The Elements and Traditions of the Passover Seder Point to Christ

[RWNJ]

No. I don't. If someone told me my faith was wrong, I'd either ignore them, or discuss it with them if they were willing. This is not about winning an argument. It is a sincere desire to bring the truth to others. Most people would be offended by this. That is not my fault. The fault lies with them. Because they have rejected the truth.

So again, you are demanding that people respect your faith, but you refuse to respect anyone else's faith.

That's why I don't give a flying fuck how offended you are.

I do respect their faith. I simply believe that they are wrong. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean you can't be respectful. But liberal snowflakes, like yourself, equate disagreeing with hate. Sucks to be you.

Telling someone their faith is wrong is in itself very disrespectful.

And you are in no position to call anyone a snowflake, Mr "I'm offended, and I demand an apology".

Deal with it.

I don't deal with hateful trolls. I destroy their arguments. You accuse me of being hateful, yet you are the hateful one. You are the one who is using profanity. YOU are the one who told me to take my Lord and Savior and shove Him up my butt. I dare you to say something similar to a Muslim. Let me know how that works out. But you would never have the balls to do so. You can only say such things from the safety of your keyboard. Sucks to be you.

Are you gonna cry about it, snowflake?

Here's a life lesson for you: You get what you give.

Tell you what, punk. I usually hang out at McAlister's deli in Huntsville, AL. Why don't you stop by sometime and we'll discuss it, if you have the balls to do so. I'm guessing you don't.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

So again, you are demanding that people respect your faith, but you refuse to respect anyone else's faith.

That's why I don't give a flying fuck how offended you are.

I do respect their faith. I simply believe that they are wrong. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean you can't be respectful. But liberal snowflakes, like yourself, equate disagreeing with hate. Sucks to be you.

Telling someone their faith is wrong is in itself very disrespectful.

And you are in no position to call anyone a snowflake, Mr "I'm offended, and I demand an apology".

Deal with it.

I don't deal with hateful trolls. I destroy their arguments. You accuse me of being hateful, yet you are the hateful one. You are the one who is using profanity. YOU are the one who told me to take my Lord and Savior and shove Him up my butt. I dare you to say something similar to a Muslim. Let me know how that works out. But you would never have the balls to do so. You can only say such things from the safety of your keyboard. Sucks to be you.

Are you gonna cry about it, snowflake?

Here's a life lesson for you: You get what you give.

Tell you what, punk. I usually hang out at McAlister's deli in Huntsville, AL. Why don't you stop by sometime and we'll discuss it, if you have the balls to do so. I'm guessing you don't.

Oooh. We've got an internet tough guy here!

 

[RWNJ]

I do respect their faith. I simply believe that they are wrong. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean you can't be respectful. But liberal snowflakes, like yourself, equate disagreeing with hate. Sucks to be you.

Telling someone their faith is wrong is in itself very disrespectful.

And you are in no position to call anyone a snowflake, Mr "I'm offended, and I demand an apology".

Deal with it.

I don't deal with hateful trolls. I destroy their arguments. You accuse me of being hateful, yet you are the hateful one. You are the one who is using profanity. YOU are the one who told me to take my Lord and Savior and shove Him up my butt. I dare you to say something similar to a Muslim. Let me know how that works out. But you would never have the balls to do so. You can only say such things from the safety of your keyboard. Sucks to be you.

Are you gonna cry about it, snowflake?

Here's a life lesson for you: You get what you give.

Tell you what, punk. I usually hang out at McAlister's deli in Huntsville, AL. Why don't you stop by sometime and we'll discuss it, if you have the balls to do so. I'm guessing you don't.

Oooh. We've got an internet tough guy here!

Stop by and find out. PUNK!

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Telling someone their faith is wrong is in itself very disrespectful.

And you are in no position to call anyone a snowflake, Mr "I'm offended, and I demand an apology".

Deal with it.

I don't deal with hateful trolls. I destroy their arguments. You accuse me of being hateful, yet you are the hateful one. You are the one who is using profanity. YOU are the one who told me to take my Lord and Savior and shove Him up my butt. I dare you to say something similar to a Muslim. Let me know how that works out. But you would never have the balls to do so. You can only say such things from the safety of your keyboard. Sucks to be you.

Are you gonna cry about it, snowflake?

Here's a life lesson for you: You get what you give.

Tell you what, punk. I usually hang out at McAlister's deli in Huntsville, AL. Why don't you stop by sometime and we'll discuss it, if you have the balls to do so. I'm guessing you don't.

Oooh. We've got an internet tough guy here!

Stop by and find out. PUNK!

Seriously, dude. Quit while you're behind.

You're making a fool of yourself.

 

[RWNJ]

I don't deal with hateful trolls. I destroy their arguments. You accuse me of being hateful, yet you are the hateful one. You are the one who is using profanity. YOU are the one who told me to take my Lord and Savior and shove Him up my butt. I dare you to say something similar to a Muslim. Let me know how that works out. But you would never have the balls to do so. You can only say such things from the safety of your keyboard. Sucks to be you.

Are you gonna cry about it, snowflake?

Here's a life lesson for you: You get what you give.

Tell you what, punk. I usually hang out at McAlister's deli in Huntsville, AL. Why don't you stop by sometime and we'll discuss it, if you have the balls to do so. I'm guessing you don't.

Oooh. We've got an internet tough guy here!

Stop by and find out. PUNK!

Seriously, dude. Quit while you're behind.

You're making a fool of yourself.

The only fool here is yourself. I'm sure others would agree. You're nothing but an attention whore. Tell you what. I can't put you on my ignore list, but I can and will ignore you. You are irrelevant. A pathetic, hateful troll. I'll even allow you to have the last word, since I know you so desperately desire it. Have at it. I'm done with your pathetic ass.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Are you gonna cry about it, snowflake?

Here's a life lesson for you: You get what you give.

Tell you what, punk. I usually hang out at McAlister's deli in Huntsville, AL. Why don't you stop by sometime and we'll discuss it, if you have the balls to do so. I'm guessing you don't.

Oooh. We've got an internet tough guy here!

Stop by and find out. PUNK!

Seriously, dude. Quit while you're behind.

You're making a fool of yourself.

The only fool here is yourself. I'm sure others would agree. You're nothing but an attention whore. Tell you what. I can't put you on my ignore list, but I can and will ignore you. You are irrelevant. A pathetic, hateful troll. I'll even allow you to have the last word, since I know you so desperately desire it. Have at it. I'm done with your pathetic ass.

This has been a meltdown for the ages.

By all means, ignore my posts. No skin off my back.

 

[Lysistrata]

Jews for Jesus is a Christian Evangelical organization dedicated to converting Jews.

I'm not one to argue with what someone claims to be, but I think you'll find that most Jews don't consider Jews for Jesus to be Jewish.

And why should their opinion matter? If a Jew becomes a Christian, it doesn't matter what Godless Jews think.

Jews are "Godless"? Do you realize how stupid this is?

 

[HaShev]

Problems with this OP:
1)the lamb is a bad thing on Passover=an Egyptian idol.
2) Isaiah 53 is about Israel Plural present past tense not singular fiture tense, and context says Israel is the servant in Isaiah's 14 times.
3) if you want Jesus to be part of the sedar then that is also problematic as per my post.
Where I stated:
The seder set with traditional "egg and bitter" can be seen as a focus, as per mythology on Ishtar (Easter) the Morning Star (lucifer) was born out of a fallen ISHTAR's (easter) "EGG". And the fallen star would make mankind "bitter" and poisonous like wormwood.
IN Conclusion: if Christians want to hijack Passover and claim Jesus in it, then they are admitting Jesus is Lucifer and changes holidays (as they claimed satan would) and we know the Bible telks us to passover this first born son-the fallen first messiah.

 

[irosie91]

All Christians should attend a Seder meal, preferably held by a completed Jew who can explain the symbolism as I outline below. It is a meal that Jesus would have conducted every year.

A little background first. The Passover is when the Jewish slaves of Egypt put the blood of a lamb over their door so that death passed over the house that night as the final plague on Egypt so they would free the Jews.

The Passover Seder is a Jewish ritual feast that marks the beginning of the Jewish holiday of Passover. The elements are symbols of events with the purpose allowing each generation to remember what occurred in the time of Moses. The Hebrew word Seder means “order.” The Passover meal has a specific order in which food is eaten, prayers are recited, and songs are sung. Each item on the Passover plate has a specific historical meaning related to the exodus of the Jews from Egypt and their freedom from slavery. Most of the elements are historical, and some are messianic.

Passover is also the day Jesus was crucified.

One of the elements is the shank bone of a lamb to symbolize the placement of blood over the doors in Egypt. John 1:29, Jesus is the lamb of God. His blood saves all who accept Him.

The instructions for the original Passover specified that the lamb’s bones could not be broken, another foreshadowing of Christ’s death as the prophecy of the death of Jesus would not have his bones broken. (Crucifixion requires the use of the legs to fill the lungs with air. If they wanted to speed things along the legs of the person being crucified were broken. The two crucified with Jesus had their legs broken, Jesus was dead when they got to him. Then his side was pierced to make sure.)

Matzoh is unleavened bread to remember when the fleeing Jews did not have time to let the bread rise. It is flat, pierced, and striped as an end product.

Isaiah 53:5

But He was pierced for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

Jesus was bruised, whipped and pierced.

Three matzoh are placed in a linen bag. Jews do not know why they place three in the bag. Christians recognize this as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

There are three pouches in the bag, one for each matzoh. The middle matzoh is broken in half. One half remains inside the bag, the other is wrapped in linin and hidden until the end of the meal. As stated earlier, no one knows why three. Some Jews believe they represent Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But they cannot explain why Isaac is broken. Christians recognize this as the broken body of Christ. The other half removed is wrapped in a linen cloth and hidden. Christians recognize this as the linen wrapped body placed into a tomb.

There are also four cups of wine used at various points during the Seder. Each of these glasses of wine has a name: the first glass is the “cup of sanctification.” The second is the “cup of judgment.” The third is the “cup of redemption.” And the fourth is the “cup of praise.” At the Last Supper Jesus took the first cup and promised His disciples that the next time He drank the fruit of the vine with them would be in the kingdom. Later in the Seder, Jesus took the third cup—the cup of redemption—and used that cup as a symbol of the New Covenant in His blood. Thus Jesus fulfilled the Passover symbolism and infused the whole feast with a new meaning.

At the end of the meal tradition has the children go and find the hidden half of matzoh. When it is found it is removed from the linen and the festivities can begin. Christians see this as the resurrection.

Jews, quite rightly, disagree.

Really? Jews are not Christians?
I'm going to have to rethink this, thanks for the mind boggling revelation.

Yes, Jews are not Christians.

And Christians are not Jews.

Yet again you display your ignorance on all topics.
I personally know four Jews who follow Jesus as the Messiah.

that's called "conversion to Christianity"

 

[irosie91]

Really? Jews are not Christians?
I'm going to have to rethink this, thanks for the mind boggling revelation.

Yes, Jews are not Christians.

And Christians are not Jews.

Where did you get that nonsense from? Anyone can be a Christian

It's either one or the other. One can't be both. This bizarre theory that a Jew can be a Christian or a Christian a Jew sounds like it was made up at one of the pointed-headed schools of Christian "theology" that spring up from time to time in the U.S. The "Christian" faith may have been weird in the past, but more and more of it seems these days to be dreamed up in the back of somebody's garage after a few beers and then somebody sticks the "Christian" label on it and tries to sell it.
"Hey, Jimmy Jo, I was thinkin".

Jews can be a Christian, but it does not mean they stop being Jews. Judaism is both a race and a religion. Jews who follow Jesus are called Messianic Jews, my friends prefer completed Jews.

No, Messianic Jews are Jews who follow a Messiah - for example, a large percentage of Lubavitchers believe the late Rebbe was the Moshiach.

not really------a few

 

[Weatherman2020]

Problems with this OP:
1)the lamb is a bad thing on Passover=an Egyptian idol.
2) Isaiah 53 is about Israel Plural present past tense not singular fiture tense, and context says Israel is the servant in Isaiah's 14 times.
3) if you want Jesus to be part of the sedar then that is also problematic as per my post.
Where I stated:
The seder set with traditional "egg and bitter" can be seen as a focus, as per mythology on Ishtar (Easter) the Morning Star (lucifer) was born out of a fallen ISHTAR's (easter) "EGG". And the fallen star would make mankind "bitter" and poisonous like wormwood.
IN Conclusion: if Christians want to hijack Passover and claim Jesus in it, then they are admitting Jesus is Lucifer and changes holidays (as they claimed satan would) and we know the Bible telks us to passover this first born son-the fallen first messiah.

So Abraham and the Law in Leviticus has the Jews offering an Egyptian idol to God?

You are one desperate dude on spin jobs and really really lousy at it.

 

[Weatherman2020]

No. It is not. Not anymore than it would be to tell a non Jew. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And I would never tell them they are going to hell. That is not a foregone conclusion. I simply state that Jesus is the Messiah. How is that insulting, other than to someone who rejects the truth? It is not intended to be offensive, unlike the comment you made. It is intended to save them from themselves.

By stating that, you are saying "My faith is correct, and your's is a lie"

You dont see how that is offensive?

No. I don't. If someone told me my faith was wrong, I'd either ignore them, or discuss it with them if they were willing. This is not about winning an argument. It is a sincere desire to bring the truth to others. Most people would be offended by this. That is not my fault. The fault lies with them. Because they have rejected the truth.

So again, you are demanding that people respect your faith, but you refuse to respect anyone else's faith.

That's why I don't give a flying fuck how offended you are.

I do respect their faith. I simply believe that they are wrong. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean you can't be respectful. But liberal snowflakes, like yourself, equate disagreeing with hate. Sucks to be you.

Telling someone their faith is wrong is in itself very disrespectful.

And you are in no position to call anyone a snowflake, Mr "I'm offended, and I demand an apology".

Deal with it.

Being insulted and whining and crying because someone's personal interpretation is different than your personal interpretation is the classic definition of snowflake.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Here's a statement endorsed by all four major Jewish denominations about "Hebrew Christianity" (or Jews for Jesus):

"Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not ... It deceptively uses the sacred symbols of Jewish observance ... as a cover to convert Jews to Christianity, a belief system antithetical to Judaism ... Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and the destiny of the Jewish people. They have crossed an unbridgeable chasm by accepting another religion. Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former co-religionists."

And the Jews who say this are the same ones who have rejected their Savior.

You are more than welcome to take your Savior, and shove him up your ass. We don't want him.

You are more than welcome to take your Savior, and shove him up your ass. We don't want him.

From the same person in this thread whining and crying he is insulted and hurt because of the OP.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Oh gee, color me shocked.
Dufus can't find one error in the OP.

And who the hell are you to determine what people's interpretations are?

There are countless errors in your OP. But that's beside the point.

Would you accept my "interpretation" of Jesus, if I claimed that he was a homosexual?

There are countless errors in your OP.

Post #116 and dufus still can't state one error in the OP.
Typical leftist liar.

Pointing out errors in your theology is entirely irrelevant to my point.

Post #120 and he can't back up his accusation the OP has errors.

Typical of the left to slander people with lies.

Ok, I'll give you one.

When you stated that "no one knows why there are three matzoh", that was a lie, and factually incorrect.

Happy now, fuckwit?

Here are multiple guesses on what the meaning of the three matzoh are.
That means I told the truth when I said no one knows for sure why.
Which also means you slandered me.
In the name of your religion.

I'm sure I can find more interpretations, this was a 2 minute search.

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/1702/jewish/The-Three-Matzot.htm

Finding new meaning in old rituals: The Passover seder, matzah and afikomen

 

[Weatherman2020]

Yet again you validate you are stupid in all topics.

A Jew born a Jew is a Jew until they die.

Sure. They are a Jew until they die.

But as soon as they start worshipping Jesus, they are no longer practicing the religion of Judaism.

Dufus doesn't know Jews can be any faith.

Fuckwit is trolling his own thread because he's butthurt.

Why don't you go to your local synagoge, and ask the Rabbi what he thinks of your little theories?

Shitforbrains doesn't know Jew is also a race of people.

You know that I'm a Jew, right?

Some Jew.
Posts on the Sabbath.

 

[irosie91]

Problems with this OP:
1)the lamb is a bad thing on Passover=an Egyptian idol.
2) Isaiah 53 is about Israel Plural present past tense not singular fiture tense, and context says Israel is the servant in Isaiah's 14 times.
3) if you want Jesus to be part of the sedar then that is also problematic as per my post.
Where I stated:
The seder set with traditional "egg and bitter" can be seen as a focus, as per mythology on Ishtar (Easter) the Morning Star (lucifer) was born out of a fallen ISHTAR's (easter) "EGG". And the fallen star would make mankind "bitter" and poisonous like wormwood.
IN Conclusion: if Christians want to hijack Passover and claim Jesus in it, then they are admitting Jesus is Lucifer and changes holidays (as they claimed satan would) and we know the Bible telks us to passover this first born son-the fallen first messiah.

So Abraham and the Law in Leviticus has the Jews offering an Egyptian idol to God?

You are one desperate dude on spin jobs and really really lousy at it.

no-----the Hebrew people did not worship lambs----that's the Egyptians.
For the sake of your education------try to learn a bit about animal sacrifice
in ancient times-------it actually relates to the realities of an agrarian
society and just how people get to eat meat. Greeks and Romans did it too.
Lots of societies that are still primitive ALSO so engage. In fact---the organized
killing and distribution of animal food in ritual-----is a step ahead of caveman

 

[HaShev]

Problems with this OP:
1)the lamb is a bad thing on Passover=an Egyptian idol.
2) Isaiah 53 is about Israel Plural present past tense not singular fiture tense, and context says Israel is the servant in Isaiah's 14 times.
3) if you want Jesus to be part of the sedar then that is also problematic as per my post.
Where I stated:
The seder set with traditional "egg and bitter" can be seen as a focus, as per mythology on Ishtar (Easter) the Morning Star (lucifer) was born out of a fallen ISHTAR's (easter) "EGG". And the fallen star would make mankind "bitter" and poisonous like wormwood.
IN Conclusion: if Christians want to hijack Passover and claim Jesus in it, then they are admitting Jesus is Lucifer and changes holidays (as they claimed satan would) and we know the Bible telks us to passover this first born son-the fallen first messiah.

So Abraham and the Law in Leviticus has the Jews offering an Egyptian idol to God?

You are one desperate dude on spin jobs and really really lousy at it.

No, when they eat the idol gods of other cultures it is to show they have no power and thus mock those idol worshipers. Most likely the Heifer at the Temple represented the Mithra bull symbol worship and here the lamb was the Egyptian idol worship.
Eating the flesh of the enemy god in those ages and other cultures meant gaining the power of that god, in the ancient Hebrews tradition it was to show that they were no gods and that they gained not the power of that god but
"power over that god".
IT's one step further then smashing their idols, they are showing respect and devotion to their God by trashing the rival idol gods.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Problems with this OP:
1)the lamb is a bad thing on Passover=an Egyptian idol.
2) Isaiah 53 is about Israel Plural present past tense not singular fiture tense, and context says Israel is the servant in Isaiah's 14 times.
3) if you want Jesus to be part of the sedar then that is also problematic as per my post.
Where I stated:
The seder set with traditional "egg and bitter" can be seen as a focus, as per mythology on Ishtar (Easter) the Morning Star (lucifer) was born out of a fallen ISHTAR's (easter) "EGG". And the fallen star would make mankind "bitter" and poisonous like wormwood.
IN Conclusion: if Christians want to hijack Passover and claim Jesus in it, then they are admitting Jesus is Lucifer and changes holidays (as they claimed satan would) and we know the Bible telks us to passover this first born son-the fallen first messiah.

So Abraham and the Law in Leviticus has the Jews offering an Egyptian idol to God?

You are one desperate dude on spin jobs and really really lousy at it.

no-----the Hebrew people did not worship lambs----that's the Egyptians.
For the sake of your education------try to learn a bit about animal sacrifice
in ancient times-------it actually relates to the realities of an agrarian
society and just how people get to eat meat. Greeks and Romans did it too.
Lots of societies that are still primitive ALSO so engage. In fact---the organized
killing and distribution of animal food in ritual-----is a step ahead of caveman

Nobody claimed Jews worshipped lambs.
They sacrificed them.
Since the foundation of Judaism.

 

[irosie91]

All Christians should attend a Seder meal, preferably held by a completed Jew who can explain the symbolism as I outline below. It is a meal that Jesus would have conducted every year.

A little background first. The Passover is when the Jewish slaves of Egypt put the blood of a lamb over their door so that death passed over the house that night as the final plague on Egypt so they would free the Jews.

The Passover Seder is a Jewish ritual feast that marks the beginning of the Jewish holiday of Passover. The elements are symbols of events with the purpose allowing each generation to remember what occurred in the time of Moses. The Hebrew word Seder means “order.” The Passover meal has a specific order in which food is eaten, prayers are recited, and songs are sung. Each item on the Passover plate has a specific historical meaning related to the exodus of the Jews from Egypt and their freedom from slavery. Most of the elements are historical, and some are messianic.

Passover is also the day Jesus was crucified.

One of the elements is the shank bone of a lamb to symbolize the placement of blood over the doors in Egypt. John 1:29, Jesus is the lamb of God. His blood saves all who accept Him.

The instructions for the original Passover specified that the lamb’s bones could not be broken, another foreshadowing of Christ’s death as the prophecy of the death of Jesus would not have his bones broken. (Crucifixion requires the use of the legs to fill the lungs with air. If they wanted to speed things along the legs of the person being crucified were broken. The two crucified with Jesus had their legs broken, Jesus was dead when they got to him. Then his side was pierced to make sure.)

Matzoh is unleavened bread to remember when the fleeing Jews did not have time to let the bread rise. It is flat, pierced, and striped as an end product.

Isaiah 53:5

But He was pierced for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

Jesus was bruised, whipped and pierced.

Three matzoh are placed in a linen bag. Jews do not know why they place three in the bag. Christians recognize this as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

There are three pouches in the bag, one for each matzoh. The middle matzoh is broken in half. One half remains inside the bag, the other is wrapped in linin and hidden until the end of the meal. As stated earlier, no one knows why three. Some Jews believe they represent Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But they cannot explain why Isaac is broken. Christians recognize this as the broken body of Christ. The other half removed is wrapped in a linen cloth and hidden. Christians recognize this as the linen wrapped body placed into a tomb.

There are also four cups of wine used at various points during the Seder. Each of these glasses of wine has a name: the first glass is the “cup of sanctification.” The second is the “cup of judgment.” The third is the “cup of redemption.” And the fourth is the “cup of praise.” At the Last Supper Jesus took the first cup and promised His disciples that the next time He drank the fruit of the vine with them would be in the kingdom. Later in the Seder, Jesus took the third cup—the cup of redemption—and used that cup as a symbol of the New Covenant in His blood. Thus Jesus fulfilled the Passover symbolism and infused the whole feast with a new meaning.

At the end of the meal tradition has the children go and find the hidden half of matzoh. When it is found it is removed from the linen and the festivities can begin. Christians see this as the resurrection.

Are we even sure the Israelites were slaves in Egypt? Archeological digs in Palestine show that, except for the absence of pig bones, there are no obvious differences between them and other Canaanites and no evidence of destruction of cities, as mentioned in the Bible, found in the correct time period. I also noticed that the description of Haroset mentions the pyramids, despite the fact that they were already a thousand years old when the Israelites were supposed to have resided in Egypt.

Whether or not the stories are factually correct is irrelevant, for the most part.

There's no physical evidence that a man named Jesus ever existed, either.

No evidence other than numerous historical records.
Even Mohamed acknowledged Jesus existed, hate monger troll.

Mohamed heard voices in a bat cave

 

[Picaro]

Evidence for Jews in Egypt? There is evidence Jewish soldiers occupied a fort on the Nile river circa 700 B.C., for one; not sure if they were slave soldiers, as was the case for the Jewish soldiers who served with the Muslim invaders of Spain, but there is evidence of Jewish and Egyptian and Israeli relations over a long period. I'll try and find a pdf available online on Jewish military history that presents th evidence for the fort .