turzovka
Gold Member
- Nov 20, 2012
- 5,195
- 1,039
- 265
If there were no purgatory, what would Protestants say about the billions of people who never knew or accepted Jesus? Are they all condemned? Or is salvation not just about faith? Or do most go directly to heaven? Neither of those answers sounds quite right or appears to line up properly with the nature of Gods justice and mercy.
This immediate heaven or hell upon the moment of death is just too suddenly drastic, and horrifying. Especially when one begins to ponder what merits heaven and what merits hell. Is there an age of accountability for an 11 year old pagan? I mean, is there an exact day he becomes accountable for his soul and actions? One day, if he dies, he is save, and the next day, if he dies, he is condemned? This cannot be. Consequenltly, there are thousands or millions of scenarios of humanity where the situations of saved or unsaved are equally precarious and unsettling.
Yes, we may very well be saved by faith (accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior) but that does not mean we still may not have to be purified before we can enter heaven. Revelations says nothing defiled shall enter the Kingdom. It should be obvious that is not in reference to those going to hell, but those who are saved, yet still with many stains of sin on their souls after they accepted Christ or for other reasons. With a doctrine of purgatory, it allows for much, much more mercy from a merciful God. Far less people end up totally condemned.
The most astounding of all the Christian miracles in recent centuries was the miracle of the sun at Fatima, Portugal, October 13, 1917. Three young children who had been witnessing apparitions of the Virgin Mary prophesied three months in advance (July 13) that a great miracle would be performed by Our Lady for all those people present and doubting the children to see on October 13th. So on a very rainy, muddy gray Portugal day 70,000 people arrived at the Cova da Iria to see if the children were truly prophets. Soon after 12 noon the rain stopped and the gray skies were split in two by an incredible sun which was inexplicably viewable to the human eye without damage. It looked like a silver disc and started dancing. Bouncing up and down defying cosmic laws. Then it started spinning and shooting off rays of all kinds of colors across the sky and landscape changing the faces of the crowd to blue, yellow, green, etc. It carried on in this remarkable fashion for twelve minutes. For its grand finale the sun turned blood red grew in size and charged toward the earth greatly frightening all present. At the last moment it stopped and receded peacefully into the sky.
This was a miracle beyond doubt. There were no longer any skeptics present. All saw that which was astoundingly prophesied three months in advance to the day. The soaked muddy ground was bone dry after this occurrence as a secondary miracle. These facts were reported in the various newspapers including O Seculo, Lisbons largest, if one wants further verification. Mary told of other events as related by the children that also came true, if one wants further verification.
I report this for one purpose, specifically for Protestants. One of the children, Lucia, asked about a relative by name who recently died. The Virgin Mother said that woman was in purgatory and would be there for a long time. Question: How can a person of normal intelligence and reason doubt the supernatural nature of this event? Question: How can anyone who accepts this miracle then doubt the other words Our Lady gave to these children, very specifically the mention of purgatory?
Yes, purgatory exists and many nominal or lukewarm Christians should be eternally grateful for that because such lazy or sinful behavior does not warrant heaven. And many non believers may rejoice if they find themselves there as well. It is a place of suffering, loneliness and regret, but there is also an incredible gratitude and joy knowing that one day each soul in purgatory will be allowed into heaven.
The evidence for purgatory is far greater than the Fatima account. I submit below some Biblical verses which Catholic teaching, in many cases, regards as references to purgatory or a state of purification. Consider them for yourselves.
=====================================================
Matthew 5:23-26
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.
[Jesus is assuring us (truly I say to you) that we will pay (be imprisoned) for a portion our transgressions until we have paid the last penny if we do not forgive others or obey. The key word is UNTIL. It is clear that once we have paid for our sins, THEN we WILL be released from our prison. That is not Hell because Hell is eternal. This is not an earthly reference as many who are to be saved have died without fulfilling all the requirements this passage implies. This is referring to purgatory where you will be eventually released.]
Luke 12:45-48
"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk: the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
[The one slave who was not as guilty because he was somewhat ignorant of the gravity of his sins will receive less lashes. Note, he will still be punished, but not as severely. This is clearly not talking about hell, it is about some punishment that is less than eternal. It is purgatory once again. Different degrees of punishment which is how many have described it. Also, to whom more has been given (i.e. knowledge, riches, revelation, opportunity, etc.) more will be required; otherwise something consequential results. ]
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
[Saved, but still will suffer loss as yet through fire. Protestants can argue this is some earthly punishment, not an afterlife matter, but I, and the Catholic Church, say not so. This is so much better explained as a purgatory sentence. Purgatory is a cleansing fire.]
Matthew 12:32
Whoever says anything against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever says anything against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
[To me this further indicates that certain sins will cause some to suffer punishment eternally, no doubt. However, more importantly, this indicates that there is forgiveness for some in the age to come. For who? Those in heaven? They need no more forgiveness? For those in hell? No, because hell is eternal and there is no forgiveness at that point. It is for those in purgatory in the age that still awaits them.]
Luke 7:47
I tell you, that is why her many sins are forgiven --- because of her great love. Little is forgiven the one whose love is small.
[To me, this points to a one having some sentence in Purgatory in the age to come. For those who forgave little on earth, God is saying he will forgive little when judging you. Hes not saying he will forgive nothing, but something. In other words, he is lessening your debt, not totally removing it, and not totally condemning either.]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
These passages above (and many others not posted here) are demanding more than just faith from us, more than just accepting Jesus as our Savior. To think we are allowed into heaven without anything more than just accepting some idea as truth, and then having license to live our life as wantonly as desired is an abomination. You may not be condemned for your carelessness, but you will be purified for it. Nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom. (Revelations 21:27)
Addendum:
Saint Frances of Rome (1384 1440) not only saw purgatory but visited it, witnessed the souls who suffered there, and told of its three regions. She also visited hell, saw its frightening torments, and reported of its horror, disorder, despair and eternal darkness. Of purgatory, she reported none of hell's finality, but instead told of divine hope and of souls that suffered greatly but were assisted by angels to withstand their torments.
Saint Frances further identified three separate areas of purgatory where souls had been placed in proportion to the time required to atone for their sins. Lower purgatory is filled with fire, though not a dark fire as in hell. Intermediate purgatory possesses three chambers containing either ice, boiling oil or molten metal. And she further related the existence of an upper purgatory where souls that are closest to deliverance suffer only the pain of loss.
From Arguments Against Purgatory Considered by Kevin Tierney by Kevin Tierney
The concept of purgatory arose long after the Apostles. Id agree with this statement, if we change long after to long before. Jews have always prayed the Kaddish. This prayer, which reaffirms faith in God despite the mourner's loss, was thought to hasten the process of purification. So to claim the doctrine was invented long after the Apostles is utterly false. Granted, the Jews did not call it purgatory, but the basis is exactly the same. So the witness of this doctrine existed among the Jews long before the Apostles.
Addendum 2:
I am in the possession of pages and pages of documentations from saints, from visitors from purgatory to earth leaving visible signs and dictating manuscripts to pious visionaries. The books are spellbinding --- and surely true. But I do not see a reason to publish all that here, especially since I have enough trouble finding the time to speak to what I have posted already.
This immediate heaven or hell upon the moment of death is just too suddenly drastic, and horrifying. Especially when one begins to ponder what merits heaven and what merits hell. Is there an age of accountability for an 11 year old pagan? I mean, is there an exact day he becomes accountable for his soul and actions? One day, if he dies, he is save, and the next day, if he dies, he is condemned? This cannot be. Consequenltly, there are thousands or millions of scenarios of humanity where the situations of saved or unsaved are equally precarious and unsettling.
Yes, we may very well be saved by faith (accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior) but that does not mean we still may not have to be purified before we can enter heaven. Revelations says nothing defiled shall enter the Kingdom. It should be obvious that is not in reference to those going to hell, but those who are saved, yet still with many stains of sin on their souls after they accepted Christ or for other reasons. With a doctrine of purgatory, it allows for much, much more mercy from a merciful God. Far less people end up totally condemned.
The most astounding of all the Christian miracles in recent centuries was the miracle of the sun at Fatima, Portugal, October 13, 1917. Three young children who had been witnessing apparitions of the Virgin Mary prophesied three months in advance (July 13) that a great miracle would be performed by Our Lady for all those people present and doubting the children to see on October 13th. So on a very rainy, muddy gray Portugal day 70,000 people arrived at the Cova da Iria to see if the children were truly prophets. Soon after 12 noon the rain stopped and the gray skies were split in two by an incredible sun which was inexplicably viewable to the human eye without damage. It looked like a silver disc and started dancing. Bouncing up and down defying cosmic laws. Then it started spinning and shooting off rays of all kinds of colors across the sky and landscape changing the faces of the crowd to blue, yellow, green, etc. It carried on in this remarkable fashion for twelve minutes. For its grand finale the sun turned blood red grew in size and charged toward the earth greatly frightening all present. At the last moment it stopped and receded peacefully into the sky.
This was a miracle beyond doubt. There were no longer any skeptics present. All saw that which was astoundingly prophesied three months in advance to the day. The soaked muddy ground was bone dry after this occurrence as a secondary miracle. These facts were reported in the various newspapers including O Seculo, Lisbons largest, if one wants further verification. Mary told of other events as related by the children that also came true, if one wants further verification.
I report this for one purpose, specifically for Protestants. One of the children, Lucia, asked about a relative by name who recently died. The Virgin Mother said that woman was in purgatory and would be there for a long time. Question: How can a person of normal intelligence and reason doubt the supernatural nature of this event? Question: How can anyone who accepts this miracle then doubt the other words Our Lady gave to these children, very specifically the mention of purgatory?
Yes, purgatory exists and many nominal or lukewarm Christians should be eternally grateful for that because such lazy or sinful behavior does not warrant heaven. And many non believers may rejoice if they find themselves there as well. It is a place of suffering, loneliness and regret, but there is also an incredible gratitude and joy knowing that one day each soul in purgatory will be allowed into heaven.
The evidence for purgatory is far greater than the Fatima account. I submit below some Biblical verses which Catholic teaching, in many cases, regards as references to purgatory or a state of purification. Consider them for yourselves.
=====================================================
Matthew 5:23-26
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.
[Jesus is assuring us (truly I say to you) that we will pay (be imprisoned) for a portion our transgressions until we have paid the last penny if we do not forgive others or obey. The key word is UNTIL. It is clear that once we have paid for our sins, THEN we WILL be released from our prison. That is not Hell because Hell is eternal. This is not an earthly reference as many who are to be saved have died without fulfilling all the requirements this passage implies. This is referring to purgatory where you will be eventually released.]
Luke 12:45-48
"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk: the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
[The one slave who was not as guilty because he was somewhat ignorant of the gravity of his sins will receive less lashes. Note, he will still be punished, but not as severely. This is clearly not talking about hell, it is about some punishment that is less than eternal. It is purgatory once again. Different degrees of punishment which is how many have described it. Also, to whom more has been given (i.e. knowledge, riches, revelation, opportunity, etc.) more will be required; otherwise something consequential results. ]
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
[Saved, but still will suffer loss as yet through fire. Protestants can argue this is some earthly punishment, not an afterlife matter, but I, and the Catholic Church, say not so. This is so much better explained as a purgatory sentence. Purgatory is a cleansing fire.]
Matthew 12:32
Whoever says anything against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever says anything against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
[To me this further indicates that certain sins will cause some to suffer punishment eternally, no doubt. However, more importantly, this indicates that there is forgiveness for some in the age to come. For who? Those in heaven? They need no more forgiveness? For those in hell? No, because hell is eternal and there is no forgiveness at that point. It is for those in purgatory in the age that still awaits them.]
Luke 7:47
I tell you, that is why her many sins are forgiven --- because of her great love. Little is forgiven the one whose love is small.
[To me, this points to a one having some sentence in Purgatory in the age to come. For those who forgave little on earth, God is saying he will forgive little when judging you. Hes not saying he will forgive nothing, but something. In other words, he is lessening your debt, not totally removing it, and not totally condemning either.]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
These passages above (and many others not posted here) are demanding more than just faith from us, more than just accepting Jesus as our Savior. To think we are allowed into heaven without anything more than just accepting some idea as truth, and then having license to live our life as wantonly as desired is an abomination. You may not be condemned for your carelessness, but you will be purified for it. Nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom. (Revelations 21:27)
Addendum:
Saint Frances of Rome (1384 1440) not only saw purgatory but visited it, witnessed the souls who suffered there, and told of its three regions. She also visited hell, saw its frightening torments, and reported of its horror, disorder, despair and eternal darkness. Of purgatory, she reported none of hell's finality, but instead told of divine hope and of souls that suffered greatly but were assisted by angels to withstand their torments.
Saint Frances further identified three separate areas of purgatory where souls had been placed in proportion to the time required to atone for their sins. Lower purgatory is filled with fire, though not a dark fire as in hell. Intermediate purgatory possesses three chambers containing either ice, boiling oil or molten metal. And she further related the existence of an upper purgatory where souls that are closest to deliverance suffer only the pain of loss.
From Arguments Against Purgatory Considered by Kevin Tierney by Kevin Tierney
The concept of purgatory arose long after the Apostles. Id agree with this statement, if we change long after to long before. Jews have always prayed the Kaddish. This prayer, which reaffirms faith in God despite the mourner's loss, was thought to hasten the process of purification. So to claim the doctrine was invented long after the Apostles is utterly false. Granted, the Jews did not call it purgatory, but the basis is exactly the same. So the witness of this doctrine existed among the Jews long before the Apostles.
Addendum 2:
I am in the possession of pages and pages of documentations from saints, from visitors from purgatory to earth leaving visible signs and dictating manuscripts to pious visionaries. The books are spellbinding --- and surely true. But I do not see a reason to publish all that here, especially since I have enough trouble finding the time to speak to what I have posted already.