The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Mushroom]

The Japanese were seeking peace negotiations from Potsdam onward. The sticking point in the negotiations was the status of the Emperor. The Japanese felt that if he was tried as a war criminal, their society would fall apart.

Common misbelief, but wrong.

Japan was not seeking peace, they were not interested in any kind of surrender. What they wanted as an armistace.

In other words, what ended WWI. Both sides stop fighting, and return to their positions prior to December 1941. No war crime trials, no occupation, basically pretend that the previous 4 years never happened. In fact, all the islands recently captured with death and blood from the Japanese would be returned to them. Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Saipan, Tarawa, Guadalcanal, all of them. The only one they were willing to release was Chosin (Korea), as they knew they would never be able to get the Soviets to agree to leave, and many were thinking that territory was more trouble than it was worth.

Status quo ante bellum.

There was absolutely no way that the Allies would have ever agreed to that. That was how WWI ended, and they were not about to allow that to happen ever again.

An armistice is not "Peace", it is simply a halt to the fighting. Korea is not at peace, it is a decades long armistice. WWI only ended with an armistice because half of the nations involved broke down into revolution and anarchy so quite literally there was nobody left to really organize a peace with in the first place. Italy, Germany, Russia, all were gone or on the way out.

Oh, the Allies knew full well that without a firm and binding peace treaty, Japan would not have learned it's lesson and like Germany would rise again, more beligerant and agressive than it had been before.

 

[Mushroom]

Except that the bombs didn't end the war. The entry of the USSR into the Pacific War did.

Not really. The entry of the Soviets was more like hyenas rushing in to tear the haunch off of a lion kill. The Japanese knew that at most the Soviets would gobble up their holdings in Asia, and a few outlying islands, but that was it. And even taking over the Kuril islands taxed their capabilities to the extreme.

No, Japan could survive without Manchuko and Chosin, that actually meant little to them. And one of the reasons they rushed to end the war was that they did not want more of their soldiers killed. Soldiers that they had already been moving from the mainland back to Japan as fast as they could.

They were already considering the mainland lost by that time. Their forces were largely abandoning China and Manchuko, because it was believed they were needed at home. But the shock of finding out that there was not just 1 but 2 bombs, and that they would be dropped once a week on a major city was enough to convince exactly half of the highest level of leadership that the war was over.

And there was even more involved. One of the POWs they had recently captured Lieutenant Marcus McDilda had been asked about this new bomb, and under torture he said the US had "hundreds of them", and would drop them more and more if the Japanese did not surrender.

Also interesting to note that of the Imperial Council, it was primarily the military members who were advocating surrender. It was the civilian leadership part that was most adamant about fighting on. Against any opposition, until everybody on Japan was dead if that was needed.

 

[Unkotare]

A great many more American servicemen would not have died if the war had ended sooner, as it might have if the scumbag fdr didn't want otherwise.

 

[Unkotare]

The Japanese were seeking peace negotiations from Potsdam onward. The sticking point in the negotiations was the status of the Emperor. The Japanese felt that if he was tried as a war criminal, their society would fall apart.

Common misbelief, but wrong.

Japan was not seeking peace, they were not interested in any kind of surrender. ...

There was absolutely no way that the Allies would have ever agreed to that. ....

The terms of surrender being floated - terms that MacArthur informed fdr about in a 40 page letter before that old son of a bitch left for Yalta - outlined terms for surrender that turned out to be exactly the same terms that truman ultimately accepted after incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians. This was well before Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Just think how many American servicemen might not have had to die in those terrible battles.

 

[Mushroom]

The terms of surrender being floated - terms that MacArthur informed fdr about in a 40 page letter before that old son of a bitch left for Yalta - outlined terms for surrender that turned out to be exactly the same terms that truman ultimately accepted after incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians. This was well before Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Just think how many American servicemen might not have had to die in those terrible battles.

But that was not what Japan was trying to propose.

They had been trying to get a nation to approach the US for them for over a year, trying to arrange an armistice. Exactly in the terms I already listed. The Swiss refused to mediate, and the Soviet Ambassador pretty much laughed at him and said he would pass it up to Stalin.

Both nations rejected the attempt by Japan, because both knew that the other party (the Allied Powers) would never accept them. Just as they rejected Potsdam weeks before the first bomb was dropped.

The terms that Mac suggested were nothing like what Japan accepted. The only thing really similar is that the Emperor would remain in office and not be tried. But every single attempt by Japan prior had outright rejected occupation, disarmament, war crime trials, and was adamant on the return of all captured territory back to Japan.

What Japan wanted was a return to November 1941. That was absolutely nothing like what Mac suggested.

But please, tell us more about these Japanese terms that accepted disarmament, occupation, and war crime trials. You are the one that made the claim that is what Japan would have accepted prior to the bombs, now prove it. Because the Imperial Privy Council meetings say otherwise.

 

[Unkotare]

Read the whole thread, lazy ass.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The Japanese were seeking peace negotiations from Potsdam onward. The sticking point in the negotiations was the status of the Emperor. The Japanese felt that if he was tried as a war criminal, their society would fall apart.

Common misbelief, but wrong.

Japan was not seeking peace, they were not interested in any kind of surrender. ...

There was absolutely no way that the Allies would have ever agreed to that. ....

The terms of surrender being floated - terms that MacArthur informed fdr about in a 40 page letter before that old son of a bitch left for Yalta - outlined terms for surrender that turned out to be exactly the same terms that truman ultimately accepted after incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians. This was well before Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Just think how many American servicemen might not have had to die in those terrible battles.

And yet you can not LINK to a single shred of evidence that the Japanese offered that to Mac Arthur. I can link to every intercept and every procedural vote by the Japanese Government. And all they offered was a ceasefire.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Read the whole thread, lazy ass.

You have NEVER once linked to any document saying that. NOT once. You have linked to historians after the fact touting the peace members of the Privy council trying to surrender and claiming this meant the whole Government would.

 

[Mushroom]

Read the whole thread, lazy ass.

"Lazy ass". Very informed rebuttal.

I really have no reason or interest in reading 87 pages of people mostly participating in mental masturbation. To put it simply, anybody believing that Japan was about to surrender is to put it in technical terms "a complete and utter dumbass".

Now do not get me wrong, I have great respect for the nation and people of Japan. I lived there myself for over a year, and have been studying the Pacific War for over 35 years. But the people living in Japan and the culture of today is nothing like that of 75 years ago.

Hence, why I look at things like the Taisei Yokusankai and the Privy Council itself. And please, feel free to provide a single reference where I am wrong. Show me where the Privy Council had said before 9 August they were willing to surrender.

Hell, you can not even provide any proof of that on 10 August, because that is when they finally realized they were so deadlocked that for the first time ever the final decision was passed to Emperor Showa himself. Instead, you call me "lazy". No, I am not lazy. I simply have no patience to entertain people who twist and distort reality to serve their own beliefs.

It is amazing how most who believe that false myth that Japan was about to surrender almost completely fail to recognize the importance of such words as Shinto, Bushido, Yamato, and what they said about the early Shows period.

 

[Mushroom]

You have NEVER once linked to any document saying that. NOT once. You have linked to historians after the fact touting the peace members of the Privy council trying to surrender and claiming this meant the whole Government would.

Gunny, most have absolutely no idea how the top levels of government of Japan even worked.

They think of the Emperor as some kind of Queen Victoria, who would lop off the head with anybody that did not agree. In reality, the Emperor had about as much power as the Vice President does in the Senate. He mostly sits and does and says nothing. The only time the VP is ever allowed to actually do anything is in the rare event that the Senate is deadlocked. Then and only then can he (or she) actually do something, and that is to break the tie.

That is what the Emperor was in his own Privy Council. He literally sat on the other side of a screen, completely out of sight of the actual officials holding the meeting. Saying nothing. And only in the event that they went to him and announced they were deadlocked could they then ask for his input.

And this happened exactly 1 time, ever. In the early morning of 10 August 1945.

I however am constantly dumbfounded at the extreme ignorance of people, who feel like they have to interject their own personal beliefs into something in which they actually know very little about. They think of the Japanese and think of a country that makes electronics and cars (and really good cameras before they went digital). I see one of the most xenophobic nations on earth, but also one with some of the most formidable warriors in the history of the planet.

And woe onto any nation that would ever earn their wrath in the future. I think if China was ever foolish enough to actually attack Japan, they would find their head spinning in how they would react. The WWII Peace Treaty, Japan would quickly tear it up (and the US and other nations would likely ignore their doing so), and you would see a nation mobilize so quickly for war it would shock almost anybody.

It must be remembered, one of their most popular cartoons for decades (they keep bringing it back) literally has Japan as the last nation holding out after an overwhelming alien force takes over the Earth. Then raising the WWII Battleship Yamato and using it to drive the aliens off of the planet.

Only "Squirrel and Hedgehog" come closer to pure martial force fed to children as a form of entertainment than the Japanese do regularly. Familiar of Zero, Girls und Panzer, even today their popular culture is crammed full of tales of their military ferocity.

And yea, that is really a series, Girls und Panzer ("Girls and Tanks"). In the future, where girls are sent to learn and study on huge "Academy Ships", and the main intermural competition between schools is having the girls from one school fight the girls of other schools in WWII era tanks. It is seen as a "light comedy".

Could you imagine that in the US? If the network even allowed it, the uproar would get it stopped before even the first episode aired.

"Stay tuned, next week we will have Scooby and the rest of the Mysteries Inc. gang in ME-262s squaring off against Josie and the Pussycats in P-51 Mustangs!"

 

[Mushroom]

They think of the Emperor as some kind of Queen Victoria, who would lop off the head with anybody that did not agree. In reality, the Emperor had about as much power as the Vice President does in the Senate. He mostly sits and does and says nothing. The only time the VP is ever allowed to actually do anything is in the rare event that the Senate is deadlocked. Then and only then can he (or she) actually do something, and that is to break the tie.

And to give an idea how often this has happened, it is actually very rare.

Our current VP is number 7 on the list of VPs that have voted in the senate, at 13 (6 of which just to forward various nominees for offices). The largest of any number in modern history. The next closest one in number is the VP under Martin van Buren (14 in total, 1837-1841). All the rest with more were between 1789 and 1873. 12 Vice Presidents spent their entire time in the Senate and never voted a single time.

 

[Unkotare]

Read the whole thread, lazy ass.

"Lazy ass". Very informed rebuttal.

I really have no reason or interest in reading 87 pages ......

If you're too lazy to read the significant amount of evidence posted on this thread before shooting your mouth off on the same thread, why should your prejudice be given any consideration?

How about just reading the document I attached on this page?

 

[Unkotare]

...the importance of such words as Shinto, Bushido, Yamato, and what they said about the early Shows [sic] period.

People who read a book jacket and think they have become experts...

People who reference cartoons as "proof" of some half-assed, superficial "analysis" of culture or history...

People who can't be bothered to correctly spell the terms they are trying to use. How about "Showa," professor?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

...the importance of such words as Shinto, Bushido, Yamato, and what they said about the early Shows [sic] period.

People who read a book jacket and think they have become experts...

People who reference cartoons as "proof" of some half-assed, superficial "analysis" of culture or history...

People who can't be bothered to correctly spell the terms they are trying to use. How about "Showa," professor?

Again you have posted NO LINK to actual documents from either Mac Arthur or the Japanese Government. You cite Historians that make the claim and no where in their books is a shred of evidence to support the claim. Yes there was a peace group in the Government but it was out voted and had no authority to act. EVERY single communique to their Embassy said the same thing, ask for a ceasefire return to 41 start lines no occupation no surrender no concessions in China. Even after the Atomic Bomb they REFUSED to surrender. And when the Emperor did surrender the Army staged a COUP to stop it.

 

[JoeB131]

Not really. The entry of the Soviets was more like hyenas rushing in to tear the haunch off of a lion kill. The Japanese knew that at most the Soviets would gobble up their holdings in Asia, and a few outlying islands, but that was it. And even taking over the Kuril islands taxed their capabilities to the extreme.

Okay, kind of agreed with your first two posts, but this one you've gone off the rails. No, the entry of the USSR was a game changer because they weren't ready for it. In Hokkaido, they only had two reserve divisions for the entire island. The Russians had hundreds of divisions, battle hardened from fighting the Germans, and getting a few of them to Hokkaido wouldn't have been that big of a problem. Japan had no naval assets left (nearly all their aircraft carriers and battleships having been sunk.)

The concept that Japan herself might be partitioned like Germany was, with Japanese women getting the kind of treatment that German women had been subjected to in the Soviet Zone, was more horrifying to the very racist Japanese than merely losing Manchuria. Fuck you, PuYI, you are on your own, buddy!

No, Japan could survive without Manchuko and Chosin, that actually meant little to them. And one of the reasons they rushed to end the war was that they did not want more of their soldiers killed. Soldiers that they had already been moving from the mainland back to Japan as fast as they could.

I think that was exactly my point. They realized they couldn't hold those territories, but again- now they were fighting a two front war. Most of those returned troops were being deployed in Honshu and Kyushu. Everyone assumed that the invastion of Kyushu wouldn't happen until November, and the followup invasion of Honshu wasn't going to happen until the following March.

With the USSR in it, if the Japanese hadn't surrendered, they would have had plenty of time to not only take over Japan's holdings in Asia, but launch an invasion of Hokkaido as well. Heck, they might even let the Chinese occupy a chunk of Japan just to make they feel better. (Why not, they let France occupy a chunk of Germany?)

 

[Unkotare]

...

And yea, that is really a series, Girls und Panzer ("Girls and Tanks"). In the future, where girls are sent to learn and study on huge "Academy Ships", and the main intermural competition between schools is having the girls from one school fight the girls of other schools in WWII era tanks. It is seen as a "light comedy".

Could you imagine that in the US? If the network even allowed it, the uproar would get it stopped before even the first episode aired.
...

You mean the cartoon that is available on netflix, hulu, itunes, and amazon prime in the US? The cartoon that first aired on American TV in 2012? "Could you imagine that"? Um, yes.

 

[Unkotare]

... I see one of the most xenophobic nations on earth, ....

...

One of the most popular TV shows in Japan right now follows B-list celebrities as they travel the world to find and interview Japanese people who are now living in various nations in every corner of the earth. Another popular show follows the progress of a well-known Japanese celebrity living in Argentina to learn Spanish and about the culture there. Another show follows the same premise but in France. A very popular childrens' TV program is all about teaching kids about cultures, languages and places all around the world.

You can go almost anywhere in Japan and find signs, maps, and various forms of assistance in English and other languages to help out foreign visitors.

So xenophobic...

 

[JoeB131]

One of the most popular TV shows in Japan right now follows B-list celebrities as they travel the world to find and interview Japanese people who are now living in various nations in every corner of the earth. Another popular show follows the progress of a well-known Japanese celebrity living in Argentina to learn Spanish and about the culture there. Another show follows the same premise but in France. A very popular childrens' TV program is all about teaching kids about cultures, languages and places all around the world.

You can go almost anywhere in Japan and find signs, maps, and various forms of assistance in English and other languages to help out foreign visitors.

So xenophobic...

Um, yeah, they still are. The popularity of shows really doesn't mean a whole lot.

Why is racism so big in Japan?

It’s not just some Japanese shops that try to bar foreigners – schools and landlords can be equally unwelcoming. So maybe it’s not surprising a government adviser has called for apartheid, South Africa style.

www.scmp.com

That seeming lack of interest doesn’t surprise Debito Arudou, a human-rights activist who was born David Schofill in California and became a naturalised Japanese citizen in 2000. Discrimination is a sad fact of life in Japan, according to Arudou, and if anything, it is becoming more frequent – and more blatant.

For Arudou, the most significant nail in the coffin of internationalisation was hammered in by Shintaro Ishihara, soon after he was elected governor of Tokyo in 1999. In a speech to members of Japan’s Self-Defence Forces on April 9, 2000, Ishihara said “atrocious crimes” had been repeatedly committed by illegal residents that he referred to as sangokujin, a derogatory term that literally means third-country nationals. Ishihara said if a natural disaster struck Tokyo, foreigners would cause civil disorder.

Now, admitably, they aren't going on Genocidal Rampages against Asia like they did in the 1940's, but that's like saying America has solved it's racism problem because we haven't lynched anyone in years.

 

[Mushroom]

Okay, kind of agreed with your first two posts, but this one you've gone off the rails. No, the entry of the USSR was a game changer because they weren't ready for it. In Hokkaido, they only had two reserve divisions for the entire island. The Russians had hundreds of divisions, battle hardened from fighting the Germans, and getting a few of them to Hokkaido wouldn't have been that big of a problem. Japan had no naval assets left (nearly all their aircraft carriers and battleships having been sunk.)

And here we go back to one of the least liked attributes of Japan of the era. Xenophobia and belief in their Racial Superiority.

Hokkaido was kinda like Okinawa and Korea, in that they were both added in the mid 1800's to the Empire, and at that point were still not really seen as "Japanese". These had been completely different countries prior to that, and to most of Japan it was just another conquered territory. And one that they had absolutely no problem offering up if needed, so long as it keeps the Main Island safe.

You know, kinda like Okinawa where they had their own military kill civilians rather than let them surrender. Or Saipan, where they had no problem convincing a huge percentage of the population to kill themselves and their children. Even including famously jumping off of cliffs.

You are making a common mistake, and believing that Japan of today (including those islands) is the Japan of the era. Heck, Japan today is not even close to how it was then. Even when I was first on Okinawa in the 1980s, I was told very clearly to not refer to the older generation as "Japanese". A great many of those who lived through the WWII era hated the Japanese. They were Okinawans, and many got upset if you did not recognize that. Now today, that is almost entirely gone as that generation has largely died off. And Okinawa has seen a great deal of both migration from the main island, as well as becoming essentially their version of Hawaii.

Only 2 Divisions on Hokkaido? Of course, who cares about them, they were barely Japanese anyways. Let the civilians suck up as many bullets as they can, we need the forces on the home island!

The concept that Japan herself might be partitioned like Germany was, with Japanese women getting the kind of treatment that German women had been subjected to in the Soviet Zone, was more horrifying to the very racist Japanese than merely losing Manchuria. Fuck you, PuYI, you are on your own, buddy!

You have to remember, the entire "GEACPS" was actually not all that different from what Germany had been doing. As the "Asian Master Race", they would jump in and kick out all those "White Foreigners", and "liberate" those nations. Which of course being little but "stupid wogs" would worship the Japanese as their liberators, and recognize their superiority and follow whatever they say.

Naturally.

Myself, I have long wondered if there was some kind of message in their sending Puyi to Manchuria. For those that do not know, Puyi is also known as "The Last Emperor" of China. And he was the last member of the Qing Dynasty.

A Dynasty that is also often thought of by another name, the Manchu Dynasty. Somebody in their Foreign Office thinking "Hey, this guy is an Emperor and descended from Khans in Manchuria. Why not send him to be their new Emperor under our control?"

But no, to Japan the entire rest of their Empire was disposable, so long as the home island remained. And if you change history so there are no Atomic Bombs at all, then all you have is Japan being utterly destroyed by a combined Allied onslaught. Something they were more than happy to have, as they were already teaching children to attack the invaders with spears for goodness sakes.

I think that was exactly my point. They realized they couldn't hold those territories, but again- now they were fighting a two front war. Most of those returned troops were being deployed in Honshu and Kyushu. Everyone assumed that the invastion of Kyushu wouldn't happen until November, and the followup invasion of Honshu wasn't going to happen until the following March.

They already had been! You had 3 main theaters already, and they were being badly beaten in all of them. They had lost in the Pacific, South Pacific, and were being rolled back all over Mainland Asia. So opening yet another front by that point was about as important as attacking Germany from Greece while the Soviets were storming in from the East, and the rest of the Allies from the West.

Two front war, they were already being beaten in 3 fronts (4 if you include their failed attempt in Alaska).

With the USSR in it, if the Japanese hadn't surrendered, they would have had plenty of time to not only take over Japan's holdings in Asia, but launch an invasion of Hokkaido as well. Heck, they might even let the Chinese occupy a chunk of Japan just to make they feel better. (Why not, they let France occupy a chunk of Germany?)

No, that would never have happened. To start with, China was already involved in it's own Civil War. And they had absolutely no interest in doing any kind of occupation anywhere.

With the exception of Taipei, which Japan had annexed from China in 1895. The Republic of China did occupy that from 1945 until 1952, when the island was returned in one of the strangest treaties I have seen when Japan finally formally returned Formosa (Taiwan, Taipei) to Chinese control. Other than reclaiming this lost territory, the Chinese had absolutely no interest in participating in any "Chinese Occupation" of Japan.

If there is one thing that would have destroyed Japan and possibly have led to another war, it might have been an occupation like had been done in Germany. Japan had been a homogenous nation and culture for well over a thousand years, with a single dynasty that literally goes back to biblical times.

Germany on the other hand was a fairly modern hodgepodge that had been kludged together from 39 separate states after the fall of Napoleon. And not unlike Antebellum United States, they thought of themselves by their former names almost as much as they recognized themselves as "German". They were Prussians, Bavarians, Hanoverians, the list goes on and on. So finding them split up yet again under another occupation was nothing new to them.

And we saw what happens when such a conglomeration nation falls apart, just look no farther than Yugoslavia.

In Japan, that would never have happened. Short of turning over their other islands to various nations and leaving the mainland to the US (or at most a US-UK alliance).

Thankfully, MacArthur knew and understood that, and was one of the strongest to fight for a single occupying power. Trying to treat Japan as Germany with multiple occupation zones would have been a disaster. What was done was their former "Mainland Empire" was dissolved, and the Soviets got North Korea to watch over. Since technically Manchuko was a different country, it's occupation was treated as such, not as a part of Japan.

And the occupation of the Japanese islands in the last days? In reality, this was the reverse, and the Soviets were trying to once again grab what they could before the war ended. Earlier at the Yalta Conference, the Soviets had been "invited" to join the war within 3 months of the Surrender of Germany. And they were offered the Northernmost islands in exchange for allowing the US to base bombers in the Soviet Union.

And the Soviets were sure that once the Atom Bombs started dropping that Japan would not remain in the fight for long. So it was jump and grab them as quickly as possible after the first bomb dropped, or forever loose them as the US would not allow them to be separated off after a surrender.

So that is exactly what they did.

 

[jwoodie]

Strange how the Japs surrendered very shortly after we set them on fire

Strange how the Japs did not surrender after we set Tokyo on fire (and killed 100,000).