The end of the EURO???

[Neubarth]

Toro is going to lose his butt shorting the pound.

The Depression is wavering in England/ It remains to be seen which way things will go.

In the US we are very close to eliminating this tidal wave of increasing unemployment (the real determiner of DEPRESSION). Things could turn around in the next six months. If Toro is a pessimist, he might make money in the near future, but I have hope that the world can crawl out of this mess we are in.

 

[Toro]

And Toro is going to lose his butt shorting the pound.

My cost is $1.49. I've made quite a bit thus far.

Its going to $1.40, maybe $1.35 or lower.

 

[Big Fitz]

Ugh... this is going to be a disaster of Biblical proportions if the Euro goes down in flames. US exports are going to suffer badly. Sure the dollar will benefit, but not as much as the Pound or hell even the Ruble in comparison. Probably the Canadian and Australian dollars as well... and that's not saying much. Gold's going to skyrocket, oil's going to be turbulant purely because demand will drop as world currencies devalue at relatively the same rate from what I see.

 

[Munin]

The Germans pay Turks to do the work

Wrong: they mostly pay the poles and other East Europeans to do their work

Turks mostly do not come into the picture (unless you mean the minority of Turks living in Germany)

 

[Munin]

Germany and France are next.

So much for OPEC trading in Euros.

Actually, those two are the strongest.

Ireland, Portugal, Italy and Spain are most frequently mentioned.

Right, they're the strongest....Which tells us all just how deeply in trouble the Euro and EU are.

No, I m not sure you re right here: Germany, France and other major European countries can easely carry the burden of these countries. (loan them money)

The economy of Greece is almost nothing compared to the economy strength of the EU (not even 1%) and the other countries mentioned do not even compare to greece at all (they are way more competitive and their debt is much much lower in % compared to the national gdp). The problem is speculation: people are gambling against the Euro. Just like they can gamble against the dollar: for example, compare the debt of greece with the dept of California.

Will the $ disintegrate because of californian debt? I think not, neither will the Euro disintegrate because of debt. The only reason the Euro can disintegrate is if the National governemts decide this is the case.

Germany will never do this because if the Euro would be gone than Germany would probably have the strongest National Currency in the world (at this time it has the most trustworthy & reliable economy in the world, it also has no currency manipulation like China and almost no debt). A strong currency for Germany would probably be the worst thing to happen, germany is the second largest exporter of the world (and no, the US is not number 1). Germany is probably doing this on purpose, I m sure a lot of big german companies are making huge profits now because of the lower Euro.

Export in China becomes cheaper = more profits (Yaun is linked to the $ and Germany is the biggest exporter to China)
Export in the US becomes cheaper = more profits (Euro is devaluated to the $)

Economy of Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Germany is playing a brilliant game for its own economy (lower Euro currency value)

 

[peter]

The economy of Greece is almost nothing compared to the economy strength of the EU (not even 1%) and the other countries mentioned do not even compare to greece at all (they are way more competitive and their debt is much much lower in % compared to the national gdp). The problem is speculation: people are gambling against the Euro. Just like they can gamble against the dollar: for example, compare the debt of greece with the dept of California.

Europeans ought to abide criteria as budget deficit and debt ratio. They failed to do so and now they were proven unreliable and unable to control debt. I don't think this will change. So euro won't be so strong as before. Speculation or not, say goodbye to strong euro.

Will the $ disintegrate because of californian debt? I think not, neither will the Euro disintegrate because of debt. The only reason the Euro can disintegrate is if the National governemts decide this is the case.

You compare US and EU? I think it's unfortunate. EU is complex and unreliable. It can't handle Greece properly. EU politicians quarrel and then react hastily. Besides, have they solved the debt problem (of Greece) ?

Germany will never do this because if the Euro would be gone than Germany would probably have the strongest National Currency in the world (at this time it has the most trustworthy & reliable economy in the world, it also has no currency manipulation like China and almost no debt). A strong currency for Germany would probably be the worst thing to happen, germany is the second largest exporter of the world (and no, the US is not number 1). Germany is probably doing this on purpose, I m sure a lot of big german companies are making huge profits now because of the lower Euro.

I don't think Germany would have strong currency. It's smaller country than the whole 16 countries, which have euro. Euro was meant to be the next world reserve currency. It seems, that expectations were quite higher and that Europeans failed to meet them.

 

[Annie]

The Euro is in a free-fall, and governments will fall, the only question is whether or not they fall peacefully. The problem isn’t just Greece, the problem isn’t just Portugal, or even Spain…all three of which are basket cases.

The real problem is Germany... how long do you think the Germans will be willing to accept massive bailouts of their EU brethren, working twice as hard, suffering under a stifling taxation burden… to support the failed and corrupt socialist experiments of Greece, Portugal and Spain?

It's not just the Euro or Germany or even Greece:

Are we looking at a European meltdown?

...What it all adds up to is that Europe is dead. It's dead as an idea, that is. Many of my friends in the Philippines, Thailand and Indonesia, for example, would say they are "Asian" in addition to their own country nationality. But there isn't anyone, other than some bureaucrats in Brussels, who will define themselves as "European" even secondarily.

The euro has attained none of the attachment that Germany had for the mark or France for the franc. De Gaulle, that great statesman, turns out to be right: it's a Europe des pays. It's not united.

The American columnist George Will put it well enough: "The European Union has a flag no one salutes, an anthem no one sings, a president no one can name, a Parliament... no one other than its members wants to have powers... capital... of coagulated bureaucracy..."

It could never be like the US because our citizens mostly came to get away from somewhere and gladly shed a lot of their old habits and language (though not quite as many as we once thought). It became, no doubt about it, one country. None of the EU folk have opted to get away from anything. The French can't imagine anything other than being French, and it's the same throughout that far west tip of Asia. The present crisis was bound to happen.

The Greek crisis was in fact a European crisis. Theoretically, members of the euro zone were meant to stay within a three per cent deficit zone but there was no way to enforce it. It was more convenient to hide the problem and hope it went away. The bailout of Greece was to save the German and French banks but now the banks are sweating and could totter....

Read more: Are we looking at a European meltdown? Are we looking at a European meltdown?

 

[peter]

Europe was never bound together. European politicians always acted selfishly. Unless this changes ...

 

[Munin]

Europeans ought to abide criteria as budget deficit and debt ratio. They failed to do so and now they were proven unreliable and unable to control debt. I don't think this will change. So euro won't be so strong as before. Speculation or not, say goodbye to strong euro.

The problem is that there is no European deficit controll or a European government that has controll over the deficits of National countries. The Greec issue is one that is linked to Greece as a country (it started with Greec government loans getting too expensive). This is the whole issue of the EU: the European Union is caught in the mid of a transition with this economic crisis (transition between National governments and the European government). It is likely that the crisis will speed up this transition and create a European financial government that can decide over National government Budgets (a highly sensitive issue).

There still is no such thing as Europeans, there are only Frenchmen, Germans, ... in Europe: that s the whole issue.

Even debt is so much different between different countries in the EU, did you know that Germany has a law that forbids the government to make large debt (indicated in a certain percentage of GDP)? Germany wants to implement that law into the European "Lawsystem" (Germany is the largest financial contributor to the EU).

Will the $ disintegrate because of californian debt? I think not, neither will the Euro disintegrate because of debt. The only reason the Euro can disintegrate is if the National governemts decide this is the case.

You compare US and EU? I think it's unfortunate. EU is complex and unreliable. It can't handle Greece properly. EU politicians quarrel and then react hastily. Besides, have they solved the debt problem (of Greece) ?

The EU already handled Greece, but they didn't do it at the right time (it had to be done much earlier so Greece couldn't infect other Euro-countries).

I don't think Germany would have strong currency. It's smaller country than the whole 16 countries, which have euro. Euro was meant to be the next world reserve currency. It seems, that expectations were quite higher and that Europeans failed to meet them.

They did meet the expectations (see how the Euro beats the current world reserve currency $ and still does, the Euro is still higher than the $ even if it s less than previously), all that happened now is a blow to the confidence of the Euro. Some people realized that it s not perfect, maybe when the panik ends people will realize that no currency is and can be perfect ...

 

[Neubarth]

They did meet the expectations (see how the Euro beats the current world reserve currency $ and still does, the Euro is still higher than the $ even if it s less than previously), all that happened now is a blow to the confidence of the Euro. Some people realized that it s not perfect, maybe when the panik ends people will realize that no currency is and can be perfect ...

The value of a currency has absolutely no relationship to how it is perceived as an international currency of exchange. The exchange rate of a currency is determined by a multitude of factors with the major one being the productivity of the country.

When it comes to manufacturing, the United States is the leading country in the world. Japan and China are essentially tied for second producing about half of what the United States does.

If the United States want to undercut Europe or Japan for the sale of product, we can do things to lower the value of our currency, thus making our export prices lower. The rest of the world is afraid of that, and tries to keep the Dollar at the same value so they can sell their product. Right now Europe is trying to lower the Euro so they can sell more Volkswagens and Fiats.

 

[peter]

Europeans ought to abide criteria as budget deficit and debt ratio. They failed to do so and now they were proven unreliable and unable to control debt. I don't think this will change. So euro won't be so strong as before. Speculation or not, say goodbye to strong euro.

The problem is that there is no European deficit controll or a European government that has controll over the deficits of National countries. The Greec issue is one that is linked to Greece as a country (it started with Greec government loans getting too expensive). This is the whole issue of the EU: the European Union is caught in the mid of a transition with this economic crisis (transition between National governments and the European government). It is likely that the crisis will speed up this transition and create a European financial government that can decide over National government Budgets (a highly sensitive issue).

There still is no such thing as Europeans, there are only Frenchmen, Germans, ... in Europe: that s the whole issue.

Even debt is so much different between different countries in the EU, did you know that Germany has a law that forbids the government to make large debt (indicated in a certain percentage of GDP)? Germany wants to implement that law into the European "Lawsystem" (Germany is the largest financial contributor to the EU).

Maybe "European financial government" will solve the problem. However, it falls short of "United states of Europe". I still think Europeans want to create the most complex system with a lot of flaws. We already know the solution - federal government with power in foreign affairs, economy and defense ... Otherwise, I'm not sure if it's worth the effort (regardless of non-existence of european attitude).

 

[Munin]

The value of a currency has absolutely no relationship to how it is perceived as an international currency of exchange. The exchange rate of a currency is determined by a multitude of factors with the major one being the productivity of the country.

When it comes to manufacturing, the United States is the leading country in the world. Japan and China are essentially tied for second producing about half of what the United States does.

If the United States want to undercut Europe or Japan for the sale of product, we can do things to lower the value of our currency, thus making our export prices lower. The rest of the world is afraid of that, and tries to keep the Dollar at the same value so they can sell their product. Right now Europe is trying to lower the Euro so they can sell more Volkswagens and Fiats.

No I disagree strongly with that:

The US $ being a reserve currency is a result of a strong and STABLE $ currency in the past (post WWII period, gold-standard: Gold standard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), this is in a period when the $ was aught to be as reliable as gold. This reliability of a currency is reflected in its value (You can see this if you compare your currency with another currency: for example the dollar with the EURO or the dollar with the pound or ... .)

Now the $ is under pressure of losing its reserve currency status (because of its drop in value), this could be achieved by returning to the gold standard (highly unlikely) or by the creation of a new reserve currency. The weakeness of the $ is directly related to the "pressure" its under as a reserve currency (of loosing that reserve currency status).

The Euro being more valuable indicates that ranked higher than the $, it reflects the printing of new money by the FED that weaken the $, the big american debt, ... .

 

[Neubarth]

The value of a currency has absolutely no relationship to how it is perceived as an international currency of exchange. The exchange rate of a currency is determined by a multitude of factors with the major one being the productivity of the country.

When it comes to manufacturing, the United States is the leading country in the world. Japan and China are essentially tied for second producing about half of what the United States does.

If the United States want to undercut Europe or Japan for the sale of product, we can do things to lower the value of our currency, thus making our export prices lower. The rest of the world is afraid of that, and tries to keep the Dollar at the same value so they can sell their product. Right now Europe is trying to lower the Euro so they can sell more Volkswagens and Fiats.

No I disagree strongly with that:

The US $ being a reserve currency is a result of a strong and STABLE $ currency in the past (post WWII period, gold-standard: Gold standard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), this is in a period when the $ was aught to be as reliable as gold. This reliability of a currency is reflected in its value (You can see this if you compare your currency with another currency: for example the dollar with the EURO or the dollar with the pound or ... .)

Now the $ is under pressure of losing its reserve currency status (because of its drop in value), this could be achieved by returning to the gold standard (highly unlikely) or by the creation of a new reserve currency. The weakeness of the $ is directly related to the "pressure" its under as a reserve currency (of loosing that reserve currency status).

The Euro being more valuable indicates that ranked higher than the $, it reflects the printing of new money by the FED that weaken the $, the big american debt, ... .

What you are posting is total gibberish. The FED does not print money. Why do idiots constantly say that? Gold Standard? Talk about 19th century stupidity. That makes me laugh. There is not enough available gold in the world to back the dollar, much less any other major currency. I favor the Corn standard. We produce a lot of it, and it will always be in demand.

We could expand that to "The American Productivity Standard." It is our productivity that has made the US the leading economic power in the world. As long as we are productive, we will retain that status and people will buy our products.

Nincompoops always talk about "reserve currency status" but there is no significance to that. The reality is that currencies exchange between countries all of the time. They do not have to convert them to dollars first. A Mexican bank can change their pesos into Brazilian Reals without any consideration of the American Dollar. A hundred years ago they used to mark the transaction in Dollars for accounting sake. It is no longer an accepted practice. Sooooooo??????? Using computers to facilitate exchange of foreign currencies is practical. It does not harm us for that to happen. So why do nincompoops constantly talk about something that is out of date. The answer is that they do not have the slightest idea what they are talking about. Dumb de Dumb Dumb. DUMB!

It does not matter how money is exchanged. The important thing is that as long as we are on the "American Productivity Standard" our money will be accepted globally. With it the people of the world can buy CORN. By accepting American Dollars they can sell product to us so they can cut down on their serious unemployment problems overseas.

 

[Munin]

What you are posting is total gibberish. The FED does not print money. Why do idiots constantly say that? Gold Standard? Talk about 19th century stupidity. That makes me laugh. There is not enough available gold in the world to back the dollar, much less any other major currency. I favor the Corn standard. We produce a lot of it, and it will always be in demand.

We could expand that to "The American Productivity Standard." It is our productivity that has made the US the leading economic power in the world. As long as we are productive, we will retain that status and people will buy our products.

Nincompoops always talk about "reserve currency status" but there is no significance to that. The reality is that currencies exchange between countries all of the time. They do not have to convert them to dollars first. A Mexican bank can change their pesos into Brazilian Reals without any consideration of the American Dollar. A hundred years ago they used to mark the transaction in Dollars for accounting sake. It is no longer an accepted practice. Sooooooo??????? Using computers to facilitate exchange of foreign currencies is practical. It does not harm us for that to happen. So why do nincompoops constantly talk about something that is out of date. The answer is that they do not have the slightest idea what they are talking about. Dumb de Dumb Dumb. DUMB!

It does not matter how money is exchanged. The important thing is that as long as we are on the "American Productivity Standard" our money will be accepted globally. With it the people of the world can buy CORN. By accepting American Dollars they can sell product to us so they can cut down on their serious unemployment problems overseas.

My reference to the gold standard is to give an example of how reliable a currency SHOULD be and when the EURO is kept at a higher valuation then the $, then this indicates that the EURO gets a position in which it can achieve a reserve currency status.

The reserve currency status is something that gives a nation a lot of benifits: all recourses are put into $ value, extra economy boost through foreign trade of other nations with $, ... (and a lot more major benifits).

Nations are forced to buy recourses in $ value (unless they make seperate deals with other nations: but there are only very few cases like this), ...

As for corn: Corn doesn't have the same high value as gold, you actually need to be able to pay with it as well. You can not imagine a banker storing thousands of tons of Corn ... Not to mention that Corn is not something that keeps at the same value, it decays (which means that it loses all of its value).


And concerning the FED and printing money:

The U.S. government has a technology, called a printing press (or, today, its electronic equivalent), that allows it to produce as many U.S. dollars as it wishes at essentially no cost.

Can the Fed Really Just Print Money? -- Seeking Alpha Today it s even easier to create more money as in this computer age you don't need a piece of paper to represent it, you can simply do it by having some computer represent it for you ...




American productivity standard...

You must still be living in the "Ford" age, at that time this assumtion was true ... But today we re living in a "Chinese productivity age + american consumption age", American workers produce almost nothing (quantity) in comparison of what the Chinese workers produce. Maybe go to your shop and look for something "made in the US", compare that with the things in your shop that are "made in China": then talk to me about what exactly the americans produce ... . Productivity is mostly also translated into exports, a nation that produces a lot usually also has a lot of export (because its internal consumption for the goods produced is easely met by the big production of this country).

If anything this is an "american innovation" age (quality + new stuff), especially when looking at computers and other electronic/software related products. This is the US main advantage, not "productivity".

 

[georgephillip]

"The Greeks Get It."

So says Chris Hedges in one of his latest posts:

"...(t)he right-wind government of Kostas Karamanlis, which preceded the current government of George Papandreou, did what Republicans did under George W. Bush. They looted taxpayer funds to enrich their corporate masters and bankrupt the country.

"They stole hundreds of millions of dollars from individual retirement and pension accounts slowly built up over years by citizens who had been honest and industrious.

"They used mass propaganda to make the population afraid of terrorists and surrender civil liberties, including habeas corpus.

"And while Bush and Karamanlis, along with the corporate criminal class they abetted, live in unparalleled luxury, ordinary working men and women are told they must endure even more pain and suffering to make amends.

"It is feudal rape..."

Hedges also gets it:

"Barack Obama is simply the latest face that masks the corporate state. His administration serves corporate interests, not ours.

"Obama, like Goldman Sachs or Citibank, does not want the public to see how the Federal Reserve Bank operates as a private account and ATM for Wall Street at our expense.

"He, too, has helped orchestrate the largest transference of wealth upwards in American history..."

 

[The Rabbi]

Nice way to spin the Greece crisis to a slap at the GOP.
In fact it is the state unions that are the problem. The gov't is paying out far too much in terms of salaries and benefits (especially retirement, which is at age 55 or something). Additionally business formation is putrid, taxes are high and often go uncollected, and the gov't is sprawling and puts its dead hand of regulation on everything.
In other words, pretty much where obama wants us to be in 2 years.

 

[Neubarth]

"The Greeks Get It."

So says Chris Hedges in one of his latest posts:

"...(t)he right-wind government of Kostas Karamanlis, which preceded the current government of George Papandreou, did what Republicans did under George W. Bush. They looted taxpayer funds to enrich their corporate masters and bankrupt the country.

"They stole hundreds of millions of dollars from individual retirement and pension accounts slowly built up over years by citizens who had been honest and industrious.

"They used mass propaganda to make the population afraid of terrorists and surrender civil liberties, including habeas corpus.

"And while Bush and Karamanlis, along with the corporate criminal class they abetted, live in unparalleled luxury, ordinary working men and women are told they must endure even more pain and suffering to make amends.

"It is feudal rape..."

Hedges also gets it:

"Barack Obama is simply the latest face that masks the corporate state. His administration serves corporate interests, not ours.

"Obama, like Goldman Sachs or Citibank, does not want the public to see how the Federal Reserve Bank operates as a private account and ATM for Wall Street at our expense.

"He, too, has helped orchestrate the largest transference of wealth upwards in American history..."

The end result is that this massive wave of corruption is destroying the whole world. We have got to use the death penalty for any form of government corruption even minor to stop this massive tidal wave of theft from the people.

If we do not do it through a legal process, we will see civil war break out all around the world. Governments need to be responsible to the people, not to the dollar.

I propose a constitutional convention to totally reform our courts and definition of punishment. Execution by firing squad or hanging willnot be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

We need to go to a trial before three judges as opposed to a retarded jury of our retarded peers (Like the OJ Simpson Jury).

After a finding of guilt, the defense attorney will have fifteen minutes to make an appeal. If not substantiated, the guilty party will be taken out behind the court house and shot in the head or hanged according to his or her wishes.

 

[Neubarth]

[

American productivity standard...

.... But today we re living in a "Chinese productivity age + american consumption age", American workers produce almost nothing (quantity) in comparison of what the Chinese workers produce. .

You have now moved into the number one place on this board for posting the stupidest nonsense. That position was previously held by Pinko, but you have soared above him in stupidity.

The United States manufacturing is twice that of China, you shithead. China's worker productivity is the lowest of industrial nations. Damn, they have Two Hundred Million unemployed. Those workers are not producing a damn thing.


Go read a little before coming back on this forum. Unbelievable stupidity! Damn! I mean DAMN!

 

[georgephillip]

Nice way to spin the Greece crisis to a slap at the GOP.
In fact it is the state unions that are the problem. The gov't is paying out far too much in terms of salaries and benefits (especially retirement, which is at age 55 or something). Additionally business formation is putrid, taxes are high and often go uncollected, and the gov't is sprawling and puts its dead hand of regulation on everything.
In other words, pretty much where obama wants us to be in 2 years.

Rabbi:

Would you agree "Throughout Europe and in fact throughout the world, tax collection is intensified to guarantee payments on bonds underwritten by (private) banks as devices for sucking the earned income out of the economy."

"These bonds are actually tantamount to the Privy Purse; they are direct feudal payments to an oligarchy of absolute rulers by divine right. They take precedence over all other obligations foreign or domestic.

"These bonds are usually tax exempt to induce rentiers to buy them because of the 'risk' they entail."

 

[The Rabbi]

Nice way to spin the Greece crisis to a slap at the GOP.
In fact it is the state unions that are the problem. The gov't is paying out far too much in terms of salaries and benefits (especially retirement, which is at age 55 or something). Additionally business formation is putrid, taxes are high and often go uncollected, and the gov't is sprawling and puts its dead hand of regulation on everything.
In other words, pretty much where obama wants us to be in 2 years.

Rabbi:

Would you agree "Throughout Europe and in fact throughout the world, tax collection is intensified to guarantee payments on bonds underwritten by (private) banks as devices for sucking the earned income out of the economy."

"These bonds are actually tantamount to the Privy Purse; they are direct feudal payments to an oligarchy of absolute rulers by divine right. They take precedence over all other obligations foreign or domestic.

"These bonds are usually tax exempt to induce rentiers to buy them because of the 'risk' they entail."

Since I am not a Marxist no, I do not agree with that statement.