The Fossil Fuel Industry Misinformation Campaign

[Blues Man]

Did you not look at the article to which I linked? Tritium can be made in fusion reactors simply by adding lithium to the chamber walls.

Untested and unknown how much can be recovered.

then there is this

Once ITER finishes work in the 2050s, 5 kilograms or less of tritium will remain, according to the ITER projections. In a worst-case scenario, “it would appear that there is insufficient tritium to satisfy the fusion demand after ITER,” concedes Gianfranco Federici, head of fusion technology at the EuroFusion research agency.

 

[surada]

Zillions of dollars? How much is that? Government and journalistic investigations have uncovered hundreds of millions of dollars being spent ANNUALLY on their anti-mitigation PR campaigns.

I don't know. They have been funding emission studies at 10 million dollars a pop for 25-30 years at schools like Cal Tech, Stanford, GA Tech and MIT. I follow this stuff and it's so big I have lost track.

 

[Crick]

Untested and unknown how much can be recovered.

You really ought to read more. From the linked article.

After describing how they are going to test tritium production from lithium in modules added to the Tokamak vessel walls, the scientist in charges states "We estimate that, in ITER operating conditions, the maximum productive capacity of each of the test modules will be on the order of 20 milligrams per day. In a commercial tokamak, this production will be on par with the power of the machine—on the order of 150 grams per day and per gigawatt," says Luciano.

 

[Blues Man]

You really ought to read more. From the linked article.

After describing how they are going to test tritium production from lithium in modules added to the Tokamak vessel walls, the scientist in charges states "We estimate that, in ITER operating conditions, the maximum productive capacity of each of the test modules will be on the order of 20 milligrams per day. In a commercial tokamak, this production will be on par with the power of the machine—on the order of 150 grams per day and per gigawatt," says Luciano.

20mg a day but how much will a reactor use in a year?

150 grams a day produced to how many KG needed in a year to keep running?

Then there are the materials and containment issues.

There is no way any of us will see fusion power in our lifetimes and certainly not soon enough to do anything about reducing emissions

We could do it now by committing to next generation thorium rectors and have all the baseline power we could ever need 24/7/365 and be able to scale it up as needed

 

[Crick]

20mg a day but how much will a reactor use in a year?

??? The estimate was 150 grams per gigawatt.

150 grams a day produced to how many KG needed in a year to keep running?

Again, you REALLY ought to try reading the fucking articles people point you at. It wasn't that long.

"In the longer term, however, it will be necessary to develop solutions for the large-scale production of tritium. It is estimated that every fusion"​

And the amount being produced in fission reactors was 100 mg ANNUALLY in a 600 MW plant. The fusion process is estimated to product 328 TIMES as much.

Then there are the materials and containment issues.

What material and containment issues?

There is no way any of us will see fusion power in our lifetimes

"We" are seeing fusion power today. Several different fusion facilities have now repeatedly produced more power than they consumed.

and certainly not soon enough to do anything about reducing emissions

How long do you think it will take to reduce atmospheric CO2 to 300 ppm?

We could do it now by committing to next generation thorium rectors and have all the baseline power we could ever need 24/7/365 and be able to scale it up as needed

Fusion has advantages over fission but I have no objection to more fission reactors. But, as I'm sure you know, a lot of people don't share our enthusiasm for the technology.

 

[Crick]

??? The estimate was 150 grams per gigawatt.

I left out the info you were actually asking for. It is estimated that fusion plants will need 100 - 200 kg /year. A 5GW plant with the lithium modules in place would produce 750 gm/day which would be 273.75 kg annually. Looks like a win.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I left out the info you were actually asking for. It is estimated that fusion plants will need 100 - 200 kg /year. A 5GW plant with the lithium modules in place would produce 750 gm/day which would be 273.75 kg annually. Looks like a win.

Future fusion reactors will produce more tritium than they consume?

 

[Crick]

Future fusion reactors will produce more tritium than they consume?

Tritium: Changing lead into gold

In order to produce energy from the fusion of light atoms, nature offers a dozen of possible combinations. Only one is accessible in the current state of techn[...]

www.iter.org

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Tritium: Changing lead into gold

In order to produce energy from the fusion of light atoms, nature offers a dozen of possible combinations. Only one is accessible in the current state of techn[...]

www.iter.org

I saw. Now recheck your math.

 

[Crick]

150 gm / GW day = 0.15 kg / GW day

0.15 kg / GW day * 5 GW = 0.75 kg / day

0.75 kg / day * 365 days / year = 273.75 kg / year

If I've slipped, you'll have to show me.

Breeder reactors - by a completely different process - also produce more fuel than they use. So it's not a violation of principle.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

150 gm / GW day = 0.15 kg / GW day

0.15 kg / GW day * 5 GW = 0.75 kg / day

0.75 kg / day * 365 days / year = 273.75 kg / year

If I've slipped, you'll have to show me.

Breeder reactors - by a completely different process - also produce more fuel than they use. So it's not a violation of principle.

You're overthinking it. Fusion between tritium and deuterium will produce one helium and one neutron.

One neutron, in a perfect collision with lithium will produce one helium and one tritium.
What's the yield in the real world? I'm guessing it's less than 100%, not more than 100%.

Breeder reactors - by a completely different process - also produce more fuel than they use.

U-235, when hit by a neutron, will release 2 or 3 neutrons.

 

[Crick]

You're overthinking it. Fusion between tritium and deuterium will produce one helium and one neutron.

One neutron, in a perfect collision with lithium will produce one helium and one tritium.
What's the yield in the real world? I'm guessing it's less than 100%, not more than 100%.

U-235, when hit by a neutron, will release 2 or 3 neutrons.

That is not how they are producing tritium in the fusion reactor. Read the freaking article.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

That is not how they are producing tritium in the fusion reactor. Read the freaking article.

I read the fucking article.

When a deuterium nucleus fuses with a tritium nucleus inside of the fusion plasma, protons and neutrons are recombined into one helium atom and one neutron. The electric charge of the helium atom causes it to remain trapped within the magnetic cage that confines the plasma. The neutron, on the other hand, escapes at high speed and strikes the vacuum vessel walls, heating water that circulates under pressure and initiating a process that—in future reactors—will create electricity.

Six experimental Test Blanket Modules containing lithium will be mounted inside the ITER vacuum vessel to test tritium breeding concepts.
The neutron can serve another purpose, however. When it strikes an atom of lithium-6(2) it disrupts its building blocks (3 protons and 4 neutrons) and reorganizes them into one atom of helium (2 protons, 2 neutrons) and one atom of tritium (1 proton, 2 neutrons) while at the same time liberating energy.

You're welcome.

 

[Crick]

I read the fucking article.

When a deuterium nucleus fuses with a tritium nucleus inside of the fusion plasma, protons and neutrons are recombined into one helium atom and one neutron. The electric charge of the helium atom causes it to remain trapped within the magnetic cage that confines the plasma. The neutron, on the other hand, escapes at high speed and strikes the vacuum vessel walls, heating water that circulates under pressure and initiating a process that—in future reactors—will create electricity.

Six experimental Test Blanket Modules containing lithium will be mounted inside the ITER vacuum vessel to test tritium breeding concepts.
The neutron can serve another purpose, however. When it strikes an atom of lithium-6(2) it disrupts its building blocks (3 protons and 4 neutrons) and reorganizes them into one atom of helium (2 protons, 2 neutrons) and one atom of tritium (1 proton, 2 neutrons) while at the same time liberating energy.

You're welcome.

Not far enough

"We estimate that, in ITER operating conditions, the maximum productive capacity of each of the test modules will be on the order of 20 milligrams per day. In a commercial tokamak, this production will be on par with the power of the machine—on the order of 150 grams per day and per gigawatt," says Luciano​

​

YOU'RE welcome.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Not far enough

"We estimate that, in ITER operating conditions, the maximum productive capacity of each of the test modules will be on the order of 20 milligrams per day. In a commercial tokamak, this production will be on par with the power of the machine—on the order of 150 grams per day and per gigawatt," says Luciano​

​

YOU'RE welcome.

on the order of 150 grams per day and per gigawatt," says Luciano

You went too far.
One neutron can't magically produce more than one tritium.
If you're producing 150 grams, it's because you consumed at least 150 grams.
You should have quit while you were behind.

 

[Blues Man]

??? The estimate was 150 grams per gigawatt.

Again, you REALLY ought to try reading the fucking articles people point you at. It wasn't that long.

"In the longer term, however, it will be necessary to develop solutions for the large-scale production of tritium. It is estimated that every fusion"​

And the amount being produced in fission reactors was 100 mg ANNUALLY in a 600 MW plant. The fusion process is estimated to product 328 TIMES as much.


What material and containment issues?

"We" are seeing fusion power today. Several different fusion facilities have now repeatedly produced more power than they consumed.

How long do you think it will take to reduce atmospheric CO2 to 300 ppm?

Fusion has advantages over fission but I have no objection to more fission reactors. But, as I'm sure you know, a lot of people don't share our enthusiasm for the technology.

There has not been a sustained fusion reaction

We have no materials that can handle the temperatures we don't know if a tokamak can contain a sustained fusion reaction.

You're talking like this is a forgone conclusion when we are nowhere near being able to do this if ever.

 

[Crick]

There has not been a sustained fusion reaction

Fusion reactors don't sustain reactions. They are a series of small fusion reactions acting on tiny pellets of fuel. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang...

We have no materials that can handle the temperatures

That's why fusion reactors have always usee magnetic containment

we don't know if a tokamak can contain a sustained fusion reaction.

Fusion reactions have been repeatedly performed in Tokamaks that have produced net power without any loss in containment which, as I just noted, is magnetic.

You're talking like this is a forgone conclusion when we are nowhere near being able to do this if ever.

I'm certainly no expert, but you don't appear to know enough to be able to voice any sort of meaningful opinion on the matter.

 

[Blues Man]

Fusion reactors don't sustain reactions. They are a series of small fusion reactions acting on tiny pellets of fuel. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang...

That's why fusion reactors have always usee magnetic containment

Fusion reactions have been repeatedly performed in Tokamaks that have produced net power without any loss in containment which, as I just noted, is magnetic.

I'm certainly no expert, but you don't appear to know enough to be able to voice any sort of meaningful opinion on the matter.

And that magnetic containment is dependent on materials that cannot withstand the high temperatures in a sustained fusion reaction. Not to mention any type of other energy artifacts that may be produced. And the margin of error is minuscule even the slightest fluctuation of the magnetic field will allow the plasma to escape and damage the reactor vessel

Fusion is not going to be the answer to our emission problem in fact we could have near emission less power generation at scale far faster with a recommitment to next generation nuclear reactors in just a couple decades if we had the will

The pie in the sky of fusion is not going to help us in the timeframe needed

 

[Crick]

And that magnetic containment is dependent on materials that cannot withstand the high temperatures in a sustained fusion reaction.

No it is not. And as I just explained, fusion reactors do not create "sustained" fusion reactions.

IF magnetic containment fails, NO material can withstand the temperatures in a fusion reaction. But the magnetic bottle was perfected back in the early 1970s and the first laser-induced fusion reaction took place in 1974. So researchers have been creating fusion reactions inside magnetic containment without fail for 50 years.

Not to mention any type of other energy artifacts that may be produced.

Energy artifacts? What might that be? Sputtering from dirty fuel?

And the margin of error is minuscule even the slightest fluctuation of the magnetic field will allow the plasma to escape and damage the reactor vessel

How large IS the margin of error? Again, researchers have been creating fusion reactions without containment failure for 50 years.

Fusion is not going to be the answer to our emission problem

I disagree. I think within our children's lifetime it will supply virtually all the power used by humankind.

in fact we could have near emission less power generation at scale far faster with a recommitment to next generation nuclear reactors in just a couple decades if we had the will

And were willing to take the risk of catastrophic failure, disastrous radiation exposures and handling wastes that will be dangerously radioactive for millennia. Don't get me wrong, overall, I favor fission power over fossil fuel, but I REALLY favor fusion over fission.

The pie in the sky of fusion is not going to help us in the timeframe needed

No, it won't. That's why we need wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, wave, tide, OTEC and fission.

See: Timeline of nuclear fusion - Wikipedia

 

[Blues Man]

No it is not. And as I just explained, fusion reactors do not create "sustained" fusion reactions.

IF magnetic containment fails, NO material can withstand the temperatures in a fusion reaction. But the magnetic bottle was perfected back in the early 1970s and the first laser-induced fusion reaction took place in 1974. So researchers have been creating fusion reactions inside magnetic containment without fail for 50 years.

Energy artifacts? What might that be? Sputtering from dirty fuel?

How large IS the margin of error? Again, researchers have been creating fusion reactions without containment failure for 50 years.

I disagree. I think within our children's lifetime it will supply virtually all the power used by humankind.

And were willing to take the risk of catastrophic failure, disastrous radiation exposures and handling wastes that will be dangerously radioactive for millennia. Don't get me wrong, overall, I favor fission power over fossil fuel, but I REALLY favor fusion over fission.

No, it won't. That's why we need wind, solar, hydro, wave, tide, OTEC and fission.

there has never been any sustained reaction.

Do you really think a microsecond reaction is the same thing as fusion to scale and a constantly running reaction for years at a time?