The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Mushroom]

One of the most popular TV shows in Japan right now follows B-list celebrities as they travel the world to find and interview Japanese people who are now living in various nations in every corner of the earth. Another popular show follows the progress of a well-known Japanese celebrity living in Argentina to learn Spanish and about the culture there. Another show follows the same premise but in France. A very popular childrens' TV program is all about teaching kids about cultures, languages and places all around the world.

You can go almost anywhere in Japan and find signs, maps, and various forms of assistance in English and other languages to help out foreign visitors.

So xenophobic...

Japan has long had a fascination with American culture. Baseball had become their national sport even before WWII. And yes, I am well aware of their use of English in advertising. "I Feel Coke" is still one of my favorite advertising slogans, and the weird quirky drink called "Pocari Sweat".

No, I am not talking about culture, but about the people. Bloodlines.

Japan is one of the most homogenous nations on the planet even today, with the total immigrant population at less than 2%. And most of those are repatriated Japanese from the exodus of the 1800s.

To give an idea, in 2018 they had over 10,000 applications for asylum. They accepted 42. And that is a record number, normally the number granted was around 20. And that statistic ended in 2018, when Japan closed the loophole in their law which allowed such asylum immigration, and for 2019 and so far in 2020 the number granted is 0 and 0.

And remember, this is also a nation that barely recognizes even those who are full blooded Japanese born in other nations. They even have specific terms for the 4th generation Japanese born overseas. Many know the term Nisei, it literally translates to somebody born of Japanese born parents overseas (which are also no longer Japanese themselves but Issei). Then you have Sansei, Yonsei, Gosei, at which point the individual is not even considered Japanese at all.

Now realize I am not a "birther", I thought the entire thing was moronic. But if our last President was Japanese, he would not be recognized as a Japanese citizen, he would be Nisei. A foreigner who happened to have at least one Japanese parent. She left the country, and went to another one and married a guy from there. At that point pretty much all Japanese connections would have been severed.

I served with a Sansei Officer, who's Nisei father married his soon to become Issei mother. He grew up speaking both English and Japanese, and was looking forward to being stationed in Japan. And was saddened on how nobody there would accept him. He was only a single generation removed, but they saw him as an "American", and he gave up trying to associate with the locals after a month or so.

Oh, they will readily adopt areas of culture. But actual outsiders? Nope, to be tolerated and that is about it.

And the signs, it is less "English" as it is simply "Romanized" spellings of Japanese words. That way anybody can find say Tokyo, Sapporo, or Fuji, no matter if they are from the US, France, Germany, or Italy. I remember seeing a sign for "Kaigan Motobu" at one of my favorite dive spots. And as a diver, one of the words I did learn was Kaigan, their word for "Beach".

If it was really in English, it would have said "Motobu Beach", not "Kaigan Motobu". That is Romanization for the letters, not Anglicization by making the sign in English.

 

[Mushroom]

Strange how the Japs did not surrender after we set Tokyo on fire (and killed 100,000).

Hell, a lot of people dying in a fire in most of Japan was no big deal. In 1923 well over 100,000 fied in Tokyo after a combination of earthquake, tsunami, and fire leveled the city.

But those were coordinated attacks requiring huge numbers of aircraft. It is something else altogether to learn that your enemy can do that level of destruction with a single bomb from a single airplane. That is a level of horror that stunned Japan when they learned that not only was it true it was done by a single bomb, it was repeatable and not some kind of weird lucky attack.

And they had what they thought was "excellent intelligence" that the US had 100 more bombs like that ready to go.

There is a reason why I call nuclear weapons "Political Terror Weapons". They have almost no real military use, they are designed entirely to crush the will of the opponent politically through threat of use rather than actual use. Japan had absolutely no problem sending off millions of their own citizens with sticks and knives to fight off battle hardened soldiers. And they knew they would take a lot of the Gaigin out with them.

But seeing hundreds of thousands killed with absolutely nothing to show for it? That is futility. Like the classic cartoon where the mouse flips the finger to the eagle as it stoops on it. Futile, pointless, an exercise in futility. They would not even get a chance to "Die for the defense of the Emperor", they would just... die.

Half of the Privy Council recognized that, and the other half did not and still wanted to fight on.

 

[jwoodie]

Half of the Privy Council recognized that, and the other half did not and still wanted to fight on.

Exactly. Even after we dropped the bombs, the Japs wouldn't agree to an unconditional surrender. Do you feel the same guilt over bombing Germany? Was the fire bombing of Hamburg and Dresden any less horrific because it was accomplished with thousands of airplanes instead of just two?

 

[Unkotare]

... I remember seeing a sign for "Kaigan Motobu" at one of my favorite dive spots. And as a diver, one of the words I did learn was Kaigan, their word for "Beach".

If it was really in English, it would have said "Motobu Beach", not "Kaigan Motobu". That is Romanization for the letters, not Anglicization by making the sign in English.

You mean something like this?

 

[Unkotare]

...

No, I am not talking about culture, but about the people. ...

...

Culture is the reproduced ways and means of the lived experiences of a given people at a given time, so you are talking about both.

 

[Unkotare]

...

And the signs, it is less "English" as it is simply "Romanized" spellings of Japanese words. That way anybody can find say Tokyo, Sapporo, or Fuji, no matter if they are from the US, France, Germany, or Italy. ...

And that strikes you as "xenophobic"?

 

[Unkotare]

...

Oh, they will readily adopt areas of culture. But actual outsiders? Nope, to be tolerated and that is about it.

...

Sounds like you spent a year on a military base and formed generalizations based on a view from the distant outside. Even at that, it sounds like generalizations from some time in the 1980s.

 

[Unkotare]

One of the most popular TV shows in Japan right now follows B-list celebrities as they travel the world to find and interview Japanese people who are now living in various nations in every corner of the earth. Another popular show follows the progress of a well-known Japanese celebrity living in Argentina to learn Spanish and about the culture there. Another show follows the same premise but in France. A very popular childrens' TV program is all about teaching kids about cultures, languages and places all around the world.

You can go almost anywhere in Japan and find signs, maps, and various forms of assistance in English and other languages to help out foreign visitors.

So xenophobic...

...

Japan is one of the most homogenous [sic] nations on the planet even today, with the total immigrant population at less than 2%. ...

Perhaps you are unaware that laws have been passed in recent years (and recent months) allowing for increased levels of immigration.

 

[JoeB131]

You are making a common mistake, and believing that Japan of today (including those islands) is the Japan of the era. Heck, Japan today is not even close to how it was then. Even when I was first on Okinawa in the 1980s, I was told very clearly to not refer to the older generation as "Japanese". A great many of those who lived through the WWII era hated the Japanese. They were Okinawans, and many got upset if you did not recognize that. Now today, that is almost entirely gone as that generation has largely died off. And Okinawa has seen a great deal of both migration from the main island, as well as becoming essentially their version of Hawaii.

Only 2 Divisions on Hokkaido? Of course, who cares about them, they were barely Japanese anyways. Let the civilians suck up as many bullets as they can, we need the forces on the home island!

I think you are missing my entire point, not that Hokaido was considered "not Japanese", but that the Japanese thought they had a treaty with Russia, thought that they could maybe even get Stalin to broker a peace with the Allies (as Russia was not at war with Japan after their non-aggression pact of 1941).

Instead, they found out that not only were the Russians in the war, but they had a whole new front to fight that they weren't ready to fight on. If the Russians took Hokkaido, it was only a matter of time to they got to Honshu, maybe they'd get to Tokyo before the Allies did.

My point remains. The entry of the USSR into the Pacific War was a bigger factor in their surrender than the bombs were.

If there is one thing that would have destroyed Japan and possibly have led to another war, it might have been an occupation like had been done in Germany. Japan had been a homogenous nation and culture for well over a thousand years, with a single dynasty that literally goes back to biblical times.

Do you really think that anyone was that concerned about destroying Japan. Now, here's the thing. US propaganda divided Germans into "Good Germans" and "Nazis". Of course, a lot of Germans were "Good people" just waiting for the allies to liberate them. The Japanese, on the other hand, were portrayed as sub-human monsters. Part of that was racism, part of that was that Americans were geniunely pissed off by Pearl Harbor, Bataan, etc.

And the occupation of the Japanese islands in the last days? In reality, this was the reverse, and the Soviets were trying to once again grab what they could before the war ended. Earlier at the Yalta Conference, the Soviets had been "invited" to join the war within 3 months of the Surrender of Germany. And they were offered the Northernmost islands in exchange for allowing the US to base bombers in the Soviet Union.

Um, okay, why worry about a bunch of little Islands when you can have Eastern Europe. The point was, it took about three months between VE Day to move enough units from Europe to Asia to make a difference. (Just like the 1941 treaty freed up Zhukov and a lot of divisions to head west.)

 

[Mushroom]

Exactly. Even after we dropped the bombs, the Japs wouldn't agree to an unconditional surrender. Do you feel the same guilt over bombing Germany? Was the fire bombing of Hamburg and Dresden any less horrific because it was accomplished with thousands of airplanes instead of just two?

Myself? Not a single bit. This was as the saying goes "Total War". Germany and Japan started the war of aggression and expansion, and their actions during that war give sme absolutely no reason to feel sympathy for them.

But to an enemy, it raises the level of futility. If they could do that much with just one bomb, imagine a fleet the size of that used against Dresden or Tokyo where all of them had bombs like that.

You mean something like this?
View attachment 324975

Oh, Okuma Beach. Been there many times.

You are aware are you not that that beach is located on an American Military Installation, are you not? That is run by the MWR of Kadena Air Force Base, so that sign would never really be seen by the Japanese. It was purely put up by the Americans, for the Americans.

Wow, what a glorious failure that is. And guess what, you will find similar signs on the beach I dived at a lot, Orawan Beach. That was located on Camp Schwab - Camp Henoko. In order to try to prove me wrong, you actually go and find a sign that is actually located on and inside of a US military installation.

 

[Mushroom]

Sounds like you spent a year on a military base and formed generalizations based on a view from the distant outside. Even at that, it sounds like generalizations from some time in the 1980s.

Yet more failures because you are projecting.

I was actually unusual during my time there, I spent as much time away from the "Military Districts" as I could. I learned how to navigate the local bus system, and spent most of my time not diving far away from the bases. And a surprising amount of people there know English, as AFRTS has radio and TV stations that are popular with the Japanese as well as Americans there.

When I needed diving gear for example, I went to Nago, where after showing a note written by a translator I knew I was shown to a second hand store that sold me what I wanted for a great price. In fact, I made a nice profit in buying all they had, and selling it to a profit to others that rarely left the base to so go the local bars.

I already said it many times, but I was a diver. Which means I spent a lot of weekends out in the community, visiting popular dive locations on the island. Often with 100 Japanese to every 1 American. And being a rabid history buff, I even helped organize a tour of the island by none other than Tomiko Higa.

But nice to see that once again, you are not actually trying to debate me on the facts, but somehow try to insult me or put me down, as if that would make what I say any less correct. You never do seem to debate based on the subject, but attack any that does not agree with you and you can not actually give a good response.

I can actually give you directions to a very good local restaurant if you are ever in Okinawa City. However, they are a bit of a walk if you do not have a car. About 3 miles from Gate 2 of Kadena, and they only accept Yen and not Dollars. But they are still there, owned by the daughter of the owner that I knew when I was there. They make what is unquestionably the finest shrimp fried rice I have ever had in my life.

And I know the bowling alley I frequented is still there, as is the Pachinko Parlor next door. But the skating rink I spent a great many weekends at (almost always the only American on the floor) is long gone, it is a strip mall now.

Now, are you going to try and actually discuss the topic, or are you going to try and insult me? This is why I keep leaving this forum, I get sick of how you and so many others never really actually discuss the topic. You pontificate on your own beliefs, and attempt to dismiss-belittle-insult anybody that you do not agree with.

And I see in the last year or so things here have not changed a single bit. Can not defend your claims, so attack the messenger. I was tired of that crap from you a year ago, and 2 years ago, and 5 years ago. And I see in all that time the person who actually uses a name about shit and piss is still at it.

You at least have not changed. And true to your name you just shit and piss everywhere, offering nothing of real substance.

And for others, that is literally what "Unkotare" is. It is a sexual fetish involving bodily waste, generally "dripping" off of the female performer. Not unlike a more well known fetish that literally translate as "to splash heavily". I have long considered him nothing but a troll, and I see some things never change.

 

[Unkotare]

Exactly. Even after we dropped the bombs, the Japs wouldn't agree to an unconditional surrender. Do you feel the same guilt over bombing Germany? Was the fire bombing of Hamburg and Dresden any less horrific because it was accomplished with thousands of airplanes instead of just two?

Myself? Not a single bit. This was as the saying goes "Total War". Germany and Japan started the war of aggression and expansion, and their actions during that war give sme absolutely no reason to feel sympathy for them.

But to an enemy, it raises the level of futility. If they could do that much with just one bomb, imagine a fleet the size of that used against Dresden or Tokyo where all of them had bombs like that.

You mean something like this?
View attachment 324975

Oh, Okuma Beach. Been there many times.

You are aware are you not that that beach is located on an American Military Installation, are you not? That is run by the MWR of Kadena Air Force Base....

Partly. It is also a private resort owned by JAL. Again, you are out of date, Michael J Fox.

 

[Unkotare]

Sounds like you spent a year on a military base and formed generalizations based on a view from the distant outside. Even at that, it sounds like generalizations from some time in the 1980s.

Yet more failures because you are projecting.

I was actually unusual during my time there, I spent as much time away from the "Military Districts" as I could. ...

...said everyone who ever served on a military base but wants to sound like William Adams.

 

[Unkotare]

...

And the signs, it is less "English" as it is simply "Romanized" spellings of Japanese words. That way anybody can find say Tokyo, Sapporo, or Fuji, no matter if they are from the US, France, Germany, or Italy. ...

And that strikes you as "xenophobic"?

For someone who whines about addressing the topic, you seem to avoid direct questions when it suits you.

 

[P@triot]

The Japanese were seeking peace negotiations from Potsdam onward.

Common misbelief, but wrong.

It's not a "misbelief". It's called propaganda. The left lives for it and Joey loves to spread it. Even he doesn't believe it.

 

[P@triot]

Sounds like you spent a year on a military base and formed generalizations based on a view from the distant outside.

Sounds like you spent a lifetime as an anti-American, pacifist asshole and formed uneducated opinions based on the propaganda spoon-fed to you.

 

[P@triot]

And that strikes you as "xenophobic"?

For someone who whines about addressing the topic, you seem to avoid direct questions when it suits you.

The irony here is so sweet, one could instantly become a diabetic from reading it. Sensei Snowflake posed that question to himself. This is what is known as "Freudian Slip".

 

[Unkotare]

Sounds like you spent a year on a military base and formed generalizations based on a view from the distant outside.

Sounds like you spent a lifetime as an anti-American, pacifist ...and formed uneducated opinions based on the propaganda spoon-fed to you.

Wrong on all counts, of course.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Sounds like you spent a year on a military base and formed generalizations based on a view from the distant outside.

Sounds like you spent a lifetime as an anti-American, pacifist ...and formed uneducated opinions based on the propaganda spoon-fed to you.

Wrong on all counts, of course.

I have asked you several times to link to any official document or statement that proves your point, you have not done so because they don;t exist. If Mac Aurther was offered a peace treaty other then just as I have said then LINK to a document that proves it.

 

[JoeB131]

The Japanese were seeking peace negotiations from Potsdam onward.

Common misbelief, but wrong.

It's not a "misbelief". It's called propaganda. The left lives for it and Joey loves to spread it. Even he doesn't believe it.

Uh, Poodle, try to pick up a history book. Shit, I'll make it easier for you.. here's something from Faux News.

Historians: Soviet offensive, key to Japan's WWII surrender, was eclipsed by A-bombs

or possibly more than — the A-bombs in ending the war.

www.foxnews.com

"The Soviet entry into the war played a much greater role than the atomic bombs in inducing Japan to surrender because it dashed any hope that Japan could terminate the war through Moscow's mediation," said Tsuyoshi Hasegawa, whose recently published "Racing the Enemy" examines the conclusion of the Pacific war and is based on recently declassified Soviet archives as well as U.S. and Japanese documents..

"The emperor and the peace party (within the government) hastened to end the war expecting that the Americans would deal with Japan more generously than the Soviets," Hasegawa, a Russian-speaking American scholar, said in an interview.

Despite the death toll from the atomic bombings — 140,000 in Hiroshima, 80,000 in Nagasaki the Imperial Military Command believed it could hold out against an Allied invasion if it retained control of Manchuria and Korea, which provided Japan with the resources for war, according to Hasegawa and Terry Charman, a historian of World War II at London's Imperial War Museum.

"The Soviet attack changed all that," Charman said. "The leadership in Tokyo realized they had no hope now, and in that sense August Storm did have a greater effect on the Japanese decision to surrender than the dropping of the A-bombs."