Zone1 No one "is" saved. Some are BEING saved or WILL be saved in the future

14 Reasons Roman Catholics Are Not Saved​



14-reasons-roman-catholics-are-not-saved.png

James Durham
Commentary on Revelation, vol. 3
Excursus 25, Part 2, pp. 186-187, 195-203.​

Concerning the Difficulty of Salvation Under Popery.​

Doctrine: A Papist, as such, living and dying according to the complex principles of the doctrine and worship that is followed in Popery, cannot be saved, nor expect justification before God.
I say, a Papist, living and dying according to the essential principles of Popery, which do especially relate to these three:



2. To their way of carrying on the justification and salvation of a sinner before God, as it is held forth in their doctrine.

3. To their manner of worship, that is, praying to saints, worshiping of images, sacrifice of the Mass, and other such things, owned both by the doctrine, laws and practice of that church.


We say, one living and dying devoted to these, although neither scandalous in outward practices, nor defective in respect of external painfulness; yet upon this account, as being a Papist, chargeable with the three general heads aforesaid, he cannot but be liable to God’s judgment, and die without any solid hope of being saved by these principles.
. . .
If it be yet required, that further satisfaction be given as to the grounds which render their salvation impossible. We do answer that it arises from these two, which do infallibly demonstrate the same.


1. This way of Popery is of itself exceeding sinful, and abominable before the Lord, and so does in more than an ordinary manner make a person liable to His wrath.

2. As it is of itself sinful, so it has no solid way laid down for removing of sin, but does leave a man without any solid hope of relief from his original and actual sins, beside that it incapacitates him to look upon itself as sinful, or to seek for the right remedy thereof.


And where these two are put together, to wit, heinous sin and no way to remove it, or any other, what can be expected but inevitable ruin and condemnation? For where the disease is deadly, and the cure naught, death must be certain. We shall therefore make out both these assertions, from which the conclusion laid cannot but follow.
. . .
Let us now enquire, if according to the former grounds [i.e. Rome’s doctrine], a sinner, that is pursued by the Law, may with confidence expect to be justified and absolved before the Tribunal of God’s justice. And we confidently assert that according to these grounds no flesh living can be justified, which this one argument may make out: No sinner can expect justification or pardon of sin but according to the grounds and terms laid down in the Gospel. But this way is not such. Ergo, etc. Or: That contrivance of justification which does overturn almost fully, most, if not all the truths of the Gospel, and is utterly inconsistent with the same, cannot be the way how a sinner may be justified. But this is such, etc.
For making out of this, we shall, 1. Propose some general considerations. 2. More particularly touch some inconsistencies of the same. 3. Remove some objections. And, 4. Resume the conclusion.

Rome’s False Religion vs. the True Religion of Jehovah.​

1. The Covenant of Works vs. The Covenant of Grace.​

The first general we propose to be considered is that the way which God has laid down in the Gospel for attaining of life by Christ Jesus does formally differ from that way of attaining life that He propounded to Adam. Hence these two Covenants of Works and Grace and their conditions are frequently and directly opposed in the Scripture as being different and opposite in respect of the account upon which men were to expect life (cf. Rom. 10.6-7, etc. Gal. 3) But this [Roman Catholic] way laid down, is in matter and form the same with the Covenant of Works in this respect, because it founds a man’s hope of expecting life and heaven upon the merit of his own works and his observing of the commands, which these their grounds do confirm.
1. That they do compare his working and merit by it, to Adam’s before he fell, and supposeth this to succeed now in the room of that, as in the forecited author (lib. 12, cap. 19, p. 487), is clear.
2. That they state the terms of life in these words, “If thou would enter life, keep the commands, and cast the laborers to receive their hire” (Mat. 20:8). And so from this they say, Christ’s merits have procured the Lord’s re-entering of a Covenant with us, wherein He promises happiness to our working as the condition thereof (ibid. p. 488), and says there is no promise of the reception of a sinner but upon this account. And,
3. That they say the way now to life has the same threatenings and promises that the first had, and so they conclude [that] it is the same with it. And although they acknowledge Christ to have merited this promise to be made, and this grace to be given us whereby we may keep it, yet does that infer no alteration of the way or terms held out in that promise in respect of the condition thereof, although it shows a different ground upon which it is built, and from which it flows. If therefore the Covenants differ, and a sinner cannot now obtain life upon that same condition, and upon the same way that Adam did (even though he be habitually renewed), then can he not come to obtain life in this way laid down. But to say the former, were to continue the Covenant of Works, and exclude the Covenant of Grace. This way, therefore, to life is utterly impossible.

2. The Sufficiency of Christ.​

2. If by the strain of the Gospel, Christ Jesus be made all to us in respect of our peace and happiness, and that immediately (that is, without the intervening of any new merit occasioned by His merit), then the former way cannot be consistent with the Gospel, because immediately infused grace is made our formal righteousness or first justification; and our actual good works, are made our merit or second justification. And these two are inconsistent together. For Christ cannot immediately be our righteousness (as we stand before God), and inherent grace and good works also be immediately the same.
Because according to the first, if it be asked of the sinner: ‘What is thy righteousness by which immediately thou darest appear before God or expect absolution and heaven from him?’ He is to answer, ‘Christ and His satisfaction offered to me in the Gospel and by Faith received, this is the defense I mind to shelter myself with at the bar of His justice, and by which I expect to be saved.’ According to the last he were to answer that former question thus, ‘Inherent Grace is that which maketh me acceptable to God, and my good works, and their condign merit is that upon which I expect heaven according to His promise made thereto.’ Which certainly would relish most uncomfortably to a challenged sinner, and is contrary to the former. But the former is true, that by the Gospel Christ Jesus is immediately made our righteousness, by whose merits we may have only confidence to appear before God, to expect remission and salvation from Him according to that Scripture, “He is made to us of God wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption” (1 Cor. 1:30). “Christ is all” (Col. 3:11), which is expressly mentioned in opposition to circumcision and uncircumcision, and everything else, which are not admitted to be anything to the believer in the former respects, but Christ alone (Phil. 3:8-9).

3. The Imputation of Christ’s Righteousness.​

3. God’s contrivance of the Gospel for the justifying of a sinner through Christ Jesus, is clearly holden out to be by a judicial transferring of our sins as a debt upon Christ the Cautioner, and of His righteousness and merit to us, to be imputed for our justification before God, without any respect had to our inherent holiness or good works, whether done before or after justification. This may appear from these two places:

2 Corinthians 5:21​

First, in 2 Corinthians 5:21, that Christ is said to be made sin for us, that we may be made the righteousness of God through Him—where this is clear: that by the Covenant of Redemption we are to be righteous by Christ, as Christ was sin for us. But Christ was made sin or sentenced by justice for it, not by any infusion of sinful habits (which were blasphemous to think) but by having imputed to Him the guilt of our sin in respect of the punishment thereof. It will follow therefore that He is our righteousness, or we are justified or made just by Him, by having His righteousness imputed to us and accepted as performed in our name without laying the weight upon any inherent qualification in us. And can there be a more clear way to expound what this is to be “made just” by Christ, than by its opposite, what it is to be “made sin” for us?

Philippians 3:8-9​

The second place is Philippians 3:8-9, where Paul is seeking to be in readiness for appearing before God’s tribunal, and he was one who wanted not inherent grace or actually good works, and in a great measure, yet in reference to God’s acceptance he can rest nowhere but in Christ, not having his own righteousness, which is of the Law, but that righteousness which is by faith in Christ—where we have:
1. Paul, looking on a righteousness within him, which was his own, and that at the highest pitch of it (for, it respects any posterior time when he might be called to a reckoning). This righteousness he disclaims as not being that which would be accepted.
2. He looks to a righteousness without him in Christ Jesus, which he considers as being the only shelter, even of a believer, from the wrath of God. So that if the question be proposed to Paul, What will thou choose to lippen [trust] unto? Where will thou choose to be found on the Day of Judgement? His answer would be, only in Christ. If it be asked what this is? He answers, it is to have His righteousness in opposition to his own. If it be again asked how he comes by it? He shows by faith in Christ he comes to partake of His righteousness, which he dare lippen [trust] more unto than to his own. Whereby it appears that the Gospel’s way of justifying a sinner is by imputing of Christ’s righteousness, and by a sinner’s resting upon it. For, this righteousness is not that which is procured by Christ and is inherently in the believer, but is that which is in Christ, and whereof the believer partakes by hiding himself under it, and by his faith opposing it to justice, which can be done no other way than by imputation.
Now there being nothing more opposite to the imputation of Christ’s righteousness than the former doctrine [of Rome], there can be nothing more opposite to the way of the Gospel. And so if it be impossible to be justified without the imputation of Christ’s righteousness, it is impossible to be justified by the way of the Papists.

4. God Covenants With Sinners For Their Salvation.​

4. The Scripture holds forth God’s way of reconciling sinners to Himself, to be by way of covenanting, as Isaiah 55:2-3 wherein God offers, and the hearer receives and closes with His offer, upon which follows God’s acceptance of the person (as Job 1:12; Heb. 8; Jer. 31) and his being reconciled to God. Hence there is so much spoken of covenanting in Scripture, that the whole doctrine thereof bears that name of Covenant, or, Testament, and one that closes with it cannot but be justified. Now, by this doctrine of justification by inherent grace, or merit of works, there is no place left for such covenanting upon such terms. Yea, they are inconsistent together. Therefore this cannot be the way of making up the breach between God and a sinner.

5. Justification by Faith.​

5. That justification, which the Gospel speaks of, is that wherein faith has a peculiar causality beyond any other grace, as that which does entitle a sinner unto pardon and justification by the virtue of Christ’s righteousness, which it does take hold of. Hence it is that so frequently in Scripture it is called “justification by faith,” and that, as opposite to all other graces in that respect, the “righteousness which is of faith,” and such like. Now, the former [Roman Catholic] way is utterly inconsistent with this, therefore cannot be the way to salvation. And considering, that covenanting with God, imputation of Christ’s righteousness, justification by faith, etc. are things so essential unto the up-making of a sinner’s breach with God, and that yet all of them are so great strangers (even in the very name) to the Popish way of justification, and materially inconsistent with the same: It cannot be of God.

Particular Ways Rome’s False Gospel Overturns The True Gospel.​

1. It Overturns the Nature of Justification.​

1. More particularly, we will find it overturns the nature of justification, and at best it does put in sanctification in the room thereof. And there is never any distinct ground laid by which a sinner may come to receive a sentence of absolution before God, but this, to wit, justification, is lost by the former doctrine [of Rome]. And they acknowledge no such thing distinct from regeneration or sanctification, as if no such act as justification were needful or mentioned in Scripture as distinct from these. And in effect it leaves a sinner to a way of salvation that wants justification in it, and therefore cannot profit him. For by denying that which is the formal cause of justification, they deny justification itself, seeing that gives it a being.

2. Rome’s False Gospel Perverts the Nature of Grace.​

2. It derogates from the nature of grace, and that in several respects. 1. As to grace’s efficacy, that it hangs at man’s free will. 2. As to its sovereignty, that it bounds it to man’s disposing of himself. 3. As to its freedom, in that it appoints man’s own satisfaction for the removing of punishment, and his own merit for the obtaining of reward. And 4. As to its spiritual sublime way of working, making it carnally to be conferred ex opere operato.

3. Rome’s False Gospel Undermines Christ’s Merit.​

3. It enervates the merit of Christ: For, at the best it attributes to that only the restoring of a Covenant of Works, which may be entered, kept, and broken according to men’s working. And, as it were, the procuring to men a new stock of habitual grace, with which they are to trade and procure their own happiness by their after merit. In reference to which if they fail, Christ’s merit, and their habitual grace will not profit them. Therefore the weight of obtaining life is laid there.
But the removing of the punishment, and the obtaining of the reward, they ascribe to human satisfaction and good works. And that by reason of their own intrinsic worth, without the imputation of Christ’s merit, except in respect of the general influence formerly alleged. Yea, they fear not to call saints their redeemers, in so far as by their works of Supererogation they suppose them to have satisfied in something for them, as Bellarmine asserts (lib. 1, de indulg., cap. 4, col. 1161). And at most they are sanctified by Christ’s merit, but after [all] that they do for themselves.

4. Rome’s False Gospel Maligns Christ Himself.​

4. It wrongs the Lord Himself. 1. In His grace, as has been said. 2. In His justice, as if He were to be satisfied by creature’s satisfaction, and that in such things as many men would not be pleased with. Yea, they scare not to affirm that such holiness could not but have satisfied Him and merited, although Christ had never suffered—which shows also how little they respect Christ’s merit, as the forecited Suárez (pp. 484, 486) asserts. 3. It wrongs His sovereignty, in that it ties Him in proper justice to be man’s debtor. And that not by virtue of His promise only, but from the consideration of the intrinsic value and merit of men’s good works—as if He were not just if He did not reward them.

5. Rome’s False Gospel Abuses God’s Covenant.​

5. It wrongs God’s Covenant. For either it allows no Covenant at all, or quite alters the nature and terms thereof, and turns it to works, as has been said. For it still makes the stipulation on man’s part the same which constitutes the form of the Covenant of Works—however one be enabled to perform that stipulation, which certainly was by Grace, even to Adam.

6. Rome’s False Gospel Undermines Faith.​

6. It enervates faith, excluding altogether that faith that receives Christ and takes hold on Him, and closes with the Covenant of Grace. And [it] leaves no more to a believer, but a naked assent to the truth of God, which is in the devils (James 2:19); and utterly secludes faith from any particularity of application in the making of our peace with God in any respect.

7. Rome’s False Gospel Overturns the Reality of Man’s Natural Estate.​

7. It overturns the truth concerning man’s natural estate: in giving him a free-will in reference to spiritual good, and that before the infusion of grace, and in making this acting of free-will a necessary disposition to justification and a necessary condition of merit.

8. Rome’s False Gospel Corrupts the Law of God.​

8. It corrupts the holy Law of God. 1. In its end, as if now it were to be the condition of God’s Covenant upon which life is to be attained. 2. In its meaning, as if it did not condemn natural concupiscence. And many other things are exempted by them from it, that they may make the fulfilling thereof possible.

9. Rome’s False Gospel Denies the True Nature of Sin.​

9. It denies the true nature of sin, and makes many things that are contrary to the Law of God to be no sin. As by its exclusion of the remains of original sin, and many others (by that fond distinction of venial and mortal sins) from being accounted sins that make men liable to eternal wrath.

10. Rome’s False Gospel Overturns the Nature of the Sacraments.​

10. It overturns the nature of the Sacraments. 1. In making these to be Sacraments which are not, as penance, extreme unction, etc. 2. In attributing other ends and another manner of attaining to these ends than agrees with the Word, or can quiet a conscience in reference thereto, as the conferring of grace ex opere operato.

11. Rome’s False Gospel Destroys Church Discipline.​

11. It does not leave discipline undestroyed. For it abuses the power of the keys in this absolution, to make up a Sacrament and confer grace, and give indulgences, and suchlike, which no sober man will think a sufficient way for founding of his peace, or to be a defense against a challenge in the Day of Judgment.

12. Rome’s False Gospel Overturns Assurance of Salvation.​

12. It does altogether overturn that consolation that God allows His people. For, 1. There is great anxiety in the supposed way of attaining it. 2. No certainty of having it, and so it can yield comfort to no one. 3. According to their principles, it may be lost, and one that is justified today, may be in a state of damnation tomorrow. 4. It makes their recovery difficult and almost desperate. For (as Bellarmine in the forecited place asserts) it may have with it 20,000 years continuance in Purgatory. Of this uncomfortableness, and of all this matter, more may be seen in chapter 9, lecture 1.

13. Rome’s False Gospel Causes Ignorance.​

13. It excludes knowledge, and cries up ignorance. So that Bellarmine (lib. de Justific.) does not fear to say that faith ought rather to be defined by ignorance than knowledge, per ignorantiam potius quam per notitiam.

14. Rome’s False Gospel Corrupts the Nature of Holiness.​

14. It overturns and corrupts the nature of holiness and good works, and all spiritual worship, putting in, I cannot tell what will-worship, external rites, etc. in the place of all practice, mumbling and muttering unknown words for prayer, afflicting of the body for mortification, and many such like things have they.
These are but a part of the horrible absurdities of this way, and yet we suppose are sufficient to demonstrate the truth of what we assert, to wit, that this way is involved with many fundamental inconsistencies with the truth and way of the gospel, and so cannot be a possible way of attaining salvation. For it makes men to count many sins not to be sins, and so never to repent of them. The sins that it discovers, it leads them not to the right satisfaction, which only can be accepted for them, to wit, Christ’s righteousness, but to their own inherent holiness and good works. Yea, even this they corrupt; and what they account saving grace, as faith, repentance, humility and such like, are nothing less than such indeed before God.

Can Roman Catholics Be Saved?​

If it be again further asked: What then are we to esteem of such as lived under Popery, if all of them are excluded from the obtaining of salvation? We answer with a fourfold distinction.

1. Subjects of Rome vs. Her Persecuted & Captives.​

1. We would distinguish these who might live under Popery, and yet be kept from the infection thereof and no way belong to that body, from the native members thereof. Of such we have spoken in chapters 11-12. To such the Lord speaks, “Come out of Babylon, my people” (Rev. 18:4). Such were rather captives under her tyranny, than subjects of her kingdom. Of these there is no question, but as the Lord sealed them for Himself (Rev. 7:3-8), so did He always singularly own them and accept them.

2. Antichristian Papists vs. Superstitious Papists.​

2. We may distinguish Papists in these that are antichristian worshippers, and others who are superstitious, and in some things are erroneous.

Antichristian Papists.​

We call them Antichristian who 1. Receive the beast’s mark and number, and give him worship in more than an human manner, ascribing to him a certain divinity, infallibility, universal supremacy, and such like Antichristian attributes. And who, 2. Receive his doctrine in the complex contrivance thereof, which is his number (i.e. 666). And, 3. Who join in his worship wherein it is Antichristian: as praying to saints, worshiping of images, adoration of the Mass, and such like. These in the former assertion we have excluded.

Superstitious Papists.​

Again, we call them superstitious Papists, who might not altogether have kept a distance from that church in everything, but many ways have been tainted with their superstitions yet so as to be kept from an Antichristian conjunction with that society or union therewith in things that are plainly Antichristian—but might be testifying against such by some sincere zeal and pure light. Thus,
1. We suppose that many did give some reverence to the Popes, who yet did utterly abhor their gross usurpations and blasphemies, his assuming to himself what was proper to God and Jesus Christ. And detest the base flatteries of others that ascribed these to him, as to be supreme head of all, and that both in civil and ecclesiastical things, to be infallible, to be accountable to none, to authorize traditions, and such like. And [superstitious Papists] might only give him some reverence, either from human policy and ecclesiastical constitutions, such as was given to Archbishops, Patriarchs, etc. or, they might esteem him (though erroneously and ignorantly) to be a church officer, for meddling with things incumbent to church officers to meddle in, without any opinion of his illimited or absolute power, even as men might err in accounting Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, etc. of divine authority, although they might disclaim Antichristian tyrannous usurpation and practices in them, and seek only to have that power subservient to edification.
2. Further in fundamental doctrines they may be pure, although not altogether without errors, even as were many of the [Early Church] Fathers.
3. In worship they might join many superstitious rites, as crosses, altars, bowings, etc., yet abstain from worshiping of saints and idols, and from accounting the Mass a propitiatory sacrifice, although they might join in the Eucharist, and such like. Of such sort were Jean Gerson, Bernard of Clairvaux, and some others in the midst of Popish darkness, who were not altogether free of these superstitions, yet still did check the Popish pride and usurpation, and bound their authority, and preserved the doctrine of remission of sins through faith in Christ’s righteousness pure, and pressed holiness in some spiritual manner, even in the midst of many superstitions that abounded. And whereof they were not altogether free.
We suppose these last [superstitious Papists] are no way to be classed with the former [i.e. captives under Rome], but might have had access to God’s mercy through Christ Jesus. Because 1. Although they had errors, yet were they not such as were inconsistent with sincerity and the nature of the administration of grace. And 2. Because they kept the way of attaining pardon through Christ Jesus clear, which being followed by them in their practice (as no doubt it was by many) might, through God’s gracious dealing with them, make them acceptable before Him, so that their failings being of infirmity and not of malice, might not be imputed to them. But they, accepted as penitents, being sincerely affected with what they conceived to dishonor God, although they did not discern everything that was sin against Him.

3. Deathbed Converts Away From Rome and to Christ.​

We would distinguish Papists living so and dying so, from such, as though living so, might yet by God’s grace have repentance conferred upon them at their death. This has been found by experience, that many who have been tenacious of the doctrines and superstitions of Popery in their life, have been yet at their death brought to abhor them, and to betake them to the righteousness of Christ alone for their justification. These, where that repentance and faith were true (as no question often it was) are no way to be excluded, or accounted worshippers of the Beast.

4. Times Before The Reformation and Witness Against the Antichrist.​

Distinguish times—something might through God’s grace be more dispensed with in these times of more universal darkness, than afterward in the breaking out of light, and in God’s erecting a standard for His truth in the earth, and bringing forth a visible church state for His people to join in, which formerly was not. Hence, communion in church fellowship with the Church of Rome is much more dangerous now than formerly: which will appear upon these considerations:

Four Reasons Communion With Rome is More Dangerous After the Protestant Reformation.

1. God Threatens Harsher Punishment.​

1. Because the Lord does more peremptorily now threaten her and her followers, and adds more severe certifications to the same, as we may see in this place. Now, this is proclaimed, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God.” (Rev. 14:9b-10a). And again, “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” (Rev. 18:4).

2. God Provided a Means of Escape.​

2. Their stay now is more unexcusable, because the Lord has opened a door of freedom, and they refuse it. Even as the people’s stay in Babylon while the Captivity lasted was not imputed to them, yet staying after the proclaimed liberty was detested. And having with it ingratitude against their Redeemer, and despising of their redemption offered, and a willing submission to that bondage—contrary to the warnings and advertisements given them, and God’s call to abandon the same (Ezra 1:4-6; Jer. 50:8; 51:6, 9-10; Isa. 52:11; Zech. 2:6-7).

3. Rome is More Deadly Now Than Before.​

3. After this also, things in the doctrine and worship of the Church of Rome became more deadly. For Babylon refused to be cured, and in the Lord’s righteous judgment it came to pass that their doctrines became more corrupt, that thereby He might punish their contempt of, and enmity at, the light which He had made to shine. Hence it is that the later Schoolmen, especially the Jesuits, are more corrupt than the former, as may be marked in the writings of diverse Schoolmen upon Thomas who do mutilate and corrupt many things in him; so as they may agree with the late determinations of the Pope, and the Council of Trent, and may be most opposite to those they call heretics. An instance whereof may be seen in Cajetan (in 3 Thoma, qu. 48, art. 5) where explaining that assertion of Thomas, that only Christ ought to be called our Redeemer (which formerly we had Bellarmine contradicting) he lays down, for the qualifying thereof, that bull of Leo X concerning indulgences and the application of the saints’ purchases to others which was sent to him when he was his legate in Germany, and forces such a sense upon Thomas as might agree with it. Thus also (as we may see) was done in the Council of Trent, wherever in all debates among divines the most corrupt side was inclined to and concluded.

4. There is no Basis to Expect Salvation in Rome.​

4. Remaining in Popery now has more contempt with it of God’s calling, and has greater snares, as is said. And therefore has less ground now either to expect preservation from sin or wrath, because God’s call requires separation now more fully, and in a more distinct manner than formerly He did. As, “Come out of her, my people, be not partakers of her sin, lest ye partake of her plagues” (Rev. 18:4), which holds forth a special hazard in reference both to sin and wrath, after the Lord’s making this to be proclaimed more than formerly it was.
 
catholics absolutely will not go to heaven; believing in works to get you saved certainly will send you to hell.
Will murderers go to Heaven? Will prostitutes? Thieves hanging on a cross? What church did the thief follow? Did Christ ask him?

There are 45 thousand denominations and 2 billion Christians that believe that only their church gets it right. Which of the 45 thousand is the only one that does know it all and will be accepted into Heaven to the exclusion of all the others? Which one did Christ tell us to follow? How much more is God's grace than our ignorance?
 
No one "is" saved. Some are BEING saved or WILL be saved in the future
Even before I studied my Faith, a project that began many years ago and continues, it always sounded like fingernails on a chalkboard to hear someone ask: Are you saved?

Salvation is a process that ends in death, and not even then if the person ends up in Purgatory and 99% of us do, according to saints and (other) theologians. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" we are told in Philippians 2:12

There are many scriptures that say "will be saved." I will try to find them but you can find them as easily as I can.

Here's one from memory: "He who endures until the end WILL BE SAVED" (emphasis mine)

So we see that: Even enduring to the very end with Christ does not mean you ARE saved, but that some time in the future you will be. "Will be" is future - tense, not present-tense.

(another Purgatory affirming Scripture)
This is no conformation of Purgatory........which does not exist in the Word of God's actual content. Every Christian is saved within the context of a FUTURE TENSE.

Salvation is for the Human Soul, not the human flesh. Salvation comes after this life is over.........in this life you are measured by the content of the Books, the book of life and the Word of God as delivered by Christ Jesus. (Rev. 20:12) We are commanded not to go beyond the written Word. (1 Cor. 4:6) Its simple...........show us the WORD PURGATORY in the Word of God.........show us the slightest hint of being able to pray for others after they meet their appointed time with the GRAVE. Jesus Christ declares there are no prayers to be accepted for anyone in HADES (the Grave.........the realm where all souls, both good and evil await the final judgment)......Luke 16:19-31. The rich man wanted someone to warn his living brothers about the Grave and the final judgment...........the scriptures declared that it was impossible.

The scriptures are clear with no ambiguity whatsoever.........our chance to please God and be rewarded with "SALVATION" comes while we are alive....after death, comes the Judgment.

"And it is appointed onto man to die ONCE, but after this the judgment." -- Hebrews 9:27. "For we must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." -- 2 Cor. 5:10

The wisest man in the scriptures knew and comprehended there was no forgiveness after death. "Whatever your hands find to do, do it with your might; FOR THERE IS NO WORK OR DEVISE OR KNOWLEDGE OR WISDOM IN THE GRAVE (hades.....as described by Jesus Christ in parable -- Luke 16, when the rich man died)......where YOU ARE GOING (all men must meet the grave)" -- Eccl. 9:10

Life is compared to a race.....with the prize of salvation won, only after the race is over, but you must race to the end and content earnestly for the prize. You can and will be lost eternally if you fail to run the race of life in a righteous manner........its a daily struggle to bring the flesh into submission (1 Cor. 9:21-27) Even Paul feared being disqualified from the race to obtain salvation.
 
Last edited:
Will murderers go to Heaven? Will prostitutes? Thieves hanging on a cross? What church did the thief follow? Did Christ ask him?

There are 45 thousand denominations and 2 billion Christians that believe that only their church gets it right. Which of the 45 thousand is the only one that does know it all and will be accepted into Heaven to the exclusion of all the others? Which one did Christ tell us to follow? How much more is God's grace than our ignorance?
The thief on the cross went to HADES as do all men. Jesus stated that He would be with this thief in Paradise on this day. Jesus went and preached to the souls in hades during the 3 days His body was in the grave.....He traveled to Hades IN SPIRIT. -- 1 Peter 3:19-20

Jesus describes Hades as being a realm with 2 different dominions.........one for the good, who go to wait the final judgment in the bosom of Abraham (i.e, this realm is paradise to the righteous).......another place where the evil await the final judgement in torment. (Luke 16:19-31)

Why was the thief sent to paradise? God in the flesh......God in the form of the Christ personally forgave him (the thief) of his sins. Today.........Jesus will not leave His throne and crown in heaven to personally forgive anyone of their sins. The N.T. covenant did not come into effect until after the death of Jesus Christ.....thus, Jesus saved this thief as God had saved others under the terms of the Law and the prophets.......by finding favor with God. Today we are living by GRACE with the kingdom of God residing in the heart of those who believe (Luke 17:21)

(Jesus) instructed Peter and left him with the keys to the kingdom of Heaven (Matt.16)....Peter informed everyone from that time forward what must be done to enter (use the keys) the kingdom of God. "Repent and Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ............and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" -- Acts 2:38.....that gift? Instructions of salvation.....found in the Word of God, as the Holy Spirit inspired all scripture (2 Tim. 3:16-17) and provides all men with all the knowledge required to live a godly life.
 
Last edited:
Christ and the thief did not go to hell. They went to Paradise which was separated from hell by a deep chasm. Two completely different environments. It was also called Abraham's Bosom. It was where the souls of those who favored God comfortably waited for Christ to rid them of their sin. From Paradise, Jesus spoke to those in hell. We have no information of the substance of what Jesus said to them.
But when Jesus returned top side, He returned with those from Paradise. Their graves opened up with the earthquake. They reclaimed their now glorified bodies and stayed here for 40 days. They accompanied Christ when He ascended. The souls in hell are still there and will be called up after the millennium reign of Christ, at the White Throne Judgment.

Christ came and took the sin of the world away so that man would not go to Hell. THAT was the point. He salvaged us at great cost. Absent from the body is present with the Lord now. There is no need for a waiting room/Paradise, or a stint in hell. If you believe in Christ you go straight up.
 
Christ and the thief did not go to hell. They went to Paradise which was separated from hell by a deep chasm. Two completely different environments. It was also called Abraham's Bosom. It was where the souls of those who favored God comfortably waited for Christ to rid them of their sin. From Paradise, Jesus spoke to those in hell. We have no information of the substance of what Jesus said to them.
But when Jesus returned top side, He returned with those from Paradise. Their graves opened up with the earthquake. They reclaimed their now glorified bodies and stayed here for 40 days. They accompanied Christ when He ascended. The souls in hell are still there and will be called up after the millennium reign of Christ, at the White Throne Judgment.

Christ came and took the sin of the world away so that man would not go to Hell. THAT was the point. He salvaged us at great cost. Absent from the body is present with the Lord now. There is no need for a waiting room/Paradise, or a stint in hell. If you believe in Christ you go straight up.
Hell is the realm reserved by God for Satan and His disciples. (Rev. 20:10). Hades is the GRAVE, as in "My Kingdom will stand against the gates of Hades". (Matthew 16......Jesus' mission was to defeat the grave and death that was introduced by Satan). Jesus final triumph will be to defeat DEATH.....His last enemy (1 Cor.5:23-27), the kingdom then returns to the Father. Hades is described in detail Luke 16:19-31.........it consists of 2 different dominions, 1 reserved for the unrighteous and 1 where the righteous spirits reside awaiting the final judgment in the bosom of Abraham....also known as Paradise.

Some early translations confused Hell and Hades.........but the scriptures are clear, Jesus went in the form of a Spirit to preach to the souls in Hades while His body was in the grave.
The blood of Jesus flows backward in History to cover the righteous dead in the grave that obeyed the Law and prophets....that had no method for eternal salvation as Jesus was providing by GRACE. (1 Peter 3:18-20) Peter declares that it is the living water of Jesus that saves the historical righteous dead as it is the water of baptism in the N.T. that resembles the 8 saved by water (Noah and His family).

The RCC wants to confuse Jesus' mission into Hades by claiming that anyone can pray for the souls of the deceased......even the wicked, they falsely label this doctrine Purgatory where the dead can be forgiven of their sinful lives after death. Jesus did not go to hades to save the wicked but those who were under the law that lived a righteous life as explained in Luke 16, the evil dead and the righteous dead are eternally separated with no hope of the 2 coming together, as a great void exists between the 2 dominions of Hades.

The Law and the prophets had no remedy for sin..........those under the law made annual burnt animal sacrifices to carry sin over from season to the next as directed by the royal priesthood from the tribe of Levi who was appointed by God with oversight of these sacrifices. The problem with the Old Law does not rest with God.....but with man who continually disobeyed the righteous oracles (laws) of God. Such is recorded by the prophet Jeremiah when he details the need for a new covenant because man could not live up to the standards of the Law. (Jer. 31:31-34)..........a covenant written on the hearts of men instead of on stone would be introduced first to the Jews, then to the world.

The scriptures detail, the Law carried no permanent remedy for sin.....thus the reason for the New Testament Covenant of Grace. (Romans 7:7-13, Gal. 4:21-5:4)
 
Last edited:
Will murderers go to Heaven? Will prostitutes? Thieves hanging on a cross? What church did the thief follow? Did Christ ask him?

There are 45 thousand denominations and 2 billion Christians that believe that only their church gets it right. Which of the 45 thousand is the only one that does know it all and will be accepted into Heaven to the exclusion of all the others? Which one did Christ tell us to follow? How much more is God's grace than our ignorance?
re read my post- you missed the last part- nobody, regardless of denomination is saved by works- yet rc's jw's muslims sda's etc think works save them. catholics are not saved- if they were they wouldnt be catholics anymore. I'm a born again Christian, saved by the blood. Catholics are not because they dont trust in Jesus alone.
 
Will murderers go to Heaven? Will prostitutes? Thieves hanging on a cross? What church did the thief follow? Did Christ ask him?

There are 45 thousand denominations and 2 billion Christians that believe that only their church gets it right. Which of the 45 thousand is the only one that does know it all and will be accepted into Heaven to the exclusion of all the others? Which one did Christ tell us to follow? How much more is God's grace than our ignorance?
the thief didnt worship mary, pray to the dead and rosary, believe in works salvation. he simply trusted in Christ. thats the point.
 
the thief didnt worship mary, pray to the dead and rosary, believe in works salvation. he simply trusted in Christ. thats the point.
Worse, he worshiped Baal, prayed to the sun, and didn't give his salvation a thought.

The Catholics I know worship God, know that Christ is their Savior, and the work they do is what Jesus told them to do. They were raised to do unto others the way they would like to be treated, and have lived exemplary lives. They love God, Jesus, and their neighbors.
Will praying in rote keep them from their Father? Will they be condemned for eternity for believing in Purgatory? For eating meat on Fri? For falling for false doctrine? For not getting it completely right?

Romans 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​


You don't think Christ will forgive them for not understanding Him entirely?
 
Last edited:
It looks like Irish Ram has had some kind of wake-up moment or what have you. Those are always interesting because to me, they appear to be extremely RARE.

In any case, another poster here says that Catholics are not saved.

It always struck me as the height of arrogance for anyone, anyone at all, to say that anyone else is not saved.

I mean, I see a serious problem there.... Can that poster not see the problem?

Jesus said "Judge not, lest you be judged, for by what measure you mete [judge], so shall it be meted unto you."
 



I will choose to trust Scripture over some unbeliever on the internet

The so called Cultist scriptures are just like today's Fake News .

Cherry picked , mistranslated and falsified .
Constantine and Nicea in 325 AD was the biggest scam .

Fortunately Cult Christianity is fast disappearing and it looks as though we will embrace greater upcoming spiritual awareness and wisdom -----to replace the mumbo jumbo of present times .
 
The so called Cultist scriptures are just like today's Fake News .

Cherry picked , mistranslated and falsified .
Constantine and Nicea in 325 AD was the biggest scam .

Fortunately Cult Christianity is fast disappearing and it looks as though we will embrace greater upcoming spiritual awareness and wisdom -----to replace the mumbo jumbo of present times .
Why are you even on this thread? It's not about your beliefs or lack thereof.
 
Worse, he worshiped Baal, prayed to the sun, and didn't give his salvation a thought.

The Catholics I know worship God, know that Christ is their Savior, and the work they do is what Jesus told them to do. They were raised to do unto others the way they would like to be treated, and have lived exemplary lives. They love God, Jesus, and their neighbors.
Will praying in rote keep them from their Father? Will they be condemned for eternity for believing in Purgatory? For eating meat on Fri? For falling for false doctrine? For not getting it completely right?

Romans 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​


You don't think Christ will forgive them for not understanding Him entirely?
A Summary Chart of the differences between Biblical Truth and Catholicism


by Richard Bennett


“Thy Word is Truth”
John 17:17





Biblical Truth
The Light of God’s Word

Topic
New Catechism
Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)
The Bible only is the Standard for Truth

“....the scripture cannot be broken.” John. 10:35
“Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.” John. 17:17
“That ye might learn in us not to think...above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” 1 Corinthians 4:6
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs. 30:6
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered...” Mark. 7:13​

The Basis
of

Truth
Truth is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Pope
Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other.” Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) Para 80
And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. CCC Para 81
“As a result the [Roman Catholic] Church...does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” CCC Para 82
The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful...he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such.” CCC Para 891​
Salvation is by Grace Alone Through Faith


Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:24
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8, 9
“For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” Rom 5:17
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...” Titus 3:5-6
“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21​
Salvation
by Grace
Alone
For Salvation Grace becomes merely a help and is given through the sacraments of the Church

“Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.” CCC Para2021
The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ’Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. CCC Para1129
One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience.” CCC Para 1493​
Faith is the Gift of God and comes by the Word of God
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:31
“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.” Philippians 1:29
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17​
Faith is God-given

and sustained
Faith comes through the Mother Church

It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith.” CCC Para 168
“Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother:...” Para 169
Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother’” CCC Para 181​
Christ’s Sacrifice was His alone and once offered


“...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30
“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12
“...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3​
Christ’s Atonement
Sufficient
Finished
Sacrifice
Christ’s Sacrifice continues, and is also of the Church


In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” CCC Para 1367
“The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the [Roman Catholic] Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire.” CCC Para 1368​

God is the Only All Holy One and the Only Source of Holiness

Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” Isaiah. 6:3
“Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art Holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee...” Revelation. 15: 4
There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside Thee: neither is there any rock like our God.” 1 Samuel.2:2
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8​
God, the Only
All Holy
One
Mary is also the All-Holy One and the Source of Holiness

“By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One.” CCC Para 2677
“From the [Roman Catholic] Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary....” CCC Para 2030
The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God ‘the All-Holy’ (Panagia), and celebrate her as ‘free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature’” CCC Para 493​
In Salvation the Lord Jesus Christ Alone Mediates
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy. 2:5
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12​

One
Mediator
In Salvation “Mary” Also Mediates

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the [Roman Catholic] Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” CCC Para 969​
God Hates Idolatry

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.” Exodus. 20:4-5

“And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure....” Dt. 4:13, 15-16
“Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” 1 John. 5:21​

Idolatry
The Roman Catholic Church Rationalizes Idolatry

“The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” CCC Para 2132
“Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified...the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new ‘economy’ of images.” CCC Para 2131
This Pagan Practice is Forbidden in the Bible

“There shall not be found among you any one... that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer, [one who calls up the dead].” Deut. 18:10-11

“And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits [divination; contacting the dead], and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I Am the Lord your God.” Leviticus. 20:6-7​
Communion
with the
Dead
This Practice is Recommended by Rome

Communion with the dead. In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead...Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping “them, bur also of making their intercession for us effective.” CCC Para 958
“The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer...Their intercession is their most exalted service...We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” CCC Para 2683​
 
A Summary Chart of the differences between Biblical Truth and Catholicism


by Richard Bennett


“Thy Word is Truth”
John 17:17





Biblical Truth
The Light of God’s Word

Topic
New Catechism
Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)
The Bible only is the Standard for Truth

“....the scripture cannot be broken.” John. 10:35
“Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.” John. 17:17
“That ye might learn in us not to think...above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” 1 Corinthians 4:6
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs. 30:6
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered...” Mark. 7:13​
The Basis
of

Truth
Truth is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Pope
Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other.” Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) Para 80
And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. CCC Para 81
“As a result the [Roman Catholic] Church...does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” CCC Para 82
The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful...he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such.” CCC Para 891​
Salvation is by Grace Alone Through Faith


Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:24
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8, 9
“For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” Rom 5:17
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...” Titus 3:5-6
“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21​
Salvation
by Grace
Alone
For Salvation Grace becomes merely a help and is given through the sacraments of the Church

“Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.” CCC Para2021
The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ’Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. CCC Para1129
One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience.” CCC Para 1493​
Faith is the Gift of God and comes by the Word of God
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:31
“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.” Philippians 1:29
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17​
Faith is God-given

and sustained
Faith comes through the Mother Church

It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith.” CCC Para 168
“Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother:...” Para 169
Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother’” CCC Para 181​
Christ’s Sacrifice was His alone and once offered


“...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30
“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12
“...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3​
Christ’s Atonement
Sufficient
Finished
Sacrifice
Christ’s Sacrifice continues, and is also of the Church


In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” CCC Para 1367
“The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the [Roman Catholic] Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire.” CCC Para 1368​


God is the Only All Holy One and the Only Source of Holiness

Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” Isaiah. 6:3
“Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art Holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee...” Revelation. 15: 4
There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside Thee: neither is there any rock like our God.” 1 Samuel.2:2
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8​
God, the Only
All Holy
One
Mary is also the All-Holy One and the Source of Holiness

“By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One.” CCC Para 2677
“From the [Roman Catholic] Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary....” CCC Para 2030
The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God ‘the All-Holy’ (Panagia), and celebrate her as ‘free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature’” CCC Para 493​
In Salvation the Lord Jesus Christ Alone Mediates
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy. 2:5
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12​
One
Mediator
In Salvation “Mary” Also Mediates

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the [Roman Catholic] Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” CCC Para 969​
God Hates Idolatry

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.” Exodus. 20:4-5

“And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure....” Dt. 4:13, 15-16
“Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” 1 John. 5:21​
Idolatry
The Roman Catholic Church Rationalizes Idolatry

“The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” CCC Para 2132
“Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified...the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new ‘economy’ of images.” CCC Para 2131
This Pagan Practice is Forbidden in the Bible

“There shall not be found among you any one... that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer, [one who calls up the dead].” Deut. 18:10-11

“And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits [divination; contacting the dead], and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I Am the Lord your God.” Leviticus. 20:6-7​
Communion
with the
Dead
This Practice is Recommended by Rome

Communion with the dead. In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead...Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping “them, bur also of making their intercession for us effective.” CCC Para 958
“The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer...Their intercession is their most exalted service...We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” CCC Para 2683​
IRISH
 
It looks like Irish Ram has had some kind of wake-up moment or what have you. Those are always interesting because to me, they appear to be extremely RARE.

In any case, another poster here says that Catholics are not saved.

It always struck me as the height of arrogance for anyone, anyone at all, to say that anyone else is not saved.

I mean, I see a serious problem there.... Can that poster not see the problem?

Jesus said "Judge not, lest you be judged, for by what measure you mete [judge], so shall it be meted unto you."
A Summary Chart of the differences between Biblical Truth and Catholicism


by Richard Bennett


“Thy Word is Truth”
John 17:17





Biblical Truth
The Light of God’s Word

Topic
New Catechism
Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)
The Bible only is the Standard for Truth

“....the scripture cannot be broken.” John. 10:35
“Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.” John. 17:17
“That ye might learn in us not to think...above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” 1 Corinthians 4:6
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs. 30:6
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered...” Mark. 7:13​

The Basis
of

Truth
Truth is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Pope
Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other.” Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) Para 80
And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. CCC Para 81
“As a result the [Roman Catholic] Church...does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” CCC Para 82
The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful...he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such.” CCC Para 891​
Salvation is by Grace Alone Through Faith


Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:24
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8, 9
“For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” Rom 5:17
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...” Titus 3:5-6
“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21​
Salvation
by Grace
Alone
For Salvation Grace becomes merely a help and is given through the sacraments of the Church

“Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.” CCC Para2021
The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ’Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. CCC Para1129
One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience.” CCC Para 1493​
Faith is the Gift of God and comes by the Word of God
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:31
“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.” Philippians 1:29
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17​
Faith is God-given

and sustained
Faith comes through the Mother Church

It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith.” CCC Para 168
“Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother:...” Para 169
Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother’” CCC Para 181​
Christ’s Sacrifice was His alone and once offered


“...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30
“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12
“...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3​
Christ’s Atonement
Sufficient
Finished
Sacrifice
Christ’s Sacrifice continues, and is also of the Church


In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” CCC Para 1367
“The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the [Roman Catholic] Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire.” CCC Para 1368​

God is the Only All Holy One and the Only Source of Holiness

Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” Isaiah. 6:3
“Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art Holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee...” Revelation. 15: 4
There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside Thee: neither is there any rock like our God.” 1 Samuel.2:2
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8​
God, the Only
All Holy
One
Mary is also the All-Holy One and the Source of Holiness

“By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One.” CCC Para 2677
“From the [Roman Catholic] Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary....” CCC Para 2030
The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God ‘the All-Holy’ (Panagia), and celebrate her as ‘free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature’” CCC Para 493​
In Salvation the Lord Jesus Christ Alone Mediates
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy. 2:5
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12​

One
Mediator
In Salvation “Mary” Also Mediates

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the [Roman Catholic] Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” CCC Para 969​
God Hates Idolatry

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.” Exodus. 20:4-5

“And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure....” Dt. 4:13, 15-16
“Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” 1 John. 5:21​

Idolatry
The Roman Catholic Church Rationalizes Idolatry

“The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” CCC Para 2132
“Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified...the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new ‘economy’ of images.” CCC Para 2131
This Pagan Practice is Forbidden in the Bible

“There shall not be found among you any one... that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer, [one who calls up the dead].” Deut. 18:10-11

“And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits [divination; contacting the dead], and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I Am the Lord your God.” Leviticus. 20:6-7​
Communion
with the
Dead
This Practice is Recommended by Rome

Communion with the dead. In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead...Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping “them, bur also of making their intercession for us effective.” CCC Para 958
“The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer...Their intercession is their most exalted service...We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” CCC Para 2683​
 
It looks like Irish Ram has had some kind of wake-up moment or what have you. Those are always interesting because to me, they appear to be extremely RARE.

In any case, another poster here says that Catholics are not saved.

It always struck me as the height of arrogance for anyone, anyone at all, to say that anyone else is not saved.

I mean, I see a serious problem there.... Can that poster not see the problem?

Jesus said "Judge not, lest you be judged, for by what measure you mete [judge], so shall it be meted unto you."
Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? King James Version (KJV)
 
It looks like Irish Ram has had some kind of wake-up moment or what have you. Those are always interesting because to me, they appear to be extremely RARE.

In any case, another poster here says that Catholics are not saved.

It always struck me as the height of arrogance for anyone, anyone at all, to say that anyone else is not saved.

I mean, I see a serious problem there.... Can that poster not see the problem?

Jesus said "Judge not, lest you be judged, for by what measure you mete [judge], so shall it be meted unto you."
You really are an idiot.
My viewpoint hasn't changed one bit. All the dogma of all the churches doesn't come close to the defective doctrine of the Catholic church.

I don't believe God cares much about churches or their degree of folly. Christ admonished 6 out of the 7 churches Paul started. What He didn't do was condemn any of them to hell for getting it wrong.
If you look at all the scripture about being saved, religious denomination isn't a requirement.
This is:
Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and if you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you will be saved. We believe with our hearts, and so we are made right with God. And we declare with our mouths that we believe, and so we are saved.

I don't see the angry God, waiting to pounce if your doctrine isn't the right one. I see a Father, that loves His children, and will go to great lengths not to lose one.

John 5:24“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
^ Again, church affiliation isn't a consideration.

So, misery, I don't give a shit about your crazy religious dogma. Answer these 3 questions:

1. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior?
2. Do you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead?
3. Do you believe that Christ died on the cross for your sins?

If you answered yes to those questions then you are going to be so happy when you wake up in Heaven and are told Purgatory was false doctrine. No punishment for you.

God doesn't care what church you walk into on Sunday. He cares about what is in your heart on Monday...
 
Last edited:

Forum List

Back
Top