The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

Unkotare

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Now here is a thought exercise,....
= empty speculation

We will never know what might have happened because fdr rejected any possibility of peace out of hand. He had no interest in peace and so all those American servicemen, and all those civilians in Japan were bound to die to satisfy another bloodthirsty leftist like all the rest throughout history. Maybe nothing would have come from pursuing the many well-known overtures to an earlier peace, but we will never know. We only know that fdr's puppet did incinerate hundreds of thousands of civilians just as he always wanted.
 

Unkotare

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I think you really don't understand Japanese culture. All parties knew the war was lost by 1944. It was just a matter of how to end the war and still save face.
Oh really?

And what exactly in Shinto and Bushido said that surrender was acceptable?

We are talking about a culture that did not comprehend the meaning of that word. ...
"Death Before Dishonor" is a proud motto of the US Marine Corps.


"Potius Mori Quam Foedar"
-Massachusetts Maritime Academy Honor Guard
 

Unkotare

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...And I have been in Japan, the signs are not in "English". ....
There are signs, maps, and information everywhere in English (and now quite a lot in Chinese and Korean).
 

Unkotare

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Tell you what, feel free to do like I did. Actually go to Japan for a year or more, and tell me your experience. ...
What the hell do you think I've been doing, genius?
 

Unkotare

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....We are talking about a culture that did not comprehend the meaning of that word. A culture that honors the attack of 47 soldiers upon the civilian teacher who embarrassed their Lord. Who then went on to kill him, then surrender to be executed.
...
That is a misrepresentation of that famous story, and in any case you contradict yourself.
 

Unkotare

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... This is literally a culture that told their civilians on Saipan that it was better to throw their children off of cliffs then jump off themselves rather then surrender. That suicide was better than surrender. That dying in a futile attack was better than surrender.
...
Superficial, ignorant misrepresentation of history.
 

Levant

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"Death Before Dishonor" is a proud motto of the US Marine Corps.
Not the same as death before surrender and we weren't at war with the US Marine Corps.

Japanese culture is Japanese culture. It's for them to create and for them to own. Fighting to the death, jumping from cliffs rather than surrender, those are all options the Japanese had and were within their rights to include in their culture. But it cost them two atomic weapon attacks and, had they not revised their culture for the times, would have cost them more.

I see your turning the tables as a sign of defeat. You no longer defend the Japanese but attack the US. You lose.

Great job, Mushroom.
 

Levant

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Mushroom

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Japanese culture is Japanese culture. It's for them to create and for them to own. Fighting to the death, jumping from cliffs rather than surrender, those are all options the Japanese had and were within their rights to include in their culture. But it cost them two atomic weapon attacks and, had they not revised their culture for the times, would have cost them more.
It has not changed all that much really.

To this day Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the Industrial world. And unlike in most nations where the suicide rates are highest among teens and young adults, in Japan it is highest in those who are from 20-44. Especially when people lost jobs, a business fails, or a divorce happens. Their sense of failure often leads them to this to atone their shame.

This is a major problem, and in men from 20-44 suicide is the leading cause of death. Even their own government admits this is a problem, and has been trying for years to stop it. And for both sexes from the age of 19-44, suicide is the leading cause of death (in the US suicide ranks at #9, below cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and even pneumonia).

Of course, it is a culture and religion that does not have any prohibition against suicide. And culturally they accept that as the honorable thing to do if you have somehow fallen into dishonor. In fact, one interesting thing about Japan, if you want to take a loan out for a business, the banks generally mandate that the person take "suicide insurance", so that if the person takes a loan and their business fails, the bank is not left holding the bag if they then kill themselves because of it.

This is literally a culture that honors suicide. Plays and movies have been made about how it is the right thing to do, and they honor those who have done it in the past. That was their culture then, it still is to this day. SO why people would think it would be any different, I have no idea.

In 2007, Cabinet Minister Toshikatsu Matsuoka was being investigated for fraud. THe day he was supposed to appear in front of the Diet to answer questions he killed himself. Former Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara even praised that action, saying it was the honorable thing to do and he died like a "true samurai".

So why people refuse to accept that most of the nation would have died fighting against hopeless odds rather than surrender, I have no idea.

But yea, Poopy really does not know Japanese culture. The fact that he can not comprehend the difference between a Pro Quo Ante Bellium armistice and a surrender and insists they are the same thing is a show of his failure.

Yea, what Japan wanted was the same as what it accepted. Well, other than war crime trials, occupation, disarmament, no Government reform, and return of the islands they had lost in the war, and retaining control of Korea, Taiwan, and a lot of other territory. Yea, just tiny things that do not matter at all.
 

Mushroom

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Good for Chiune Sugihara. So what does it have to do with the atomic bomb on Nagasaki?
Or their contest to behead 100 civilians with a sword. Posted in the sporting pages of newspapers nation wide. With heavy betting, especially when it ended with both soldiers involved in a tie and going into "extra innings" with the new goal being 150 people. That was during the Nanking Massacre, and after the war both were executed for war crimes.

If Japan had its way, there would have been no trial. One of their demands was there would be no war crime trials, other than those they held themselves for their own soldiers.

Unit 731, massacres in all theaters of the war, hundreds of thousands of civilians killed, only 56 Chinese POWs released after the war, dismissing the Geneva and Hague protocols and conventions, ordering the execution of all American POWs, airmen and sailors, forced labor, "comfort women", the list just goes on and on and on. And as part of their demand (which no nation would present to the Allies) was there would be no trials for any of those atrocities and more.

But yea, pretend they are the same thing, and then divert by what 1 guy did.
 

Mushroom

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We will never know what might have happened because fdr rejected any possibility of peace out of hand.
Is that like "Peace at any cost"? Yea, they tried that with Hitler, and we all know how that ended.

And no, FDR did not "reject", every nation at Potsdam made the decision to accept nothing but a full surrender. All 4 nations, and when handed this the Japanese Government did not even try to negotiate, they just outright rejected it.

Tell you what buba, go back and research this little thing you must not have heard about, the "Potsdam Conference" in 1945. It follows up the 1943 Cairo Declaration, which stated that no nation would accept a peace treaty unless all 3 nations (UK, China, US) agreed to the terms.

So tell me, when exactly did Japan send a message to the UK, China, and the US stating that they accepted the terms? When did they even try to negotiate the terms? When did they attempt to send anything short of a return to 1941 and pretending the war never happened?

You keep lying and making things up, and it is really old now. Tell us exactly when Japan made it known that they were willing to do so. But amazingly, once they finally did reach out after the Privy Council and Emperor decided to end the war, the response was amazingly quick. Of course, we all know of the decision in the Privy Council that the Emperor decided in the early morning of 10 August. But what even less know is that this still had to be ratified by the Diet, which they did not do until 14 August. Which they then broadcast to the Swiss and Swedish Embassy for delivery to the US Government, in the early morning of 14 August (the wonders of the International Date Line).

The Japanese acceptance was sent with the provision that the Emperor remain in office, and the combined Allies almost immediately accepted that condition. A few hours later the Emperor made his famous first ever radio broadcast, and VJ celebrations started worldwide on 15 August Japan, 14 August in the rest of the world.

There is an even more complete timeline. Now kindly provide actual hard concrete proof that Japan tried to surrender in acceptance with any parts of Potsdam prior to 8 August. Do not give me the scribblings of people passing their mental masturbation variation of alternate history, give me the hard facts. The date they made this known to anybody as official policy to anywhere in the world other than themselves.

No matter how often you are challenged for this simple fact, you always just spin in a completely different direction. This is "put up or shut up", do not give us some silly opinion, give us the exact text and reference to such a statement by anybody of importance in the Japanese Government where they made it known to others they were willing to give up.
 

JoeB131

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Oh really?

And what exactly in Shinto and Bushido said that surrender was acceptable?
Bushido was a myth.

he only problem with that often repeated quote is that the Japanese did not surrender.

Remember, the night of 10 August they were still hopelessly deadlocked.

Now here is a thought exercise, try to stay with me. At that time the Japanese were already abandoning the mainland. China, Indochina, Manchuko, they were leaving all of it to return to Japan to fight off the Allied invasion.
Actually, you are a bit confused. They weren't backing out of those places and they were hoping for a post war settlement that would leave their puppet governments in those places in place. Once the Russians were in it and rolling through Manchuria and Korea with little resistance, they knew a peace deal wasn't possible.

The bombs were meaningless. We had been bombing Japan for months. Russia in the war is what changed it. They were now fighting a whole new war on a new front against an enemy that liked to rape women. The notiion of their country being populated by a bunch of half-Slavic bastards was probably too much for them.

Tokyo was not intended as a target until the 5th bomb.

The hope was that before it got that far they would see the futility in continuing to fight an atomic armed US and throw in the towel. And in order for that to happen, they needed to have the Emperor alive. But if they had not surrendered by the time of the 4th bomb, they never would surrender so bombing as many cities as possible followed by a land invasion would be the only solution to end the war.
We didn't have a fifth bomb or a fourth bomb. Again, they wanted peace, they just wanted peace on their own terms. We are the ones who conceded not putting that bastard Hirohito at the end of the rope he so rightly deserved.
 

Unkotare

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...Japanese culture is Japanese culture. It's for them to create and for them to own. Fighting to the death, jumping from cliffs rather than surrender, those are all options the Japanese had and were within their rights to include in their culture. ...
Fighting to the death for a cause and/or to protect your country is also valued and honored in western tradition as well.
 

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