The Muslim claim to Jerusalem

[Penelope]

80% of Israelis belive in God, over 20% believe in Biat HaMashiach. If you mean "atheists", they are minority.

Give me a link. I have a link for you. Even your PM was born to secular parents. Admit it. You might believe in God but your a minority. Never mind I will post link for you.

 

[Penelope]

Give me a link. I have a link for you. Even your PM was born to secular parents. Admit it. You might believe in God but your a minority. Never mind I will post link for you.

Jewish secularism refers to the largest section of the Jewish people who are secular as well as the body of work produced by secular Jews over the past 250 years. Almost half of all Jews define themselves as secular.[1]
These people build up communities where Jewish holidays are celebrated as historical and nature festivals, and where life-cycle events are marked in a secular manner.
Secular Judaism has roots even before the Haskalah. From the time of Baruch Spinoza (1632-77) and his “agnostic morality”, came the belief of the human sense of morality through education and family life, not religious morality.
State of Israel[edit]
The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 is often seen as secular Judaism’s greatest achievement, with Hebrew as a spoken language rather than a language of prayer, and the majority of the population living secular Jewish lives. Some 2000 secular Israeli schools exist, where children study Jewish history and literature and celebrate the holidays without prayer or religion.
Institutes for higher education in Israel have not lagged behind. Oranim College and Meitar College for Judaism as Culture are some of the colleges established to further the study of secular Jewish culture.
Jewish secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Daniyel]

The Zionist were Jews mostly from a religious families..the idea of freedom is one of the strongest policies in Israel including religious freedom.
Israel established for the Jews not Jewish only.

 

[Daniyel]

But I'm very curious what DO YOU KNOW about Judaism, take your time I'm waiting.

 

[irosie91]

The Jews lost battles just like they battled for the land in the beginning, they never really owned it or even a part of it for any length of time. The Palestinians never left. That is the difference.

"the difference" ? what difference? Penelope ---you are utterly clueless on the history of the area--------so clueless that
your babbling is annoying------unless you are an infant in which
case it is possible that you are cute

 

[Daniyel]

Every time we are trying to discuss or debate anything about the Palestinians - I find we discuss Israel or being blamed one way or another..
Anyone from Team Palestine the Palestinians are actually humans?!

 

[Daniyel]

Navi Pilay said the Palestinians beat their wives because of Israel.. are we that bad?

 

[irosie91]

Give me a link. I have a link for you. Even your PM was born to secular parents. Admit it. You might believe in God but your a minority. Never mind I will post link for you.

''


Penelope seems to believe that a person who is either agnostic or does believe in God----cannot be described as SECULAR---
you are wrong Penelope-----jews tend to describe any jew
who does not adhere strictly to jewish RELIGIOUS PRACTICES as "SECULAR" I am a jew and a Zionist and I not only post on messageboards on Saturday----I also
ride in cars on Saturday-------other jews describe me as
SECULAR. If you do not understand----feel free to ask..

Secular Zionism does exist------whether the concept confuses
you or not

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Navi Pilay said the Palestinians beat their wives because of Israel.. are we that bad?

The Palestinians beat their wives because they wish their wives were more like Israeli wives.

 

[Lipush]

Do you ever watch the news? Most Jews living in Israel could care less abut Jerusalem. Do you know what secular jewism is? You may as well be atheist or agnostic at most. The Palestinians are the ones who believe in God and their holy sites.

I don't know which news you watch, but those are the wrong and lying ones. Most Jews love, care, and cherish Jerusalem. Even the secular Jews will say, that the thought of giving up on Jerusalem is against everything we stand for.

Either you're lying, or you're an easy pawn to those who lie.

 

[Lipush]

Do you ever watch the news? Most Jews living in Israel could care less abut Jerusalem. Do you know what secular jewism is? You may as well be atheist or agnostic at most. The Palestinians are the ones who believe in God and their holy sites.

Both Daniyel and I are Israelis, you stupid girl. We know what most Israelis believe in and think. You trying to fix us about what Israelis do and believe is outrageous and rediculous at the same time.

 

[Penelope]

I don't know which news you watch, but those are the wrong and lying ones. Most Jews love, care, and cherish Jerusalem. Even the secular Jews will say, that the thought of giving up on Jerusalem is against everything we stand for.

Either you're lying, or you're an easy pawn to those who lie.

Read post 42, and its from Wiki of a poll taken in 2001. Your PM is secular. I am not saying you don't believe in God how would I know, if Daniel does I have no idea, but many Jews are secular. Zionism is a political movement, not a Godly movement. Look at all the bloodshed once again spilling in Jerusalem since the Jews have returned, and that is the will of God, certainty not the God I believe in. Everything you stand for, I imagine , were you born there? and your kids? I was born here and I care about this country as well. I find it funny that some Jews , the orthodox ones , do not believe in Zionism and then we have non Jews who believe in Zionism. I don't care, but you have people locked up illegally and you have yourself an outdoor prison, with a warden.

 

[Daniyel]

Read post 42, and its from Wiki of a poll taken in 2001. Your PM is secular. I am not saying you don't believe in God how would I know, if Daniel does I have no idea, but many Jews are secular. Zionism is a political movement, not a Godly movement. Look at all the bloodshed once again spilling in Jerusalem since the Jews have returned, and that is the will of God, certainty not the God I believe in. Everything you stand for, I imagine , were you born there? and your kids? I was born here and I care about this country as well. I find it funny that some Jews , the orthodox ones , do not believe in Zionism and then we have non Jews who believe in Zionism. I don't care, but you have people locked up illegally and you have yourself an outdoor prison, with a warden.

So why bringing Zionism up? or why even talking about Judaism or Jews?
The Muslims have zero religious claim over Jerusalem, Period.
Now with this being clear, about the Zionism and Jewish majority in Jerusalem.

In 1854, Karl Marx wrote in the Daily Tribune that Jerusalem had a population of 15,500 souls, of whom 4,000 were Muslim and 8,000 were Jews. Indeed, Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since the 1840’s, well-before the rise of the Zionist movement. Sephardic Jews had settled in Jerusalem following the Spanish Inquisition and they were later on joined by European Hassadim. Both the Sephardim and the Hassidim were drawn to Jerusalem because of the city’s crucial importance to the Jewish faith. When Israel was declared to be a state, Jerusalem became the capital city of Israel, for Jerusalem has always been the center of the Jewish world for at least four thousand years. Given this history, Jews should have a right to build in any part of their ancestral capital city, especially given the fact that the ancient city of Jerusalem that King David presided over was located in Kfar Ha-Shiloach (Silwan), in today’s East Jerusalem.

Taken from The Jewish Connection to Jerusalem, Our Eternal Capital | United with Israel

Now for your information about 40% of the Jews are secular, some 'traditional' like me, and some 'fully' religious like my father, which spread to branches of Haredim(Like a general term for) , Chassidim, National Jewish, and so on.

And about the importance of Jews historically and religiously to Jerusalem.

Jewish Spiritual Connection to Jerusalem

To understand the Jewish connection to Jerusalem we must begin with the Jewish Bible. From the Jewish perspective, the area of special holiness is Mount Moriah, today known as the Temple Mount. This area is located beneath the platform on which the Muslim Shrine, the Dome Of the Rock, now stands.

In the Jewish Bible, Jerusalem has many names: Salem (Shalem), Moriah, Jebuse (Yevuse), Jerusalem (Yerushalayim), and Zion (Tziyon). The most common term for the city, Yerushalayim, is mentioned 349 times in the Jewish Bible, while Tziyon is mentioned an additional 108 times.

The earliest mention of the site is Genesis 4:18, when Abraham interacts with Malchizedek, King of Shalem. According to Jewish tradition the story of the Binding of Isaac (Genesis 22:1-19) also takes place in the "land of Moriah" on the site of the present-day Temple Mount. Abraham chooses the site specifically because he sensed how God's presence is strongly connected to this site.

In the Kabbalah, the Jewish metaphysical tradition, the rock of Mount Moriah is known as the "Even Shetiyah" ― the Foundation Stone. This is the metaphysical center of the universe, the place from which spirituality radiates out to the rest of the world.

Later patriarchal stories in Genesis are also connected with the site:

• When Isaac goes out into the fields to pray prior to meeting Rebecca for the first time (Genesis 24:63-67), he is standing on Mount Moriah.
• Jacob's dream of the ladder to heaven with the angels ascending and descending (Genesis 28:10-22) takes place on this site.

We see from here that for thousands of years, the Jewish people have always associated Mount Moriah as the place where God's presence can be felt more intensely than any other place on earth. That is why, for the Jewish people, the Temple Mount is the single holiest place.

This connection is still very much alive and well in contemporary Jewish practice:

• When religious Jews pray three times a day, they always turn toward Jerusalem. (Someone praying in Jerusalem faces the direction of the Temple Mount.)
• Jerusalem is mentioned numerous times in Jewish daily prayers and in the "Grace After Meals."
• Jews close the Passover Seder with the words "Next Year in Jerusalem." These same words are invoked to conclude the holiest day of the Jewish year, Yom Kippur.
• The Jewish national day of mourning, Tisha B'Av, commemorates the destruction of the First and Second Temples.
• During a Jewish wedding ceremony, the groom breaks a glass as a sign of mourning to commemorate the destruction of the two Temples which stood on Mount Moriah. The breaking of the glass is accompanied by the recitation of part of Psalm 137: "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest Joy."
• Religious Jews often keep a small section of one wall in their house unplastered and unpainted, as a sign of mourning for the destruction of the Temple.

Jewish Historical Connection to Jerusalem

The early history of Jerusalem is also rooted in the Bible. In addition to the events already mentioned, the Book of Joshua (ch. 10) describes how Adoni-Tzedek, the Canaanite king of Jerusalem, wages war against the Jews.

During the approximately 400-year period from the entrance of the Jewish people into the land, through the period of the Judges, Jerusalem remained a non-Jewish city. It was not until the reign of King David (ca. 1,000 BCE) that Jerusalem was captured from the Canaanites (2-Samuel 5) and converted into the political/spiritual capital of the Jewish people. (Archaeologists agree that the original Canaanite city and the City of David was located in what is now the Arab village of Silwan, a few meters south of the "modern" walls of the Old City.)

King David purchased the peak of Mount Moriah, as recorded in 2-Samuel 24:18-25.
David purchased the peak of Mount Moriah (2-Samuel 24:18-25) as the site for the future Temple and gathered the necessary building supplies. The Book of 1-Kings (ch. 6-8) describes in great detail how David's son, King Solomon, built and dedicated the Temple: "And it came to pass after the 408th year after the Children of Israel left Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel... that he began to build the house of the Lord" (1-Kings 6:1).

Solomon's Temple is also known as the first Beit HaMikdash (the First Temple). While all archaeologists agree that it stood on Mount Moriah, probably on the site of the present Gold Dome of the Rock, its exact location is unknown.

Four hundred and ten years after its completion, it was utterly destroyed by the Babylonians when they besieged Jerusalem and no trace of it remains.

After the Babylonian destruction, most of the Jewish population of Israel was forcibly exiled from the land. This forced exile on the road to Babylon is mentioned in the famous verse from Psalm 137: "By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down and wept when we remembered Zion."

Fifty years later, after Babylon was captured by Persia, the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem. Under the leadership of Zerubavel and Nechemiah, the Jews rebuilt both the Temple and walls around the city (Nechemia 4-6).

During both the First and Second Temple periods, the Temple was the central focus of the Jewish world both in Israel and the diaspora. Its upkeep was paid for by all Jews worldwide. The Kohanim (priests) and Levites served in the Temple, and three times a year ― during the holidays of Passover, Sukkot and Shavuot ― all Jews were commanded to come to Jerusalem and visit the Temple.

This rebuilt temple is known as the Second Temple (Bayit Sheni). It stood for 420 years on the same site as the First Temple, on Mount Moriah. The Second Temple was remodeled several times, but reached its most magnificent form during the reign of King Herod the Great (37-4 BCE). The great Jewish historian, Josephus, who lived during the end of the Second Temple period, gives detailed descriptions of both Herod's construction and the layout of the Temple compound (see "Antiquities" ch. 15 and "Jewish Wars" ch. 5).

The Second Temple period ended with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. It is possible that the Jews tried to rebuild the Temple at later periods, but they were never successful, and for over 600 years the site of the Temple Mount lay in ruins. The only remains are the massive retaining walls that encompass Mount Moriah, built by Herod to support the platform on which the Temple stood.

Modern Jewish Connection to Jerusalem

Although the Temple hasn't stood for almost 2,000 years, Jerusalem continues to be the focus of the Jewish world. The Temple may not be there, but Jews believe that the intrinsic holiness of the site always remains. Jewish tradition also maintains that in the End of Days, during the Messianic Era, a third and final Temple will be built on Mount Moriah.

It is often erroneously stated that the holiest site in the world to Jews is the Western Wall. This is incorrect. The holiest spot for Jews is Mount Moriah itself, behind the Wall. The Western Wall is merely a small section of Herod's massive retaining wall and has significance only as it relates to the Temple Mount itself.

So why do Jews pray at the Wall? Since the destruction of the Temple, the Sages decreed that due to the sanctity of the site, Jews (and non-Jews) should not go up on the actual Temple Mount. Therefore, the Western Wall became the site of prayer for Jews wishing to get as close as possible to their holiest site, the Temple Mount. It earned the moniker "Wailing Wall" because Jews coming to this site would shed tears over the loss of the Holy Temple.

Taken from Jerusalem: Jewish and Muslim Claims to the Holy City

@Penelope
This is the end of the matter I believe, you cannot say its a 'lie' because it exist long before your family first heard about Jerusalem, with all the respect, you cannot call this a lie just because you chose not to accept it or because it serve your purpose.

 

[Penelope]

Both Daniyel and I are Israelis, you stupid girl. We know what most Israelis believe in and think. You trying to fix us about what Israelis do and believe is outrageous and rediculous at the same time.

You all believe something different just like Christians.

 

[irosie91]

The Palestinians beat their wives because they wish their wives were more like Israeli wives.

You all believe something different just like Christians.

Penelope-----you neither know what Christians believe or what jews believe--------you know what YOU believe---and you express that which you believe, frequently-----revealing the fact that you are both ignorant and very stupid.
Your DECLARATION that all people "believe something different"--- is actually a reflection of your extreme ignorance-----there are LOTS of commonly held beliefs ----
especially amongst people of the same community----those
who identify with each other. For the kind of anti-Semitic
stuff you parrot-----visit a methadone clinic. The amount
of that islamo Nazi crap addicts believe is AMAZING.
When I was a kid------I used to find pamphlets of the stuff
you believe way off on the outskirts of town----near the
bars and brothels

 

[Indeependent]

You all believe something different just like Christians.

And just like the Muslims, the Jews in Israel who hold by various nuances in belief and behavior are viciously murdering each other; NOW do you feel stupid?

 

[Daniyel]

You all believe something different just like Christians.

So now we are making a progress! earlier you said Judaism and the Jews have nothing to do with Israel and Zionism so you just said WE DO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING.

 

[irosie91]

So now we are making a progress! earlier you said Judaism and the Jews have nothing to do with Israel and Zionism so you just said WE DO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING.

leave Penelope alone-----it is enough that she can memorize
islamo Nazi propaganda------do not expect her to be able to
"explain" it

 

[Penelope]

So why bringing Zionism up? or why even talking about Judaism or Jews?
The Muslims have zero religious claim over Jerusalem, Period.
Now with this being clear, about the Zionism and Jewish majority in Jerusalem.

Taken from The Jewish Connection to Jerusalem, Our Eternal Capital | United with Israel

Now for your information about 40% of the Jews are secular, some 'traditional' like me, and some 'fully' religious like my father, which spread to branches of Haredim(Like a general term for) , Chassidim, National Jewish, and so on.

And about the importance of Jews historically and religiously to Jerusalem.

Taken from Jerusalem: Jewish and Muslim Claims to the Holy City

@Penelope
This is the end of the matter I believe, you cannot say its a 'lie' because it exist long before your family first heard about Jerusalem, with all the respect, you cannot call this a lie just because you chose not to accept it or because it serve your purpose.

I can't respond to this civilly so I'm not going to right now. John Lennon was right when he wrote the song Imagine. Religion is what is wrong with this world, not God, but religions, fundamentalist and radical religion. Religion needs to disappear and we all need to just worship by our actions in life.

 

[irosie91]

I can't respond to this civilly so I'm not going to right now. John Lennon was right when he wrote the song Imagine. Religion is what is wrong with this world, not God, but religions, fundamentalist and radical religion. Religion needs to disappear and we all need to just worship by our actions in life.

You are 'WAAYYYYY off topic , penelope