews could still enter Palestine as pilgrims and certain categories of Jews illegally resident in Palestine had been granted the right to purchase land. And, on top of that, the Powers did not waste time in unceremoniously rejecting the new regulations. Herein lies a paradox. The Ottoman Government was opposed to modern Jewish settlement in Palestine from the outset. It had good reasons for its opposition and these reasons grew stronger with the passage of time. It knew of Herzl's ideas well before the Zionist Movement was founded. Abdiulhamid too was personally involved and opposed. Ottoman policy was thus clear and constant. It was quickly backed up with restrictions on Jewish entry into Palestine and land purchase there. And, for all that, it failed. But the paradox, as the phrase has it, was more apparent than real. Important defects in the Government's policy have been mentioned. But there was another reason for the failure of Ottoman policy towards modern Jewish settlement in Palestine. It lay in the very real difficulties involved in putting the policy into practice in Palestine. This aspect of the question forms the subject of a second article which is to appear in the next number of this journal. "
montelatici
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So the Europeans managed to get in, that wasn't the point at all idiot. The point is they weren't invited by the Ottomans to enter Palestine as you so often claim, you fool.
Let us repeat from the source.
"...................on April 28, 1882: The Ottoman Government informs all [Jews] wishing to immigrate into Turkey that they are not permitted to settle in Palestine. They may immigrate into the other provinces of [the Empire] and settle as they wish, provided only that they become Ottoman subjects and accept the obligation to fulfil the laws of the Empire
http://ismi.emory.edu/home/documents/Readings/Mandel, Neville J. Ottoman Policy.pdf
Let us repeat from the source.
"...................on April 28, 1882: The Ottoman Government informs all [Jews] wishing to immigrate into Turkey that they are not permitted to settle in Palestine. They may immigrate into the other provinces of [the Empire] and settle as they wish, provided only that they become Ottoman subjects and accept the obligation to fulfil the laws of the Empire
http://ismi.emory.edu/home/documents/Readings/Mandel, Neville J. Ottoman Policy.pdf
P F Tinmore
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Israeli Apartheid Week Sydney 2012 - Professor John Docker
Roudy
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Bzzzzt wrong again, you cite an article which actually negates your claim, and covers the policy as of 1882. It does not mention what happened in the 1500's during the expulsion, which Jews were invited to the Ottoman Empire including many cities in "Palestine", which the ottomans called Syria, or Southern Syria for 700 years. And even your bullshit article doesn't call the Jews "Europeans" as both the Ottomans and the Spaniards recognized that they were descendants of Jews who fled the destruction of the temple in ancient Israel.
In other words you promote one fake narrarative after another.
Epic fail again.
Golden Jerusalem
"The Spanish were allowed to settle in the wealthier cities of the empire, especially in the European provinces (cities such as: Istanbul, Sarajevo, and Nicopolis), Western and Northern Anatolia, but also in the Mediterranean coastal regions (for example: Jerusalem, Safed, Damascus). Izmir was not settled by Spanish Jews until later. The Jewish population at Jerusalem increased from 70 families in 1488 to 1,500 at the beginning of the 16th century. That of Safed increased from 300 to 2,000 families and almost surpassed Jerusalem in importance."
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