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Confront reality
Oct 25, 2016
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If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.
 
If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.
As an atheist, I think you're engaging in some wishful thinking. Morals can be anything we want them to be, unfortunate but true. The 'we' being society not individuals. Some of the most brutal and immoral societies, at least IMHO, have been the most successful. Premier in my mind is the Roman Empire but I'd guess that most successful, pre-modern societies acted in a similar manner.
 
nature does have a preference for an outcome.

Which is what? Survival of the life perhaps, or just of the fittest life in the tribe and screw the least fit?

Let's see if we can get a couple of posts in before you start insulting and I put you back on ignore.

I often try to get Christians to chat on morals but they always run away. This aside.

Nature and your god are not communicating with us in any kind of direct way so let's go man to man to KIS.

What is your first or highest moral tenet?

Mine is generally labelled by moral philosophers as Harm/Care followed by a reciprocity rule of the Jesus type. Do unto others etc., but I tend to slide that into Harm/Care.

1) Care/harm: This foundation is related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturance.

2) Fairness/cheating: This foundation is related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy. [Note: In our original conception, Fairness included concerns about equality, which are more strongly endorsed by political liberals. However, as we reformulated the theory in 2011 based on new data, we emphasize proportionality, which is endorsed by everyone, but is more strongly endorsed by conservatives]

3) Loyalty/betrayal: This foundation is related to our long history as tribal creatures able to form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group. It is active anytime people feel that it’s “one for all, and all for one.”

4) Authority/subversion: This foundation was shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.

5) Sanctity/degradation: This foundation was shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).

Regards
DL
 
If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.
THE universal Truth is ALL men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights- taking that to heart and taught that by example can lead to virtuous men.

Fair and fairness are ambiguous as one ma's trash is another man's treasure.
Expectation of another puts an undue burden on the other which disrespects the others rights.

That you say "we expect" reduces, IMO, the thought to what you desire, again that is disrespectful of those who don't desire what you do.
 
If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.
As an atheist, I think you're engaging in some wishful thinking. Morals can be anything we want them to be, unfortunate but true. The 'we' being society not individuals. Some of the most brutal and immoral societies, at least IMHO, have been the most successful. Premier in my mind is the Roman Empire but I'd guess that most successful, pre-modern societies acted in a similar manner.
You are wrong. Virtue is the greatest organizing principle known to man.
 
If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.
THE universal Truth is ALL men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights- taking that to heart and taught that by example can lead to virtuous men.

Fair and fairness are ambiguous as one ma's trash is another man's treasure.
Expectation of another puts an undue burden on the other which disrespects the others rights.

That you say "we expect" reduces, IMO, the thought to what you desire, again that is disrespectful of those who don't desire what you do.
What you are describing is the natural law. And the natural law is given to us by the Creator for no other reason than we are his creatures with the condition that we fulfill our duties to the creator.
 
nature does have a preference for an outcome.

Which is what? Survival of the life perhaps, or just of the fittest life in the tribe and screw the least fit?

Let's see if we can get a couple of posts in before you start insulting and I put you back on ignore.

I often try to get Christians to chat on morals but they always run away. This aside.

Nature and your god are not communicating with us in any kind of direct way so let's go man to man to KIS.

What is your first or highest moral tenet?

Mine is generally labelled by moral philosophers as Harm/Care followed by a reciprocity rule of the Jesus type. Do unto others etc., but I tend to slide that into Harm/Care.

1) Care/harm: This foundation is related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturance.

2) Fairness/cheating: This foundation is related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy. [Note: In our original conception, Fairness included concerns about equality, which are more strongly endorsed by political liberals. However, as we reformulated the theory in 2011 based on new data, we emphasize proportionality, which is endorsed by everyone, but is more strongly endorsed by conservatives]

3) Loyalty/betrayal: This foundation is related to our long history as tribal creatures able to form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group. It is active anytime people feel that it’s “one for all, and all for one.”

4) Authority/subversion: This foundation was shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.

5) Sanctity/degradation: This foundation was shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).

Regards
DL
Mine is to do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I stand for good and oppose evil. Your deception is evil. I oppose the evil you do.
 
And the natural law is given to us by the Creator for no other reason than we are his creatures with the condition that we fulfill our duties to the creator.
Creator, creator- which one disowns us if we don't believe you and fulfill duties you don't approve of.

Nature's law is survival of the fittest- respecting others is what affords humans the capacity to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". No assembly required. No tithes asked for or demanded. No building to commemorate. No idols wanted. One Simple Rule. Respect others inherent/natural rights.
 
As an atheist, I think you're engaging in some wishful thinking. Morals can be anything we want them to be, unfortunate but true. The 'we' being society not individuals. Some of the most brutal and immoral societies, at least IMHO, have been the most successful. Premier in my mind is the Roman Empire but I'd guess that most successful, pre-modern societies acted in a similar manner.
You are wrong. Virtue is the greatest organizing principle known to man.
If that is true you should be able to provide plenty of examples from history and they should come from everywhere.
 
ALL men are created equal

Rather disingenuous to those born with the various conditions that prove that all of us are not created equal.

Look at the poor health and mental conditions so many babies are born with and that are affected negatively throughout their life because of it.

Regards
DL
 
If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.
THE universal Truth is ALL men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights- taking that to heart and taught that by example can lead to virtuous men.

Fair and fairness are ambiguous as one ma's trash is another man's treasure.
Expectation of another puts an undue burden on the other which disrespects the others rights.

That you say "we expect" reduces, IMO, the thought to what you desire, again that is disrespectful of those who don't desire what you do.
What you are describing is the natural law. And the natural law is given to us by the Creator for no other reason than we are his creatures with the condition that we fulfill our duties to the creator.

We are his??

That is slave owner talk.

Are you promoting slavery now?

Regards
DL
 
nature does have a preference for an outcome.

Which is what? Survival of the life perhaps, or just of the fittest life in the tribe and screw the least fit?

Let's see if we can get a couple of posts in before you start insulting and I put you back on ignore.

I often try to get Christians to chat on morals but they always run away. This aside.

Nature and your god are not communicating with us in any kind of direct way so let's go man to man to KIS.

What is your first or highest moral tenet?

Mine is generally labelled by moral philosophers as Harm/Care followed by a reciprocity rule of the Jesus type. Do unto others etc., but I tend to slide that into Harm/Care.

1) Care/harm: This foundation is related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturance.

2) Fairness/cheating: This foundation is related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy. [Note: In our original conception, Fairness included concerns about equality, which are more strongly endorsed by political liberals. However, as we reformulated the theory in 2011 based on new data, we emphasize proportionality, which is endorsed by everyone, but is more strongly endorsed by conservatives]

3) Loyalty/betrayal: This foundation is related to our long history as tribal creatures able to form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group. It is active anytime people feel that it’s “one for all, and all for one.”

4) Authority/subversion: This foundation was shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.

5) Sanctity/degradation: This foundation was shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).

Regards
DL
Mine is to do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I stand for good and oppose evil. Your deception is evil. I oppose the evil you do.

Ditto, but I do it by having other see you run from moral discussions, like you just did.

I didn't think you could get us past two posts without you starting to accuse instead of debate of discuss.

What evil do you see me promulgating?

The fact that it is evil for you to promote a genocidal god and his homophobic and misogynous religion?

Show the evil in that or be seen for the liar you are.

Regards
DL
 
Mine is to do unto others as I would have them do unto me.

Does your god live by that?

If so, explain his purposeless torture and death for the vast majority of us that scriptures say will end in hell.

Regards
DL
 
Should assembly be forbidden? Or scorned?
No assembly required-

re·quired
/rəˈkwī(ə)rd/

Learn to pronounce

adjective
adjective: required
officially compulsory, or otherwise considered essential; indispensable.

Christians have a hard time with definitions.

They sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to god's plan, then condemn Adam for furthering god's plan instead of praising him for not derailing it.

Christians are either conflicted or stupid for doing what they are doing.

Regards
DL
 
Morals can be anything we want them to be.
Correct, they are. That is why they are best defined by reason and empirical knowledge, instead of gut feelings, old religious myths, and cultural trends.

Almost all moral tenets are subjective and can change given circumstances.

I am thinking here of the older times where some city states would have to kill newborns when their lack of resources to feed the workers and the newborn made them decide that workers were to be saved and new babies killed.

That did not happen as often as most think, but when it did, I doubt that the populations involved liked to do what had to be done.

Regards
DL
 
Morals can be anything we want them to be.
Correct, they are. That is why they are best defined by reason and empirical knowledge, instead of gut feelings, old religious myths, and cultural trends.

Almost all moral tenets are subjective and can change given circumstances.

I am thinking here of the older times where some city states would have to kill newborns when their lack of resources to feed the workers and the newborn made them decide that workers were to be saved and new babies killed.

That did not happen as often as most think, but when it did, I doubt that the populations involved liked to do what had to be done.

Regards
DL
Even they could have (and probably did) reason out a better moral outcome, for example, to get more resources so that all would thrive.
 

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