The difference between anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel

[Coyote]

This is what wikipedia defines as indiginous peoples (First Nations) - which is what I've always understood it to mean. Defining people as an "indiginous people" does grant special rights according to this.

Indigenous peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indigenous people, aboriginal people, or native people, are groups protected in international or national legislation as having a set of specific rights based on their linguistic and historical ties to a particular territory, their cultural and historical distinctiveness from other populations.[1] The legislation is based on the conclusion that certain indigenous people are vulnerable to exploitation, marginalization, oppression, forced assimilation, and genocide by nation states formed from colonizing populations or by politically dominant, different ethnic groups.


A special set of political rights in accordance with international law have been set forth by international organizations such as the United Nations, the International Labour Organization and the World Bank.[2] The United Nations has issued a Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples to guide member-state national policies to collective rights of indigenous people—such as culture, identity, language, and access to employment, health, education, and natural resources. Estimates put the total population of indigenous peoples from 220 million to 350 million.[3]


A defining characteristic for an indigenous group is that it has preserved traditional ways of living, such as present or historical reliance upon subsistence-based production (based on pastoral, horticultural and/or hunting and gathering techniques), and a predominantly non-urbanized society. Not all indigenous groups share these characteristics. Indigenous societies may be either settled in a given locale/region or exhibit a nomadic lifestyle across a large territory, but are generally historically associated with a specific territory on which they depend. Indigenous societies are found in every inhabited climate zone and continent of the world.[2][4]

Indigenous peoples are increasingly faced with threats to their sovereignty, environment, and access to natural resources. Examples of this can be the deforestation of tropical rainforests where several of the native tribe's subsistence and their normal lifestyle are threatened. Assimilative colonial policies resulted in ongoing issues related to aboriginal child protection​

That is not the same as having originated somewhere, having religious and cultural ties to a land and it's more than just having a distinct culture, but a distinct type of culture as well all of which allow them to be granted special rights in order to preserve them from exploitation in the face of dominant cultures.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

Why do the Jewish people have rights to the territory in question? In your belief system.

They have rights based upon the laws of Israel which set up a Jewish homeland based upon their ancestral ties to the region.

The rights to the territory, to live there, come from the state.

The rights to holy places - freedom to worship etc, are independent of the state.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

What special rights do you think I am asking for the Jewish people? In the context of this thread, in particular.

All I am asking for is recognition of our history, ancestry and religious origins. How is that a "special right"?

You repeatedly frame it in terms of "rights" - not recognition - rights. And those are rights not granted all around, but specific to specific people - that's special rights.

Dodge. What specific special rights am I claiming for the Jewish people?

Remember this began as a discussion about colonialism. So how is the request for recognition of the historical, ancestral, and religious origins of the Jewish people asking for "special rights"? I'm only asking for what EVERY other people is granted automatically -- for their connection to NOT be denied by using false terms like colonialism.

And that is EXACTLY the context of this thread. You insist I am asking for special rights, when all I am asking is for the same rights as other peoples. Your anti-zionism is showing.

Is this your nice way of calling me anti-semitic?

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

What special rights do you think I am asking for the Jewish people? In the context of this thread, in particular.

All I am asking for is recognition of our history, ancestry and religious origins. How is that a "special right"?

You repeatedly frame it in terms of "rights" - not recognition - rights. And those are rights not granted all around, but specific to specific people - that's special rights.

Dodge. What specific special rights am I claiming for the Jewish people?

It's not a dodge - you repeatedly talk about RIGHTS. That is a word with a specific meaning, that is not the same as "recognition" - so which is it you mean?

Remember this began as a discussion about colonialism. So how is the request for recognition of the historical, ancestral, and religious origins of the Jewish people asking for "special rights"? I'm only asking for what EVERY other people is granted automatically -- for their connection to NOT be denied by using false terms like colonialism.

Because you weren't talking about recognition - you were talking about rights - rights to places based upon being indiginous - that is not granted to EVERY other people automatically.

And that is EXACTLY the context of this thread. You insist I am asking for special rights, when all I am asking is for the same rights as other peoples. Your anti-zionism is showing.

There is a difference between rights and recognition.

 

[Shusha]

Is this your nice way of calling me anti-semitic?

Nope. Its my nice way of asking you to examine whether or not you support anti-zionism. You SAY you support zionism, but your arguments tend to support anti-zionism. Just asking you to choose and then be able to articulate your choice and defend it regularly.

 

[Shusha]

There is a difference between rights and recognition.

How so? Again, you claim I am asking for special rights for the Jewish people. What special rights am I claiming?

 

[Shusha]

Indigenous people, aboriginal people, or native people, are groups protected in international or national legislation as having a set of specific rights based on their linguistic and historical ties to a particular territory, their cultural and historical distinctiveness from other populations.[1] The legislation is based on the conclusion that certain indigenous people are vulnerable to exploitation, marginalization, oppression, forced assimilation, and genocide by nation states formed from colonizing populations or by politically dominant, different ethnic groups. ​

This is only one definition of indigenous, but lets go with it for now.

Um. Yep. Bang on. Exactly defines the Jewish people. They forget to mention the dispossession, the displacement and the ethnic cleansing though.

On the other hand, this does make the Palestinian claim a bit dodgy. Not that I would argue with the Palestinian right to self-determination, but....you have to be careful when you introduce actual objective criteria into the discussion. People will jump on it.

A defining characteristic for an indigenous group is that it has preserved traditional ways of living, such as present or historical reliance upon subsistence-based production (based on pastoral, horticultural and/or hunting and gathering techniques), and a predominantly non-urbanized society. Not all indigenous groups share these characteristics. Indigenous societies may be either settled in a given locale/region or exhibit a nomadic lifestyle across a large territory, but are generally historically associated with a specific territory on which they depend.

Indigenous societies are found in every inhabited climate zone and continent of the world.[2][4]

Again, this is only one definition, and certainly not one I would agree with. But...even if the criteria is a subsistence-based, pastoral or hunter/gatherer population -- neither the Palestinians nor the Jewish people would qualify -- giving neither superior rights to the other.

Remember -- I am arguing for EQUAL rights of BOTH people. The anti-zionists are arguing for ALL rights to the Palestinian people and NO rights for the Jewish people.


​

 

[theliq]

Coyote

Why do the Jewish people have rights to the territory in question? In your belief system.

They have rights based upon the laws of Israel which set up a Jewish homeland based upon their ancestral ties to the region.

The rights to the territory, to live there, come from the state.

The rights to holy places - freedom to worship etc, are independent of the state.

Well many,mainly the Palestinians have exactly the same right,something you omitted Coy,steve

 

[theliq]

Indigenous people, aboriginal people, or native people, are groups protected in international or national legislation as having a set of specific rights based on their linguistic and historical ties to a particular territory, their cultural and historical distinctiveness from other populations.[1] The legislation is based on the conclusion that certain indigenous people are vulnerable to exploitation, marginalization, oppression, forced assimilation, and genocide by nation states formed from colonizing populations or by politically dominant, different ethnic groups. ​

This is only one definition of indigenous, but lets go with it for now.

Um. Yep. Bang on. Exactly defines the Jewish people. They forget to mention the dispossession, the displacement and the ethnic cleansing though.

On the other hand, this does make the Palestinian claim a bit dodgy. Not that I would argue with the Palestinian right to self-determination, but....you have to be careful when you introduce actual objective criteria into the discussion. People will jump on it.

A defining characteristic for an indigenous group is that it has preserved traditional ways of living, such as present or historical reliance upon subsistence-based production (based on pastoral, horticultural and/or hunting and gathering techniques), and a predominantly non-urbanized society. Not all indigenous groups share these characteristics. Indigenous societies may be either settled in a given locale/region or exhibit a nomadic lifestyle across a large territory, but are generally historically associated with a specific territory on which they depend.

Indigenous societies are found in every inhabited climate zone and continent of the world.[2][4]

Again, this is only one definition, and certainly not one I would agree with. But...even if the criteria is a subsistence-based, pastoral or hunter/gatherer population -- neither the Palestinians nor the Jewish people would qualify -- giving neither superior rights to the other.

Remember -- I am arguing for EQUAL rights of BOTH people. The anti-zionists are arguing for ALL rights to the Palestinian people and NO rights for the Jewish people.


​

Good Post Shusha......But you are wrong about Anti-Zionists(Which does not mean Anti Semitic/Jewish).

Zionist Terrorists do not want to give the Palestinians anything,Land(Homeland)....even their existence......show me in the Zionist Mantra where they say they wish to even negotiate with Palestinians,let alone give them Land.....You do realize "your precious Zionists prior to 1948 were Death Squads who murdered Palestinians and Razed their,the Palestinians Towns and Villages and Force Deported 100's of Thousands out of Palestine,where they had been living for thousands of years.....only to fill Israel with European,Moroccan,African,Tar-Tars,Turkic etc., Jews who have NO lineage to Abraham but were mostly converts to Judiaism and are people of other ethnicity.......I asked Roudy but it applies to all of you to take a DNA test to actually see what your Jewish make up is.

As I said to Roudy,that I could have Jewish blood in me,and it could be more that those that only have a few % Jewish Blood who claim to be Jewish.....to those that say we have a historical characteristic of being Jewish.....make them the same as in the past.....being merely converts to Judaism.....like me being a Christian........one of my employees had this DNA test done....her father was Italian and mother is English...Her Results


42% Italian
33% Irish(Celtic)
8% Turkic-Persian
6% Greek
6% Anglo-Saxon
2% Jewish
2% Arabic
1% Iberian (a nice way of saying Neanderthal......most Europeans have a % or two of Neanderthal,as it was on the Iberian Peninsular that they mixed with Homo-Saps before they died out).

I have resisted the "Test" myself,because I could end up being 99% Neanderthal......which Roudy,Hoss,Pheo,The Mods and so many others would not find too hard to believe..LOL....Susha,again many thanks for your very thoughtful post ...steve

 

[Shusha]

Um. Iberian is Spain/Portugal.

And if you think the DNA testing is the way to determine sovereignty over territory -- do you think the Palestinians should be tested as well? Or just the Jews?

What results would confer sovereignty? What percentage of the "right" DNA would permit one to become (or stay) a citizen of Israel/Palestine? What happens to the people who have the "wrong" DNA? Should they be transferred or deported? Where should they be deported to? The places where their DNA tells them they are "from"? Should your employee be deported to Italy? Since that is where her DNA tells us she is "from"? For that matter, should we ALL be tested to see what our DNA tells us? Should we all be transferred to our "correct" racial places? If not enough people share the same DNA in one place, does that mean they shouldn't have sovereignty over that place?

My ancestry is Scots, Irish and German. Where should I go? I'm rather fond of kilts, so my first pick would be Scotland. Do you think they'd have me? We have a tartan now, did you know? The Scots Jews. Its really kinda cool.

I think I like it better than my actual ancestral tartan:

 

[Mindful]

Um. Iberian is Spain/Portugal.

And if you think the DNA testing is the way to determine sovereignty over territory -- do you think the Palestinians should be tested as well? Or just the Jews?

What results would confer sovereignty? What percentage of the "right" DNA would permit one to become (or stay) a citizen of Israel/Palestine? What happens to the people who have the "wrong" DNA? Should they be transferred or deported? Where should they be deported to? The places where their DNA tells them they are "from"? Should your employee be deported to Italy? Since that is where her DNA tells us she is "from"? For that matter, should we ALL be tested to see what our DNA tells us? Should we all be transferred to our "correct" racial places? If not enough people share the same DNA in one place, does that mean they shouldn't have sovereignty over that place?

My ancestry is Scots, Irish and German. Where should I go? I'm rather fond of kilts, so my first pick would be Scotland. Do you think they'd have me? We have a tartan now, did you know? The Scots Jews. Its really kinda cool.

I think I like it better than my actual ancestral tartan:

Malcolm Rifkind is a Scottish Jewish politician.

 

[Mindful]

Indigenous people, aboriginal people, or native people, are groups protected in international or national legislation as having a set of specific rights based on their linguistic and historical ties to a particular territory, their cultural and historical distinctiveness from other populations.[1] The legislation is based on the conclusion that certain indigenous people are vulnerable to exploitation, marginalization, oppression, forced assimilation, and genocide by nation states formed from colonizing populations or by politically dominant, different ethnic groups. ​

This is only one definition of indigenous, but lets go with it for now.

Um. Yep. Bang on. Exactly defines the Jewish people. They forget to mention the dispossession, the displacement and the ethnic cleansing though.

On the other hand, this does make the Palestinian claim a bit dodgy. Not that I would argue with the Palestinian right to self-determination, but....you have to be careful when you introduce actual objective criteria into the discussion. People will jump on it.

A defining characteristic for an indigenous group is that it has preserved traditional ways of living, such as present or historical reliance upon subsistence-based production (based on pastoral, horticultural and/or hunting and gathering techniques), and a predominantly non-urbanized society. Not all indigenous groups share these characteristics. Indigenous societies may be either settled in a given locale/region or exhibit a nomadic lifestyle across a large territory, but are generally historically associated with a specific territory on which they depend.

Indigenous societies are found in every inhabited climate zone and continent of the world.[2][4]

Again, this is only one definition, and certainly not one I would agree with. But...even if the criteria is a subsistence-based, pastoral or hunter/gatherer population -- neither the Palestinians nor the Jewish people would qualify -- giving neither superior rights to the other.

Remember -- I am arguing for EQUAL rights of BOTH people. The anti-zionists are arguing for ALL rights to the Palestinian people and NO rights for the Jewish people.


​

Good Post Shusha......But you are wrong about Anti-Zionists(Which does not mean Anti Semitic/Jewish).

Zionist Terrorists do not want to give the Palestinians anything,Land(Homeland)....even their existence......show me in the Zionist Mantra where they say they wish to even negotiate with Palestinians,let alone give them Land.....You do realize "your precious Zionists prior to 1948 were Death Squads who murdered Palestinians and Razed their,the Palestinians Towns and Villages and Force Deported 100's of Thousands out of Palestine,where they had been living for thousands of years.....only to fill Israel with European,Moroccan,African,Tar-Tars,Turkic etc., Jews who have NO lineage to Abraham but were mostly converts to Judiaism and are people of other ethnicity.......I asked Roudy but it applies to all of you to take a DNA test to actually see what your Jewish make up is.

As I said to Roudy,that I could have Jewish blood in me,and it could be more that those that only have a few % Jewish Blood who claim to be Jewish.....to those that say we have a historical characteristic of being Jewish.....make them the same as in the past.....being merely converts to Judaism.....like me being a Christian........one of my employees had this DNA test done....her father was Italian and mother is English...Her Results


42% Italian
33% Irish(Celtic)
8% Turkic-Persian
6% Greek
6% Anglo-Saxon
2% Jewish
2% Arabic
1% Iberian (a nice way of saying Neanderthal......most Europeans have a % or two of Neanderthal,as it was on the Iberian Peninsular that they mixed with Homo-Saps before they died out).

I have resisted the "Test" myself,because I could end up being 99% Neanderthal......which Roudy,Hoss,Pheo,The Mods and so many others would not find too hard to believe..LOL....Susha,again many thanks for your very thoughtful post ...steve

This is getting like eugenics now. Quite vile.

 

[Challenger]

Um. Iberian is Spain/Portugal.

And if you think the DNA testing is the way to determine sovereignty over territory -- do you think the Palestinians should be tested as well? Or just the Jews?

What results would confer sovereignty? What percentage of the "right" DNA would permit one to become (or stay) a citizen of Israel/Palestine? What happens to the people who have the "wrong" DNA? Should they be transferred or deported? Where should they be deported to? The places where their DNA tells them they are "from"? Should your employee be deported to Italy? Since that is where her DNA tells us she is "from"? For that matter, should we ALL be tested to see what our DNA tells us? Should we all be transferred to our "correct" racial places? If not enough people share the same DNA in one place, does that mean they shouldn't have sovereignty over that place?

My ancestry is Scots, Irish and German. Where should I go? I'm rather fond of kilts, so my first pick would be Scotland. Do you think they'd have me? We have a tartan now, did you know? The Scots Jews. Its really kinda cool.

I think I like it better than my actual ancestral tartan:

There are Iberians in the Caucasus, roughly where modern Georgia is.

You're a Matheson then? But that's only a hunting Tartan the formal one is mainly red. Sadly the "Jewish Tartan" is a marketing gimmick with no history behind it, but it looks good, I'll give you that. My wife is Scottish, before you ask.

 

[Challenger]

All I am asking for is recognition of our history, ancestry and religious origins. How is that a "special right"?

The problem arises because modern Jewish people are a Zionist invention for what is really a religious group, like the Mormons. Do the Mormons have "special rights" to America? Can you provide objective non-religious evidence directly linking modern Jewish people with Judean monotheists that were almost all exterminated by the Romans during the seige of Jerusalem in 70CE? I've no doubt the religion itself survived, as it's impossible to kill an idea and there were certainly Judean (although not necessarily practicioners of Judean monotheism) expatriates and Jewish missionaries around throughout the Roman empire at the time, but does becoming a convert to Judaism suddenly bestow a biological link to ancient Judea?

 

[theliq]

Um. Iberian is Spain/Portugal.

And if you think the DNA testing is the way to determine sovereignty over territory -- do you think the Palestinians should be tested as well? Or just the Jews?

What results would confer sovereignty? What percentage of the "right" DNA would permit one to become (or stay) a citizen of Israel/Palestine? What happens to the people who have the "wrong" DNA? Should they be transferred or deported? Where should they be deported to? The places where their DNA tells them they are "from"? Should your employee be deported to Italy? Since that is where her DNA tells us she is "from"? For that matter, should we ALL be tested to see what our DNA tells us? Should we all be transferred to our "correct" racial places? If not enough people share the same DNA in one place, does that mean they shouldn't have sovereignty over that place?

My ancestry is Scots, Irish and German. Where should I go? I'm rather fond of kilts, so my first pick would be Scotland. Do you think they'd have me? We have a tartan now, did you know? The Scots Jews. Its really kinda cool.

I think I like it better than my actual ancestral tartan:

I DON'T......,Shusha,No not at all.. you misunderstood me,what I mean't was that many as you know, claim to be of Jewish ancestory sic but in fact a lot of Jews have no real link other than religion etc.,.....it would be interesting for Palestinians like Jewish folk to do a DNA test....Shusha...I think they would have a lot in common,...as for the right amount of DNA that is irrelevant in todays world as you can see by Carols test, but then she does not claim to be Pure Jewish like some on here,.....to me it matters not what make up you are as long as you don't claim to be Prue Bred(some Japanese often claim this,but the original people in Japan are dark skinned Aboriginals,who live in mainly Haikkado in the North)...........steven ps I'm sure everyone would want you......Nice "Plaid" by the way

 

[theliq]

Indigenous people, aboriginal people, or native people, are groups protected in international or national legislation as having a set of specific rights based on their linguistic and historical ties to a particular territory, their cultural and historical distinctiveness from other populations.[1] The legislation is based on the conclusion that certain indigenous people are vulnerable to exploitation, marginalization, oppression, forced assimilation, and genocide by nation states formed from colonizing populations or by politically dominant, different ethnic groups. ​

This is only one definition of indigenous, but lets go with it for now.

Um. Yep. Bang on. Exactly defines the Jewish people. They forget to mention the dispossession, the displacement and the ethnic cleansing though.

On the other hand, this does make the Palestinian claim a bit dodgy. Not that I would argue with the Palestinian right to self-determination, but....you have to be careful when you introduce actual objective criteria into the discussion. People will jump on it.

A defining characteristic for an indigenous group is that it has preserved traditional ways of living, such as present or historical reliance upon subsistence-based production (based on pastoral, horticultural and/or hunting and gathering techniques), and a predominantly non-urbanized society. Not all indigenous groups share these characteristics. Indigenous societies may be either settled in a given locale/region or exhibit a nomadic lifestyle across a large territory, but are generally historically associated with a specific territory on which they depend.

Indigenous societies are found in every inhabited climate zone and continent of the world.[2][4]

Again, this is only one definition, and certainly not one I would agree with. But...even if the criteria is a subsistence-based, pastoral or hunter/gatherer population -- neither the Palestinians nor the Jewish people would qualify -- giving neither superior rights to the other.

Remember -- I am arguing for EQUAL rights of BOTH people. The anti-zionists are arguing for ALL rights to the Palestinian people and NO rights for the Jewish people.


​

Good Post Shusha......But you are wrong about Anti-Zionists(Which does not mean Anti Semitic/Jewish).

Zionist Terrorists do not want to give the Palestinians anything,Land(Homeland)....even their existence......show me in the Zionist Mantra where they say they wish to even negotiate with Palestinians,let alone give them Land.....You do realize "your precious Zionists prior to 1948 were Death Squads who murdered Palestinians and Razed their,the Palestinians Towns and Villages and Force Deported 100's of Thousands out of Palestine,where they had been living for thousands of years.....only to fill Israel with European,Moroccan,African,Tar-Tars,Turkic etc., Jews who have NO lineage to Abraham but were mostly converts to Judiaism and are people of other ethnicity.......I asked Roudy but it applies to all of you to take a DNA test to actually see what your Jewish make up is.

As I said to Roudy,that I could have Jewish blood in me,and it could be more that those that only have a few % Jewish Blood who claim to be Jewish.....to those that say we have a historical characteristic of being Jewish.....make them the same as in the past.....being merely converts to Judaism.....like me being a Christian........one of my employees had this DNA test done....her father was Italian and mother is English...Her Results


42% Italian
33% Irish(Celtic)
8% Turkic-Persian
6% Greek
6% Anglo-Saxon
2% Jewish
2% Arabic
1% Iberian (a nice way of saying Neanderthal......most Europeans have a % or two of Neanderthal,as it was on the Iberian Peninsular that they mixed with Homo-Saps before they died out).

I have resisted the "Test" myself,because I could end up being 99% Neanderthal......which Roudy,Hoss,Pheo,The Mods and so many others would not find too hard to believe..LOL....Susha,again many thanks for your very thoughtful post ...steve

This is getting like eugenics now. Quite vile.

No Not at all..............you are just too thin-skinned for this converstion

 

[Coyote]

Is this your nice way of calling me anti-semitic?

Nope. Its my nice way of asking you to examine whether or not you support anti-zionism. You SAY you support zionism, but your arguments tend to support anti-zionism. Just asking you to choose and then be able to articulate your choice and defend it regularly.

I support the right of Israel to exist as an independent nation. I support it's right to be a homeland to Jews. It's the right of any nation to define it's own cultural identity and Israel is no different than any other state in that regard.

I don't know how that fits in with Zionism or Anti-Zionism.

 

[Coyote]

There is a difference between rights and recognition.

How so? Again, you claim I am asking for special rights for the Jewish people. What special rights am I claiming?

There is a difference between rights and recognition.

How so? Again, you claim I am asking for special rights for the Jewish people. What special rights am I claiming?

This is what you said in an earlier post: "And frankly, this is where you lose my respect -- when you support the obvious negation of the Jewish people's rights to ancestral, historical and religious territory based on their origins in that territory, by making such fallacious and nefarious arguments as you are here"

You are not talking about recognition - you are talking about rights. Both you and I use words very carefully. You use the words "rights to" not "recognition of" - why? And, what am to assume about this?

Do the Palestinians have those same rights? Do they have the same open-ended "right of return" you grant the Jews? If so - that bit of land is going to be a royal demographic mess.

See, you say I don't treat both sides equally - but my feeling is neither side, once they've left have any special rights beyond the actual people that were expelled. Their descendents have the same rights anyone else does. They have the right to immigrate (within the state's laws), to purchase land and to become citizens. They have the right to rediscover their roots - just like anyone else does. Anything beyond that is granting special rights to a particular group of people.

Rights and recognition are two different things. You can recognize that Jews have a special tie to Palestine based on ancient history, culture and religion. In that regard, I can agree that they should hold priority in the control of their ancient holy sites (not sole administration in shared sites, but a priority). But I don't agree that that recognition translates into special rights to territory. And I feel equally the same whether it's Jewish or Palestinian.

 

[Coyote]

Indigenous people, aboriginal people, or native people, are groups protected in international or national legislation as having a set of specific rights based on their linguistic and historical ties to a particular territory, their cultural and historical distinctiveness from other populations.[1] The legislation is based on the conclusion that certain indigenous people are vulnerable to exploitation, marginalization, oppression, forced assimilation, and genocide by nation states formed from colonizing populations or by politically dominant, different ethnic groups. ​

This is only one definition of indigenous, but lets go with it for now.​

It is the definition I've always associated with the term.

Um. Yep. Bang on. Exactly defines the Jewish people. They forget to mention the dispossession, the displacement and the ethnic cleansing though.

Nope. Not really. You are applying modern concepts to ancient events that are recorded religious mythology - the accuracy of which is disputable.

On the other hand, this does make the Palestinian claim a bit dodgy. Not that I would argue with the Palestinian right to self-determination, but....you have to be careful when you introduce actual objective criteria into the discussion. People will jump on it.

It makes BOTH their claims dodgy - neither really fits, and that doesn't bother me in the least. I don't think rights to that territory should be derived on who is or is not "indiginous".

A defining characteristic for an indigenous group is that it has preserved traditional ways of living, such as present or historical reliance upon subsistence-based production (based on pastoral, horticultural and/or hunting and gathering techniques), and a predominantly non-urbanized society. Not all indigenous groups share these characteristics. Indigenous societies may be either settled in a given locale/region or exhibit a nomadic lifestyle across a large territory, but are generally historically associated with a specific territory on which they depend.

Indigenous societies are found in every inhabited climate zone and continent of the world.[2][4]

Again, this is only one definition, and certainly not one I would agree with. But...even if the criteria is a subsistence-based, pastoral or hunter/gatherer population -- neither the Palestinians nor the Jewish people would qualify -- giving neither superior rights to the other.

DING DING DING! Absolutely! Neither has superior rights. The purpose of identifying "first nations" and "indiginous peoples" was not to allow people to claim ancient territory but to protect specific types of cultures from exploitation and disinigration - language, culture, faith etc. and protect their way of life - I life that was usually dependent on the land in which they lived. Trying to label Palestinians and Jews as "an indiginous people" or "First Nations" makes a mockery of that.

Remember -- I am arguing for EQUAL rights of BOTH people. The anti-zionists are arguing for ALL rights to the Palestinian people and NO rights for the Jewish people.

And that is exactly what I am arguing for.

 

[Coyote]

All I am asking for is recognition of our history, ancestry and religious origins. How is that a "special right"?

The problem arises because modern Jewish people are a Zionist invention for what is really a religious group, like the Mormons. Do the Mormons have "special rights" to America? Can you provide objective non-religious evidence directly linking modern Jewish people with Judean monotheists that were almost all exterminated by the Romans during the seige of Jerusalem in 70CE? I've no doubt the religion itself survived, as it's impossible to kill an idea and there were certainly Judean (although not necessarily practicioners of Judean monotheism) expatriates and Jewish missionaries around throughout the Roman empire at the time, but does becoming a convert to Judaism suddenly bestow a biological link to ancient Judea?

I don't think Jews can be defined as strictly a religious group - typically, it's termed "ethno-religious". If they were just religious, then secular Jews would not be Jews. The other thing is - DNA studies show close links among the various Jewish groups - significantly closer to each other and the Palestinians than to the general European population. I don't see how that is a "Zionist" invention when they've been an identifiable group with an identifiable culture for thousands of years. You can argue that the nationalistic element is a "Zionist invention" because that is what Zionism is - to create a Jewish homeland.