The Civil War

[bripat9643]

Lincoln invaded Virginia, thereby starting the war. Confederates didn't set foot in Union territory until the war had been going on for over two years.

I always thought the South started the Civil War when they fired on and captured Fort Sumter. The first battle of Bull Run was only like 30 miles from DC, Lincoln had to send troops to fight the rebs in northern Virginia instead of the streets of Washington, to defend the capitol. Bull Run was the first major ground conflict in that war, but that wasn't where the war started.

I'm afraid it is where the war started.

 

[Unkotare]

.....

Lincoln invaded Virginia, thereby starting the war. .....

Wrong, no matter how many times you repeat the lie, idiot. You can't invade your own country. The scumbag so-called confederates started the war when they fired on Fort Sumter.

Virginia wasn't his country, ...

Virginia was and is part of the UNITED States of America. Lincoln was President of the UNITED States of America.

 

[Unkotare]

....

Sumpter was South Carolina territory, so how could that be an act of war?

You've run out of lies to repeat, loser.

 

[there4eyeM]

The south may have decided that it no longer "identified" as being part of the Perpetual Union, but expecting everyone else to just accept that was a form of delusion. "Confederate" troops didn't have to take a single step to be on Union territory. They would, rather, have had to take quite a few steps to get off it, or learned long distance swimming. Refusing to understand the formation of the nation does not qualify as an argument, merely negativism. The matter was bloodily settled and disputing it now only feeds the fierce divisions our enemies so desire to foment.

 

[DudleySmith]

Lincoln invaded Virginia, thereby starting the war. Confederates didn't set foot in Union territory until the war had been going on for over two years.

I always thought the South started the Civil War when they fired on and captured Fort Sumter. The first battle of Bull Run was only like 30 miles from DC, Lincoln had to send troops to fight the rebs in northern Virginia instead of the streets of Washington, to defend the capitol. Bull Run was the first major ground conflict in that war, but that wasn't where the war started.

Blockading a port is an act of war; blockading Charleston was a deliberate provocation. Lincoln knew what the result would be.


"But what am I to do in the meantime with those men at Montgomery [meaning the Confederate constitutional convention]? Am I to let them go on... [a]nd open Charleston, etc., as ports of entry, with their ten-percent tariff. What, then, would become of my tariff?" ~ Lincoln to Colonel John B. Baldwin, deputized by the Virginian Commissioners to determine whether Lincoln would use force, April 4, 1861.


"You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Fort Sumter, even if it should fail ; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result. "
Abraham Lincoln, in a letter to Gustavus Fox, May 1, 1861


"The affair at Fort Sumter, it seems to us, has been planned as a means by which the war feeling at the North should be intensified, and the administration thus receive popular support for its policy.... If the armament which lay outside the harbor, while the fort was being battered to pieces [the US ship The Harriet Lane, and seven other reinforcement ships], had been designed for the relief of Major Anderson, it certainly would have made a show of fulfilling its mission. But it seems plain to us that no such design was had. The administration, virtually, to use a homely illustration, stood at Sumter like a boy with a chip on his shoulder, daring his antagonist to knock it off. The Carolinians have knocked off the chip. War is inaugurated, and the design of the administration accomplished." ~ The Buffalo Daily Courier, April 16, 1861.

"We have no doubt, and all the circumstances prove, that it was a cunningly devised scheme, contrived with all due attention to scenic display and intended to arouse, and, if possible, exasperate the northern people against the South.... We venture to say a more gigantic conspiracy against the principles of human liberty and freedom has never been concocted. Who but a fiend could have thought of sacrificing the gallant Major Anderson and his little band in order to carry out a political game? Yet there he was compelled to stand for thirty-six hours amid a torrent of fire and shell, while the fleet sent to assist him, coolly looked at his flag of distress and moved not to his assistance! Why did they not? Perhaps the archives in Washington will yet tell the tale of this strange proceeding.... Pause then, and consider before you endorse these mad men who are now, under pretense of preserving the Union, doing the very thing that must forever divide it." ~ The New York Evening Day-Book, April 17, 1861.

 

[DudleySmith]

The south may have decided that it no longer "identified" as being part of the Perpetual Union, but expecting everyone else to just accept that was a form of delusion. "Confederate" troops didn't have to take a single step to be on Union territory. They would, rather, have had to take quite a few steps to get off it, or learned long distance swimming. Refusing to understand the formation of the nation does not qualify as an argument, merely negativism. The matter was bloodily settled and disputing it now only feeds the fierce divisions our enemies so desire to foment.

Rubbish. States had the right to secede; the Federal govt. didn't own them. Madison and the rest of Convention already decided that, and definitively rejected allowing the Federal govt. the power to use force against a state. It's you who doesn't understand the formation here.

The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, vol. 1 | Online Library of Liberty

Volume 1 covers May 14 to July 13, 1787. The records of the Federal Convention which was held in Philadelphia between May and September 1787. The sessions were secret but the proceedings were reconstructed from notes kept by the official secretary and some participants, most notably James Madison.

oll.libertyfund.org

May 31 ....

The 〈last〉 clause 〈of Resolution 6. authorizing〉 an exertion of the force of the whole agst. a delinquent State came next into consideration.


Mr. 〈Madison〉, observed that the more he reflected on the use of force, the more he doubted the practicability, the justice and the efficacy of it when applied to people collectively and not individually. — , A Union of the States 〈containing such an ingredient〉 seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force agst. a State, would look more like a declaration of war, than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound. He hoped that such a system would be framed as might render this recourse unnecessary, and moved that the clause be postponed.20 This motion was agreed to nem. con.


〈The Committee then rose & the House


Adjourned〉21

...

And to call forth the force of the union against any member of the union failing to fulfil its duty under the articles thereof.


postponed.


Mr. E. Gery thought this clause “ought to be expressed so as the people might not understand it to prevent their being alarmed”.


This idea rejected on account of its artifice, and because the system without such a declaration gave the government the means to secure itself.

The Writings, vol. 3 (1787) | Online Library of Liberty

Volume 3 of Madison’s writings in 9 volumes edited by Gaillard Hunt in 1900-10. This volume contains part I of the Journal of the Constitutional Convention.

oll.libertyfund.org

Also verifies the May 31 rejection.

The rest of the document also makes it clear they thought the Union was voluntary, and of course during the first 7 decades of the country it was northern states who made the most threats to secede, including supporters like the Adamses. See also the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions for a reaffirmation of the Union being voluntary.

 

[there4eyeM]

Lincoln invaded Virginia, thereby starting the war. Confederates didn't set foot in Union territory until the war had been going on for over two years.

I always thought the South started the Civil War when they fired on and captured Fort Sumter. The first battle of Bull Run was only like 30 miles from DC, Lincoln had to send troops to fight the rebs in northern Virginia instead of the streets of Washington, to defend the capitol. Bull Run was the first major ground conflict in that war, but that wasn't where the war started.

Sumpter began the shooting war. Declaring secession and proceeding with extra-Constitutional measures was an act of sedition such as no nation that could be defined as such could tolerate. It was not a gentleman's club where one paid dues until bored and quit. The nation was joined together voluntarily sate by state. The people in each state supported that or not, but the state bound itself to a perpetual accord. A state, like a man, honors word given or does not and, like a man, is judged and dealt with accordingly.
When one is in a society where voice is given through the ballot, one accepts the majority decision. Otherwise, if the society permits, one leaves. Otherwise, one rebels and pays the consequences. Complaining about that after the fact only reveals lack of capacity for thought and/or mature decision making.

 

[DudleySmith]

Lincoln invaded Virginia, thereby starting the war. Confederates didn't set foot in Union territory until the war had been going on for over two years.

I always thought the South started the Civil War when they fired on and captured Fort Sumter. The first battle of Bull Run was only like 30 miles from DC, Lincoln had to send troops to fight the rebs in northern Virginia instead of the streets of Washington, to defend the capitol. Bull Run was the first major ground conflict in that war, but that wasn't where the war started.

Sumpter began the shooting war. Declaring secession and proceeding with extra-Constitutional measures was an act of sedition such as no nation that could be defined as such could tolerate. It was not a gentleman's club where one paid dues until bored and quit. The nation was joined together voluntarily sate by state. The people in each state supported that or not, but the state bound itself to a perpetual accord. A state, like a man, honors word given or does not and, like a man, is judged and dealt with accordingly.
When one is in a society where voice is given through the ballot, one accepts the majority decision. Otherwise, if the society permits, one leaves. Otherwise, one rebels and pays the consequences. Complaining about that after the fact only reveals lack of capacity for thought and/or mature decision making.

Rubbish. There is nothing in the Constitution that binds a state involuntarily to any 'Union'. That's why none of you Lincoln fans can cite anything that does.

 

[bripat9643]

....

Sumpter was South Carolina territory, so how could that be an act of war?

You've run out of lies to repeat, loser.

ROFL! You have failed to demonstrate that I have posted a single lie, NAZI

 

[Unkotare]

..... You have failed to demonstrate that I have posted a single lie....

YOU have demonstrated it over and over again.

 

[bripat9643]

Lincoln invaded Virginia, thereby starting the war. Confederates didn't set foot in Union territory until the war had been going on for over two years.

I always thought the South started the Civil War when they fired on and captured Fort Sumter. The first battle of Bull Run was only like 30 miles from DC, Lincoln had to send troops to fight the rebs in northern Virginia instead of the streets of Washington, to defend the capitol. Bull Run was the first major ground conflict in that war, but that wasn't where the war started.

Sumpter began the shooting war. Declaring secession and proceeding with extra-Constitutional measures was an act of sedition such as no nation that could be defined as such could tolerate. It was not a gentleman's club where one paid dues until bored and quit. The nation was joined together voluntarily sate by state. The people in each state supported that or not, but the state bound itself to a perpetual accord. A state, like a man, honors word given or does not and, like a man, is judged and dealt with accordingly.
When one is in a society where voice is given through the ballot, one accepts the majority decision. Otherwise, if the society permits, one leaves. Otherwise, one rebels and pays the consequences. Complaining about that after the fact only reveals lack of capacity for thought and/or mature decision making.

It was not sedition, moron. Nothing in the Constitution says a state cannot secede. All your fulminations fail to get around that irrefutable fact have fallen flat.

The constitution is what the states agreed to. They agreed to only what's actually in it. Your inventions and fantasies simply aren't in the document. There is nothing about a "perpetual accord."

Government often rejects the majority opinion. The fact that we abide by it in some situations does not imply that we abide by it in all situations. The founders rejected unlimited democracy.

 

[bripat9643]

Lincoln invaded Virginia, thereby starting the war. Confederates didn't set foot in Union territory until the war had been going on for over two years.

I always thought the South started the Civil War when they fired on and captured Fort Sumter. The first battle of Bull Run was only like 30 miles from DC, Lincoln had to send troops to fight the rebs in northern Virginia instead of the streets of Washington, to defend the capitol. Bull Run was the first major ground conflict in that war, but that wasn't where the war started.

Sumpter began the shooting war. Declaring secession and proceeding with extra-Constitutional measures was an act of sedition such as no nation that could be defined as such could tolerate. It was not a gentleman's club where one paid dues until bored and quit. The nation was joined together voluntarily sate by state. The people in each state supported that or not, but the state bound itself to a perpetual accord. A state, like a man, honors word given or does not and, like a man, is judged and dealt with accordingly.
When one is in a society where voice is given through the ballot, one accepts the majority decision. Otherwise, if the society permits, one leaves. Otherwise, one rebels and pays the consequences. Complaining about that after the fact only reveals lack of capacity for thought and/or mature decision making.

Rubbish. There is nothing in the Constitution that binds a state involuntarily to any 'Union'. That's why none of you Lincoln fans can cite anything that does.

They twist themselves into logical contortions trying to claim it does, but their fulminations always fall flat.

 

[bripat9643]

..... You have failed to demonstrate that I have posted a single lie....

YOU have demonstrated it over and over again.

Where?

 

[bripat9643]

The south may have decided that it no longer "identified" as being part of the Perpetual Union, but expecting everyone else to just accept that was a form of delusion. "Confederate" troops didn't have to take a single step to be on Union territory. They would, rather, have had to take quite a few steps to get off it, or learned long distance swimming. Refusing to understand the formation of the nation does not qualify as an argument, merely negativism. The matter was bloodily settled and disputing it now only feeds the fierce divisions our enemies so desire to foment.

The "Perpetual union" was thrown into the waste bin when the states adopted the Constitution. Once they seceded, the Confederate states where no longer part of the union. There is no legal document that says otherwise.

We understand perfectly how this nation was formed, and nowhere did anyone vote to adopt a document that prevented a state from leaving if it so chose. The claim that the did is Union propaganda. That's why you have so singularly failed to make your case.

 

[bripat9643]

.....

Lincoln invaded Virginia, thereby starting the war. .....

Wrong, no matter how many times you repeat the lie, idiot. You can't invade your own country. The scumbag so-called confederates started the war when they fired on Fort Sumter.

Virginia wasn't his country, ...

Virginia was and is part of the UNITED States of America. Lincoln was President of the UNITED States of America.

You keep saying this, but you have failed to prove it.

 

[there4eyeM]

..... You have failed to demonstrate that I have posted a single lie....

YOU have demonstrated it over and over again.

As he doesn't accept that English means English, perhaps his perception of verity varies from the norm.

 

[bripat9643]

..... You have failed to demonstrate that I have posted a single lie....

YOU have demonstrated it over and over again.

As he doesn't accept that English means English, perhaps his perception of verity varies from the norm.

Sow me where my perceptions differs from the historical facts. We keep asking you for evidence that states were not allowed to secede. So far, you've produced a big nothing.

 

[there4eyeM]

..... You have failed to demonstrate that I have posted a single lie....

YOU have demonstrated it over and over again.

As he doesn't accept that English means English, perhaps his perception of verity varies from the norm.

Sow me where my perceptions differs from the historical facts. We keep asking you for evidence that states were not allowed to secede. So far, you've produced a big nothing.

See post 823 and 892.

 

[bripat9643]

..... You have failed to demonstrate that I have posted a single lie....

YOU have demonstrated it over and over again.

As he doesn't accept that English means English, perhaps his perception of verity varies from the norm.

Sow me where my perceptions differs from the historical facts. We keep asking you for evidence that states were not allowed to secede. So far, you've produced a big nothing.

See post 823 and 892.

The Articles of Confederation became null and void the minute the Constitution was approved. Your theory that government legislation can never be changed is utter horseshit. Congress changes existing laws all the time.

 

[there4eyeM]

..... You have failed to demonstrate that I have posted a single lie....

YOU have demonstrated it over and over again.

As he doesn't accept that English means English, perhaps his perception of verity varies from the norm.

Sow me where my perceptions differs from the historical facts. We keep asking you for evidence that states were not allowed to secede. So far, you've produced a big nothing.

See post 823 and 892.

The Articles of Confederation became null and void the minute the Constitution was approved. Your theory that government legislation can never be changed is utter horseshit. Congress changes existing laws all the time.

So, we agree that you do not acknowledge the meaning of English words.