The Occupied Territories Are the Biggest Prison on Earth

[P F Tinmore]

The inhabitants of the region, later to become known as the Arab Palestinians, has some right to sovereignty over the territory; and they invoke the “right to self-determination” → including their demand for autonomy — or, in some cases, secession

Nobody has ever mentioned succession.

The Palestinian's right to sovereignty and self determination?

Sure, reaffirmed in subsequent UN resolutions.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Treaty of Lausanne did not create any country. And even if it did, the inhabitants of the former Enemy Occupied Territory Administration were NOT parties to the agreement. In fact, none of the other countries created out of the Mandate had the capacity to enforce any portion of the Treaty of the Agreement.

True, but irrelevant.

 

[flacaltenn]

Over-fed In Gaza LOL

That was before the siege. They haven't had any customers since.

That vid was posted 2010.. Club is STILL active. Don't spew stuff that is not true. Check their FaceBook page.

Roots The Club

I know it was an older video because it had Abbas and Haniyeh at the same table. (pre coup 2007)

There are many photos and videos on Facebook. It is all local events. you won't see any tourists which should be their major income.

Give it up.. You were speculating. Read the reviews on TripAdvisor..

I was just looking at the photos and videos. They were virtually all locals.

How do you know that? All the reviews for the swanky Gaza hot spots mention UN personnel and foreign visitors. That's where the money is coming from to HAVE these luxuries.

 

[flacaltenn]

Article 1, Treaty between Great Britain and Jordan 1946
His Majesty The King recognises Trans-Jordan as a fully independent State and His Highness The Amir as the sovereign thereof.

Where is Britain's treaty with Israel?

Did Britain ever have a dispute with Israel? If not -- no treaty required. What's this have to do with the allegations that life is prison in the occupied territorities?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Article 1, Treaty between Great Britain and Jordan 1946
His Majesty The King recognises Trans-Jordan as a fully independent State and His Highness The Amir as the sovereign thereof.

Where is Britain's treaty with Israel?

Did Britain ever have a dispute with Israel? If not -- no treaty required. What's this have to do with the allegations that life is prison in the occupied territorities?

That wasn't the question.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Article 1, Treaty between Great Britain and Jordan 1946
His Majesty The King recognises Trans-Jordan as a fully independent State and His Highness The Amir as the sovereign thereof.

Where is Britain's treaty with Israel?

Did Britain ever have a dispute with Israel? If not -- no treaty required. What's this have to do with the allegations that life is prison in the occupied territorities?

It doesn't. It was just a direct response to one of Rocco's long, irrelevant, off topic rants.

Sorry.

 

[fanger]

Not only open air, but at times, and nowadays in Gaza, a maximum-security prison. Recently, the Israeli government officially celebrated the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria. Already in 1967, Judea and Samaria, namely the West Bank, were liberated areas, not territories to be held in custody for the return of a peace agreement, in the eyes of all the Zionist parties, while Gaza was seen as an enclave that had to be always guarded either from within or without.

Thus in 1967, the Israeli government then -- and all the successive governments since -- regarded the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as territories that had always be under either direct or indirect Israeli rule. The second decision was that the people who live in these territories will not be granted Israeli citizenship, nor were they allowed to have their own sovereignty or independence. They were also not driven out, as were the Palestinians in 1948. So, they were intentionally defined as people without citizen rights and at the mercy of first military rule, and then civil administration that did not only violate their civic rights, but also their human rights. The only system I know where people are deprived of these basic rights is the prison system. These people were incarcerated in this mega-prison for no other crime than being Palestinians. They were allowed some benefits, such as working in Israel and a limited measure of autonomy if they consented to such life -- this is the open prison model, and they were collectively punished when they resisted, and this is the maximum-security prison.

The Occupied Territories Are the Biggest Prison on Earth

Any war that could have been prevented by active and intensive diplomacy is a war of choice.

here's the deal Fanger. The fact that Israel won't grant citizenship to Palestinians is not really an issue. We could PROMOTE it to an issue with a plebiscite asking every Pali if they WANT TO become a citizen of Israel.

But you and I know what the results of that polling would show. OR -- maybe I'd just fall over shocked.
If even 10% wanted citizenship and pledged to abide by Israeli governance and law -- I'd support efforts for Israel to assimilate them. But most of this complaint is based on the VERY wrong premise that CITIZENSHIP and Israeli rights is what these folks want.

I think you need to be more in sync with the folks you think you're "helping"...

The Jewish illegal immigrants to Palestine took over, they didn't assimilate

 

[P F Tinmore]

That was before the siege. They haven't had any customers since.

That vid was posted 2010.. Club is STILL active. Don't spew stuff that is not true. Check their FaceBook page.

Roots The Club

I know it was an older video because it had Abbas and Haniyeh at the same table. (pre coup 2007)

There are many photos and videos on Facebook. It is all local events. you won't see any tourists which should be their major income.

Give it up.. You were speculating. Read the reviews on TripAdvisor..

I was just looking at the photos and videos. They were virtually all locals.

How do you know that? All the reviews for the swanky Gaza hot spots mention UN personnel and foreign visitors. That's where the money is coming from to HAVE these luxuries.

UN personnel, NGOs, and journalists are not tourists. It is almost impossible to get into (or out of) Gaza.

Hell, Laila El Haddad can't get into Gaza and she frikken lives there.

 

[flacaltenn]

Not only open air, but at times, and nowadays in Gaza, a maximum-security prison. Recently, the Israeli government officially celebrated the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria. Already in 1967, Judea and Samaria, namely the West Bank, were liberated areas, not territories to be held in custody for the return of a peace agreement, in the eyes of all the Zionist parties, while Gaza was seen as an enclave that had to be always guarded either from within or without.

Thus in 1967, the Israeli government then -- and all the successive governments since -- regarded the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as territories that had always be under either direct or indirect Israeli rule. The second decision was that the people who live in these territories will not be granted Israeli citizenship, nor were they allowed to have their own sovereignty or independence. They were also not driven out, as were the Palestinians in 1948. So, they were intentionally defined as people without citizen rights and at the mercy of first military rule, and then civil administration that did not only violate their civic rights, but also their human rights. The only system I know where people are deprived of these basic rights is the prison system. These people were incarcerated in this mega-prison for no other crime than being Palestinians. They were allowed some benefits, such as working in Israel and a limited measure of autonomy if they consented to such life -- this is the open prison model, and they were collectively punished when they resisted, and this is the maximum-security prison.

The Occupied Territories Are the Biggest Prison on Earth

Any war that could have been prevented by active and intensive diplomacy is a war of choice.

here's the deal Fanger. The fact that Israel won't grant citizenship to Palestinians is not really an issue. We could PROMOTE it to an issue with a plebiscite asking every Pali if they WANT TO become a citizen of Israel.

But you and I know what the results of that polling would show. OR -- maybe I'd just fall over shocked.
If even 10% wanted citizenship and pledged to abide by Israeli governance and law -- I'd support efforts for Israel to assimilate them. But most of this complaint is based on the VERY wrong premise that CITIZENSHIP and Israeli rights is what these folks want.

I think you need to be more in sync with the folks you think you're "helping"...

The Jewish illegal immigrants to Palestine took over, they didn't assimilate

Sounds like you want your "people" to go to war and die.. Gee, ya think they might elect you as their leader?

You have strange concept of "helping" Palestinians -- if your suggesting that they rely mostly on force of arms to solve their issues. I think if you understand that their situation is NOT as bleak as you ATTEMPT to paint it, maybe they're not suffering enough for you to lead them to violence and war.

If you misunderstand what their daily life is like compared to their options in other neighboring countries, MAYBE it might explain their reluctance to follow your lead...

 

[fanger]

You sound Jewish American

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Occupied Territories Are the Biggest Prison on Earth
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

That is a fair question!

Article 1, Treaty between Great Britain and Jordan 1946
His Majesty The King recognises Trans-Jordan as a fully independent State and His Highness The Amir as the sovereign thereof.

Where is Britain's treaty with Israel?

(COMMENT)

Jordan was released by the Mandatory (Great Britain/UK) while the Mandate was still in effect.

Israel "Declared Independence" after the British Mandate was terminated and under the guidance of the UN Palestine Commission:

• After having complete (to the extend possible) the "Steps Preparatory to Independence," as recommended by Resolution 181 (II); and under the power of self-determination.
• Royalty recognizes Royalty. In the case of Jordan, there was the matter of royalty. In the case of Israel, there was not.​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Occupied Territories Are the Biggest Prison on Earth
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

That is a fair question!

Article 1, Treaty between Great Britain and Jordan 1946
His Majesty The King recognises Trans-Jordan as a fully independent State and His Highness The Amir as the sovereign thereof.

Where is Britain's treaty with Israel?

(COMMENT)

Jordan was released by the Mandatory (Great Britain/UK) while the Mandate was still in effect.

Israel "Declared Independence" after the British Mandate was terminated and under the guidance of the UN Palestine Commission:

• After having complete (to the extend possible) the "Steps Preparatory to Independence," as recommended by Resolution 181 (II); and under the power of self-determination.
• Royalty recognizes Royalty. In the case of Jordan, there was the matter of royalty. In the case of Israel, there was not.​

Most Respectfully,
R

Britain released its Mandate to the UN.

Israel did not comply with anything 181.

BTW, independent from what?

 

[Weatherman2020]

How do you "imprison" someone who surrounds you? Sorry but your analogy falls flat on it's face with even a cursory examination!

Who is surrounding whom?

Indeed, if you look at a map, you will discover that Israel is surrounded politically, geographically and ideologically by Islamist nations.

And none of them are stealing Israeli land.

And none of them are stealing Israeli land.

But not for the lack of trying.

 

[P F Tinmore]

How do you "imprison" someone who surrounds you? Sorry but your analogy falls flat on it's face with even a cursory examination!

Who is surrounding whom?

Indeed, if you look at a map, you will discover that Israel is surrounded politically, geographically and ideologically by Islamist nations.

And none of them are stealing Israeli land.

And none of them are stealing Israeli land.

But not for the lack of trying.
View attachment 153916

Nobody tried to steal Israeli land.

 

[Weatherman2020]

How do you "imprison" someone who surrounds you? Sorry but your analogy falls flat on it's face with even a cursory examination!

Who is surrounding whom?

Indeed, if you look at a map, you will discover that Israel is surrounded politically, geographically and ideologically by Islamist nations.

And none of them are stealing Israeli land.

And none of them are stealing Israeli land.

But not for the lack of trying.
View attachment 153916

Nobody tried to steal Israeli land.

Oh no, invasion was just to drop off some wine to say hello.

 

[RoccoR]

The Occupied Territories Are the Biggest Prison on Earth
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Let's puts a couple of these arguments together.

It doesn't. It was just a direct response to one of Rocco's long, irrelevant, off topic rants.

(COMMENT)

• All the answers applied directly to your question. ALL of them were applicable or pertinent. I even went to the trouble of separating the questions and tie the response to a question.

• Well, they were all on target for the question asked. They may not have been on topic for the thread.

Interesting point. Israel points to Resolution 181 to pretend to have legitimacy. What Israel ignores, however, is that Resolution 181 states that all Palestinians who normally live in the territory that becomes the Jewish state will become citizens of that state. This follows the rule of nationality and citizenship of state succession under international law.

This means that about 40% of the people in the West Bank, about 75% of the people in Gaza, and all of the Palestinians living elsewhere are legally Israeli citizens.

(COMMENT)

You cannot have it both ways. The Palestinians cannot reject Resolution 181(II), and then turn around and use it as if they were a party to the agreement or a participant in the Steps Preparatory to Independence. Not only did the Arab Palestinians reject the validity of the Resolution, they:

√ Lake Success, Feb. 6 – The Arab Higher Committee of Palestine sent to the United Nations a formal declaration of war in “self-defense” against any attempt to partition the Holy Land.​

In a letter to the Secretary-General signed by Isa Nakleh, the committee declared that the Arabs would fight “to the last man” against any force going to Palestine to partition that country,” and charged the United States with having exercised “flagrant interference and pressure” to force votes favoring partition. (Browne; N.Y. Times)​

The inhabitants of the region, later to become known as the Arab Palestinians, has some right to sovereignty over the territory; and they invoke the “right to self-determination” → including their demand for autonomy — or, in some cases, secession

Nobody has ever mentioned succession.

The Palestinian's right to sovereignty and self determination?

Sure, reaffirmed in subsequent UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

• The application of the word "succession" is relative to the claim that the Arab Palestinians have some treaty protected right ⇒ the "right or sequence of inheriting a position, title, etc" (or in this case some sovereign authority over territory).

• All cultures and people have the right to self-determination and sovereignty. That is not at all unique to the Arab Palestinians. Even the Israelis have such rights. But sovereignty implies the ultimate authority and I'm not sure that the Arab Palestinians have established that anywhere in the last millennium. The right to self-determination was attempted and filed. (What can I say?)

• The Arab Palestinians have the tendency to argue and advocate that self-determination confers the right to independence and statehood on every distinctive ethnic group (which they consider the Arab Palestinian a part). When you and I talk about sovereignty and self-determination, we might as well be speaking different languages. Arab Palestinians in the 21st Century still justify their demand for self-determination as a way to end years of repression and human rights violations by the minority ethnic Jews.

In any event, there are not very many nations (if any exist today) that will just up and allow an ethnic group the self-determination to separate and form their own sovereignty. The conflict is ideological and practical. The Arab Palestinians have little experience with the Western nations (generally but not entirely the Allied Powers) long history of sovereignty and statehood ⇒ and are thus not prepared to adhere to the Western insistence on the inviolability of existing borders. And the attempt to force an answer by turning to international legal standards on the right to self-determination does not resolve the problem, since the right has never been explicitly defined. You and I disagree on the Arab Palestinian claims of a self-determination movement ("right or sequence of inheriting a position, title, etc" by treaty), since no such right exists in international law. And it is unlikely that the major powers of the world are going to step-in and define such a right that might later be the cause of a break-up. While overwhelming success was achieved in the break-up of the Austria-Hungary and Ottoman Empires, in each such calculated partitioning process leaves wholes. Of course the Kurds were one, just as the Serbo-Croat conflicts were another. And then there was the Arab-Palestinians 'vs' the Jews.

I believe that the Arab-Palestinians have rights. I disapprove in the way that the Majority of Arabs attempted to crush the rights of the minority. This is an age-old problem.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[JoelT1]

How do you "imprison" someone who surrounds you? Sorry but your analogy falls flat on it's face with even a cursory examination!

Who is surrounding whom?

Indeed, if you look at a map, you will discover that Israel is surrounded politically, geographically and ideologically by Islamist nations.

And none of them are stealing Israeli land.

And none of them are stealing Israeli land.

But not for the lack of trying.
View attachment 153916

Nobody tried to steal Israeli land.

Jordan seized Judea and Samaria in the ‘48 War and renamed it West Bank (of Jordan River) Egypt seized Gaza. Noteworthy that neither country created a new state for Arabs

 

[JoelT1]

RE: The Occupied Territories Are the Biggest Prison on Earth
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

That is a fair question!

Article 1, Treaty between Great Britain and Jordan 1946
His Majesty The King recognises Trans-Jordan as a fully independent State and His Highness The Amir as the sovereign thereof.

Where is Britain's treaty with Israel?

(COMMENT)

Jordan was released by the Mandatory (Great Britain/UK) while the Mandate was still in effect.

Israel "Declared Independence" after the British Mandate was terminated and under the guidance of the UN Palestine Commission:

• After having complete (to the extend possible) the "Steps Preparatory to Independence," as recommended by Resolution 181 (II); and under the power of self-determination.
• Royalty recognizes Royalty. In the case of Jordan, there was the matter of royalty. In the case of Israel, there was not.​

Most Respectfully,
R

Britain released its Mandate to the UN.

Israel did not comply with anything 181.

BTW, independent from what?

Which countries were approved for their establishment by the UN? It’s not the role of the UN

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Occupied Territories Are the Biggest Prison on Earth
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

In each misdirection, there is something that fools people to follow it.

Britain released its Mandate to the UN.

Israel did not comply with anything 181.

BTW, independent from what?

(COMMENT)

→ Britain released its Mandate to the UN.

(RESPONSE) NO! Britain transferred its authority to the UNPC as assigned
by the Resolution 181(II). Including the termination letter and the legal
meaning of the “Termination of the Mandate.”​

→ Israel did not comply with anything 181

(RESPONSE) During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."​

→ BTW, independent from what?BTW, independent from what?

(RESPONSE) Just as all the other surrounding states. The Right of Sovereignty and Independence (from what is an invalid question).​

ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.​

WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948),​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[JoelT1]

RE: The Occupied Territories Are the Biggest Prison on Earth
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

In each misdirection, there is something that fools people to follow it.

Britain released its Mandate to the UN.

Israel did not comply with anything 181.

BTW, independent from what?

(COMMENT)

→ Britain released its Mandate to the UN.

(RESPONSE) NO! Britain transferred its authority to the UNPC as assigned
by the Resolution 181(II). Including the termination letter and the legal
meaning of the “Termination of the Mandate.”​

→ Israel did not comply with anything 181

(RESPONSE) During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."​

→ BTW, independent from what?BTW, independent from what?

(RESPONSE) Just as all the other surrounding states. The Right of Sovereignty and Independence (from what is an invalid question).​

ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.​

WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948),​

Most Respectfully,
R

The state of Israel has existed for almost three quarters of a century; Ancient Israel dates back over 3000 years. Why waste your oxygen on someone clearly mentally unhealthy?