The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Coyote]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And an excellent point it is. Do we need to go back to the cave man? Even they would be from someplace else. People have been on the move since the beginning of time. Every "people" evolve and new people and new ideas are a part of that evolution.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

This is an argument against any sort of indigeneity. This argument claims that there is no such thing as foreign settlers on any land.

Yet you frequently argue that Jews are "foreign settlers". You can't have it both ways. So which part of your argument did you want to withdraw?

My guess, since this has come up before, is that you will continue to assert that no peoples are foreign settlers, well, except Jews. Which confirms Sixties point that the Jewish people are UNIQUELY set apart.

Arafat, father of ”palestinian” nationalism, was “indigenous” to Egypt, where he was born and educated.

Well then, according to your logic - Jews who were born in Germany are "indigenous" to Germany where they were born and educated. Do you see where this argument goes?

You actually think Jewish nationalism started in Germany?

That isn't what I said. Go back and reread it. I could have easily used Russia, Poland, France, England, America.

 

[MartyNYC]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And an excellent point it is. Do we need to go back to the cave man? Even they would be from someplace else. People have been on the move since the beginning of time. Every "people" evolve and new people and new ideas are a part of that evolution.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

This is an argument against any sort of indigeneity. This argument claims that there is no such thing as foreign settlers on any land.

Yet you frequently argue that Jews are "foreign settlers". You can't have it both ways. So which part of your argument did you want to withdraw?

My guess, since this has come up before, is that you will continue to assert that no peoples are foreign settlers, well, except Jews. Which confirms Sixties point that the Jewish people are UNIQUELY set apart.

Arafat, father of ”palestinian” nationalism, was “indigenous” to Egypt, where he was born and educated.

Well then, according to your logic - Jews who were born in Germany are "indigenous" to Germany where they were born and educated. Do you see where this argument goes?

You actually think Jewish nationalism started in Germany?

That isn't what I said. Go back and reread it. I could have easily used Russia, Poland, France, England, America.

You didn’t know Jewish nationalism started in ancient Israel?

 

[Shusha]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

Sometimes...I wonder.

What you call people who's ANCESTORS have been there as long as the Jewish people?

How do they suddenly become "invaders" when their people never left the area?

I differentiate between invading cultures and individuals. So, again, I'll ask you: what is the purpose of acknowledgement of indigenous cultures?

 

[Coyote]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

Sometimes...I wonder.

What you call people who's ANCESTORS have been there as long as the Jewish people?

How do they suddenly become "invaders" when their people never left the area?

I differentiate between invading cultures and individuals. So, again, I'll ask you: what is the purpose of acknowledgement of indigenous cultures?

I'm not sure, to be honest. Sometimes it seems it is used to create greater rights at the expense of other indigenous inhabitants.

 

[Coyote]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And an excellent point it is. Do we need to go back to the cave man? Even they would be from someplace else. People have been on the move since the beginning of time. Every "people" evolve and new people and new ideas are a part of that evolution.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

This is an argument against any sort of indigeneity. This argument claims that there is no such thing as foreign settlers on any land.

Yet you frequently argue that Jews are "foreign settlers". You can't have it both ways. So which part of your argument did you want to withdraw?

My guess, since this has come up before, is that you will continue to assert that no peoples are foreign settlers, well, except Jews. Which confirms Sixties point that the Jewish people are UNIQUELY set apart.

Arafat, father of ”palestinian” nationalism, was “indigenous” to Egypt, where he was born and educated.

Well then, according to your logic - Jews who were born in Germany are "indigenous" to Germany where they were born and educated. Do you see where this argument goes?

You actually think Jewish nationalism started in Germany?

That isn't what I said. Go back and reread it. I could have easily used Russia, Poland, France, England, America.

You didn’t know Jewish nationalism started in ancient Israel?

How exactly did we get from defining who is a "foreigner" to Jewish Nationalism?

Though, if we are going to switch to that, no it did not start in ancient Israel. The idea of a Jewish NATIONAL identity really started around the same time as other national identities - coming out of the break up of former empires.

 

[Shusha]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

Sometimes...I wonder.

What you call people who's ANCESTORS have been there as long as the Jewish people?

How do they suddenly become "invaders" when their people never left the area?

I differentiate between invading cultures and individuals. So, again, I'll ask you: what is the purpose of acknowledgement of indigenous cultures?

I'm not sure, to be honest. Sometimes it seems it is used to create greater rights at the expense of other indigenous inhabitants.

Only if you intentionally misinterpret the meaning of the term "indigenous".

Can you give me an example, of indigenous peoples who have "greater rights" at the expense of other peoples, and what those "greater rights" look like?

 

[MartyNYC]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And an excellent point it is. Do we need to go back to the cave man? Even they would be from someplace else. People have been on the move since the beginning of time. Every "people" evolve and new people and new ideas are a part of that evolution.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

This is an argument against any sort of indigeneity. This argument claims that there is no such thing as foreign settlers on any land.

Yet you frequently argue that Jews are "foreign settlers". You can't have it both ways. So which part of your argument did you want to withdraw?

My guess, since this has come up before, is that you will continue to assert that no peoples are foreign settlers, well, except Jews. Which confirms Sixties point that the Jewish people are UNIQUELY set apart.

Arafat, father of ”palestinian” nationalism, was “indigenous” to Egypt, where he was born and educated.

Well then, according to your logic - Jews who were born in Germany are "indigenous" to Germany where they were born and educated. Do you see where this argument goes?

You actually think Jewish nationalism started in Germany?

That isn't what I said. Go back and reread it. I could have easily used Russia, Poland, France, England, America.

You didn’t know Jewish nationalism started in ancient Israel?

How exactly did we get from defining who is a "foreigner" to Jewish Nationalism?

Though, if we are going to switch to that, no it did not start in ancient Israel. The idea of a Jewish NATIONAL identity really started around the same time as other national identities - coming out of the break up of former empires.

Jewish nationalism began in antiquity. This comes as news to you?

 

[Coyote]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

Sometimes...I wonder.

What you call people who's ANCESTORS have been there as long as the Jewish people?

How do they suddenly become "invaders" when their people never left the area?

I differentiate between invading cultures and individuals. So, again, I'll ask you: what is the purpose of acknowledgement of indigenous cultures?

I'm not sure, to be honest. Sometimes it seems it is used to create greater rights at the expense of other indigenous inhabitants.

Only if you intentionally misinterpret the meaning of the term "indigenous".

Can you give me an example, of indigenous peoples who have "greater rights" at the expense of other peoples, and what those "greater rights" look like?

Yes....

When the former Soviet Bloc countries broke up, ethnic Russians living in some of those areas (Ukraine, Georgia, Estonia etc) were at a cultural disadvantage and faced discrimination if not outright violence. They even lost their citizenship.

 

[Shusha]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

Sometimes...I wonder.

What you call people who's ANCESTORS have been there as long as the Jewish people?

How do they suddenly become "invaders" when their people never left the area?

I differentiate between invading cultures and individuals. So, again, I'll ask you: what is the purpose of acknowledgement of indigenous cultures?

I'm not sure, to be honest. Sometimes it seems it is used to create greater rights at the expense of other indigenous inhabitants.

Only if you intentionally misinterpret the meaning of the term "indigenous".

Can you give me an example, of indigenous peoples who have "greater rights" at the expense of other peoples, and what those "greater rights" look like?

Yes....

When the former Soviet Bloc countries broke up, ethnic Russians living in some of those areas (Ukraine, Georgia, Estonia etc) were at a cultural disadvantage and faced discrimination if not outright violence. They even lost their citizenship.

Neither of us are supporting discrimination, so I think I can let that go.

Talk to me about "cultural disadvantage" and what you mean by that, especially as it relates to "greater rights".

 

[Coyote]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And an excellent point it is. Do we need to go back to the cave man? Even they would be from someplace else. People have been on the move since the beginning of time. Every "people" evolve and new people and new ideas are a part of that evolution.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

This is an argument against any sort of indigeneity. This argument claims that there is no such thing as foreign settlers on any land.

Yet you frequently argue that Jews are "foreign settlers". You can't have it both ways. So which part of your argument did you want to withdraw?

My guess, since this has come up before, is that you will continue to assert that no peoples are foreign settlers, well, except Jews. Which confirms Sixties point that the Jewish people are UNIQUELY set apart.

Arafat, father of ”palestinian” nationalism, was “indigenous” to Egypt, where he was born and educated.

Well then, according to your logic - Jews who were born in Germany are "indigenous" to Germany where they were born and educated. Do you see where this argument goes?

You actually think Jewish nationalism started in Germany?

That isn't what I said. Go back and reread it. I could have easily used Russia, Poland, France, England, America.

You didn’t know Jewish nationalism started in ancient Israel?

How exactly did we get from defining who is a "foreigner" to Jewish Nationalism?

Though, if we are going to switch to that, no it did not start in ancient Israel. The idea of a Jewish NATIONAL identity really started around the same time as other national identities - coming out of the break up of former empires.

Jewish nationalism began in antiquity. This comes as news to you?

No. It didn't. There is really very little nationalistic relationship to the ancient state of Israel, and modern ideas of national identity. With the Jewish people it's often referred to as "zionism" and became a movement around the same time as many other subjugate peoples were also realizing theirs.

 

[MartyNYC]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And an excellent point it is. Do we need to go back to the cave man? Even they would be from someplace else. People have been on the move since the beginning of time. Every "people" evolve and new people and new ideas are a part of that evolution.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

This is an argument against any sort of indigeneity. This argument claims that there is no such thing as foreign settlers on any land.

Yet you frequently argue that Jews are "foreign settlers". You can't have it both ways. So which part of your argument did you want to withdraw?

My guess, since this has come up before, is that you will continue to assert that no peoples are foreign settlers, well, except Jews. Which confirms Sixties point that the Jewish people are UNIQUELY set apart.

Arafat, father of ”palestinian” nationalism, was “indigenous” to Egypt, where he was born and educated.

Well then, according to your logic - Jews who were born in Germany are "indigenous" to Germany where they were born and educated. Do you see where this argument goes?

You actually think Jewish nationalism started in Germany?

That isn't what I said. Go back and reread it. I could have easily used Russia, Poland, France, England, America.

You didn’t know Jewish nationalism started in ancient Israel?

How exactly did we get from defining who is a "foreigner" to Jewish Nationalism?

Though, if we are going to switch to that, no it did not start in ancient Israel. The idea of a Jewish NATIONAL identity really started around the same time as other national identities - coming out of the break up of former empires.

Jewish nationalism began in antiquity. This comes as news to you?

No. It didn't. There is really very little nationalistic relationship to the ancient state of Israel, and modern ideas of national identity. With the Jewish people it's often referred to as "zionism" and became a movement around the same time as many other subjugate peoples were also realizing theirs.

Josephus wrote about “the Jewish nation” 2,000 years ago, in “Antiquities Of The Jews.” You’re welcome.

 

[Coyote]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

Sometimes...I wonder.

What you call people who's ANCESTORS have been there as long as the Jewish people?

How do they suddenly become "invaders" when their people never left the area?

I differentiate between invading cultures and individuals. So, again, I'll ask you: what is the purpose of acknowledgement of indigenous cultures?

I'm not sure, to be honest. Sometimes it seems it is used to create greater rights at the expense of other indigenous inhabitants.

Only if you intentionally misinterpret the meaning of the term "indigenous".

Can you give me an example, of indigenous peoples who have "greater rights" at the expense of other peoples, and what those "greater rights" look like?

Yes....

When the former Soviet Bloc countries broke up, ethnic Russians living in some of those areas (Ukraine, Georgia, Estonia etc) were at a cultural disadvantage and faced discrimination if not outright violence. They even lost their citizenship.

Neither of us are supporting discrimination, so I think I can let that go.

Talk to me about "cultural disadvantage" and what you mean by that, especially as it relates to "greater rights".

Let me ask you something first: what do you mean by this? Only if you intentionally misinterpret the meaning of the term "indigenous".

 

[Coyote]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And an excellent point it is. Do we need to go back to the cave man? Even they would be from someplace else. People have been on the move since the beginning of time. Every "people" evolve and new people and new ideas are a part of that evolution.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

This is an argument against any sort of indigeneity. This argument claims that there is no such thing as foreign settlers on any land.

Yet you frequently argue that Jews are "foreign settlers". You can't have it both ways. So which part of your argument did you want to withdraw?

My guess, since this has come up before, is that you will continue to assert that no peoples are foreign settlers, well, except Jews. Which confirms Sixties point that the Jewish people are UNIQUELY set apart.

Arafat, father of ”palestinian” nationalism, was “indigenous” to Egypt, where he was born and educated.

Well then, according to your logic - Jews who were born in Germany are "indigenous" to Germany where they were born and educated. Do you see where this argument goes?

You actually think Jewish nationalism started in Germany?

That isn't what I said. Go back and reread it. I could have easily used Russia, Poland, France, England, America.

You didn’t know Jewish nationalism started in ancient Israel?

How exactly did we get from defining who is a "foreigner" to Jewish Nationalism?

Though, if we are going to switch to that, no it did not start in ancient Israel. The idea of a Jewish NATIONAL identity really started around the same time as other national identities - coming out of the break up of former empires.

Jewish nationalism began in antiquity. This comes as news to you?

No. It didn't. There is really very little nationalistic relationship to the ancient state of Israel, and modern ideas of national identity. With the Jewish people it's often referred to as "zionism" and became a movement around the same time as many other subjugate peoples were also realizing theirs.

Josephus wrote about “the Jewish nation” 2,000 years ago, in “Antiquities Of The Jews.” You’re welcome.

Welcome for what?

Do you understand what nationalist movements are?

 

[Coyote]

I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).

The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.

The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.

Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.

 

[Coyote]

I post as I think....rather than in one organized fashion. I CAN see the validity of the argument for indigenous cultural rights in terms of their rights to their heritage sites.

 

[Shusha]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

Sometimes...I wonder.

What you call people who's ANCESTORS have been there as long as the Jewish people?

How do they suddenly become "invaders" when their people never left the area?

I differentiate between invading cultures and individuals. So, again, I'll ask you: what is the purpose of acknowledgement of indigenous cultures?

I'm not sure, to be honest. Sometimes it seems it is used to create greater rights at the expense of other indigenous inhabitants.

Only if you intentionally misinterpret the meaning of the term "indigenous".

Can you give me an example, of indigenous peoples who have "greater rights" at the expense of other peoples, and what those "greater rights" look like?

Yes....

When the former Soviet Bloc countries broke up, ethnic Russians living in some of those areas (Ukraine, Georgia, Estonia etc) were at a cultural disadvantage and faced discrimination if not outright violence. They even lost their citizenship.

Neither of us are supporting discrimination, so I think I can let that go.

Talk to me about "cultural disadvantage" and what you mean by that, especially as it relates to "greater rights".

Let me ask you something first: what do you mean by this? Only if you intentionally misinterpret the meaning of the term "indigenous".

"Indigenous" / = / "non-local culture but been there for a really, really long time"

So, why is the distinction important?

 

[Coyote]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

Sometimes...I wonder.

What you call people who's ANCESTORS have been there as long as the Jewish people?

How do they suddenly become "invaders" when their people never left the area?

I differentiate between invading cultures and individuals. So, again, I'll ask you: what is the purpose of acknowledgement of indigenous cultures?

I'm not sure, to be honest. Sometimes it seems it is used to create greater rights at the expense of other indigenous inhabitants.

Only if you intentionally misinterpret the meaning of the term "indigenous".

Can you give me an example, of indigenous peoples who have "greater rights" at the expense of other peoples, and what those "greater rights" look like?

Yes....

When the former Soviet Bloc countries broke up, ethnic Russians living in some of those areas (Ukraine, Georgia, Estonia etc) were at a cultural disadvantage and faced discrimination if not outright violence. They even lost their citizenship.

Neither of us are supporting discrimination, so I think I can let that go.

Talk to me about "cultural disadvantage" and what you mean by that, especially as it relates to "greater rights".

Let me ask you something first: what do you mean by this? Only if you intentionally misinterpret the meaning of the term "indigenous".

"Indigenous" / = / "non-local culture but been there for a really, really long time"

So, why is the distinction important?

I am not convinced it is other than rights to sacred/heritage sites.

 

[MartyNYC]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And an excellent point it is. Do we need to go back to the cave man? Even they would be from someplace else. People have been on the move since the beginning of time. Every "people" evolve and new people and new ideas are a part of that evolution.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

This is an argument against any sort of indigeneity. This argument claims that there is no such thing as foreign settlers on any land.

Yet you frequently argue that Jews are "foreign settlers". You can't have it both ways. So which part of your argument did you want to withdraw?

My guess, since this has come up before, is that you will continue to assert that no peoples are foreign settlers, well, except Jews. Which confirms Sixties point that the Jewish people are UNIQUELY set apart.

Arafat, father of ”palestinian” nationalism, was “indigenous” to Egypt, where he was born and educated.

Well then, according to your logic - Jews who were born in Germany are "indigenous" to Germany where they were born and educated. Do you see where this argument goes?

You actually think Jewish nationalism started in Germany?

That isn't what I said. Go back and reread it. I could have easily used Russia, Poland, France, England, America.

You didn’t know Jewish nationalism started in ancient Israel?

How exactly did we get from defining who is a "foreigner" to Jewish Nationalism?

Though, if we are going to switch to that, no it did not start in ancient Israel. The idea of a Jewish NATIONAL identity really started around the same time as other national identities - coming out of the break up of former empires.

Jewish nationalism began in antiquity. This comes as news to you?

No. It didn't. There is really very little nationalistic relationship to the ancient state of Israel, and modern ideas of national identity. With the Jewish people it's often referred to as "zionism" and became a movement around the same time as many other subjugate peoples were also realizing theirs.

Josephus wrote about “the Jewish nation” 2,000 years ago, in “Antiquities Of The Jews.” You’re welcome.

Welcome for what?

Do you understand what nationalist movements are?

You lost the debate.

 

[Coyote]

If I were to believe your claims, it would be believing that every single non-Jewish Palestinian descended from Arabs in the Arabian peninsula, and that is simply not true.

The discussion is not about physical, genetic or blood descent of individuals. The discussion is about a collective over-taking of the indigenous population (the Jewish people) and replacing that culture with another culture(s). Thus EVERY SINGLE Arab Muslim by DEFINITION is "descended" from the Arabs who originated in other places and over-took the local, native, indigenous population. Why? Because the ARAB CULTURE was imported and, by one method or another, imposed on the local, native, indigenous culture (the Jewish culture). And we can test this by examining and comparing the Arab Muslim cultures to other Arab Muslim cultures and contrasting it to local, native, indigenous Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli cultures.

It ignores the ancient history of the place and existence of many peoples in that area

Let's take a look at that. Which peoples existed in that area? How many peoples? Can you name them? What names would you assign to them? How do you differentiate this peoples from that peoples? How do you assign 'history' to this peoples or that peoples? What criteria are you using to determine any of these things?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And I'm going to add another piece to the pie. What is the POINT in trying to acknowledge indigenous cultures? What is the reason why we are trying to do it, as a global community?

And an excellent point it is. Do we need to go back to the cave man? Even they would be from someplace else. People have been on the move since the beginning of time. Every "people" evolve and new people and new ideas are a part of that evolution.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

Look across America with all its different colors, languages, and religions. Can you point out someone who does not belong here? Of course not. Everyone is American.

Everyone living in, or expelled from, Palestine is Palestinian.

This is an argument against any sort of indigeneity. This argument claims that there is no such thing as foreign settlers on any land.

Yet you frequently argue that Jews are "foreign settlers". You can't have it both ways. So which part of your argument did you want to withdraw?

My guess, since this has come up before, is that you will continue to assert that no peoples are foreign settlers, well, except Jews. Which confirms Sixties point that the Jewish people are UNIQUELY set apart.

Arafat, father of ”palestinian” nationalism, was “indigenous” to Egypt, where he was born and educated.

Well then, according to your logic - Jews who were born in Germany are "indigenous" to Germany where they were born and educated. Do you see where this argument goes?

You actually think Jewish nationalism started in Germany?

That isn't what I said. Go back and reread it. I could have easily used Russia, Poland, France, England, America.

You didn’t know Jewish nationalism started in ancient Israel?

How exactly did we get from defining who is a "foreigner" to Jewish Nationalism?

Though, if we are going to switch to that, no it did not start in ancient Israel. The idea of a Jewish NATIONAL identity really started around the same time as other national identities - coming out of the break up of former empires.

Jewish nationalism began in antiquity. This comes as news to you?

No. It didn't. There is really very little nationalistic relationship to the ancient state of Israel, and modern ideas of national identity. With the Jewish people it's often referred to as "zionism" and became a movement around the same time as many other subjugate peoples were also realizing theirs.

Josephus wrote about “the Jewish nation” 2,000 years ago, in “Antiquities Of The Jews.” You’re welcome.

Welcome for what?

Do you understand what nationalist movements are?

You lost the debate.

If you are going to claim that...well...you have to show us that you "won". The evidence is lacking.

 

[MartyNYC]

I think Shusha that the issue I have with the "indigenous" argument is this. When it comes to Palestine/Israel - it is almost always used to some how infringe on some population (and I'm not saying that is the argument you make because you do not base rights on this designation).

The arguments from the side that claims Palestinians are the "true" indigenous people, are used to fuel the "Jews are foreign invaders" claim.

The arguments from the side that claim Jews are the "true" indigenous people are used to fuel the "Palestinians are foreign invaders" claim.

Yet, I can not accept that a people who's ancestors have lived there for thousands of years are a "foreign invader" and no matter HOW you view the term it is a pejorative.

Arabs literally are foreign invaders to Syria, as part of the Arab conquests.