The Israel/Palestinian Equation

[Bobby_Ray]

Israeli airstrikes pound down Gaza, and kill over 300+ Palestinians-most of which were civilians. The Israeli government said this was in retaliation for Hamas' escalating rocket attacks on Israel. So far, I could only find one Israeli who was killed by Palestinian rocket attacks in the last month or so, and that person lived in the southern Israeli town of Netivot. Israel's government justifies their massacre of innocent Palistinian people living in Gaza, by saying that one of their Israeli people were killed when Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel killed him. So, now Israel has declared outright war on Gaza and all the Palestinians for what Hamas, and a few Palestinian militants did. Israel's punishment of all Palestinians is an unfair conclusion in all of them Middle East mess. However, whose to stop all of this insanity? Not the United Nations-that's for sure. The only thing the United Nations has done so far is call on the phone and say, "stop it." So, why does this organization even exist in the first place?

Israeli Defense Minister, Ehud Barak told CNN news that Israel's military objective was to inflict a major blow on Hamas militants in Gaza-however, as of Sunday American time, Israel has declared all out war on Gaza, and is even considering calling up over 7000 ground troops, too. Ehud Barak told CNN that they wanted to change Hamas' behavior. However, the majority of the world is watching this in dismay, and accusing Israel of genocide, because although Israel claims they are targetting Hamas, and Palestinian militants, so far more innocent civilians have been killed than Hamas/Palestinian militant. And, most of these Palestinian civilians are forced to live in deplorable conditions like the bombed down rubble of houses, or out in the open like stray animals. And, many of them died because medical personal didn't even have the basic supplies and equipment to treat them with. Israel's military were ordered to continue their brute military might, and reign of airstrikes on Gaza until further notice. And, although the majority of the world does not condone what Israel is doing, no world leader has spoken out against Israel's actions, or tried to do anything about it. Instead, everyone is turning a blind eye on this ongoing tit for tat deadly dispute, and the body count of innocent Palestinians continues to climb into the hundreds.

As for Hamas and the Palestinian militants-well, they are wrong for firing rockets into Israel-inferior rockets at that, which seldom even hit their targets with accuracy. A perfect example of this is when a rocket fired by Palestinian militants on December 26, 2008-which was aimed at Israel-fell short of its target hitting and killing two Palestinian girls ages five and thirteen. These little girls deaths were senseless, and could have been avoided. After Hamas and Palestinian militants fire their rockets into Israel, they knew they had to move away from their position, because they knew that Israel would fire on their grid coordinance in retaliation-regardless if Hamas and Palestinian militants used sleazy guerilla tackets like firing from densely populated civilian areas. The only things Hamas and the Palestinian militants are accomplishing by using such tackets, and firing inferior rockets into Israel are committing suicidal genocide against their own Palestinian people, and helping Israel destroy the Palestinian people more quickly. Peace and progress never comes by way of war, bloodshed, or violence-and Hamas and Palestinian militants should know this by now.

And, where is the Arabs' biggest so called allie-Russia? It seems that Russia never helps the Arabs or the Palestinians when they are being blatantly pounded by Israeli military forces. Yet, Russia is always somewhere after the Palestinians get pounded trying to sound like the big soldier on the block with a powerful stick, and pretending to be down for the Arab cause. But, hey, wait a minute-aren't the majority of the Israeli Jews from southern Russia? I wonder how stupid the Palestinians are going to continue to be, before they wake up, and realize that Russia is not their friend? And, what about the Arab nations in the middle east themselves? At this very moment, they are just standing cowardly by, and watching as Israel air bombs and kills hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians-while a few Arab government leaders snivel before the international news medias about how the Palestinians don't have basic needs-yet, it was the Palestinians who broke the latest cease fire agreements, and preferred to try to resolve their oppression and suffering with inferior rockets that they launched into Israel. They were too foolish to even ensure that they could handle a retaliation of any magnitude from Israel, and this seems to be the case every few months or so. It's no wonder that the world is starting to completely turn a blind eye to all of this mess-like Israel said in one of their past wars with the Palestinians-"If a nation can't defend themselves against their enemies, then that nation doesn't deserve to exist." Now, if Hamas, and the Palestinian militants can launch rockets into Israel, but then can't back up their actions with military defense after Israel retaliates, then they shouldn't instigate trouble like this. And, if the Hamas government in Palestine can't defend its Palestinian people, but are just standing idlely by and watching them be massacred from afar, while their Palestinian military is also destroyed, then they should just step down from governing, and admit that Israel has the military might to take their lands, and is more capable of governing the Palestinian people than they are.

It is painfully obvious from past and present conflicts that Hamas, and the Palestinian militants do not even have the military capabilities to defend their cause and lands against Israel. And, if or until they do, they will just continue to be put to deathby way of war. The world is tired, and it is not the world's responsibilty to keep helping the Arabs and the Palestinians fight their wars-especially when they start them in the first place- knowing all along that they are too weak to defend themselves against Israel's superior military power, so fall further into poverty, oppression, and dispair. If Palestine can't properly defend itself against Israel, then it shouldn't be firing rockets into Israel, because they already know what is going to eventually happen-which is retaliation and war against them. And, until Palestine creates some kind of competitive war strategy, they will continue to be forced to be at the behest of Israel, anyway.

 

[DavidS]

Israeli airstrikes pound down Gaza, and kill over 300+ Palestinians-most of which were civilians.

What is your source that most of the 300 dead are civilians?

 

[jakbo]

Good post. I agree with almost everything you said.

You're correct in essentially saying that no nation has a right to exist. That goes for both the Palestinians and the Israelis.

I sympathize with the innocent Palestinian civilians suffering at the hands of brutal Israeli oppression as a consequence of the senseless aggression of a few militants who obviously do not have the best interests of the greater Palestinian society in mind. With that in mind, the Palestinian people, if they truly want to stop being victims, must get their shit together and put in place some leaders that know how to play the world political game and will keep the best interests of the Palestinians at the forefront of all Palestinian policy. Right now, I'd say getting along with their Israeli neighbors would be in the best interest of the Palestinian people and that is the goal any future Palestinian leaders should strive for.

I think of Israel as nothing more than a remnant of British imperialism. It's a remnant that persists because an Israeli occupied Palestine serves our interests. Right now, the Israelis have one thing going for them and that is their location; it's a strategic beach head into the Middle East for the Western powers. The fact of the matter is that we have major interests in the Middle East and the Israelis are sort of our little watchdogs, so to speak. We get intelligence from them and they are our only real ally over there. That relationship works for both the Israelis and us, for now. As soon as it is no longer in our interests to support Israel, I'm sure we probably won't support Israel. If and when this scenario plays itself out, I'm sure the Israelis will find out that they indeed do not have a right to exist as the Arab world eventually forces the Israelis out of the Middle East.

There is no doubt about it that the Israeli brutality towards and oppression of the Palestinian people is wrong (Nazi like concentration camps and Apartheid walls and such) and any retaliation by Palestinian militants is well-deserved, but until the United States starts pursuing interests that are more in line with human decency and morality as opposed to maintaining a militaristic hegemony in the Middle East, the status quo in Israeli occupied Palestine will remain in tact.

 

[DavidS]

Good post. I agree with almost everything you said.

You're correct in essentially saying that no nation has a right to exist.

No nation has the right to exist? Huh?

That goes for both the Palestinians and the Israelis.

I sympathize with the innocent Palestinian civilians suffering at the hands of brutal Israeli oppression as a consequence of the senseless aggression of a few militants who obviously do not have the best interests of the greater Palestinian society in mind.

Do you sympathize with all of the Israelis injured or killed by Hamas? Few? Hamas is not comprised of a few militants here or there. Hamas is comprised of tens if not hundreds of thousands of terrorists based in Gaza. It's a cancer.

As soon as it is no longer in our interests to support Israel, I'm sure we probably won't support Israel.

American interests do not only support Israel because Israel buys up a lot of bombs from us. Americans support Israel because Israel had a right to exist. That is why we supply Israel with weapons. Your failure to understand this simple concept is a failure to understand the entire Middle East problem. Israel has a right to exist. This is not an opinion. This is a fact. Jews have the right to their homeland where they originate from. That is Israel. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. Once again, you fail to understand this.

If and when this scenario plays itself out, I'm sure the Israelis will find out that they indeed do not have a right to exist as the Arab world eventually forces the Israelis out of the Middle East.

With 40 year old soviet technology? I highly doubt that.

There is no doubt about it that the Israeli brutality towards and oppression of the Palestinian people is wrong (Nazi like concentration camps and Apartheid walls and such)

Please show me your evidence of these Nazi-like concentration camps. The walls are meant to divide Gaza from Israel, to keep the people that want to blow themselves up on Israeli buses and cafes and what not on their side. Israel has a right to create a border wall to defend its people. Once again, you fail to acknowledge that any country has a right to defend itself.

and any retaliation by Palestinian militants is well-deserved,
but until the United States starts pursuing interests that are more in line with human decency and morality as opposed to maintaining a militaristic hegemony in the Middle East, the status quo in Israeli occupied Palestine will remain in tact.

Palestine was created from Israel you idiot. You cannot "occupy" your own land.

 

[Modbert]

David S said:

American interests do not only support Israel because Israel buys up a lot of bombs from us. Americans support Israel because Israel had a right to exist. That is why we supply Israel with weapons. Your failure to understand this simple concept is a failure to understand the entire Middle East problem. Israel has a right to exist. This is not an opinion. This is a fact. Jews have the right to their homeland where they originate from. That is Israel. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. Once again, you fail to understand this.

To the parts I bolded David, one by one.

1.) That's correct, without us Israel wouldn't exist in the first place. We don't support them because they have a right to exist, we support them because they are our foothold in the middle east.

2.) No, it's a opinion. No nation has a right to exist, and if it is a right then who gave them the right? God?

3.) Alright then, feel free to move aside as Native Americans come back to take their homeland in which they originate from. Oh and by the way? You're getting nothing for your land.

See David, your heart is in the right place (sorta) but your logic is all screwed up.

Which is why I hate these arguments. Too much emotion, not enough logic.

 

[mash107]

No nation has the right to exist? Huh?

An individual have a right to exist, and a right to their property, and their liberty. Beyond that, absolutely not. No government, ever, has the right to exist. A government is to serve a people, and if it's no longer doing that, a people has a right to destroy that government. For all intents and purposes, Israel's government is not serving the people of the West Bank and Gaza (and let's not kid ourselves, the Palestinian Authority is a joke and has no authority), so if people feel compelled to topple the Israeli government, they have every right to.

Palestine was created from Israel you idiot. You cannot "occupy" your own land.

1948 = Israel's creation. It didn't exist before then. Israel was a creation of British imperialism.

In this situation, despite Hamas being the perpetrators and initiators of violence, Israel should not be targeting civilian structures, like the University they just destroyed. A little too much like burning books, huh? Israel is justified to retaliate to rocket attacks, but not in the severity we've seen, at all.

 

[Lycurgus]

Israel's response in terms of life, death and injuries is much more harsh than the end result of the rocket attacks on Israel. This is true. However, simply because the terrorists were bad shots does not somehow excuse what they did or Israel's right to respond in kind.

If I were the Palestinian's I would round the people up who shot off the rockets and hand them over to the Israeli's. Let the Israeli's know through action that you will not support this type of action coming from any area you can police. How can Israel expect to feel safe with you governing yourself when you cannot have any influence at all over these terror groups. Stating that you don't agree with the terror groups is well and good, but, that does nothing to stop them!

In turn, if steps are taken to stop them, I mean real steps, then Israel needs to aid the Palestinian's in that effort, not bomb them. This is the same old vicious circle.

It's sad because truly innocent people on both sides are the ones who suffer the most.

 

[DiveCon]

Israel's response in terms of life, death and injuries is much more harsh than the end result of the rocket attacks on Israel. This is true. However, simply because the terrorists were bad shots does not somehow excuse what they did or Israel's right to respond in kind.

If I were the Palestinian's I would round the people up who shot off the rockets and hand them over to the Israeli's. Let the Israeli's know through action that you will not support this type of action coming from any area you can police. How can Israel expect to feel safe with you governing yourself when you cannot have any influence at all over these terror groups. Stating that you don't agree with the terror groups is well and good, but, that does nothing to stop them!

In turn, if steps are taken to stop them, I mean real steps, then Israel needs to aid the Palestinian's in that effort, not bomb them. This is the same old vicious circle.

It's sad because truly innocent people on both sides are the ones who suffer the most.

the problem with that is it IS the Palestinian government thats firing the rockets

 

[DavidS]

5 reported dead in latest IAF strike | Israel | Jerusalem Post

According to the UN, in a death toll exceeding 320, only 50 civilians have been killed. While feel not ONE civilian should die, it's not realistic. It's regrettable, it's downright stomach turning that innocent civilians have to die, BUT they're not dying because we're targeting them. They're dying because Hamas is using them as human shields, they're dying because Hamas isn't letting the civilians receive aid from Egypt and they're dying because Hamas is firing rockets at Israel from civilian homes.

Israel is doing everything it can and I hope they do more to avoid civilian casualties. No civilian deserves to die because of their government.

 

[jakbo]

No nation has the right to exist? Huh?



Do you sympathize with all of the Israelis injured or killed by Hamas? Few? Hamas is not comprised of a few militants here or there. Hamas is comprised of tens if not hundreds of thousands of terrorists based in Gaza. It's a cancer.



American interests do not only support Israel because Israel buys up a lot of bombs from us. Americans support Israel because Israel had a right to exist. That is why we supply Israel with weapons. Your failure to understand this simple concept is a failure to understand the entire Middle East problem. Israel has a right to exist. This is not an opinion. This is a fact. Jews have the right to their homeland where they originate from. That is Israel. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. Once again, you fail to understand this.



With 40 year old soviet technology? I highly doubt that.



Please show me your evidence of these Nazi-like concentration camps. The walls are meant to divide Gaza from Israel, to keep the people that want to blow themselves up on Israeli buses and cafes and what not on their side. Israel has a right to create a border wall to defend its people. Once again, you fail to acknowledge that any country has a right to defend itself.



Palestine was created from Israel you idiot. You cannot "occupy" your own land.

I don't have time to respond to everything right now; I'm not even sure I want to. In your response, you've made everyone keenly aware that you don't possess much education. Why don't you go read a few books or something?

 

[editec]

the problem with that is it IS the Palestinian government thats firing the rockets

Yeah, I think that's right, DC.

Hence Israel is targeting HAMAS government buildings, hence Isreal will inevitably kill civilians.

And that plays right into the hands of HAMAS.

There's no winning this game with bombs and bullets for Isreal.

And so they put up with the HAMAS provocations as long as they can, and then the public sentiment of the Isrealis forces them to respond in kind, and then naturally the Palestinian dealth toll rises and HAMAS wins the international media battle by looking like they're monsters.

Now if the Palestinians had an army to beat up on, they'd have a chance.

But since they are essentially at war with the Palestinian people (who did, after all put HAMAS in charge of their lives) every time Israel reacts to provocations it wins the physical battle and loses the psychological battle.

 

[jakbo]

I don't have time to respond to everything right now; I'm not even sure I want to. In your response, you've made everyone keenly aware that you don't possess much education. Why don't you go read a few books or something?

I apologize; that was a rude, knee-jerk reaction to you calling me an idiot. I'm on my lunch right now, so I don't have a whole lot of time. When I get home from work tonight and have had time to unwind a little, I'll respond to all of your points in a civil and objective manner.

 

[Modbert]

5 reported dead in latest IAF strike | Israel | Jerusalem Post

According to the UN, in a death toll exceeding 320, only 50 civilians have been killed. While feel not ONE civilian should die, it's not realistic. It's regrettable, it's downright stomach turning that innocent civilians have to die, BUT they're not dying because we're targeting them. They're dying because Hamas is using them as human shields, they're dying because Hamas isn't letting the civilians receive aid from Egypt and they're dying because Hamas is firing rockets at Israel from civilian homes.

Israel is doing everything it can and I hope they do more to avoid civilian casualties. No civilian deserves to die because of their government.

I thought Israel was supposedly firing at only military places?

I also remembered reading a story where Israel so far has no comment after a missile hit a house which killed the five children in the house.

And really, ONLY 50? If that was 50 Israelis civilians dead, you'd be at the mouth foaming with rage.

For every 6.4 militants they kill, 1 civilian dies.

 

[DiveCon]

I thought Israel was supposedly firing at only military places?

I also remembered reading a story where Israel so far has no comment after a missile hit a house which killed the five children in the house.

And really, ONLY 50? If that was 50 Israelis civilians dead, you'd be at the mouth foaming with rage.

For every 6.4 militants they kill, 1 civilian dies.

considering the FACT that Hamas WANTS the civilians to die so they can be used for propaganda for the useful idiots
tells me that its a pretty low ratio

 

[Annie]

My question to those supporting that Israel should never respond, what would you propose they do? Abandon their land? Just let Hamas take over? What?

 

[Modbert]

considering the FACT that Hamas WANTS the civilians to die so they can be used for propaganda for the useful idiots
tells me that its a pretty low ratio

So glad your a mind reader. How do you propose he makes them die? Ties them up in their homes while his men shoot missiles to Israel and then leave the people tied up in their homes while Israel responds?

 

[DiveCon]

So glad your a mind reader. How do you propose he makes them die? Ties them up in their homes while his men shoot missiles to Israel and then leave the people tied up in their homes while Israel responds?

robert, grow the fuck up and learn what they actually do
you might try learning the Geneva Conventions first as to the generally accepted rules for military

 

[Modbert]

robert, grow the fuck up and learn what they actually do
you might try learning the Geneva Conventions first as to the generally accepted rules for military

Well I'm asking you what they actually do. And I'd like a valid source please. Otherwise, all you're saying is bullshit if you cannot back it up.

And I have learned the Geneva Convention thanks.

 

[DiveCon]

Well I'm asking you what they actually do. And I'd like a valid source please. Otherwise, all you're saying is bullshit if you cannot back it up.

And I have learned the Geneva Convention thanks.

then you know that military are not supposed to be within civilian areas in war time
they need to be clearly in uniforms that seperate them as well
that military instalations are not to have civilians in them in a time of war


when the Palestinians do that, you can complain about their civilian casualties

you come off as totally ignorant of the facts

 

[Modbert]

then you know that military are not supposed to be within civilian areas in war time
they need to be clearly in uniforms that seperate them as well
that military instalations are not to have civilians in them in a time of war


when the Palestinians do that, you can complain about their civilian casualties

So how is that the innocents fault? They're gonna say no to letting them use their house supposedly then? Oh yeah, I'm sure Hamas won't mind and wouldn't kill them.

Stop trying to justify Israelis bombs that have killed civilians. Besides, if these are missiles then what the fuck difference would uniforms make?