The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[elektra]

Some here probably know who General Telford Taylor was. He was the chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg war crimes trials. In 1970, Taylor wrote that while the morality of Hiroshima was debatable, he knew of no credible justification for Nagasaki, and he said Nagasaki was a war crime:

The rights and wrongs of Hiroshima are debatable, but I have never heard a plausible justification of Nagasaki. It is difficult to contest the judgment that Dresden and Nagasaki were war crimes” (Nuremberg and Vietnam: An American Tragedy, Chicago: Quandrangle, 1970, p. 143; see also Richard Minear, Victors’ Justice: Tokyo War Crimes Trial, Princeton University Press, 1971, p. 101)​

What would you say if I told you that James Byrnes, Truman’s Japan-hating secretary of state, the author of the Byrnes Note, admitted after the war that the atomic bombs did not force Japan to surrender, that Japan was already beaten before they were nuked, and that this was evidenced by Japan’s peace feelers and Russian intel?!

Well, here’s how it happened: Some Japanese officials were claiming that they had had no choice but to surrender once they saw that America had nukes, and they implied that in a “fair” (i.e., conventional) fight, Japan would have defeated an American invasion of the home islands and forced America to sue for a negotiated peace.

When Byrnes heard these claims, he held a press conference on August 29 to refute them. He told reporters that Japan was already beaten before we nuked them, and as proof he cited Japan’s peace feelers and Russian intel that the Japanese knew they were beaten before Hiroshima. The next day, August 30, the New York Times printed a story on Byrnes’ remarks—the story was titled “Japan Beaten Before Atom Bomb, Byrnes Says, Citing Peace Bids.” Dr. Peter Kuznick discusses the New York Times article on Byrnes’ comments:

The New York Times reported, “…Byrnes challenged today Japan’s argument that the atomic bomb had knocked her out of the war. He cited what he called Russian proof that the Japanese knew that they were beaten before the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.” (The Decision to Risk the Future: Harry Truman, the Atomic Bomb and the Apocalyptic Narrative | The Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus)​

Very few books on Japan’s surrender mention this amazing fact.

And again you run from books you quote and statements you make. So now onto somebody else that does not matter. You could post a thousand quotes and they all have no bearing on history.

Japan lost a war because of the actions of themselves, had they surrendered, they would of saved many lives. But Japan was unwilling to surrender until we dropped two of thee deadliest weapons man has ever seen, at that time.

We saved an easy million lives, the fact that you can not post anything to dispute that fact proves once again, you are a charlatan.

 

[elektra]

* So far I’ve only cited a relatively small part of the important information in Hasegawa’s landmark book Racing the Enemy. .

Why did you not start, with the conclusion, that shows you are wrong? Let me quote the book for you. Here, from the book you are referencing, the blame for the atomic bombs being dropped is placed on Japan.View attachment 282736

I am still waiting for replies to many posts. I point this out again, because you continue to hide and lie. Posting more crap that again, I easily prove is not factual.

 

[MaryL]

Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. Fuck that. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

 

[Unkotare]

Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. Fuck that. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

You really think we incinerated hundreds of thousands of civilians in an act of revenge on behalf of China? Really?

 

[gipper]

Some here probably know who General Telford Taylor was. He was the chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg war crimes trials. In 1970, Taylor wrote that while the morality of Hiroshima was debatable, he knew of no credible justification for Nagasaki, and he said Nagasaki was a war crime:

The rights and wrongs of Hiroshima are debatable, but I have never heard a plausible justification of Nagasaki. It is difficult to contest the judgment that Dresden and Nagasaki were war crimes” (Nuremberg and Vietnam: An American Tragedy, Chicago: Quandrangle, 1970, p. 143; see also Richard Minear, Victors’ Justice: Tokyo War Crimes Trial, Princeton University Press, 1971, p. 101)​

What would you say if I told you that James Byrnes, Truman’s Japan-hating secretary of state, the author of the Byrnes Note, admitted after the war that the atomic bombs did not force Japan to surrender, that Japan was already beaten before they were nuked, and that this was evidenced by Japan’s peace feelers and Russian intel?!

Well, here’s how it happened: Some Japanese officials were claiming that they had had no choice but to surrender once they saw that America had nukes, and they implied that in a “fair” (i.e., conventional) fight, Japan would have defeated an American invasion of the home islands and forced America to sue for a negotiated peace.

When Byrnes heard these claims, he held a press conference on August 29 to refute them. He told reporters that Japan was already beaten before we nuked them, and as proof he cited Japan’s peace feelers and Russian intel that the Japanese knew they were beaten before Hiroshima. The next day, August 30, the New York Times printed a story on Byrnes’ remarks—the story was titled “Japan Beaten Before Atom Bomb, Byrnes Says, Citing Peace Bids.” Dr. Peter Kuznick discusses the New York Times article on Byrnes’ comments:

The New York Times reported, “…Byrnes challenged today Japan’s argument that the atomic bomb had knocked her out of the war. He cited what he called Russian proof that the Japanese knew that they were beaten before the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.” (The Decision to Risk the Future: Harry Truman, the Atomic Bomb and the Apocalyptic Narrative | The Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus)​

Very few books on Japan’s surrender mention this amazing fact.

Further proof Truman’s nuking of Japan was totally unnecessary, but don’t tell the duped American.

 

[gipper]

Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. Fuck that. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

In other words, you think mass murdering women and children of a defenseless nation is entirely okay, as long as they attacked you first.

PS...Japan didn’t kill millions of people. You have been duped.

 

[MaryL]

I watch NHK (Japanese television) all the time, with the moving memorials of Hiroshima every year. Its touching. But they rarely bring up Japanese imperialism and the slaughter of millions of Chinese and the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor that that started the whole thing. Perhaps they should.

 

[MaryL]

Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. Fuck that. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

In other words, you think mass murdering women and children of a defenseless nation is entirely okay, as long as they attacked you first.

PS...Japan didn’t kill millions of people. You have been duped.

IN other words: Japan murdered millions,and did atrocities and that should be ignored? That Imperial Japanese co- prosperity sphere, the rape of Nanking. Going back to the mid 30s. And then we, America , embargoed Japan to stop their imperialism That's what led to the Japanese attack on Pearl harbor. Hiroshima/Nagasaki was just payback, too bad it took twice to convince the fascist Japanese we meant business. That's on THEM.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Why did you not start, with the conclusion, that shows you are wrong? Let me quote the book for you. Here, from the book you are referencing, the blame for the atomic bombs being dropped is placed on Japan.

How does Hasegawa's conclusion "show" that I am "wrong"? Hasegawa does not say that Truman et al were blameless but that he believes that Japan's leaders, even the peace advocates, warrant more of the blame than Truman and Stalin do. I happen to disagree with Hasegawa on the apportionment of blame/responsibility, and I would note that dozens of the facts he cites point in a different direction, but his opinion on this one point does not change any of the facts that I have cited from his book. Furthermore, the articles that he wrote after his book was published clearly seem to markedly criticize Truman for his handling of the nuke decision.

I notice you still have not addressed Hasegawa's questioning of whether the A-bomb had to be dropped or should have been dropped. I notice you still have dodged around his very clear contention that nukes played a rather minor role in Japan's surrender decision and that the Soviet invasion was by far the major reason they surrendered.

I am still waiting for replies to many posts. I point this out again, because you continue to hide and lie. Posting more crap that again, I easily prove is not factual.

You have proven no such thing. You have ignored or failed to seriously address most of the evidence I have posted. I read your replies, but so often they are so dishonest and sophomoric that I do not respond to them.

Show me where you have "proven" that I, not to mention the scholars I've quoted, am wrong about the fact that we targeted the center of Hiroshima instead of the outskirts where the factories and military facilities were located. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Byrnes insisted that Japan was beaten before we nuked them. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Truman, instead of taking the advice of his Japan experts, took Stalin's and Byrnes' advice not to modify the surrender terms. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Japan was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack. Show me where I am wrong about the fact, noted by Hasegawa, that Soviet intelligence reported that in April 1945 the Japanese knew they could not continue the war for more than another eight months. Etc., etc., etc.

MARYL: Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland

That is a ludicrous comparison that, by the way, is based on Soviet and Chinese Communist propaganda. You have no clue what you are talking about regarding Japan's actions in China.

You do realize that Japan was capitalist and anti-Communist, right? You do realize that Japan was the most Westernized nation in Asia at the time, right? You do realize that Japan's main opponent in Manchuria was not the Chinese but the Soviets, right? You do realize that Japan acquired Korea after defeating Russia, which was trying to acquire Korea too, right? You do realize that millions of Chinese sided with the Japanese against the Nationalists and the Communists, because they brought stability, law and order, and economic progress, right?

...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

Leaving aside the questionable claim that Japan started the war in China, I take it you want to condemn the lesser of the evils in Asia. The Japanese army did not kill nearly as many innocent people as did the Soviets and the Chinese Communists, and they arguably did not kill as many people as did the Nationalists. In some places, such as Korea and Taiwan, Japanese rule, by any rational comparison, was moderate and beneficial.

Truman handed China over to the Communists and sentenced tens of millions of Chinese to death in so doing. Because of FDR's and Truman's pro-Soviet/pro-Communist policies on China and Korea, China fell to the Communists; the Soviets gained valuable territory in Manchuria and on key coastal islands; and we had to wage a bloody war in Korea just to free half of the country from the Communists, something that would not have been necessary if we had not demanded that Japan abandon Korea.

 

[MaryL]

Japan wasn't a blameless victim here, they precipitated this. Japan sought to enslave and conquer indo china. Well before there was Nazi Party , at the same time El duce Mussolini invaded Ethiopia. and his new Roman empire.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Mikegriffith1: So far I’ve only cited a relatively small part of the important information in Hasegawa’s landmark book Racing the Enemy.

Elektra: And it is best you only cite a small part, for the small part you have cited has proven you wrong on the Japanese willing to surrender and the impact of the Soviet Union declaring war against Japan.

You have cherry-picked two statements from his book and have ignored everything else he says in the book, not to mention everything else he has said in his subsequent articles. Let us review a few facts about Hasegawa’s book, not just the two statements you have cherry-picked (and misinterpreted).

FACT: Hasegawa states in plain English that the idea that the nukes caused Japan to surrender and that nuking Japan saved American lives is a “myth," and he says that there were alternatives to nuking Japan that Truman failed to pursue:

Americans still cling to the myth that the atomic bombs provided the knockout punch to the Japanese government. The decision to use the bomb saved not only American soldiers but also the Japanese, according to this narrative. This myth serves to justify Truman’s decision and ease the collective American conscience. To this extent, it is important to American national identity. But as this book demonstrates, this myth cannot be supported by historical facts. Evidence makes clear that there were alternatives to the use of the bomb, alternatives that the Truman administration, for reasons of its own, declined to pursue. . . .​

Justifying Hiroshima and Nagasaki by making a historically unsustainable argument that the atomic bombs ended the war is no longer tenable. (pp. 299-300)​

Needless to say, this is not your position, but it is the position that I have defended throughout this thread.

FACT: Hasegawa says that “even without the atomic bombs,” Japan “most likely” would have surrendered “shortly after Soviet entry into the war” (p. 296).

This is my position, and it is miles from your position.

FACT: Hasegawa says that the two atomic bombs alone, without the Soviet invasion, “most likely would not have prompted the Japanese to surrender” (p. 296). A few pages later Hasegawa makes an even strong statement along this line:

On the basis of the available evidence, however, it is clear that the two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki alone were not decisive in inducing Japan to surrender. Despite their destructive power, the atomic bombs were not sufficient to change the direction of Japanese diplomacy. The Soviet invasion was. (p. 298)​

This is nearly identical to my position, but it is miles from your position.

FACT: Hasegawa notes that Stalin hoped that Japan would not surrender before the Soviets were able to enter the war. The Soviets were worried that Truman would soften the surrender terms and that Japan would surrender before the Soviet Union could enter the war. Therefore, Stalin urged Truman to continue to insist on unconditional surrender:

To his mind, the war would have to last long enough for the Soviet Union to join it. . . .​

Stalin also feared the early termination of the war as a result of Japan’s premature acceptance of surrender. In order to prolong the war long enough for the Soviets to complete their preparations to attack Japan, he urged the United States to adhere to the unconditional surrender demand. (p. 86)​

I think it’s a travesty that Truman chose to follow the advice of one of the biggest mass murders in world history. You, on the other hand, have ducked and dodged all over the place when confronted with the fact that Truman followed the very policy that Stalin wanted him to follow.

By the way, Hasegawa also notes that Stalin was worried about the peace feelers that Japan was sending through Sweden and Switzerland (p. 88). We know Truman was made aware of these peace feelers, yet he did nothing to pursue them. Nor did Truman modify the surrender terms even after he learned that Hirohito himself wanted to end the war, that Hirohito had authorized an approach to the Soviets to mediate a peace deal, and that the only real obstacle was the fear that the emperor would be deposed in unconditional surrender. We know that in May, Acting Secretary of State Grew carefully explained to Truman that the Japanese would never surrender if they believed we would depose the emperor. Grew also explained how and why the emperor's power was limited by Japanese law and tradition. But Truman, bound by his unbelievably ignorant belief that the emperor was one of the militarists, wouldn't listen.

FACT: Hasegawa notes that the peace faction had to be careful or else the hardliners might force the appointment of a new cabinet, and violent hardliners might assassinate peace advocates:

Togo also knew how delicate the domestic situation was. One false step and the cabinet might implode, or political figures who worked for peace might be assassinated. (p. 95)​

FACT: In May 1945, the Big Six adopted a document that stated that “Soviet entry into the war will deal a death blow to the Empire” (p. 73).

This explains why the hardliners on the Big Six immediately agreed to convene a Big Six meeting after they learned of the Soviet invasion, whereas they saw no need for a Big Six meeting after they learned of Hiroshima.

 

[gipper]

Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. Fuck that. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

In other words, you think mass murdering women and children of a defenseless nation is entirely okay, as long as they attacked you first.

PS...Japan didn’t kill millions of people. You have been duped.

IN other words: Japan murdered millions,and did atrocities and that should be ignored? That Imperial Japanese co- prosperity sphere, the rape of Nanking. Going back to the mid 30s. And then we, America , embargoed Japan to stop their imperialism That's what led to the Japanese attack on Pearl harbor. Hiroshima/Nagasaki was just payback, too bad it took twice to convince the fascist Japanese we meant business. That's on THEM.

So this argument keeps rearing it’s ugly head.

Your position is since the Japanese committed atrocities, the USA is justified in committing atrocities. I don’t accept this. We shouldn’t mass murder civilians because our enemy does it. There is no justification for committing atrocities EVER.

Truman was a terribly flawed and ignorant man. He believed as you do.

FDR set up events for a Japan’s attack and knew it was forthcoming. Please get informed.

 

[elektra]

Why did you not start, with the conclusion, that shows you are wrong? Let me quote the book for you. Here, from the book you are referencing, the blame for the atomic bombs being dropped is placed on Japan.

How does Hasegawa's conclusion "show" that I am "wrong"? Hasegawa does not say that Truman et al were blameless but that he believes that Japan's leaders, even the peace advocates, warrant more of the blame than Truman and Stalin do. I happen to disagree with Hasegawa on the apportionment of blame/responsibility, and I would note that dozens of the facts he cites point in a different direction, but his opinion on this one point does not change any of the facts that I have cited from his book. Furthermore, the articles that he wrote after his book was published clearly seem to markedly criticize Truman for his handling of the nuke decision.

I notice you still have not addressed Hasegawa's questioning of whether the A-bomb had to be dropped or should have been dropped. I notice you still have dodged around his very clear contention that nukes played a rather minor role in Japan's surrender decision and that the Soviet invasion was by far the major reason they surrendered.

I am still waiting for replies to many posts. I point this out again, because you continue to hide and lie. Posting more crap that again, I easily prove is not factual.

You have proven no such thing. You have ignored or failed to seriously address most of the evidence I have posted. I read your replies, but so often they are so dishonest and sophomoric that I do not respond to them.

Show me where you have "proven" that I, not to mention the scholars I've quoted, am wrong about the fact that we targeted the center of Hiroshima instead of the outskirts where the factories and military facilities were located. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Byrnes insisted that Japan was beaten before we nuked them. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Truman, instead of taking the advice of his Japan experts, took Stalin's and Byrnes' advice not to modify the surrender terms. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Japan was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack. Show me where I am wrong about the fact, noted by Hasegawa, that Soviet intelligence reported that in April 1945 the Japanese knew they could not continue the war for more than another eight months. Etc., etc., etc.

MARYL: Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland

That is a ludicrous comparison that, by the way, is based on Soviet and Chinese Communist propaganda. You have no clue what you are talking about regarding Japan's actions in China.

You do realize that Japan was capitalist and anti-Communist, right? You do realize that Japan was the most Westernized nation in Asia at the time, right? You do realize that Japan's main opponent in Manchuria was not the Chinese but the Soviets, right? You do realize that Japan acquired Korea after defeating Russia, which was trying to acquire Korea too, right? You do realize that millions of Chinese sided with the Japanese against the Nationalists and the Communists, because they brought stability, law and order, and economic progress, right?

...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

Leaving aside the questionable claim that Japan started the war in China, I take it you want to condemn the lesser of the evils in Asia. The Japanese army did not kill nearly as many innocent people as did the Soviets and the Chinese Communists, and they arguably did not kill as many people as did the Nationalists. In some places, such as Korea and Taiwan, Japanese rule, by any rational comparison, was moderate and beneficial.

Truman handed China over to the Communists and sentenced tens of millions of Chinese to death in so doing. Because of FDR's and Truman's pro-Soviet/pro-Communist policies on China and Korea, China fell to the Communists; the Soviets gained valuable territory in Manchuria and on key coastal islands; and we had to wage a bloody war in Korea just to free half of the country from the Communists, something that would not have been necessary if we had not demanded that Japan abandon Korea.

Only the parts you dictate are fact, are fact?

You quote and cite a book for weeks and when I open my copy of the book and literally show what it states it is now wrong.

Well there you again, another source you used in confidence you now discredit.

If I keep at you, you will eventually discredit all your sources.

Technically, and person with a little bit of honesty and integrity is able to analyze events in history and write informative books on the subject.

That is what this book is, sure, there is some opinion in his book but at the same time he placed the blame on the people responsible.

You can not swallow that fact, too bad for you.

 

[gipper]

Why did you not start, with the conclusion, that shows you are wrong? Let me quote the book for you. Here, from the book you are referencing, the blame for the atomic bombs being dropped is placed on Japan.

How does Hasegawa's conclusion "show" that I am "wrong"? Hasegawa does not say that Truman et al were blameless but that he believes that Japan's leaders, even the peace advocates, warrant more of the blame than Truman and Stalin do. I happen to disagree with Hasegawa on the apportionment of blame/responsibility, and I would note that dozens of the facts he cites point in a different direction, but his opinion on this one point does not change any of the facts that I have cited from his book. Furthermore, the articles that he wrote after his book was published clearly seem to markedly criticize Truman for his handling of the nuke decision.

I notice you still have not addressed Hasegawa's questioning of whether the A-bomb had to be dropped or should have been dropped. I notice you still have dodged around his very clear contention that nukes played a rather minor role in Japan's surrender decision and that the Soviet invasion was by far the major reason they surrendered.

I am still waiting for replies to many posts. I point this out again, because you continue to hide and lie. Posting more crap that again, I easily prove is not factual.

You have proven no such thing. You have ignored or failed to seriously address most of the evidence I have posted. I read your replies, but so often they are so dishonest and sophomoric that I do not respond to them.

Show me where you have "proven" that I, not to mention the scholars I've quoted, am wrong about the fact that we targeted the center of Hiroshima instead of the outskirts where the factories and military facilities were located. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Byrnes insisted that Japan was beaten before we nuked them. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Truman, instead of taking the advice of his Japan experts, took Stalin's and Byrnes' advice not to modify the surrender terms. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Japan was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack. Show me where I am wrong about the fact, noted by Hasegawa, that Soviet intelligence reported that in April 1945 the Japanese knew they could not continue the war for more than another eight months. Etc., etc., etc.

MARYL: Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland

That is a ludicrous comparison that, by the way, is based on Soviet and Chinese Communist propaganda. You have no clue what you are talking about regarding Japan's actions in China.

You do realize that Japan was capitalist and anti-Communist, right? You do realize that Japan was the most Westernized nation in Asia at the time, right? You do realize that Japan's main opponent in Manchuria was not the Chinese but the Soviets, right? You do realize that Japan acquired Korea after defeating Russia, which was trying to acquire Korea too, right? You do realize that millions of Chinese sided with the Japanese against the Nationalists and the Communists, because they brought stability, law and order, and economic progress, right?

...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

Leaving aside the questionable claim that Japan started the war in China, I take it you want to condemn the lesser of the evils in Asia. The Japanese army did not kill nearly as many innocent people as did the Soviets and the Chinese Communists, and they arguably did not kill as many people as did the Nationalists. In some places, such as Korea and Taiwan, Japanese rule, by any rational comparison, was moderate and beneficial.

Truman handed China over to the Communists and sentenced tens of millions of Chinese to death in so doing. Because of FDR's and Truman's pro-Soviet/pro-Communist policies on China and Korea, China fell to the Communists; the Soviets gained valuable territory in Manchuria and on key coastal islands; and we had to wage a bloody war in Korea just to free half of the country from the Communists, something that would not have been necessary if we had not demanded that Japan abandon Korea.

Only the parts you dictate are fact, are fact?

You quote and cite a book for weeks and when I open my copy of the book and literally show what it states it is now wrong.

Well there you again, another source you used in confidence you now discredit.

If I keep at you, you will eventually discredit all your sources.

Technically, and person with a little bit of honesty and integrity is able to analyze events in history and write informative books on the subject.

That is what this book is, sure, there is some opinion in his book but at the same time he placed the blame on the people responsible.

You can not swallow that fact, too bad for you.

You believe the following:

1. Total war is what you do in war.
2. Mass murdering civilians in war is entirely justified and should be utilized as needed, to win the war.
3. The nuking of Japan was necessary to end the war and was entirely justified.
4. Unconditional surrender is what our leaders demanded and it must be imposed, no matter the costs.
5. Occupying Japan was necessary.
6. The mass murder committed by the Japanese, justifies the US government mass murdering Japanese civilians.
7. The Japanese were unprovoked by FDR and committed a sneak attack on Pear Harbor, in which the US was caught off guard.
8. Since they attacked a military base sneakily and were entirely unprovoked, the US government has the right to murder and destroy all of Japan.

Please let me know which points I got wrong?

 

[elektra]

Why did you not start, with the conclusion, that shows you are wrong? Let me quote the book for you. Here, from the book you are referencing, the blame for the atomic bombs being dropped is placed on Japan.

How does Hasegawa's conclusion "show" that I am "wrong"? Hasegawa does not say that Truman et al were blameless but that he believes that Japan's leaders, even the peace advocates, warrant more of the blame than Truman and Stalin do. I happen to disagree with Hasegawa on the apportionment of blame/responsibility, and I would note that dozens of the facts he cites point in a different direction, but his opinion on this one point does not change any of the facts that I have cited from his book. Furthermore, the articles that he wrote after his book was published clearly seem to markedly criticize Truman for his handling of the nuke decision.

I notice you still have not addressed Hasegawa's questioning of whether the A-bomb had to be dropped or should have been dropped. I notice you still have dodged around his very clear contention that nukes played a rather minor role in Japan's surrender decision and that the Soviet invasion was by far the major reason they surrendered.

I am still waiting for replies to many posts. I point this out again, because you continue to hide and lie. Posting more crap that again, I easily prove is not factual.

You have proven no such thing. You have ignored or failed to seriously address most of the evidence I have posted. I read your replies, but so often they are so dishonest and sophomoric that I do not respond to them.

Show me where you have "proven" that I, not to mention the scholars I've quoted, am wrong about the fact that we targeted the center of Hiroshima instead of the outskirts where the factories and military facilities were located. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Byrnes insisted that Japan was beaten before we nuked them. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Truman, instead of taking the advice of his Japan experts, took Stalin's and Byrnes' advice not to modify the surrender terms. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Japan was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack. Show me where I am wrong about the fact, noted by Hasegawa, that Soviet intelligence reported that in April 1945 the Japanese knew they could not continue the war for more than another eight months. Etc., etc., etc.

MARYL: Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland

That is a ludicrous comparison that, by the way, is based on Soviet and Chinese Communist propaganda. You have no clue what you are talking about regarding Japan's actions in China.

You do realize that Japan was capitalist and anti-Communist, right? You do realize that Japan was the most Westernized nation in Asia at the time, right? You do realize that Japan's main opponent in Manchuria was not the Chinese but the Soviets, right? You do realize that Japan acquired Korea after defeating Russia, which was trying to acquire Korea too, right? You do realize that millions of Chinese sided with the Japanese against the Nationalists and the Communists, because they brought stability, law and order, and economic progress, right?

...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

Leaving aside the questionable claim that Japan started the war in China, I take it you want to condemn the lesser of the evils in Asia. The Japanese army did not kill nearly as many innocent people as did the Soviets and the Chinese Communists, and they arguably did not kill as many people as did the Nationalists. In some places, such as Korea and Taiwan, Japanese rule, by any rational comparison, was moderate and beneficial.

Truman handed China over to the Communists and sentenced tens of millions of Chinese to death in so doing. Because of FDR's and Truman's pro-Soviet/pro-Communist policies on China and Korea, China fell to the Communists; the Soviets gained valuable territory in Manchuria and on key coastal islands; and we had to wage a bloody war in Korea just to free half of the country from the Communists, something that would not have been necessary if we had not demanded that Japan abandon Korea.

Only the parts you dictate are fact, are fact?

You quote and cite a book for weeks and when I open my copy of the book and literally show what it states it is now wrong.

Well there you again, another source you used in confidence you now discredit.

If I keep at you, you will eventually discredit all your sources.

Technically, and person with a little bit of honesty and integrity is able to analyze events in history and write informative books on the subject.

That is what this book is, sure, there is some opinion in his book but at the same time he placed the blame on the people responsible.

You can not swallow that fact, too bad for you.

You believe the following:

1. Total war is what you do in war.
2. Mass murdering civilians in war is entirely justified and should be utilized as needed, to win the war.
3. The nuking of Japan was necessary to end the war and was entirely justified.
4. Unconditional surrender is what our leaders demanded and it must be imposed, no matter the costs.
5. Occupying Japan was necessary.
6. The mass murder committed by the Japanese, justifies the US government mass murdering Japanese civilians.
7. The Japanese were unprovoked by FDR and committed a sneak attack on Pear Harbor, in which the US was caught off guard.
8. Since they attacked a military base sneakily and were entirely unprovoked, the US government has the right to murder and destroy all of Japan.

Please let me know which points I got wrong?

Waking up?

 

[elektra]

You have cherry-picked two statements from his book and have ignored everything else he says in the book, not to mention everything else he has said in his subsequent articles. .

Cherry picked? I quoted the conclusion. It is funny, reading your replies. The conclusion, the whole book summarized in the authors conclusion.

 

[gipper]

Why did you not start, with the conclusion, that shows you are wrong? Let me quote the book for you. Here, from the book you are referencing, the blame for the atomic bombs being dropped is placed on Japan.

How does Hasegawa's conclusion "show" that I am "wrong"? Hasegawa does not say that Truman et al were blameless but that he believes that Japan's leaders, even the peace advocates, warrant more of the blame than Truman and Stalin do. I happen to disagree with Hasegawa on the apportionment of blame/responsibility, and I would note that dozens of the facts he cites point in a different direction, but his opinion on this one point does not change any of the facts that I have cited from his book. Furthermore, the articles that he wrote after his book was published clearly seem to markedly criticize Truman for his handling of the nuke decision.

I notice you still have not addressed Hasegawa's questioning of whether the A-bomb had to be dropped or should have been dropped. I notice you still have dodged around his very clear contention that nukes played a rather minor role in Japan's surrender decision and that the Soviet invasion was by far the major reason they surrendered.

I am still waiting for replies to many posts. I point this out again, because you continue to hide and lie. Posting more crap that again, I easily prove is not factual.

You have proven no such thing. You have ignored or failed to seriously address most of the evidence I have posted. I read your replies, but so often they are so dishonest and sophomoric that I do not respond to them.

Show me where you have "proven" that I, not to mention the scholars I've quoted, am wrong about the fact that we targeted the center of Hiroshima instead of the outskirts where the factories and military facilities were located. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Byrnes insisted that Japan was beaten before we nuked them. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Truman, instead of taking the advice of his Japan experts, took Stalin's and Byrnes' advice not to modify the surrender terms. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Japan was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack. Show me where I am wrong about the fact, noted by Hasegawa, that Soviet intelligence reported that in April 1945 the Japanese knew they could not continue the war for more than another eight months. Etc., etc., etc.

MARYL: Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland

That is a ludicrous comparison that, by the way, is based on Soviet and Chinese Communist propaganda. You have no clue what you are talking about regarding Japan's actions in China.

You do realize that Japan was capitalist and anti-Communist, right? You do realize that Japan was the most Westernized nation in Asia at the time, right? You do realize that Japan's main opponent in Manchuria was not the Chinese but the Soviets, right? You do realize that Japan acquired Korea after defeating Russia, which was trying to acquire Korea too, right? You do realize that millions of Chinese sided with the Japanese against the Nationalists and the Communists, because they brought stability, law and order, and economic progress, right?

...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

Leaving aside the questionable claim that Japan started the war in China, I take it you want to condemn the lesser of the evils in Asia. The Japanese army did not kill nearly as many innocent people as did the Soviets and the Chinese Communists, and they arguably did not kill as many people as did the Nationalists. In some places, such as Korea and Taiwan, Japanese rule, by any rational comparison, was moderate and beneficial.

Truman handed China over to the Communists and sentenced tens of millions of Chinese to death in so doing. Because of FDR's and Truman's pro-Soviet/pro-Communist policies on China and Korea, China fell to the Communists; the Soviets gained valuable territory in Manchuria and on key coastal islands; and we had to wage a bloody war in Korea just to free half of the country from the Communists, something that would not have been necessary if we had not demanded that Japan abandon Korea.

Only the parts you dictate are fact, are fact?

You quote and cite a book for weeks and when I open my copy of the book and literally show what it states it is now wrong.

Well there you again, another source you used in confidence you now discredit.

If I keep at you, you will eventually discredit all your sources.

Technically, and person with a little bit of honesty and integrity is able to analyze events in history and write informative books on the subject.

That is what this book is, sure, there is some opinion in his book but at the same time he placed the blame on the people responsible.

You can not swallow that fact, too bad for you.

You believe the following:

1. Total war is what you do in war.
2. Mass murdering civilians in war is entirely justified and should be utilized as needed, to win the war.
3. The nuking of Japan was necessary to end the war and was entirely justified.
4. Unconditional surrender is what our leaders demanded and it must be imposed, no matter the costs.
5. Occupying Japan was necessary.
6. The mass murder committed by the Japanese, justifies the US government mass murdering Japanese civilians.
7. The Japanese were unprovoked by FDR and committed a sneak attack on Pear Harbor, in which the US was caught off guard.
8. Since they attacked a military base sneakily and were entirely unprovoked, the US government has the right to murder and destroy all of Japan.

Please let me know which points I got wrong?

Waking up?

That’s really sad. It merely proves you aren’t informed and you are a terrible blood thirsty warmonger.

Is it any wonder our government pursues nonstop war, when so many Americans think as you do?

A nation founded on limited government and nonintervention is neither, and amazingly many Americans still revere it.

 

[elektra]

Why did you not start, with the conclusion, that shows you are wrong? Let me quote the book for you. Here, from the book you are referencing, the blame for the atomic bombs being dropped is placed on Japan.

How does Hasegawa's conclusion "show" that I am "wrong"? Hasegawa does not say that Truman et al were blameless but that he believes that Japan's leaders, even the peace advocates, warrant more of the blame than Truman and Stalin do. I happen to disagree with Hasegawa on the apportionment of blame/responsibility, and I would note that dozens of the facts he cites point in a different direction, but his opinion on this one point does not change any of the facts that I have cited from his book. Furthermore, the articles that he wrote after his book was published clearly seem to markedly criticize Truman for his handling of the nuke decision.

I notice you still have not addressed Hasegawa's questioning of whether the A-bomb had to be dropped or should have been dropped. I notice you still have dodged around his very clear contention that nukes played a rather minor role in Japan's surrender decision and that the Soviet invasion was by far the major reason they surrendered.

I am still waiting for replies to many posts. I point this out again, because you continue to hide and lie. Posting more crap that again, I easily prove is not factual.

You have proven no such thing. You have ignored or failed to seriously address most of the evidence I have posted. I read your replies, but so often they are so dishonest and sophomoric that I do not respond to them.

Show me where you have "proven" that I, not to mention the scholars I've quoted, am wrong about the fact that we targeted the center of Hiroshima instead of the outskirts where the factories and military facilities were located. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Byrnes insisted that Japan was beaten before we nuked them. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Truman, instead of taking the advice of his Japan experts, took Stalin's and Byrnes' advice not to modify the surrender terms. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Japan was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack. Show me where I am wrong about the fact, noted by Hasegawa, that Soviet intelligence reported that in April 1945 the Japanese knew they could not continue the war for more than another eight months. Etc., etc., etc.

MARYL: Yeah, America just nuked Japan for fun. Nagasaki was just double the fun. We have been over this, Japan invaded China in the 30s as part of the "co prosperity sphere". Just like say, Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and started WII because it was part of the Sudetenland

That is a ludicrous comparison that, by the way, is based on Soviet and Chinese Communist propaganda. You have no clue what you are talking about regarding Japan's actions in China.

You do realize that Japan was capitalist and anti-Communist, right? You do realize that Japan was the most Westernized nation in Asia at the time, right? You do realize that Japan's main opponent in Manchuria was not the Chinese but the Soviets, right? You do realize that Japan acquired Korea after defeating Russia, which was trying to acquire Korea too, right? You do realize that millions of Chinese sided with the Japanese against the Nationalists and the Communists, because they brought stability, law and order, and economic progress, right?

...poor little Japan, starting war and killing millions of innocent people. Boo hoo.

Leaving aside the questionable claim that Japan started the war in China, I take it you want to condemn the lesser of the evils in Asia. The Japanese army did not kill nearly as many innocent people as did the Soviets and the Chinese Communists, and they arguably did not kill as many people as did the Nationalists. In some places, such as Korea and Taiwan, Japanese rule, by any rational comparison, was moderate and beneficial.

Truman handed China over to the Communists and sentenced tens of millions of Chinese to death in so doing. Because of FDR's and Truman's pro-Soviet/pro-Communist policies on China and Korea, China fell to the Communists; the Soviets gained valuable territory in Manchuria and on key coastal islands; and we had to wage a bloody war in Korea just to free half of the country from the Communists, something that would not have been necessary if we had not demanded that Japan abandon Korea.

Only the parts you dictate are fact, are fact?

You quote and cite a book for weeks and when I open my copy of the book and literally show what it states it is now wrong.

Well there you again, another source you used in confidence you now discredit.

If I keep at you, you will eventually discredit all your sources.

Technically, and person with a little bit of honesty and integrity is able to analyze events in history and write informative books on the subject.

That is what this book is, sure, there is some opinion in his book but at the same time he placed the blame on the people responsible.

You can not swallow that fact, too bad for you.

You believe the following:

1. Total war is what you do in war.
2. Mass murdering civilians in war is entirely justified and should be utilized as needed, to win the war.
3. The nuking of Japan was necessary to end the war and was entirely justified.
4. Unconditional surrender is what our leaders demanded and it must be imposed, no matter the costs.
5. Occupying Japan was necessary.
6. The mass murder committed by the Japanese, justifies the US government mass murdering Japanese civilians.
7. The Japanese were unprovoked by FDR and committed a sneak attack on Pear Harbor, in which the US was caught off guard.
8. Since they attacked a military base sneakily and were entirely unprovoked, the US government has the right to murder and destroy all of Japan.

Please let me know which points I got wrong?

Waking up?

That’s really sad. It merely proves you aren’t informed and you are a terrible blood thirsty warmonger.

Is it any wonder our government pursues nonstop war, when so many Americans think as you do?

A nation founded on limited government and nonintervention is neither, and amazingly many Americans still revere it.

Oops, A man so afraid of war is easily hurt with words. You should never fight for freedom let alone post on message boards.

 

[gipper]

How does Hasegawa's conclusion "show" that I am "wrong"? Hasegawa does not say that Truman et al were blameless but that he believes that Japan's leaders, even the peace advocates, warrant more of the blame than Truman and Stalin do. I happen to disagree with Hasegawa on the apportionment of blame/responsibility, and I would note that dozens of the facts he cites point in a different direction, but his opinion on this one point does not change any of the facts that I have cited from his book. Furthermore, the articles that he wrote after his book was published clearly seem to markedly criticize Truman for his handling of the nuke decision.

I notice you still have not addressed Hasegawa's questioning of whether the A-bomb had to be dropped or should have been dropped. I notice you still have dodged around his very clear contention that nukes played a rather minor role in Japan's surrender decision and that the Soviet invasion was by far the major reason they surrendered.

You have proven no such thing. You have ignored or failed to seriously address most of the evidence I have posted. I read your replies, but so often they are so dishonest and sophomoric that I do not respond to them.

Show me where you have "proven" that I, not to mention the scholars I've quoted, am wrong about the fact that we targeted the center of Hiroshima instead of the outskirts where the factories and military facilities were located. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Byrnes insisted that Japan was beaten before we nuked them. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Truman, instead of taking the advice of his Japan experts, took Stalin's and Byrnes' advice not to modify the surrender terms. Show me where you have "proven" that I am wrong about the fact that Japan was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack. Show me where I am wrong about the fact, noted by Hasegawa, that Soviet intelligence reported that in April 1945 the Japanese knew they could not continue the war for more than another eight months. Etc., etc., etc.

That is a ludicrous comparison that, by the way, is based on Soviet and Chinese Communist propaganda. You have no clue what you are talking about regarding Japan's actions in China.

You do realize that Japan was capitalist and anti-Communist, right? You do realize that Japan was the most Westernized nation in Asia at the time, right? You do realize that Japan's main opponent in Manchuria was not the Chinese but the Soviets, right? You do realize that Japan acquired Korea after defeating Russia, which was trying to acquire Korea too, right? You do realize that millions of Chinese sided with the Japanese against the Nationalists and the Communists, because they brought stability, law and order, and economic progress, right?

Leaving aside the questionable claim that Japan started the war in China, I take it you want to condemn the lesser of the evils in Asia. The Japanese army did not kill nearly as many innocent people as did the Soviets and the Chinese Communists, and they arguably did not kill as many people as did the Nationalists. In some places, such as Korea and Taiwan, Japanese rule, by any rational comparison, was moderate and beneficial.

Truman handed China over to the Communists and sentenced tens of millions of Chinese to death in so doing. Because of FDR's and Truman's pro-Soviet/pro-Communist policies on China and Korea, China fell to the Communists; the Soviets gained valuable territory in Manchuria and on key coastal islands; and we had to wage a bloody war in Korea just to free half of the country from the Communists, something that would not have been necessary if we had not demanded that Japan abandon Korea.

Only the parts you dictate are fact, are fact?

You quote and cite a book for weeks and when I open my copy of the book and literally show what it states it is now wrong.

Well there you again, another source you used in confidence you now discredit.

If I keep at you, you will eventually discredit all your sources.

Technically, and person with a little bit of honesty and integrity is able to analyze events in history and write informative books on the subject.

That is what this book is, sure, there is some opinion in his book but at the same time he placed the blame on the people responsible.

You can not swallow that fact, too bad for you.

You believe the following:

1. Total war is what you do in war.
2. Mass murdering civilians in war is entirely justified and should be utilized as needed, to win the war.
3. The nuking of Japan was necessary to end the war and was entirely justified.
4. Unconditional surrender is what our leaders demanded and it must be imposed, no matter the costs.
5. Occupying Japan was necessary.
6. The mass murder committed by the Japanese, justifies the US government mass murdering Japanese civilians.
7. The Japanese were unprovoked by FDR and committed a sneak attack on Pear Harbor, in which the US was caught off guard.
8. Since they attacked a military base sneakily and were entirely unprovoked, the US government has the right to murder and destroy all of Japan.

Please let me know which points I got wrong?

Waking up?

That’s really sad. It merely proves you aren’t informed and you are a terrible blood thirsty warmonger.

Is it any wonder our government pursues nonstop war, when so many Americans think as you do?

A nation founded on limited government and nonintervention is neither, and amazingly many Americans still revere it.

Oops, A man so afraid of war is easily hurt with words. You should never fight for freedom let alone post on message boards.

Yes you love war, which only proves you are a complete idiot.

 

[elektra]

Only the parts you dictate are fact, are fact?

You quote and cite a book for weeks and when I open my copy of the book and literally show what it states it is now wrong.

Well there you again, another source you used in confidence you now discredit.

If I keep at you, you will eventually discredit all your sources.

Technically, and person with a little bit of honesty and integrity is able to analyze events in history and write informative books on the subject.

That is what this book is, sure, there is some opinion in his book but at the same time he placed the blame on the people responsible.

You can not swallow that fact, too bad for you.

You believe the following:

1. Total war is what you do in war.
2. Mass murdering civilians in war is entirely justified and should be utilized as needed, to win the war.
3. The nuking of Japan was necessary to end the war and was entirely justified.
4. Unconditional surrender is what our leaders demanded and it must be imposed, no matter the costs.
5. Occupying Japan was necessary.
6. The mass murder committed by the Japanese, justifies the US government mass murdering Japanese civilians.
7. The Japanese were unprovoked by FDR and committed a sneak attack on Pear Harbor, in which the US was caught off guard.
8. Since they attacked a military base sneakily and were entirely unprovoked, the US government has the right to murder and destroy all of Japan.

Please let me know which points I got wrong?

Waking up?

That’s really sad. It merely proves you aren’t informed and you are a terrible blood thirsty warmonger.

Is it any wonder our government pursues nonstop war, when so many Americans think as you do?

A nation founded on limited government and nonintervention is neither, and amazingly many Americans still revere it.

Oops, A man so afraid of war is easily hurt with words. You should never fight for freedom let alone post on message boards.

Yes you love war, which only proves you are a complete idiot.

I love freedom, you prove you are a coward.