The Innocence Project

[Disir]

​

Fighting Wrongful Convictions

Law professor & attorney Barry Scheck recounts the story behind the founding of The Innocence Project, a non-profit legal organization that is committed to exonerating wrongly convicted people through the use of DNA testing, and to reforming the criminal justice system to prevent future injustice.

Have you heard of this project and its long list of innocent victims it has freed from death row, life imprisonment, and extreme personal culpability resulting in long sentences, unwarranted lifetime punishment in the case of false testimonies being the sole reason for incarceration in "molestation" cases, not to mention constant harassment people on sex offender lists have for life, including threats to their families.

Yep. It's an excellent organization.

Also, one of my old text books was written by Scott Turow. It's called Ultimate Punishment. He was on the Illinois Commission on Capital Punishment.
http://illinoismurderindictments.la...ois_Moratorium_Commission_complete-report.pdf

The book is a short read. The fall out from some of the cases was still in the media some five years ago.

 

[beautress]

​

Fighting Wrongful Convictions

Law professor & attorney Barry Scheck recounts the story behind the founding of The Innocence Project, a non-profit legal organization that is committed to exonerating wrongly convicted people through the use of DNA testing, and to reforming the criminal justice system to prevent future injustice.

Have you heard of this project and its long list of innocent victims it has freed from death row, life imprisonment, and extreme personal culpability resulting in long sentences, unwarranted lifetime punishment in the case of false testimonies being the sole reason for incarceration in "molestation" cases, not to mention constant harassment people on sex offender lists have for life, including threats to their families.

Yep. It's an excellent organization.

Also, one of my old text books was written by Scott Turow. It's called Ultimate Punishment. He was on the Illinois Commission on Capital Punishment.
http://illinoismurderindictments.la...ois_Moratorium_Commission_complete-report.pdf

The book is a short read. The fall out from some of the cases was still in the media some five years ago.

My hunch is that most states doing their best to do justice have numerous obstacles in their way:

1. Human error
2. Seeing pictures from a crime scene that shows death in heinous positions showing a particular vicious nature in arms and legs broken in strange and startling positions
3. Extreme anger in the eye of the beholder
4. Flaws, angry expressions, and denials that rub the viewer the wrong way
5. Believing that the ugliest or most flawed suspect is guilty of sinister death.
6. Revulsion toward an innocent person in contrast to a cool-appearing perpetrator who doesn't act the part of a torture-killer.
7. Deciding on the person being accused was the perpetrator the crime sans facts that would indicate guilt.
8. Guilty people putting on an academy-winning award performance on why they couldn't possibly be the perpetrator
9. Jurors who feel they must find the person who most likely was the killer.
10. Accused persons who seem above the fray
11. Failure to follow the clues accurately.​

 

[MeBelle]

I agree. Northwestern University's professor who led a group of postgrad students to reinvestigate DNA samples found a huge percentage of people on death row were actually innocent of the crime based on scientific proof that DNA is.

found a huge percentage of people on death row were actually innocent of the crime based on scientific proof that DNA is.

You have a link to the huge percentage?

The Innocence Project alone has gotten 21 people off of Death Row. Twenty One people who would have died if the system had acted as many people wish it would. Quickly execute those who are convicted. But that is not all. That is merely the Innocence Project.

Since 1973, when the Death Penalty was reinstated, about 1/3 of the cases have been overturned on appeal. Why the Death Penalty Costs More Than Life in Prison

Those include procedural errors. That is mistakes made in the trial, jury instructions, evidence inclusion or exclusion, witness issues, and that sort of thing. Exoneration in subsequent reviews of the Courts. That is to say that the Appeals Courts examined the transcript and records and found that the Verdict was wrong. Or the Defendant had the sentence overturned and sentenced to a lesser penalty.

So your statistic is about 33%. Many here, myself included, think One is too many. Justice Blackwell was absolutely correct when he said that it was better for a thousand guilty men to go free than one innocent man to be sent to prison. But think about that for a moment. Imagine how you would feel. Imagine how you would feel if your Son or daughter, or spouse was sentenced to Prison, or death, for a crime you know they did not commit. Imagine how you would feel if you had to bankrupt yourself to get them out. Imagine how you would feel if it was you who was sentenced for a crime you did not commit.

We have to be careful, and certain, when we do these things. I am not talking 100% certain, well perhaps for the death penalty, but otherwise prison. We need to be as certain as possible. The purpose of the trial is to cast a wary eye at the Prosecution. We are supposed to be the Doubting Thomas. We are supposed to require proof. Sadly, too many of our fellow citizens don’t.

They assume that the Police are right. And the accused, even if he didn’t do this, must have done something. Otherwise he wouldn’t be here right? We are afraid of letting the guilty go free, so we convict the accused.

We need to question everything we are told. The FBI has a long and sordid history of manipulating evidence. Look up Lead Matching if you doubt me. They matched hair and fiber samples, which they swore in court matched exactly. Until DNA came about, and showed that it didn’t match jack shit. They still use this expert testimony, it matches, and you’ll just have to take my word on it. I swear to God. The Police do much of the same thing. We know that now don’t we? So we need to be sure.

We need to be certain. Because we are taking the life, liberty, and property of those we convict. Even if we only sentence them to a few years, it is a few years that we need to be as certain as possible they deserve to pay for the crime. It isn’t enough that Someone has to pay. The right person has to pay. As long as we continue to exonerate those who have been convicted, we have not done the job properly.

The Innocence Project alone has gotten 21 people off of Death Row.

21 out of how many?

The statistic you asked for was covered in a later portion of the post. The total number is referenced in the link. Here is a second link to the Bureau of Justice Statistics showing Death Penalty numbers you might find interesting.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cp13st.pdf

In 2013, the year this report covers, the disposition of Death Penalty cases breaks down as thus.

115 were removed from Death Row. 39 were executed, 31 died of other causes, and 45 were removed by court action. Their sentences were changed, or their convictions overturned. So the largest group was those who had some situation or another with their trials.

During that same year, another 83 were added to the Death Row’s. If we assume that 2013 was an odd year, and had a higher number than average in removals for court issues, does that mean that the average mentioned before, of 33% is acceptable, or not when contemplating the Death Penalty? If one case out of three is flawed in some fatal way, do we dare continue with it?

Your original claim was:

Since 1973, when the Death Penalty was reinstated, about 1/3 of the cases have been overturned on appeal. Why the Death Penalty Costs More Than Life in Prison

How does your original claim mesh with your new 'stats' from 2013?

 

[DGS49]

Keep in mind, the Innocence Project tries to work for people who are factually innocent; they DID NOT COMMIT the crimes for which they were convicted. They only accept a few of the cases submitted to them, because the vast majority of petitioners are simply lying, or have no credible evidence in their favor. Outside the Innocence Project, MOST people who are "exonerated" go free because of irregularities in the prosecution or trial - NOT because they were factually innocent. In fact, appeals of convictions generally do not even look at the evidence or question the fact-finder's (judge or jury) conclusions, nor do they look at "new evidence" that comes to light after the trial. That stuff is generally considered (or not) by boards that Governor's set up to assess requests for pardon or commutation.

It is often said that there has not been a single case of a factually-innocent person being executed in the United States in the Modern Era (say, since 1950). Many people (a number possibly reaching into three digits, nation-wide) have been "exonerated" while on Death Row, but see above when it comes to exoneration. Only a few of them were proven innocent of the crimes they committed. And again, they were not executed.

The categorical statement in the preceding paragraph is challenged vigorously by advocates for Death Row convicts, but when you cut through all the wishful thinking and obfuscation, what you come down to is "this guy might not have been the guilty one."

The most egregious recent case of guilty people going free (and paid tens of millions of dollars for their discomfort) was the infamous case of the "Central Park Five."

In this case, five marauding Yoots in New York's Central Park attacked a woman-jogger, savagely beat her, repeatedly attempted to rape her, then left her to die. Shortly thereafter, a sixth attacker came on the scene, SUCCESSFULLY raped her, and departed. The victim, thankfully, survived and remembered nothing of the entire episode.

The five initial attackers were found, arrested, questioned, CONFESSED - two of them with parents and legal counsel present - and were unanimously convicted by a bi-racial jury of their peers. At the time, there was no DNA evidence from any of the five, but there was DNA from the sixth attacker. This was told to the jury, and they convicted the CP5 anyway.

Several years later, an imprisoned and dying serial rapist named Matias Reyes confessed to being the sixth attacker.

In a typical manifestation of New York Justice, this confession was deemed by the New York Authorities to be proof of the innocence of the CP5! And this worthy group of felons were not only "exonerated" and freed from prison, but when they filed suit against the City of New York, the addled Mayor of that fine city gave them a settlement of, collectively, $41 Million.

So much for exoneration of criminals.

 

[Jarlaxle]

How many innocent people are you willing to kill to sate your blood lust?

 

[Disir]

​

Fighting Wrongful Convictions

Law professor & attorney Barry Scheck recounts the story behind the founding of The Innocence Project, a non-profit legal organization that is committed to exonerating wrongly convicted people through the use of DNA testing, and to reforming the criminal justice system to prevent future injustice.

Have you heard of this project and its long list of innocent victims it has freed from death row, life imprisonment, and extreme personal culpability resulting in long sentences, unwarranted lifetime punishment in the case of false testimonies being the sole reason for incarceration in "molestation" cases, not to mention constant harassment people on sex offender lists have for life, including threats to their families.

Yep. It's an excellent organization.

Also, one of my old text books was written by Scott Turow. It's called Ultimate Punishment. He was on the Illinois Commission on Capital Punishment.
http://illinoismurderindictments.la...ois_Moratorium_Commission_complete-report.pdf

The book is a short read. The fall out from some of the cases was still in the media some five years ago.

My hunch is that most states doing their best to do justice have numerous obstacles in their way:

1. Human error
2. Seeing pictures from a crime scene that shows death in heinous positions showing a particular vicious nature in arms and legs broken in strange and startling positions
3. Extreme anger in the eye of the beholder
4. Flaws, angry expressions, and denials that rub the viewer the wrong way
5. Believing that the ugliest or most flawed suspect is guilty of sinister death.
6. Revulsion toward an innocent person in contrast to a cool-appearing perpetrator who doesn't act the part of a torture-killer.
7. Deciding on the person being accused was the perpetrator the crime sans facts that would indicate guilt.
8. Guilty people putting on an academy-winning award performance on why they couldn't possibly be the perpetrator
9. Jurors who feel they must find the person who most likely was the killer.
10. Accused persons who seem above the fray
11. Failure to follow the clues accurately.​

Eye Witness Testimony by Elizabeth Loftus plays a huge factor
Utilizing the Reid Technique for interrogations was a biggie.
Junk science like arson patterns

When you look at how old some of these cases are, you can see why there are issues.

 

[Crepitus]

I don't have a problem putting some criminals to death, as long as we know they are guilty. As soon as we can be sure that nobody has to say oops after an execution, I say fry them all. I have a problem with later discovering the dead guy really didn't do it.

If you find the guy with a head in his freezer, sure. Go ahead and off him asap. But it's gotta be just that clear cut.

 

[Disir]

no pun intended?

 

[rightwinger]

Amazing how many cases are cleared through DNA

 

[DGS49]

I am a hard-headed, blood-thirsty, vindictive Conservative, and I would abolish the Death Penalty totally if I were Emperor, to be replaced by Life - Without Parole ("L-WOP"). The reasons are manifest:

• Avoid killing an innocent person,
• Save the cost of the unending appeals through both state and federal courts,
• Cut off one source of funds for the ACLU (any time someone is threatened with actual execution),
• Avoid having the victims' families have to re-live their pain over and over again as the perp's appeals play out, sometimes for decades,
• Clarify the principle that the Justice System is not a vehicle for personal revenge,
• Stop making the Justice System look foolish for not being able to carry out a simple sentence.

But having eliminated the DP, I would insist that prisoners on L-WOP be housed separately from others, due to the fact that they have nothing to lose.

On the contrary, however, I oppose Governors taking it upon themselves to suspend the death penalty during their term(s). This is flouting the law and unacceptable. The best and only way to properly eliminate the death penalty is by legislation or Constitutional Amendment.

 

[Gdjjr]

Any of you ever watched the movie "12 Angry Men"? It's a pretty good depiction of a jury's different personalities and how their 'vote' is determined prejudicially (biased) and how others can be convinced to change their vote or not.

12 Angry Men is a 1957 American courtroom drama film directed by Sidney Lumet, adapted from a teleplay of the same name by Reginald Rose.[6][7] This courtroom drama tells the story of a jury of 12 men as they deliberate the conviction or acquittal of an 18-year old defendant[note 1] on the basis of reasonable doubt, forcing the jurors to question their morals and values.

12 Angry Men - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Personally, I'm all for the death penalty IF caught in the act (up close and personal punishment is my preference). After that it becomes a political tool for State prosecutors with the financing and power of the state for their political campaigning. And just once is too many times. Ego's have no place in "justice" as they tend to blind the accuser with 'acting' by prosecutors to set the tone.

 

[beautress]

Their work convinced me the death penalty was a bad idea.

I agree. Northwestern University's professor who led a group of postgrad students to reinvestigate DNA samples found a huge percentage of people on death row were actually innocent of the crime based on scientific proof that DNA is.

found a huge percentage of people on death row were actually innocent of the crime based on scientific proof that DNA is.

You have a link to the huge percentage?

My recollection tells me 16% of the people on death row were innocent of the crimes of which (for one reason or another), they were convicted. My paper on the study was written for a college course in or around 1981-1983. The initial findings of the graduate students I can't seem to find, and from what I read, the initial study was done in or around the middle 70s. I could easily be mistaken, and I don't even remember if the paper was in a consumer health class, or a anything-goes class on persuasive speaking for educators. After the evidence of DNA innocence was presented in the state of Illinois, Governor Ryan was so horrified that innocent men were sent to prison likely at a similar rate prior to that, and until a more fool-proof system than the judicial system back then was created, he was against capital punishment and did all he could to stop capital punishment in the State of Illinois. The story as I recall it does not match all that has happened since that tends to say 25% on Death Row didn't do the crime according to DNA, and now, I'm not sure, but the videos above pretty much give reasons why a court can err in sending someone to his death, and the several reasons how--error in memories, the perpetrator, unwilling to go to jail for the duration of his life, points finger at another person who becomes the suspect, a political order (since approximately, Watergate) that lets off the hook the offender who is running for an office; etc.

It's really late. I'll try to get back to searching in a couple of days. I'm just not finding the sources used in my coursework 42 years ago.

Governor Ryan was so horrified......

Governor Ryan was a crooked ****.
He did it to try to save his own skin.

Crook or not, if saving their own skin makes them make one good decision in their life, he saved the state of Illinois from sending 16 innocent people per 100 accused and sentenced to death, from 16 wrongful deaths against the state. I think for lesser crimes a whole lot of lying goes along. A divorced woman seeking real revenge on her spouse can create anger in others by making sure to implicate her ex by accusing him of abusing his daughter 8 years earlier when she was 6 of sexual abuse. This really pissed off the cops, prosecutors and judges in the area who cannot abide anyone who'd hurt a minor child, ruining them socially, mentally, and physically for life. So with no DNA, half a dozen concealed notes from investigators who said a conviction would be impossible, a friend of my brother's was sentenced to 6 years in prison and served 5 full years, and he did absolutely nothing. The daughter recanted when she left her mother's home one month after he was incarcerated. The mother had promised her a car and other benefits if she testified she was molested at age 6, which is young enough to piss off everyone who heard it, just like the crazy woman in the McMartin preschool rape trial did, and in that case, she raised the false story about one of the McMartin Preschool caregivers (a male) of seducing her child to cover for her boyfriend who raped the kid. They threw the caregiver into prison, turned all the families over to "counselling" which resulted in "counsellors" convincing children to testify that the employe had molested them, complete with details they were to furnish. This went on for 10 kids with numerous recantations by the children who were "coached" by counsellors. There wasn't one scrap of evidence against the McMartin's employe for 10 years (he was the McMartin's son), for 10 years, so without exoneration of any kind, they let the McMartin son go into a world that hated his guts, because at the same time, it was announced that the accuser had schizophrenia and had numerous previous accusations that got her attention she craved to make up for her failure to take her meds that controlled her condition when she did. Her child finally pointed the finger at the true perpetrator, but the prosecutors weren't ready to admit their mistake in the rush to judgment against the McMartins, whose business they destroyed. It's too bad for my brother's friend who is now 75, lives in squallor, and his only joy in life is going to American Legion, where they know he is a Vietnam War Hero who was sent home on a guerney to a hospital where they sewed up his upper back that was said the injury would have killed anybody else. Oh, and now, at age 75, he gets to report to the authorities once a month that he is still living at such-and-such an address or has moved elsewhere, among other things. He endured counselling from people who condescended to "teach" him ways of overcoming his sex drive when around little girls, and when the state changes his counsellor frequently, he gets to go through any bad feelings they may have against a sex offender, especially if they were counsellors because they had been abused as kids and hate all perpetrators. In their eyes, he is a pervert and perpetrator of heinous acts if he weren't in their "care." It's too easy to turn a good man into a sex offender by evening a score about something else, say for example, property rights, a bank account, cars the "perpetrator" had, and all his possessions and bank/stock accounts when he goes to jail after he is sentenced, which happens 100% of the time in some states who particularly hate child sex abusers.

 

[Gdjjr]

but the prosecutors weren't ready to admit their mistake

Because they are, first and last, politicians and we are living proof that politicians don't care about anything other than ill perceived power.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Their work convinced me the death penalty was a bad idea.

I agree. Northwestern University's professor who led a group of postgrad students to reinvestigate DNA samples found a huge percentage of people on death row were actually innocent of the crime based on scientific proof that DNA is.

found a huge percentage of people on death row were actually innocent of the crime based on scientific proof that DNA is.

You have a link to the huge percentage?

My recollection tells me 16% of the people on death row were innocent of the crimes of which (for one reason or another), they were convicted. My paper on the study was written for a college course in or around 1981-1983. The initial findings of the graduate students I can't seem to find, and from what I read, the initial study was done in or around the middle 70s. I could easily be mistaken, and I don't even remember if the paper was in a consumer health class, or a anything-goes class on persuasive speaking for educators. After the evidence of DNA innocence was presented in the state of Illinois, Governor Ryan was so horrified that innocent men were sent to prison likely at a similar rate prior to that, and until a more fool-proof system than the judicial system back then was created, he was against capital punishment and did all he could to stop capital punishment in the State of Illinois. The story as I recall it does not match all that has happened since that tends to say 25% on Death Row didn't do the crime according to DNA, and now, I'm not sure, but the videos above pretty much give reasons why a court can err in sending someone to his death, and the several reasons how--error in memories, the perpetrator, unwilling to go to jail for the duration of his life, points finger at another person who becomes the suspect, a political order (since approximately, Watergate) that lets off the hook the offender who is running for an office; etc.

It's really late. I'll try to get back to searching in a couple of days. I'm just not finding the sources used in my coursework 42 years ago.

Governor Ryan was so horrified......

Governor Ryan was a crooked ****.
He did it to try to save his own skin.

Crook or not, if saving their own skin makes them make one good decision in their life, he saved the state of Illinois from sending 16 innocent people per 100 accused and sentenced to death, from 16 wrongful deaths against the state. I think for lesser crimes a whole lot of lying goes along. A divorced woman seeking real revenge on her spouse can create anger in others by making sure to implicate her ex by accusing him of abusing his daughter 8 years earlier when she was 6 of sexual abuse. This really pissed off the cops, prosecutors and judges in the area who cannot abide anyone who'd hurt a minor child, ruining them socially, mentally, and physically for life. So with no DNA, half a dozen concealed notes from investigators who said a conviction would be impossible, a friend of my brother's was sentenced to 6 years in prison and served 5 full years, and he did absolutely nothing. The daughter recanted when she left her mother's home one month after he was incarcerated. The mother had promised her a car and other benefits if she testified she was molested at age 6, which is young enough to piss off everyone who heard it, just like the crazy woman in the McMartin preschool rape trial did, and in that case, she raised the false story about one of the McMartin Preschool caregivers (a male) of seducing her child to cover for her boyfriend who raped the kid. They threw the caregiver into prison, turned all the families over to "counselling" which resulted in "counsellors" convincing children to testify that the employe had molested them, complete with details they were to furnish. This went on for 10 kids with numerous recantations by the children who were "coached" by counsellors. There wasn't one scrap of evidence against the McMartin's employe for 10 years (he was the McMartin's son), for 10 years, so without exoneration of any kind, they let the McMartin son go into a world that hated his guts, because at the same time, it was announced that the accuser had schizophrenia and had numerous previous accusations that got her attention she craved to make up for her failure to take her meds that controlled her condition when she did. Her child finally pointed the finger at the true perpetrator, but the prosecutors weren't ready to admit their mistake in the rush to judgment against the McMartins, whose business they destroyed. It's too bad for my brother's friend who is now 75, lives in squallor, and his only joy in life is going to American Legion, where they know he is a Vietnam War Hero who was sent home on a guerney to a hospital where they sewed up his upper back that was said the injury would have killed anybody else. Oh, and now, at age 75, he gets to report to the authorities once a month that he is still living at such-and-such an address or has moved elsewhere, among other things. He endured counselling from people who condescended to "teach" him ways of overcoming his sex drive when around little girls, and when the state changes his counsellor frequently, he gets to go through any bad feelings they may have against a sex offender, especially if they were counsellors because they had been abused as kids and hate all perpetrators. In their eyes, he is a pervert and perpetrator of heinous acts if he weren't in their "care." It's too easy to turn a good man into a sex offender by evening a score about something else, say for example, property rights, a bank account, cars the "perpetrator" had, and all his possessions and bank/stock accounts when he goes to jail after he is sentenced, which happens 100% of the time in some states who particularly hate child sex abusers.

Crook or not, if saving their own skin makes them make one good decision in their life,

No, he just added another bad decision on top of the previous ones.

he saved the state of Illinois from sending 16 innocent people per 100 accused and sentenced to death,

Fake statistics are cool!