The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[gipper]

You silly apologists for history’s greatest war crime, have zero credibility.

Leaders who opposed Truman’s war crime:
- MacArthur
- Admiral Bull Halsey
- William Leahy, Chief of Staff
- General Hap Arnold
- Admiral Chester Nimitz
- General Curtis LeMay

Yeah, none of those guys were going to get slaughtered on a beach on Kyushu

of course, everyone felt REALLY BAD about the nukes 20 years later.

At the time, it was just another weapon.

Are all of them frauds like Eisenhower? You disgusting imperialist warmongers have to be the dumbest of all Americans.

I think they were a bunch of guys who realized that nuclear bombs made them kind of irrelevant. No more place for heroes and generals... just victims.

If you had any intelligence, you would know why Truman did it and it wasn’t to end the war. The war was already over.

Except Japan hadn't surrendered and their military was committing atrocities all over Asia. They must have missed the memo.

LOL. Yeah they’re are hypocrites and frauds, says a dumb fuck.

 

[JoeB131]

LOL. Yeah they’re are hypocrites and frauds, says a dumb fuck.

Let me know when you can intellectually engage in the topic, rather than repeat whatever slogans you heard in the Libertardian Treehouse.

 

[gipper]

LOL. Yeah they’re are hypocrites and frauds, says a dumb fuck.

Let me know when you can intellectually engage in the topic, rather than repeat whatever slogans you heard in the Libertardian Treehouse.

Logic dictates that I shouldn’t debate an ignoramus. I’m much too intelligent for that.

 

[JoeB131]

Logic dictates that I shouldn’t debate an ignoramus. I’m much too intelligent for that.

If brains were gunpowder, you couldn't blow your nose.

 

[Levant]

Nah.. read the thread more carefully.

Gipper said that Eisenhower didn't bomb cities because he delegated the control of the air war in Europe. I was applying Gipper's logic; if delegating makes you unaccountable for what happens then Hitler is not accountable for killing 6 million Jews. It was a facetious remark because I support Eisenhower's bombing of Germany and I support Truman's decision to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki.. But, right or wrong, they both must live with and own the choices they made...

Um, no, that's still retarded. Conventional bombing was largely targeted at valid military and industrial targets. Yes, you had an exception like Dresden, but those were exactly that, exceptions.

Hiroshima, they spared it from bombing to have a more effective test of the atom bomb. That was kind of cold.

The Bombing of Germany 1940-1945 - Centre for the Study of War, State and Society - University of Exeter

humanities.exeter.ac.uk

Bombing cities in Germany started in 1940. US involvement wasn't until later but it continued from the earliest part of the war until the end of the war. More civilians were killed in Germany than in both atomic bombs combined.

 

[Levant]

Another article outlining the American involvement much earlier in the war in intentional bombing of civilians

The Allied Terror-Bombing of German Cities During World War II

When people think of the Allied bombing of Germany,

www.revisionist.net

 

[gipper]

Another article outlining the American involvement much earlier in the war in intentional bombing of civilians

The Allied Terror-Bombing of German Cities During World War II

When people think of the Allied bombing of Germany,

www.revisionist.net

Does that justify Truman’s war crime in your mind?

 

[Weatherman2020]

Another article outlining the American involvement much earlier in the war in intentional bombing of civilians

The Allied Terror-Bombing of German Cities During World War II

When people think of the Allied bombing of Germany,

www.revisionist.net

Does that justify Truman’s war crime in your mind?

It would have been better to fire bomb a few million Japs instead.

 

[JoeB131]

Bombing cities in Germany started in 1940. US involvement wasn't until later but it continued from the earliest part of the war until the end of the war. More civilians were killed in Germany than in both atomic bombs combined.

And so? The nazi fucks had it coming.

 

[Levant]

Bombing cities in Germany started in 1940. US involvement wasn't until later but it continued from the earliest part of the war until the end of the war. More civilians were killed in Germany than in both atomic bombs combined.

And so? The nazi fucks had it coming.

I agree. So did the Japanese.

 

[Mushroom]

One of the most popular TV shows in Japan right now follows B-list celebrities as they travel the world to find and interview Japanese people who are now living in various nations in every corner of the earth.

You can go almost anywhere in Japan and find signs, maps, and various forms of assistance in English and other languages to help out foreign visitors.

So xenophobic...

Notice, that is not in their own country. Yes, they have a fascination of other cultures. One of their biggest slogans for decades as "I Feel Coke". But that does not mean they want lots of foreigners actually living there and becoming their citizens.

And I have been in Japan, the signs are not in "English". What you will actually find is the place names of local cities and areas in the Roman alphabet. But they are not in English. They are just Roman spellings used for the Japanese names, which is the spelling system used by the majority of the world and not just in English.

Hence, the use of signs I saw all the time in Japan. Like "Ie Shima", which if it was really in English would have read "Ie Island". Or "Shuriji Shiro" and "Shuri Shiro", with "Shiro" instead of "Castle". But somehow, you equate that with being in English?

Tell you what, feel free to do like I did. Actually go to Japan for a year or more, and tell me your experience. One of the things you have to do is learn at least some Japanese, unless you stay entirely inside the "Tourist Enclaves". Which by the way I generally avoided if I could.

Yes, I often saw Romanized signs say when I went diving at places like Manzamo, which is a popular diving site Internationally (because of the popular "toilet bowl"). But go to places like Manza Bichi (little known in the 1980s), you had better be comfortable with at least some Japanese. Because once you left the main highway, the Romanized signs ended. So you had better recognize at a minimum the kanji characters for "beach".

I probably had a vocabulary of over 500 words in Japanese when I left in 1990, and could recognize over 200 kanji and word characters. I would even have halting conversations with other divers, finding some great unknown areas that few Americans learned about. You seem to think the Romanized signs are everywhere, they are not. Go more than a mile or so off of a main roadway, and they pretty much vanish.

And leave those areas, and you will find the locals increasingly standoffish, as they wonder why in the hell you are there. I still remember one restaurant I went to, and they were barely short of rude. However, the food was good and after one dive I returned, the smell of salt water still on me and the obvious marks on my face by the mask.

The waiter this time asked "Daibingu?", and I nodded. He understood our particular passion, and realized I was not intruding, but simply wanting to dive at the beach. Service was always great after that. But once again, unless I knew to look for Manza Bichi by the kanji script, I never would have found it. Once you left the highway, the Romanized signs ended.

Your talking about buying maps made for tourists is irrelevant.

 

[Mushroom]

I think you really don't understand Japanese culture. All parties knew the war was lost by 1944. It was just a matter of how to end the war and still save face.

Oh really?

And what exactly in Shinto and Bushido said that surrender was acceptable?

We are talking about a culture that did not comprehend the meaning of that word. A culture that honors the attack of 47 soldiers upon the civilian teacher who embarrassed their Lord. Who then went on to kill him, then surrender to be executed.

This is the real "Japanese Culture". Yet you say some of us do not understand it?

I have great respect for their culture, but that does not mean I am blind to the serious issues in it that were exploited by their leaders during the early Showa era. This is literally a culture that told their civilians on Saipan that it was better to throw their children off of cliffs then jump off themselves rather then surrender. That suicide was better than surrender. That dying in a futile attack was better than surrender.

Now please in your infinite understanding of "Japanese Culture" of that era explain to us where surrender was allowed.

 

[Mushroom]

"Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, the tough and outspoken commander of the U.S. Third Fleet, which participated in the American offensive against the Japanese home islands in the final months of the war, publicly stated in 1946 that "the first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment." The Japanese, he noted, had "put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before" the bomb was used."

You keep bringing things up like this over and over and over again. Yet you have to give us evidence any proof that the Japanese were willing to accept Potsdam.

Apparently you can not comprehend the vast difference between an Armistice (which they wanted and absolutely nobody would present for them), and either a peace treaty acceptable to the Allied Powers and a surrender.

So why you just keep repeating yourself is lunacy.

 

[Mushroom]

Sounds like you spent a lifetime as an anti-American, pacifist asshole and formed uneducated opinions based on the propaganda spoon-fed to you.

To be fair, that is a slight against pacifists.

I myself am a pacifist. I believe in trying any reasonable solution possible in order to avoid war.

But once there has to be a war or conflict, make it as fast and brutal as possible, to end it quickly and to serve as a lesson to other nations that may feel the same way later. That is because sometimes peace is simply not a choice available. Because peace requires both sides to not fight, and there is always somewhere in the world some asshole that is not willing to do that.

All the talking in the world would never have gotten Hitler out of Poland, or Saddam out of Kuwait. At times like that you need to pull out the "big stick", and paddle the hell out of the puppy to try and teach them that is not the way to behave.

I respect the hell out of those like me who honestly and honorably advocate peace. But I have no use for the "peace at any cost" crowd. Far to often in history we have seen the results of their beliefs. They are willing to see millions suffer, just so they themselves are not bothered.

Do not confuse the "pacifist fanatics" with honest pacifists. Ghandi for example, he was kinda nuts. He honestly thought the Jews should have not fought and marched into the gas chambers, and that the Germans would have gotten sick of killing them. His attempt at passive resistance worked great against the UK post-WWII, they were already sick of death and killing by then.

If Germany had occupied the UK and India, we all know what their response to the passive resistance campaign would have been. They would have marched in with machine guns and killed them all without a qualm. Such actions only work against another culture which cares about the effects of killing others. Japan and Germany of that era did not hesitate in slaughters of any people other than their own.

 

[Picaro]

We have the results of WW I and the failure to occupy Germany as the follow up to their defeat and what that led to, WW II, and for a modern example of half-assed measures in war George H.W. Bush's failure to finish off Baghdad in the Iraq war. Both make it obvious as to why half measures are a bad policy, at least with certain cultures they are. Conditional treaties and 'cease fire' agreements only lead to more deaths, not genuine peace.

 

[Mushroom]

"The Soviet attack changed all that," Charman said. "The leadership in Tokyo realized they had no hope now, and in that sense August Storm did have a greater effect on the Japanese decision to surrender than the dropping of the A-bombs."

The only problem with that often repeated quote is that the Japanese did not surrender.

Remember, the night of 10 August they were still hopelessly deadlocked.

Now here is a thought exercise, try to stay with me. At that time the Japanese were already abandoning the mainland. China, Indochina, Manchuko, they were leaving all of it to return to Japan to fight off the Allied invasion.

Now picture a world where the US did not drop the bombs, and the only thing you had prior to 10 August you had was the invasion by the Soviets.

Does anybody care to make the claim that Japan would have surrendered? Does anybody even want to make the claim that the Privy Council would have voted for anything other than 8-0 to continue the war?

Yet after 1 bomb you had one member of the council advocating peace, and 3 others wavering. Even Tojo was advocating to end the war as soon as possible, this was before news reached Tokyo of the Soviets entering the war.

Yes, the Soviets had minimal impact, the 3 others to cause the deadlock to end the war were prepared to find a solution even before they invaded.

Now, flip the history the other way. Drop a second bomb, and analyze the reaction of the council. Now they may have picked up 1 or 2 advocating peace, but likely not enough to deadlock it. The hardliners would have accepted nothing short of death, they were that firm in their belief of ultimate victory. Even if the 3rd or 4th bomb landed on their heads, they would have continued for the war to continue. If the 4rd bomb had landed somewhere other than Tokyo, they likely would have surrendered. If the Soviets entered the war or not.

 

[Picaro]

But once there has to be a war or conflict, make it as fast and brutal as possible, to end it quickly and to serve as a lesson to other nations that may feel the same way later. That is because sometimes peace is simply not a choice available. Because peace requires both sides to not fight, and there is always somewhere in the world some asshole that is not willing to do that.

....
I respect the hell out of those like me who honestly and honorably advocate peace. But I have no use for the "peace at any cost" crowd. Far to often in history we have seen the results of their beliefs. They are willing to see millions suffer, just so they themselves are not bothered.

.... exactly

Such actions only work against another culture which cares about the effects of killing others. Japan and Germany of that era did not hesitate in slaughters of any people other than their own.

This is something that modern Burb Brats do not understand about many cultures around the world; they've been fed a lot of nonsense about 'everybody is the same', and we can just 'dialogue' with potential enemies and then have group hugs and singalongs and all will be well.

 

[candycorn]

Again, my only regret about nuking Nagasaki was that we didn't obliterate Tokyo on the way back.

 

[Mushroom]

Again, my only regret about nuking Nagasaki was that we didn't obliterate Tokyo on the way back.

Tokyo was not intended as a target until the 5th bomb.

The hope was that before it got that far they would see the futility in continuing to fight an atomic armed US and throw in the towel. And in order for that to happen, they needed to have the Emperor alive. But if they had not surrendered by the time of the 4th bomb, they never would surrender so bombing as many cities as possible followed by a land invasion would be the only solution to end the war.

At the time of surrender the 2 bombs ready had already been used, and within a week the 3rd bomb would be ready, followed shortly by the 4th (the parts were already on the way to Tinian, and bomb number 5 would be ready the week after that. This would have given Japan 2 more bombs and another 2 weeks to come to the decision to surrender.

If by then it had not happened, goodbye Tokyo. And then every other bomb we were able to produce, short of the 2 which would have been held for the Operation Olympic (Kyushu Island) phase of Operation Downfall in November. And by the time that operation wrapped up there likely would have been nobody to surrender anyways.

By the time of Operation Coronet in March 1946, Japan would likely have been nuked over a dozen times more. The plan was to drop 1-2 every 2 weeks, eliminating any target of importance, starting with shipyards and aircraft production, then going down to large army logistic depot and large troop concentrations.

Hence, the importance of Hiroshima. Not only a large logistics depot, it was also the headquarters and command of the entire Japanese Army in the southern half of the island.

 

[Unkotare]

One of the most popular TV shows in Japan right now follows B-list celebrities as they travel the world to find and interview Japanese people who are now living in various nations in every corner of the earth.

You can go almost anywhere in Japan and find signs, maps, and various forms of assistance in English and other languages to help out foreign visitors.

So xenophobic...

Notice, that is not in their own country. Yes, they have a fascination of other cultures. ... But that does not mean they want lots of foreigners actually living there and becoming their citizens.
...

Assfacesayswhat? Did I forget to mention another very popular show about foreigners living in Japan?

COOL JAPAN - TV | NHK WORLD-JAPAN Live & Programs

What makes Japan cool? From traditional to on-trend, an international panel is immersed in Japanese culture, reporting back on their verdicts!

www3.nhk.or.jp