the Biblical Basis for Socialism Is Undeniable, my friends

[surada]

As i began to read Marx and Engels, it reminded me of the biblical messages i grew up with

By then, I had spent several years realizing that things were not right in our society. And now I saw there were other ways to organize an economy that reward people for their work and enable them to sustain themselves. Capitalism was doing that for some, but it was leaving a whole bunch of other people to suffer and die. And I learned that these class issues could not be divorced from race and gender

There is nothing in the Bible that suggest anything close to Marx and Engels, or any other socialist view.

In fact Capitalism is all throughout the Bible. I could give you dozens on dozens of examples, but here's one to start with, for men trying to find a wife.

Proverbs 31, describes the Christian wife of noble character.

A wife of noble character, who can find? She is far more precious than rubies. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he lacks nothing of value. She brings him good and not harm all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She rises while it is still night to provide food for her household and portions for her maidservants. She appraises a field and buys it; from her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength and shows that her arms are strong. She sees that her gain is good, and her lamp is not extinguished at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household, for they are all clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known at the city gate, where he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing, and she can laugh at the days to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.​

​

Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband praises her as well: “Many daughters have done noble things, but you surpass them all!”​

​

Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her at the gates.​

So what can we learn from this in relation to the topic? In verse 13, it says she carefully selects flax and wool, and works them with her hands, and is like a merchant ships bringing food from afar.

What does that mean? Capitalism. Making a profit. She's buying goods, and selling them.

If you even try and question then, then look at 24 where it says she makes garments, and sells them to the merchants. Capitalism. Owning the means of production.

Then you look at property rights in verse 16, where she buys a field, and plants a vineyard. Again, property rights, and capitalism.

And this is qualities of a woman the Bible says a man should look for. What does that tell you about the Biblical view of capitalism?

We know all women work hard, and that is in the Jewish book, not the Christian book. We are to follow Jesus and not Paul.

So you are saying that Paul, a man who died for his faith in Jesus, and wrote the majority of the NT, is not to be follow? G-d had Paul write most of his book. We are following the Bible. And Jesus never wrote a book. Everything you know about Jesus, was written by other people.

Do you follow Luke? Or Mark? Or John? You either believe the whole Bible, or none of it. If you don't follow Paul, then you don't follow Jesus either, because Jesus sent Paul to write his book for us.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.
they had you in mind when they wrote it -
.
Christianity in the 4th century was dominated in its early stage by Constantine the great and the First Council of Nicaea of 325, which was the beginning of the period of the First seven Ecumenical Councils (325–787), and in its late stage by the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.
.
they spent a 100 years, 4oo years after the events of the 1st century to write and complete the christian bible - "the religion of the roman empire" -

it is you who has no idea who wrote that book or ... the 1st century religious itinerant, the book is supposedly based on. and is a political document disguised as a religion. for the mentally and emotionally - - > depraved. andylooser.

You have the right to be wrong. You are not the first, nor will be the last, to spout ignorance of the Bible, and claim everyone around you is ignorant.

Matthew 6:25-34 is titled, “Do Not Be Anxious.” The apostle Luke recorded Jesus’ words as well: “Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these” (Luke 12:27

 

[Penelope]

As i began to read Marx and Engels, it reminded me of the biblical messages i grew up with

By then, I had spent several years realizing that things were not right in our society. And now I saw there were other ways to organize an economy that reward people for their work and enable them to sustain themselves. Capitalism was doing that for some, but it was leaving a whole bunch of other people to suffer and die. And I learned that these class issues could not be divorced from race and gender

There is nothing in the Bible that suggest anything close to Marx and Engels, or any other socialist view.

In fact Capitalism is all throughout the Bible. I could give you dozens on dozens of examples, but here's one to start with, for men trying to find a wife.

Proverbs 31, describes the Christian wife of noble character.

A wife of noble character, who can find? She is far more precious than rubies. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he lacks nothing of value. She brings him good and not harm all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She rises while it is still night to provide food for her household and portions for her maidservants. She appraises a field and buys it; from her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength and shows that her arms are strong. She sees that her gain is good, and her lamp is not extinguished at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household, for they are all clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known at the city gate, where he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing, and she can laugh at the days to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.​

​

Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband praises her as well: “Many daughters have done noble things, but you surpass them all!”​

​

Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her at the gates.​

So what can we learn from this in relation to the topic? In verse 13, it says she carefully selects flax and wool, and works them with her hands, and is like a merchant ships bringing food from afar.

What does that mean? Capitalism. Making a profit. She's buying goods, and selling them.

If you even try and question then, then look at 24 where it says she makes garments, and sells them to the merchants. Capitalism. Owning the means of production.

Then you look at property rights in verse 16, where she buys a field, and plants a vineyard. Again, property rights, and capitalism.

And this is qualities of a woman the Bible says a man should look for. What does that tell you about the Biblical view of capitalism?

We know all women work hard, and that is in the Jewish book, not the Christian book. We are to follow Jesus and not Paul.

So you are saying that Paul, a man who died for his faith in Jesus, and wrote the majority of the NT, is not to be follow? G-d had Paul write most of his book. We are following the Bible. And Jesus never wrote a book. Everything you know about Jesus, was written by other people.

Do you follow Luke? Or Mark? Or John? You either believe the whole Bible, or none of it. If you don't follow Paul, then you don't follow Jesus either, because Jesus sent Paul to write his book for us.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.
they had you in mind when they wrote it -
.
Christianity in the 4th century was dominated in its early stage by Constantine the great and the First Council of Nicaea of 325, which was the beginning of the period of the First seven Ecumenical Councils (325–787), and in its late stage by the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.
.
they spent a 100 years, 4oo years after the events of the 1st century to write and complete the christian bible - "the religion of the roman empire" -

it is you who has no idea who wrote that book or ... the 1st century religious itinerant, the book is supposedly based on. and is a political document disguised as a religion. for the mentally and emotionally - - > depraved. andylooser.

Sorry, but your opinion or the opinion of someone else doesn't trump Scripture. God is fully able to keep his Word intact through the centuries and He did. The Holy Spirit works through God's chosen. Too bad for you and others who attempt to destroy God's Word.

How has he kept his word intact??

There are millions and millions of Bibles all over the planet and millions and millions of people who believe it is God's Word.

Its not the word of God, God didn't tell many men to write the books and Jews wrote the OT and the NT.

Why are there two stories in Genesis about the beginning of time? Did god change his mind?

Jesus was a socialist whether you like it or not.

I love that. You can't find a single instance where Jesus said government should control the means of production and distribution. But somehow he's a socialists, and despite dozens of counter examples throughout the Bible, your only response is "Whether you like it or not"... as if that's an argument, or changes any of the facts we presented, or the fact you didn't present any evidence.

We're just supposed to take your word on "faith"..... How ironic that is for a socialist to be saying that.

Are you done here? Or do you want to just keep repeating the same false claims forever?

As people around the world celebrate Christmas, it is worth remembering that Jesus was a socialist. Of course, he was born long before the rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century, but his radical ideas have influenced many critics of capitalism, including many prominent socialists and even Pope Francis.
Pope Francis has consistently criticized the human and spiritual damage caused by global capitalism, widening inequality, and corporate sweatshops. Last week, he blamed the “god of money” for the extremist violence that is taking place around the world. A ruthless global economy, he argued, leads marginalized people to violence.
In 2013, he released a remarkable 84-page document in which he attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny,” criticized the “idolatry of money,” and urged politicians to guarantee all citizens “dignified work, education and healthcare.”
Jesus Was A Socialist | HuffPost

Unfettered capitalism and greed at the top. We have rich socialism, why not the working man and poor socialism.

You are wrong. Jesus was not a socialist at all.

"rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century" Capitalism always existed.

Matthew 25, starting in verse 14:

The Parable of the Talents​

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

The story of the Minas, spoken by Jesus himself, is a direct affront to all things socialist and affirms Capitalism.

The employer gives some of his wealth to his servants to invest in whatever productivity they can. The servants are expected to work with what their employers gives them to produce a profit for the owner of the capital.

The first two work do well, and work hard to gain a return on the investment. The third one sounds much like the socialists and left-wing people we have in America today.... claiming that the employer, the capitalist, was a "hard man" who harvested where he did not plant, and gathered where he spread no seed.

Jesus said such people were "wicked and slothful", just as they are today. Sitting around complaining they shouldn't have to pay for health care, and demanding ever greater government benefits.

To each of the people who produced a profit for their work, more wealth was given to them. To the wicked and lazy person, what little they had was taken from them.

This is completely the opposite of Socialist ideology, where the poor are given more, the more poor and lazy they are. Where people say that if we cut welfare, the poor children will just starve to death on the streets.

In short, Jesus was the first proponent of Capitalism, before Capitalism existed as a word.

Lastly, Jesus spoke of such people "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

As will all socialists and left-wingers when the time comes.

I don't care what you wrote form the bible, I know Jesus was a socialist's by the 4 gospels.

did you read this "‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed?"

that is what the rich do. the rich man would be a goat.

XD

"I don't care what you wrote form the bible, I know Jesus was a socialist's by the 4 gospels."

(after reading something that not only came from the 4 gospels, but that Jesus himself said)

I don't even know what a rational response would be to your insanity. When someone quotes the gospels, and then you say you don't believe what I said, because you only believe the gospels.... either you don't know the gospels, or you are in need of professional mental help.

"did you read this "‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed?" ​

​

that is what the rich do. the rich man would be a goat."​

Yeah, obviously I did read it, since I just wrote it.
And... Jesus declared the person who said that.... was evil and wicked person who would be cast out into darkness and misery.

You just put yourself in the position of the wicked evil lazy person, who Jesus said will be cast out into misery and darkness.

That would seem to make you opposed to what Jesus stood for. Which calls into question your claims about what you think Jesus stood for.

8 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

 

[Andylusion]

As i began to read Marx and Engels, it reminded me of the biblical messages i grew up with

By then, I had spent several years realizing that things were not right in our society. And now I saw there were other ways to organize an economy that reward people for their work and enable them to sustain themselves. Capitalism was doing that for some, but it was leaving a whole bunch of other people to suffer and die. And I learned that these class issues could not be divorced from race and gender

There is nothing in the Bible that suggest anything close to Marx and Engels, or any other socialist view.

In fact Capitalism is all throughout the Bible. I could give you dozens on dozens of examples, but here's one to start with, for men trying to find a wife.

Proverbs 31, describes the Christian wife of noble character.

A wife of noble character, who can find? She is far more precious than rubies. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he lacks nothing of value. She brings him good and not harm all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She rises while it is still night to provide food for her household and portions for her maidservants. She appraises a field and buys it; from her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength and shows that her arms are strong. She sees that her gain is good, and her lamp is not extinguished at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household, for they are all clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known at the city gate, where he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing, and she can laugh at the days to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.​

​

Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband praises her as well: “Many daughters have done noble things, but you surpass them all!”​

​

Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her at the gates.​

So what can we learn from this in relation to the topic? In verse 13, it says she carefully selects flax and wool, and works them with her hands, and is like a merchant ships bringing food from afar.

What does that mean? Capitalism. Making a profit. She's buying goods, and selling them.

If you even try and question then, then look at 24 where it says she makes garments, and sells them to the merchants. Capitalism. Owning the means of production.

Then you look at property rights in verse 16, where she buys a field, and plants a vineyard. Again, property rights, and capitalism.

And this is qualities of a woman the Bible says a man should look for. What does that tell you about the Biblical view of capitalism?

We know all women work hard, and that is in the Jewish book, not the Christian book. We are to follow Jesus and not Paul.

So you are saying that Paul, a man who died for his faith in Jesus, and wrote the majority of the NT, is not to be follow? G-d had Paul write most of his book. We are following the Bible. And Jesus never wrote a book. Everything you know about Jesus, was written by other people.

Do you follow Luke? Or Mark? Or John? You either believe the whole Bible, or none of it. If you don't follow Paul, then you don't follow Jesus either, because Jesus sent Paul to write his book for us.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.
they had you in mind when they wrote it -
.
Christianity in the 4th century was dominated in its early stage by Constantine the great and the First Council of Nicaea of 325, which was the beginning of the period of the First seven Ecumenical Councils (325–787), and in its late stage by the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.
.
they spent a 100 years, 4oo years after the events of the 1st century to write and complete the christian bible - "the religion of the roman empire" -

it is you who has no idea who wrote that book or ... the 1st century religious itinerant, the book is supposedly based on. and is a political document disguised as a religion. for the mentally and emotionally - - > depraved. andylooser.

Sorry, but your opinion or the opinion of someone else doesn't trump Scripture. God is fully able to keep his Word intact through the centuries and He did. The Holy Spirit works through God's chosen. Too bad for you and others who attempt to destroy God's Word.

How has he kept his word intact??

There are millions and millions of Bibles all over the planet and millions and millions of people who believe it is God's Word.

Its not the word of God, God didn't tell many men to write the books and Jews wrote the OT and the NT.

Why are there two stories in Genesis about the beginning of time? Did god change his mind?

Jesus was a socialist whether you like it or not.

I love that. You can't find a single instance where Jesus said government should control the means of production and distribution. But somehow he's a socialists, and despite dozens of counter examples throughout the Bible, your only response is "Whether you like it or not"... as if that's an argument, or changes any of the facts we presented, or the fact you didn't present any evidence.

We're just supposed to take your word on "faith"..... How ironic that is for a socialist to be saying that.

Are you done here? Or do you want to just keep repeating the same false claims forever?

As people around the world celebrate Christmas, it is worth remembering that Jesus was a socialist. Of course, he was born long before the rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century, but his radical ideas have influenced many critics of capitalism, including many prominent socialists and even Pope Francis.
Pope Francis has consistently criticized the human and spiritual damage caused by global capitalism, widening inequality, and corporate sweatshops. Last week, he blamed the “god of money” for the extremist violence that is taking place around the world. A ruthless global economy, he argued, leads marginalized people to violence.
In 2013, he released a remarkable 84-page document in which he attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny,” criticized the “idolatry of money,” and urged politicians to guarantee all citizens “dignified work, education and healthcare.”
Jesus Was A Socialist | HuffPost

Unfettered capitalism and greed at the top. We have rich socialism, why not the working man and poor socialism.

You are wrong. Jesus was not a socialist at all.

"rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century" Capitalism always existed.

Matthew 25, starting in verse 14:

The Parable of the Talents​

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

The story of the Minas, spoken by Jesus himself, is a direct affront to all things socialist and affirms Capitalism.

The employer gives some of his wealth to his servants to invest in whatever productivity they can. The servants are expected to work with what their employers gives them to produce a profit for the owner of the capital.

The first two work do well, and work hard to gain a return on the investment. The third one sounds much like the socialists and left-wing people we have in America today.... claiming that the employer, the capitalist, was a "hard man" who harvested where he did not plant, and gathered where he spread no seed.

Jesus said such people were "wicked and slothful", just as they are today. Sitting around complaining they shouldn't have to pay for health care, and demanding ever greater government benefits.

To each of the people who produced a profit for their work, more wealth was given to them. To the wicked and lazy person, what little they had was taken from them.

This is completely the opposite of Socialist ideology, where the poor are given more, the more poor and lazy they are. Where people say that if we cut welfare, the poor children will just starve to death on the streets.

In short, Jesus was the first proponent of Capitalism, before Capitalism existed as a word.

Lastly, Jesus spoke of such people "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

As will all socialists and left-wingers when the time comes.

Jesus wouldn't have supported corporatism.. IMO.. and I agree he wasn't a socialist . Seems to me he simply accepted government and taxes.

It wasn't really just "accepting" government and taxes, but rather he taught his followers that this world is temporary, and we are not supposed to be all about trying to make this existence into the utopia of Heaven.

As far as it depends on us, we should follow the laws of the land, up until the point they contradict the will of G-d.

This goes back to the shadrach meshach and abednego story, where they all followed every aspect of the foreign country, and foreign laws they were subject to, until.... the law required them to disobey G-d.

Similarly, Christians today we follow the laws, even if we disagree with those laws, up to the point where we are required to disobey G-d. For example serving a gay wedding, or being forced to pay for abortions.

As for socialism, I pay taxes for dozens of programs I completely disagree with, and I argue against those programs, and against the government running them. But it's not a violation of my faith.

Jesus never taught his followers that they should demand other people take care of the poor, and use the power of government to force OTHERS to pay for it. Never was part of Jesus ideology.

Jesus was a Capitalist, and made that clear through dozens of example, like saying we shouldn't be like the gentiles that say "I'm your benefactor".

Like the rich man whom he said, the man should sell his stuff and give it to the poor. Didn't tell him to vote for a government to confiscate his wealth, and give it to the poor. Didn't put a gun to his head and demand he give to the poor. Didn't tell him to join a charity group to collect donations from others, and give to the poor.

He said *YOU* do it, and not by force, but by choice.

That's why the Bible says specifically "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. "

Not under compulsion. NOT.

Socialism does not work without compulsion. There is no example of socialism where people do not take property by force.

That is what socialism is.

Jesus was never for that.

 

[Andylusion]

Jesus instructed his disciples to practice "socialism" amongst themselves. Each was contribute his wealth to the community and all would be provided for. This is why Convents and Monasteries incorporate the same principles into their communities.

This is a far cry from demanding that all citizens give their wealth to the state, in exchange for a guarantee of a lifetime income and a social safety net.

Denmark, Sweden and Norway are very successful with their combinations of socialism and capitalism.

They are not socialism. Not even remotely socialism. I don't think you know much about socialism, if you think any of those countries are socialist. They are not.

Have you been there? Do you know people who live there, like I do? Not socialist at all.

 

[Andylusion]

As i began to read Marx and Engels, it reminded me of the biblical messages i grew up with

By then, I had spent several years realizing that things were not right in our society. And now I saw there were other ways to organize an economy that reward people for their work and enable them to sustain themselves. Capitalism was doing that for some, but it was leaving a whole bunch of other people to suffer and die. And I learned that these class issues could not be divorced from race and gender

There is nothing in the Bible that suggest anything close to Marx and Engels, or any other socialist view.

In fact Capitalism is all throughout the Bible. I could give you dozens on dozens of examples, but here's one to start with, for men trying to find a wife.

Proverbs 31, describes the Christian wife of noble character.

A wife of noble character, who can find? She is far more precious than rubies. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he lacks nothing of value. She brings him good and not harm all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She rises while it is still night to provide food for her household and portions for her maidservants. She appraises a field and buys it; from her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength and shows that her arms are strong. She sees that her gain is good, and her lamp is not extinguished at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household, for they are all clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known at the city gate, where he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing, and she can laugh at the days to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.​

​

Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband praises her as well: “Many daughters have done noble things, but you surpass them all!”​

​

Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her at the gates.​

So what can we learn from this in relation to the topic? In verse 13, it says she carefully selects flax and wool, and works them with her hands, and is like a merchant ships bringing food from afar.

What does that mean? Capitalism. Making a profit. She's buying goods, and selling them.

If you even try and question then, then look at 24 where it says she makes garments, and sells them to the merchants. Capitalism. Owning the means of production.

Then you look at property rights in verse 16, where she buys a field, and plants a vineyard. Again, property rights, and capitalism.

And this is qualities of a woman the Bible says a man should look for. What does that tell you about the Biblical view of capitalism?

We know all women work hard, and that is in the Jewish book, not the Christian book. We are to follow Jesus and not Paul.

So you are saying that Paul, a man who died for his faith in Jesus, and wrote the majority of the NT, is not to be follow? G-d had Paul write most of his book. We are following the Bible. And Jesus never wrote a book. Everything you know about Jesus, was written by other people.

Do you follow Luke? Or Mark? Or John? You either believe the whole Bible, or none of it. If you don't follow Paul, then you don't follow Jesus either, because Jesus sent Paul to write his book for us.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.
they had you in mind when they wrote it -
.
Christianity in the 4th century was dominated in its early stage by Constantine the great and the First Council of Nicaea of 325, which was the beginning of the period of the First seven Ecumenical Councils (325–787), and in its late stage by the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.
.
they spent a 100 years, 4oo years after the events of the 1st century to write and complete the christian bible - "the religion of the roman empire" -

it is you who has no idea who wrote that book or ... the 1st century religious itinerant, the book is supposedly based on. and is a political document disguised as a religion. for the mentally and emotionally - - > depraved. andylooser.

You have the right to be wrong. You are not the first, nor will be the last, to spout ignorance of the Bible, and claim everyone around you is ignorant.

Matthew 6:25-34 is titled, “Do Not Be Anxious.” The apostle Luke recorded Jesus’ words as well: “Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these” (Luke 12:27

Ok? So what?

 

[Andylusion]

As i began to read Marx and Engels, it reminded me of the biblical messages i grew up with

By then, I had spent several years realizing that things were not right in our society. And now I saw there were other ways to organize an economy that reward people for their work and enable them to sustain themselves. Capitalism was doing that for some, but it was leaving a whole bunch of other people to suffer and die. And I learned that these class issues could not be divorced from race and gender

There is nothing in the Bible that suggest anything close to Marx and Engels, or any other socialist view.

In fact Capitalism is all throughout the Bible. I could give you dozens on dozens of examples, but here's one to start with, for men trying to find a wife.

Proverbs 31, describes the Christian wife of noble character.

A wife of noble character, who can find? She is far more precious than rubies. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he lacks nothing of value. She brings him good and not harm all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She rises while it is still night to provide food for her household and portions for her maidservants. She appraises a field and buys it; from her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength and shows that her arms are strong. She sees that her gain is good, and her lamp is not extinguished at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household, for they are all clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known at the city gate, where he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing, and she can laugh at the days to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.​

​

Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband praises her as well: “Many daughters have done noble things, but you surpass them all!”​

​

Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her at the gates.​

So what can we learn from this in relation to the topic? In verse 13, it says she carefully selects flax and wool, and works them with her hands, and is like a merchant ships bringing food from afar.

What does that mean? Capitalism. Making a profit. She's buying goods, and selling them.

If you even try and question then, then look at 24 where it says she makes garments, and sells them to the merchants. Capitalism. Owning the means of production.

Then you look at property rights in verse 16, where she buys a field, and plants a vineyard. Again, property rights, and capitalism.

And this is qualities of a woman the Bible says a man should look for. What does that tell you about the Biblical view of capitalism?

We know all women work hard, and that is in the Jewish book, not the Christian book. We are to follow Jesus and not Paul.

So you are saying that Paul, a man who died for his faith in Jesus, and wrote the majority of the NT, is not to be follow? G-d had Paul write most of his book. We are following the Bible. And Jesus never wrote a book. Everything you know about Jesus, was written by other people.

Do you follow Luke? Or Mark? Or John? You either believe the whole Bible, or none of it. If you don't follow Paul, then you don't follow Jesus either, because Jesus sent Paul to write his book for us.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.
they had you in mind when they wrote it -
.
Christianity in the 4th century was dominated in its early stage by Constantine the great and the First Council of Nicaea of 325, which was the beginning of the period of the First seven Ecumenical Councils (325–787), and in its late stage by the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.
.
they spent a 100 years, 4oo years after the events of the 1st century to write and complete the christian bible - "the religion of the roman empire" -

it is you who has no idea who wrote that book or ... the 1st century religious itinerant, the book is supposedly based on. and is a political document disguised as a religion. for the mentally and emotionally - - > depraved. andylooser.

Sorry, but your opinion or the opinion of someone else doesn't trump Scripture. God is fully able to keep his Word intact through the centuries and He did. The Holy Spirit works through God's chosen. Too bad for you and others who attempt to destroy God's Word.

How has he kept his word intact??

There are millions and millions of Bibles all over the planet and millions and millions of people who believe it is God's Word.

Its not the word of God, God didn't tell many men to write the books and Jews wrote the OT and the NT.

Why are there two stories in Genesis about the beginning of time? Did god change his mind?

Jesus was a socialist whether you like it or not.

I love that. You can't find a single instance where Jesus said government should control the means of production and distribution. But somehow he's a socialists, and despite dozens of counter examples throughout the Bible, your only response is "Whether you like it or not"... as if that's an argument, or changes any of the facts we presented, or the fact you didn't present any evidence.

We're just supposed to take your word on "faith"..... How ironic that is for a socialist to be saying that.

Are you done here? Or do you want to just keep repeating the same false claims forever?

As people around the world celebrate Christmas, it is worth remembering that Jesus was a socialist. Of course, he was born long before the rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century, but his radical ideas have influenced many critics of capitalism, including many prominent socialists and even Pope Francis.
Pope Francis has consistently criticized the human and spiritual damage caused by global capitalism, widening inequality, and corporate sweatshops. Last week, he blamed the “god of money” for the extremist violence that is taking place around the world. A ruthless global economy, he argued, leads marginalized people to violence.
In 2013, he released a remarkable 84-page document in which he attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny,” criticized the “idolatry of money,” and urged politicians to guarantee all citizens “dignified work, education and healthcare.”
Jesus Was A Socialist | HuffPost

Unfettered capitalism and greed at the top. We have rich socialism, why not the working man and poor socialism.

You are wrong. Jesus was not a socialist at all.

"rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century" Capitalism always existed.

Matthew 25, starting in verse 14:

The Parable of the Talents​

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

The story of the Minas, spoken by Jesus himself, is a direct affront to all things socialist and affirms Capitalism.

The employer gives some of his wealth to his servants to invest in whatever productivity they can. The servants are expected to work with what their employers gives them to produce a profit for the owner of the capital.

The first two work do well, and work hard to gain a return on the investment. The third one sounds much like the socialists and left-wing people we have in America today.... claiming that the employer, the capitalist, was a "hard man" who harvested where he did not plant, and gathered where he spread no seed.

Jesus said such people were "wicked and slothful", just as they are today. Sitting around complaining they shouldn't have to pay for health care, and demanding ever greater government benefits.

To each of the people who produced a profit for their work, more wealth was given to them. To the wicked and lazy person, what little they had was taken from them.

This is completely the opposite of Socialist ideology, where the poor are given more, the more poor and lazy they are. Where people say that if we cut welfare, the poor children will just starve to death on the streets.

In short, Jesus was the first proponent of Capitalism, before Capitalism existed as a word.

Lastly, Jesus spoke of such people "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

As will all socialists and left-wingers when the time comes.

I don't care what you wrote form the bible, I know Jesus was a socialist's by the 4 gospels.

did you read this "‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed?"

that is what the rich do. the rich man would be a goat.

XD

"I don't care what you wrote form the bible, I know Jesus was a socialist's by the 4 gospels."

(after reading something that not only came from the 4 gospels, but that Jesus himself said)

I don't even know what a rational response would be to your insanity. When someone quotes the gospels, and then you say you don't believe what I said, because you only believe the gospels.... either you don't know the gospels, or you are in need of professional mental help.

"did you read this "‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed?" ​

​

that is what the rich do. the rich man would be a goat."​

Yeah, obviously I did read it, since I just wrote it.
And... Jesus declared the person who said that.... was evil and wicked person who would be cast out into darkness and misery.

You just put yourself in the position of the wicked evil lazy person, who Jesus said will be cast out into misery and darkness.

That would seem to make you opposed to what Jesus stood for. Which calls into question your claims about what you think Jesus stood for.

8 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Right, did he tell all wealthy people everywhere to do that? No, and we know that because he stayed at the homes of wealthy people, and did not tell all of them to give everything away.

In fact, Jesus was buried in the tomb of a wealthy person.

You can't take one passage, and then proclaim that passage over writes the entire rest of the Bible.

Even in that passage, that very passage, Jesus affirms capitalism, and contradicts socialism.

Did Jesus demand he sell everything, and give to the poor? Nope.

Did Jesus demand to elect a government to take the wealth from this man, and give to the poor? Nope.

Jesus wanted the man to voluntarily give to the poor. Freedom of choice. Capitalism. Jesus affirmed that the wealth he owned, was in fact his property.

That's capitalism. And exactly what I told you at the start, that Jesus whole ministry was the opposite of Socilaists. Socialists stand around demanding others help the poor. Let's vote for this politician that will steal that wealthy guys money, and give it to poor. Let's put in place taxes to confiscate the wealth of others, and give it out to those who have not earned it.

But you never see a socialists demand they themselves pay higher taxes. You never see that.

There was a fantastic poll that came out during the Obama years, when they were debating Obama care. The poll asked "Do you support universal health care?" and if you answered yes, then it asked "Do you support UHC if you have to pay 0.5% additional taxes? If you answered yes, it asked 1% taxes? 2% taxes? 5% taxes? 10% taxes?

More than 50% of those polled, answered no they didnt' support universal health are if it required them to pay 0.5% in taxes. And almost 90% said no they don't, at 1%.

That's socialists. They were all for Universal Health Care, if someone else was paying for it. But the moment they said, no YOU have to pay, then oh not so interested.

That's is completely contrary to Jesus teaching. Jesus teaching was never to try and force other people to pay for helping others. It's on YOU to help others. Jesus never supported taking money with taxes, to help others. Jesus always support you VOLUNTARILY, not under compulsion, to help others.

Nothing socialist about his position. Nothing.

 

[surada]

Jesus instructed his disciples to practice "socialism" amongst themselves. Each was contribute his wealth to the community and all would be provided for. This is why Convents and Monasteries incorporate the same principles into their communities.

This is a far cry from demanding that all citizens give their wealth to the state, in exchange for a guarantee of a lifetime income and a social safety net.

Denmark, Sweden and Norway are very successful with their combinations of socialism and capitalism.

They are not socialism. Not even remotely socialism. I don't think you know much about socialism, if you think any of those countries are socialist. They are not.

Have you been there? Do you know people who live there, like I do? Not socialist at all.

Yes, I have been to Scandinavia many, many times.. We spent a week or two there every 18 months.. Usually ignorant hardliners scream about their socialism, but in fact they are capitalists with socialism. .. They are also a homogenous society and very successful with excellent schools and healthcare.

 

[surada]

As i began to read Marx and Engels, it reminded me of the biblical messages i grew up with

By then, I had spent several years realizing that things were not right in our society. And now I saw there were other ways to organize an economy that reward people for their work and enable them to sustain themselves. Capitalism was doing that for some, but it was leaving a whole bunch of other people to suffer and die. And I learned that these class issues could not be divorced from race and gender

There is nothing in the Bible that suggest anything close to Marx and Engels, or any other socialist view.

In fact Capitalism is all throughout the Bible. I could give you dozens on dozens of examples, but here's one to start with, for men trying to find a wife.

Proverbs 31, describes the Christian wife of noble character.

A wife of noble character, who can find? She is far more precious than rubies. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he lacks nothing of value. She brings him good and not harm all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She rises while it is still night to provide food for her household and portions for her maidservants. She appraises a field and buys it; from her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength and shows that her arms are strong. She sees that her gain is good, and her lamp is not extinguished at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household, for they are all clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known at the city gate, where he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing, and she can laugh at the days to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.​

​

Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband praises her as well: “Many daughters have done noble things, but you surpass them all!”​

​

Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her at the gates.​

So what can we learn from this in relation to the topic? In verse 13, it says she carefully selects flax and wool, and works them with her hands, and is like a merchant ships bringing food from afar.

What does that mean? Capitalism. Making a profit. She's buying goods, and selling them.

If you even try and question then, then look at 24 where it says she makes garments, and sells them to the merchants. Capitalism. Owning the means of production.

Then you look at property rights in verse 16, where she buys a field, and plants a vineyard. Again, property rights, and capitalism.

And this is qualities of a woman the Bible says a man should look for. What does that tell you about the Biblical view of capitalism?

We know all women work hard, and that is in the Jewish book, not the Christian book. We are to follow Jesus and not Paul.

So you are saying that Paul, a man who died for his faith in Jesus, and wrote the majority of the NT, is not to be follow? G-d had Paul write most of his book. We are following the Bible. And Jesus never wrote a book. Everything you know about Jesus, was written by other people.

Do you follow Luke? Or Mark? Or John? You either believe the whole Bible, or none of it. If you don't follow Paul, then you don't follow Jesus either, because Jesus sent Paul to write his book for us.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.
they had you in mind when they wrote it -
.
Christianity in the 4th century was dominated in its early stage by Constantine the great and the First Council of Nicaea of 325, which was the beginning of the period of the First seven Ecumenical Councils (325–787), and in its late stage by the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.
.
they spent a 100 years, 4oo years after the events of the 1st century to write and complete the christian bible - "the religion of the roman empire" -

it is you who has no idea who wrote that book or ... the 1st century religious itinerant, the book is supposedly based on. and is a political document disguised as a religion. for the mentally and emotionally - - > depraved. andylooser.

Sorry, but your opinion or the opinion of someone else doesn't trump Scripture. God is fully able to keep his Word intact through the centuries and He did. The Holy Spirit works through God's chosen. Too bad for you and others who attempt to destroy God's Word.

How has he kept his word intact??

There are millions and millions of Bibles all over the planet and millions and millions of people who believe it is God's Word.

Its not the word of God, God didn't tell many men to write the books and Jews wrote the OT and the NT.

Why are there two stories in Genesis about the beginning of time? Did god change his mind?

Jesus was a socialist whether you like it or not.

I love that. You can't find a single instance where Jesus said government should control the means of production and distribution. But somehow he's a socialists, and despite dozens of counter examples throughout the Bible, your only response is "Whether you like it or not"... as if that's an argument, or changes any of the facts we presented, or the fact you didn't present any evidence.

We're just supposed to take your word on "faith"..... How ironic that is for a socialist to be saying that.

Are you done here? Or do you want to just keep repeating the same false claims forever?

As people around the world celebrate Christmas, it is worth remembering that Jesus was a socialist. Of course, he was born long before the rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century, but his radical ideas have influenced many critics of capitalism, including many prominent socialists and even Pope Francis.
Pope Francis has consistently criticized the human and spiritual damage caused by global capitalism, widening inequality, and corporate sweatshops. Last week, he blamed the “god of money” for the extremist violence that is taking place around the world. A ruthless global economy, he argued, leads marginalized people to violence.
In 2013, he released a remarkable 84-page document in which he attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny,” criticized the “idolatry of money,” and urged politicians to guarantee all citizens “dignified work, education and healthcare.”
Jesus Was A Socialist | HuffPost

Unfettered capitalism and greed at the top. We have rich socialism, why not the working man and poor socialism.

You are wrong. Jesus was not a socialist at all.

"rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century" Capitalism always existed.

Matthew 25, starting in verse 14:

The Parable of the Talents​

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

The story of the Minas, spoken by Jesus himself, is a direct affront to all things socialist and affirms Capitalism.

The employer gives some of his wealth to his servants to invest in whatever productivity they can. The servants are expected to work with what their employers gives them to produce a profit for the owner of the capital.

The first two work do well, and work hard to gain a return on the investment. The third one sounds much like the socialists and left-wing people we have in America today.... claiming that the employer, the capitalist, was a "hard man" who harvested where he did not plant, and gathered where he spread no seed.

Jesus said such people were "wicked and slothful", just as they are today. Sitting around complaining they shouldn't have to pay for health care, and demanding ever greater government benefits.

To each of the people who produced a profit for their work, more wealth was given to them. To the wicked and lazy person, what little they had was taken from them.

This is completely the opposite of Socialist ideology, where the poor are given more, the more poor and lazy they are. Where people say that if we cut welfare, the poor children will just starve to death on the streets.

In short, Jesus was the first proponent of Capitalism, before Capitalism existed as a word.

Lastly, Jesus spoke of such people "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

As will all socialists and left-wingers when the time comes.

I don't care what you wrote form the bible, I know Jesus was a socialist's by the 4 gospels.

did you read this "‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed?"

that is what the rich do. the rich man would be a goat.

XD

"I don't care what you wrote form the bible, I know Jesus was a socialist's by the 4 gospels."

(after reading something that not only came from the 4 gospels, but that Jesus himself said)

I don't even know what a rational response would be to your insanity. When someone quotes the gospels, and then you say you don't believe what I said, because you only believe the gospels.... either you don't know the gospels, or you are in need of professional mental help.

"did you read this "‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed?" ​

​

that is what the rich do. the rich man would be a goat."​

Yeah, obviously I did read it, since I just wrote it.
And... Jesus declared the person who said that.... was evil and wicked person who would be cast out into darkness and misery.

You just put yourself in the position of the wicked evil lazy person, who Jesus said will be cast out into misery and darkness.

That would seem to make you opposed to what Jesus stood for. Which calls into question your claims about what you think Jesus stood for.

8 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Right, did he tell all wealthy people everywhere to do that? No, and we know that because he stayed at the homes of wealthy people, and did not tell all of them to give everything away.

In fact, Jesus was buried in the tomb of a wealthy person.

You can't take one passage, and then proclaim that passage over writes the entire rest of the Bible.

Even in that passage, that very passage, Jesus affirms capitalism, and contradicts socialism.

Did Jesus demand he sell everything, and give to the poor? Nope.

Did Jesus demand to elect a government to take the wealth from this man, and give to the poor? Nope.

Jesus wanted the man to voluntarily give to the poor. Freedom of choice. Capitalism. Jesus affirmed that the wealth he owned, was in fact his property.

That's capitalism. And exactly what I told you at the start, that Jesus whole ministry was the opposite of Socilaists. Socialists stand around demanding others help the poor. Let's vote for this politician that will steal that wealthy guys money, and give it to poor. Let's put in place taxes to confiscate the wealth of others, and give it out to those who have not earned it.

But you never see a socialists demand they themselves pay higher taxes. You never see that.

There was a fantastic poll that came out during the Obama years, when they were debating Obama care. The poll asked "Do you support universal health care?" and if you answered yes, then it asked "Do you support UHC if you have to pay 0.5% additional taxes? If you answered yes, it asked 1% taxes? 2% taxes? 5% taxes? 10% taxes?

More than 50% of those polled, answered no they didnt' support universal health are if it required them to pay 0.5% in taxes. And almost 90% said no they don't, at 1%.

That's socialists. They were all for Universal Health Care, if someone else was paying for it. But the moment they said, no YOU have to pay, then oh not so interested.

That's is completely contrary to Jesus teaching. Jesus teaching was never to try and force other people to pay for helping others. It's on YOU to help others. Jesus never supported taking money with taxes, to help others. Jesus always support you VOLUNTARILY, not under compulsion, to help others.

Nothing socialist about his position. Nothing.

Jesus simply told them to render unto Caesar that which was Caesar's.. Taxes.. We are NOT a tiny desert city state with a population of a few thousand people.. Nor are we occupied by Rome or under the yoke of Roman law.

 

[Andylusion]

Jesus instructed his disciples to practice "socialism" amongst themselves. Each was contribute his wealth to the community and all would be provided for. This is why Convents and Monasteries incorporate the same principles into their communities.

This is a far cry from demanding that all citizens give their wealth to the state, in exchange for a guarantee of a lifetime income and a social safety net.

Denmark, Sweden and Norway are very successful with their combinations of socialism and capitalism.

They are not socialism. Not even remotely socialism. I don't think you know much about socialism, if you think any of those countries are socialist. They are not.

Have you been there? Do you know people who live there, like I do? Not socialist at all.

Yes, I have been to Scandinavia many, many times.. We spent a week or two there every 18 months.. Usually ignorant hardliners scream about their socialism, but in fact they are capitalists with socialism. .. They are also a homogenous society and very successful with excellent schools and healthcare.

Then why did the Prime Minister of Denmark, come to the US, and proclaim boldly that they were not socialist?

Because they are not. Having excellent schools, doesn't make you socialists. A homogeneous society, has nothing to do with socialism. In fact, having a homogeneous society, I would suggest is the opposite of socialism at this point.

Most socialists support a multicultural society. Most of the Nordic countries are the opposite of multi-cultural.

And as far as having quality health care, we had people sent back to the US, because the doctors said openly that they will get better care in the US.

Now that obviously isn't to say that health care in Denmark is bad. It isn't bad, but it's also horribly expensive.

You live poorer in Denmark, than you do in the US, by a wide margin.

The average software engineer in Denmark, $50k to $60k. In the US, that same software engineer will earn $90k to $100k.

Wages are significantly higher in the US, than in Scandinavia. Promise you. I know people in the US right now, that got a huge pay increase for moving to the US. And they will tell you, as they have me, that the reason they don't move back to home, is because it would mean a massive pay cut.

Not only a pay cut, but taxes there, even on the poorest people, are more than double the taxes here in the US. 40% lower tax rate, and that doesn't include that 25% sales tax that you pay on every single thing you buy, unless you buy specific items the government really hammers on, like cars. Denmark specifically had a 100% tax on cars.

You want to know why more Scandinavians ride bikes? Because they can't afford a car. It's not because they are green, it's because they can't afford to have a car.

And then you look at the price of fuel. Right now in Scandinavia, they are paying over $6.50. Denmark is up at $6.85 a gallon. Again, that's because of taxes.

Look at electricity prices. Denmark is paying 40¢ a kWh, while here in Ohio it's about 10¢ a kWh.

And then look at housing. The average size house is barely 1,200 sq ft. In the US, it's 2,500 sq ft.

The average cost in nordic countries is $700 sq ft, while in the US, we pay on average $350 per sq ft.

So you live in a much smaller place, that costs nearly double the price, while paying 4 times the cost in electricity, and at least 3 to 4 times the cost for fuel, double the cost on cars, paying more than double the taxes, and all while earning less money.

But.... Health care isn't bad.

And by the way, did you know that none of the Nordic countries have welfare? None of them do. There is no welfare. They unemployment compensation. We have that too, and we have welfare.

If you would claim Denmark is socialist because they have unemployment compensation, then what would you call the US, that has both unemployment comp, and welfare, and food stamps, and section 8 housing, and heating assistance, and Women Infant Children support (WIC), and we have Medicaid, and we have free public clinics, and we have pell grants for education, and we have Obama phones, and the list goes on and on and on. And that's just the Federal Level. States have their own welfare programs too, and some cities have their own welfare programs.

So with all due respect.... if Denmark is socialist because they have unemployment compensation, and don't have welfare..... what does that make the US? A stalin like Communist system?

 

[Andylusion]

As i began to read Marx and Engels, it reminded me of the biblical messages i grew up with

By then, I had spent several years realizing that things were not right in our society. And now I saw there were other ways to organize an economy that reward people for their work and enable them to sustain themselves. Capitalism was doing that for some, but it was leaving a whole bunch of other people to suffer and die. And I learned that these class issues could not be divorced from race and gender

There is nothing in the Bible that suggest anything close to Marx and Engels, or any other socialist view.

In fact Capitalism is all throughout the Bible. I could give you dozens on dozens of examples, but here's one to start with, for men trying to find a wife.

Proverbs 31, describes the Christian wife of noble character.

A wife of noble character, who can find? She is far more precious than rubies. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he lacks nothing of value. She brings him good and not harm all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She rises while it is still night to provide food for her household and portions for her maidservants. She appraises a field and buys it; from her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength and shows that her arms are strong. She sees that her gain is good, and her lamp is not extinguished at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household, for they are all clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known at the city gate, where he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing, and she can laugh at the days to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.​

​

Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband praises her as well: “Many daughters have done noble things, but you surpass them all!”​

​

Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her at the gates.​

So what can we learn from this in relation to the topic? In verse 13, it says she carefully selects flax and wool, and works them with her hands, and is like a merchant ships bringing food from afar.

What does that mean? Capitalism. Making a profit. She's buying goods, and selling them.

If you even try and question then, then look at 24 where it says she makes garments, and sells them to the merchants. Capitalism. Owning the means of production.

Then you look at property rights in verse 16, where she buys a field, and plants a vineyard. Again, property rights, and capitalism.

And this is qualities of a woman the Bible says a man should look for. What does that tell you about the Biblical view of capitalism?

We know all women work hard, and that is in the Jewish book, not the Christian book. We are to follow Jesus and not Paul.

So you are saying that Paul, a man who died for his faith in Jesus, and wrote the majority of the NT, is not to be follow? G-d had Paul write most of his book. We are following the Bible. And Jesus never wrote a book. Everything you know about Jesus, was written by other people.

Do you follow Luke? Or Mark? Or John? You either believe the whole Bible, or none of it. If you don't follow Paul, then you don't follow Jesus either, because Jesus sent Paul to write his book for us.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.
they had you in mind when they wrote it -
.
Christianity in the 4th century was dominated in its early stage by Constantine the great and the First Council of Nicaea of 325, which was the beginning of the period of the First seven Ecumenical Councils (325–787), and in its late stage by the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.
.
they spent a 100 years, 4oo years after the events of the 1st century to write and complete the christian bible - "the religion of the roman empire" -

it is you who has no idea who wrote that book or ... the 1st century religious itinerant, the book is supposedly based on. and is a political document disguised as a religion. for the mentally and emotionally - - > depraved. andylooser.

Sorry, but your opinion or the opinion of someone else doesn't trump Scripture. God is fully able to keep his Word intact through the centuries and He did. The Holy Spirit works through God's chosen. Too bad for you and others who attempt to destroy God's Word.

How has he kept his word intact??

There are millions and millions of Bibles all over the planet and millions and millions of people who believe it is God's Word.

Its not the word of God, God didn't tell many men to write the books and Jews wrote the OT and the NT.

Why are there two stories in Genesis about the beginning of time? Did god change his mind?

Jesus was a socialist whether you like it or not.

I love that. You can't find a single instance where Jesus said government should control the means of production and distribution. But somehow he's a socialists, and despite dozens of counter examples throughout the Bible, your only response is "Whether you like it or not"... as if that's an argument, or changes any of the facts we presented, or the fact you didn't present any evidence.

We're just supposed to take your word on "faith"..... How ironic that is for a socialist to be saying that.

Are you done here? Or do you want to just keep repeating the same false claims forever?

As people around the world celebrate Christmas, it is worth remembering that Jesus was a socialist. Of course, he was born long before the rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century, but his radical ideas have influenced many critics of capitalism, including many prominent socialists and even Pope Francis.
Pope Francis has consistently criticized the human and spiritual damage caused by global capitalism, widening inequality, and corporate sweatshops. Last week, he blamed the “god of money” for the extremist violence that is taking place around the world. A ruthless global economy, he argued, leads marginalized people to violence.
In 2013, he released a remarkable 84-page document in which he attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny,” criticized the “idolatry of money,” and urged politicians to guarantee all citizens “dignified work, education and healthcare.”
Jesus Was A Socialist | HuffPost

Unfettered capitalism and greed at the top. We have rich socialism, why not the working man and poor socialism.

You are wrong. Jesus was not a socialist at all.

"rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century" Capitalism always existed.

Matthew 25, starting in verse 14:

The Parable of the Talents​

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

The story of the Minas, spoken by Jesus himself, is a direct affront to all things socialist and affirms Capitalism.

The employer gives some of his wealth to his servants to invest in whatever productivity they can. The servants are expected to work with what their employers gives them to produce a profit for the owner of the capital.

The first two work do well, and work hard to gain a return on the investment. The third one sounds much like the socialists and left-wing people we have in America today.... claiming that the employer, the capitalist, was a "hard man" who harvested where he did not plant, and gathered where he spread no seed.

Jesus said such people were "wicked and slothful", just as they are today. Sitting around complaining they shouldn't have to pay for health care, and demanding ever greater government benefits.

To each of the people who produced a profit for their work, more wealth was given to them. To the wicked and lazy person, what little they had was taken from them.

This is completely the opposite of Socialist ideology, where the poor are given more, the more poor and lazy they are. Where people say that if we cut welfare, the poor children will just starve to death on the streets.

In short, Jesus was the first proponent of Capitalism, before Capitalism existed as a word.

Lastly, Jesus spoke of such people "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

As will all socialists and left-wingers when the time comes.

I don't care what you wrote form the bible, I know Jesus was a socialist's by the 4 gospels.

did you read this "‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed?"

that is what the rich do. the rich man would be a goat.

XD

"I don't care what you wrote form the bible, I know Jesus was a socialist's by the 4 gospels."

(after reading something that not only came from the 4 gospels, but that Jesus himself said)

I don't even know what a rational response would be to your insanity. When someone quotes the gospels, and then you say you don't believe what I said, because you only believe the gospels.... either you don't know the gospels, or you are in need of professional mental help.

"did you read this "‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed?" ​

​

that is what the rich do. the rich man would be a goat."​

Yeah, obviously I did read it, since I just wrote it.
And... Jesus declared the person who said that.... was evil and wicked person who would be cast out into darkness and misery.

You just put yourself in the position of the wicked evil lazy person, who Jesus said will be cast out into misery and darkness.

That would seem to make you opposed to what Jesus stood for. Which calls into question your claims about what you think Jesus stood for.

8 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Right, did he tell all wealthy people everywhere to do that? No, and we know that because he stayed at the homes of wealthy people, and did not tell all of them to give everything away.

In fact, Jesus was buried in the tomb of a wealthy person.

You can't take one passage, and then proclaim that passage over writes the entire rest of the Bible.

Even in that passage, that very passage, Jesus affirms capitalism, and contradicts socialism.

Did Jesus demand he sell everything, and give to the poor? Nope.

Did Jesus demand to elect a government to take the wealth from this man, and give to the poor? Nope.

Jesus wanted the man to voluntarily give to the poor. Freedom of choice. Capitalism. Jesus affirmed that the wealth he owned, was in fact his property.

That's capitalism. And exactly what I told you at the start, that Jesus whole ministry was the opposite of Socilaists. Socialists stand around demanding others help the poor. Let's vote for this politician that will steal that wealthy guys money, and give it to poor. Let's put in place taxes to confiscate the wealth of others, and give it out to those who have not earned it.

But you never see a socialists demand they themselves pay higher taxes. You never see that.

There was a fantastic poll that came out during the Obama years, when they were debating Obama care. The poll asked "Do you support universal health care?" and if you answered yes, then it asked "Do you support UHC if you have to pay 0.5% additional taxes? If you answered yes, it asked 1% taxes? 2% taxes? 5% taxes? 10% taxes?

More than 50% of those polled, answered no they didnt' support universal health are if it required them to pay 0.5% in taxes. And almost 90% said no they don't, at 1%.

That's socialists. They were all for Universal Health Care, if someone else was paying for it. But the moment they said, no YOU have to pay, then oh not so interested.

That's is completely contrary to Jesus teaching. Jesus teaching was never to try and force other people to pay for helping others. It's on YOU to help others. Jesus never supported taking money with taxes, to help others. Jesus always support you VOLUNTARILY, not under compulsion, to help others.

Nothing socialist about his position. Nothing.

Jesus simply told them to render unto Caesar that which was Caesar's.. Taxes.. We are NOT a tiny desert city state with a population of a few thousand people.. Nor are we occupied by Rome or under the yoke of Roman law.

Yeah, and that does not contradict anything I said. I never suggested that we refuse to pay taxes. Still doesn't change the fact that Jesus contradicted socialism, and supported capitalism. Those two facts are not mutually exclusive.

You can follow the law as it is written, and not be a supporter of the law. Are you suggesting that Jesus was supporter of Pilot? You know Pilot, the guy that slaughtered Jews in the Temple? Luke 13:1?

 

[surada]

Jesus instructed his disciples to practice "socialism" amongst themselves. Each was contribute his wealth to the community and all would be provided for. This is why Convents and Monasteries incorporate the same principles into their communities.

This is a far cry from demanding that all citizens give their wealth to the state, in exchange for a guarantee of a lifetime income and a social safety net.

Denmark, Sweden and Norway are very successful with their combinations of socialism and capitalism.

They are not socialism. Not even remotely socialism. I don't think you know much about socialism, if you think any of those countries are socialist. They are not.

Have you been there? Do you know people who live there, like I do? Not socialist at all.

Yes, I have been to Scandinavia many, many times.. We spent a week or two there every 18 months.. Usually ignorant hardliners scream about their socialism, but in fact they are capitalists with socialism. .. They are also a homogenous society and very successful with excellent schools and healthcare.

Then why did the Prime Minister of Denmark, come to the US, and proclaim boldly that they were not socialist?

Because they are not. Having excellent schools, doesn't make you socialists. A homogeneous society, has nothing to do with socialism. In fact, having a homogeneous society, I would suggest is the opposite of socialism at this point.

Most socialists support a multicultural society. Most of the Nordic countries are the opposite of multi-cultural.

And as far as having quality health care, we had people sent back to the US, because the doctors said openly that they will get better care in the US.

Now that obviously isn't to say that health care in Denmark is bad. It isn't bad, but it's also horribly expensive.

You live poorer in Denmark, than you do in the US, by a wide margin.

The average software engineer in Denmark, $50k to $60k. In the US, that same software engineer will earn $90k to $100k.

Wages are significantly higher in the US, than in Scandinavia. Promise you. I know people in the US right now, that got a huge pay increase for moving to the US. And they will tell you, as they have me, that the reason they don't move back to home, is because it would mean a massive pay cut.

Not only a pay cut, but taxes there, even on the poorest people, are more than double the taxes here in the US. 40% lower tax rate, and that doesn't include that 25% sales tax that you pay on every single thing you buy, unless you buy specific items the government really hammers on, like cars. Denmark specifically had a 100% tax on cars.

You want to know why more Scandinavians ride bikes? Because they can't afford a car. It's not because they are green, it's because they can't afford to have a car.

And then you look at the price of fuel. Right now in Scandinavia, they are paying over $6.50. Denmark is up at $6.85 a gallon. Again, that's because of taxes.

Look at electricity prices. Denmark is paying 40¢ a kWh, while here in Ohio it's about 10¢ a kWh.

And then look at housing. The average size house is barely 1,200 sq ft. In the US, it's 2,500 sq ft.

The average cost in nordic countries is $700 sq ft, while in the US, we pay on average $350 per sq ft.

So you live in a much smaller place, that costs nearly double the price, while paying 4 times the cost in electricity, and at least 3 to 4 times the cost for fuel, double the cost on cars, paying more than double the taxes, and all while earning less money.

But.... Health care isn't bad.

And by the way, did you know that none of the Nordic countries have welfare? None of them do. There is no welfare. They unemployment compensation. We have that too, and we have welfare.

If you would claim Denmark is socialist because they have unemployment compensation, then what would you call the US, that has both unemployment comp, and welfare, and food stamps, and section 8 housing, and heating assistance, and Women Infant Children support (WIC), and we have Medicaid, and we have free public clinics, and we have pell grants for education, and we have Obama phones, and the list goes on and on and on. And that's just the Federal Level. States have their own welfare programs too, and some cities have their own welfare programs.

So with all due respect.... if Denmark is socialist because they have unemployment compensation, and don't have welfare..... what does that make the US? A stalin like Communist system?

Scandinavia countries are considered social democracies. Democratic socialism —a hybrid of capitalism and socialism—describes the governing model of Scandinavian nations. The term “The Nordic Model” refers to the specific form of democratic socialism practiced in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland.
Democratic Socialism in Scandinavia: What’s the ...
scandinaviafacts.com/democratic-socialism-scandinavia/

 

[surada]

As i began to read Marx and Engels, it reminded me of the biblical messages i grew up with

By then, I had spent several years realizing that things were not right in our society. And now I saw there were other ways to organize an economy that reward people for their work and enable them to sustain themselves. Capitalism was doing that for some, but it was leaving a whole bunch of other people to suffer and die. And I learned that these class issues could not be divorced from race and gender

There is nothing in the Bible that suggest anything close to Marx and Engels, or any other socialist view.

In fact Capitalism is all throughout the Bible. I could give you dozens on dozens of examples, but here's one to start with, for men trying to find a wife.

Proverbs 31, describes the Christian wife of noble character.

A wife of noble character, who can find? She is far more precious than rubies. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he lacks nothing of value. She brings him good and not harm all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She rises while it is still night to provide food for her household and portions for her maidservants. She appraises a field and buys it; from her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength and shows that her arms are strong. She sees that her gain is good, and her lamp is not extinguished at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household, for they are all clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known at the city gate, where he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing, and she can laugh at the days to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.​

​

Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband praises her as well: “Many daughters have done noble things, but you surpass them all!”​

​

Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her at the gates.​

So what can we learn from this in relation to the topic? In verse 13, it says she carefully selects flax and wool, and works them with her hands, and is like a merchant ships bringing food from afar.

What does that mean? Capitalism. Making a profit. She's buying goods, and selling them.

If you even try and question then, then look at 24 where it says she makes garments, and sells them to the merchants. Capitalism. Owning the means of production.

Then you look at property rights in verse 16, where she buys a field, and plants a vineyard. Again, property rights, and capitalism.

And this is qualities of a woman the Bible says a man should look for. What does that tell you about the Biblical view of capitalism?

We know all women work hard, and that is in the Jewish book, not the Christian book. We are to follow Jesus and not Paul.

So you are saying that Paul, a man who died for his faith in Jesus, and wrote the majority of the NT, is not to be follow? G-d had Paul write most of his book. We are following the Bible. And Jesus never wrote a book. Everything you know about Jesus, was written by other people.

Do you follow Luke? Or Mark? Or John? You either believe the whole Bible, or none of it. If you don't follow Paul, then you don't follow Jesus either, because Jesus sent Paul to write his book for us.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.

You don't get to pick and choose what you part of the Bible you believe. It isn't a buffet, or a choose your own adventure book.

.
they had you in mind when they wrote it -
.
Christianity in the 4th century was dominated in its early stage by Constantine the great and the First Council of Nicaea of 325, which was the beginning of the period of the First seven Ecumenical Councils (325–787), and in its late stage by the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.
.
they spent a 100 years, 4oo years after the events of the 1st century to write and complete the christian bible - "the religion of the roman empire" -

it is you who has no idea who wrote that book or ... the 1st century religious itinerant, the book is supposedly based on. and is a political document disguised as a religion. for the mentally and emotionally - - > depraved. andylooser.

Sorry, but your opinion or the opinion of someone else doesn't trump Scripture. God is fully able to keep his Word intact through the centuries and He did. The Holy Spirit works through God's chosen. Too bad for you and others who attempt to destroy God's Word.

How has he kept his word intact??

There are millions and millions of Bibles all over the planet and millions and millions of people who believe it is God's Word.

Its not the word of God, God didn't tell many men to write the books and Jews wrote the OT and the NT.

Why are there two stories in Genesis about the beginning of time? Did god change his mind?

Jesus was a socialist whether you like it or not.

I love that. You can't find a single instance where Jesus said government should control the means of production and distribution. But somehow he's a socialists, and despite dozens of counter examples throughout the Bible, your only response is "Whether you like it or not"... as if that's an argument, or changes any of the facts we presented, or the fact you didn't present any evidence.

We're just supposed to take your word on "faith"..... How ironic that is for a socialist to be saying that.

Are you done here? Or do you want to just keep repeating the same false claims forever?

As people around the world celebrate Christmas, it is worth remembering that Jesus was a socialist. Of course, he was born long before the rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century, but his radical ideas have influenced many critics of capitalism, including many prominent socialists and even Pope Francis.
Pope Francis has consistently criticized the human and spiritual damage caused by global capitalism, widening inequality, and corporate sweatshops. Last week, he blamed the “god of money” for the extremist violence that is taking place around the world. A ruthless global economy, he argued, leads marginalized people to violence.
In 2013, he released a remarkable 84-page document in which he attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny,” criticized the “idolatry of money,” and urged politicians to guarantee all citizens “dignified work, education and healthcare.”
Jesus Was A Socialist | HuffPost

Unfettered capitalism and greed at the top. We have rich socialism, why not the working man and poor socialism.

You are wrong. Jesus was not a socialist at all.

"rise of industrial capitalism in the 19th century" Capitalism always existed.

Matthew 25, starting in verse 14:

The Parable of the Talents​

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

The story of the Minas, spoken by Jesus himself, is a direct affront to all things socialist and affirms Capitalism.

The employer gives some of his wealth to his servants to invest in whatever productivity they can. The servants are expected to work with what their employers gives them to produce a profit for the owner of the capital.

The first two work do well, and work hard to gain a return on the investment. The third one sounds much like the socialists and left-wing people we have in America today.... claiming that the employer, the capitalist, was a "hard man" who harvested where he did not plant, and gathered where he spread no seed.

Jesus said such people were "wicked and slothful", just as they are today. Sitting around complaining they shouldn't have to pay for health care, and demanding ever greater government benefits.

To each of the people who produced a profit for their work, more wealth was given to them. To the wicked and lazy person, what little they had was taken from them.

This is completely the opposite of Socialist ideology, where the poor are given more, the more poor and lazy they are. Where people say that if we cut welfare, the poor children will just starve to death on the streets.

In short, Jesus was the first proponent of Capitalism, before Capitalism existed as a word.

Lastly, Jesus spoke of such people "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

As will all socialists and left-wingers when the time comes.

Jesus wouldn't have supported corporatism.. IMO.. and I agree he wasn't a socialist . Seems to me he simply accepted government and taxes.

It wasn't really just "accepting" government and taxes, but rather he taught his followers that this world is temporary, and we are not supposed to be all about trying to make this existence into the utopia of Heaven.

As far as it depends on us, we should follow the laws of the land, up until the point they contradict the will of G-d.

This goes back to the shadrach meshach and abednego story, where they all followed every aspect of the foreign country, and foreign laws they were subject to, until.... the law required them to disobey G-d.

Similarly, Christians today we follow the laws, even if we disagree with those laws, up to the point where we are required to disobey G-d. For example serving a gay wedding, or being forced to pay for abortions.

As for socialism, I pay taxes for dozens of programs I completely disagree with, and I argue against those programs, and against the government running them. But it's not a violation of my faith.

Jesus never taught his followers that they should demand other people take care of the poor, and use the power of government to force OTHERS to pay for it. Never was part of Jesus ideology.

Jesus was a Capitalist, and made that clear through dozens of example, like saying we shouldn't be like the gentiles that say "I'm your benefactor".

Like the rich man whom he said, the man should sell his stuff and give it to the poor. Didn't tell him to vote for a government to confiscate his wealth, and give it to the poor. Didn't put a gun to his head and demand he give to the poor. Didn't tell him to join a charity group to collect donations from others, and give to the poor.

He said *YOU* do it, and not by force, but by choice.

That's why the Bible says specifically "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. "

Not under compulsion. NOT.

Socialism does not work without compulsion. There is no example of socialism where people do not take property by force.

That is what socialism is.

Jesus was never for that.

Daniel was written about 200 BC as pious fiction and loosely based on a 1500 year old Syrian poem. How does it play into this claim that Jesus was a capitalist?

 

[LittleNipper]

IIThessalonians 3:10, KJV: "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

Doesn't sound much like socialism to me...

.
4th century forgery, not to mention actually paying them for their work ... work or starve - christianity in a nut shell.

Whatever! And your proof of this is found where and from whom? You don't believe Christians, why believe anyone else?

 

[Wyatt earp]

Where did Jesus or other biblical figures preach to redistribute wealth through the force of government?

By surrounding himself with the rich women and living off of them. He got the tax out of a fish.

Verse?

Who bankrolled his ministry?
Luke 8


Women Who Supported Jesus
8 After this, Jesus traveled from one city and village to another. He spread the Good News about God’s kingdom. The twelve apostles were with him. 2 Also, some women were with him. They had been cured from evil spirits and various illnesses. These women were Mary, also called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out; 3 Joanna, whose husband Chusa was Herod’s administrator; Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.

Have you never heard of people giving donations to support ministries? Or missions support? People support Christian ministries or missionaries WILLINGLY, because they believe in the cause.

That has ZERO to do with government enforced Socialism by the barrel of a gun.

How you can even attempt to equate those two things is mind boggling to me.

Exactly these socialist thinks taxes is charity

 

[LittleNipper]

Jesus instructed his disciples to practice "socialism" amongst themselves. Each was contribute his wealth to the community and all would be provided for. This is why Convents and Monasteries incorporate the same principles into their communities.

This is a far cry from demanding that all citizens give their wealth to the state, in exchange for a guarantee of a lifetime income and a social safety net.

Denmark, Sweden and Norway are very successful with their combinations of socialism and capitalism.

The problem with such countries is that the citizens become complacent, and begin to think that their government is god! House me, feed me, heal me!

 

[surada]

IIThessalonians 3:10, KJV: "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

Doesn't sound much like socialism to me...

.
4th century forgery, not to mention actually paying them for their work ... work or starve - christianity in a nut shell.

Whatever! And your proof of this is found where and from whom? You don't believe Christians, why believe anyone else?

In each letter to the 7 churches, the writer is addressing different problems within that Jewish congregation.

 

[surada]

Jesus instructed his disciples to practice "socialism" amongst themselves. Each was contribute his wealth to the community and all would be provided for. This is why Convents and Monasteries incorporate the same principles into their communities.

This is a far cry from demanding that all citizens give their wealth to the state, in exchange for a guarantee of a lifetime income and a social safety net.

Denmark, Sweden and Norway are very successful with their combinations of socialism and capitalism.

The problem with such countries is that the citizens become complacent, and begin to think that their government is god! House me, feed me, heal me!

Complacent? LOLOL.. Have you been to any of those countries?

 

[K9Buck]

Daniel was written about 200 BC as pious fiction

Are you an atheist?

 

[surada]

Where did Jesus or other biblical figures preach to redistribute wealth through the force of government?

By surrounding himself with the rich women and living off of them. He got the tax out of a fish.

Verse?

Who bankrolled his ministry?
Luke 8


Women Who Supported Jesus
8 After this, Jesus traveled from one city and village to another. He spread the Good News about God’s kingdom. The twelve apostles were with him. 2 Also, some women were with him. They had been cured from evil spirits and various illnesses. These women were Mary, also called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out; 3 Joanna, whose husband Chusa was Herod’s administrator; Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.

Have you never heard of people giving donations to support ministries? Or missions support? People support Christian ministries or missionaries WILLINGLY, because they believe in the cause.

That has ZERO to do with government enforced Socialism by the barrel of a gun.

How you can even attempt to equate those two things is mind boggling to me.

Exactly these socialist thinks taxes is charity

How would you know what they think?

 

[K9Buck]

Jesus instructed his disciples to practice "socialism" amongst themselves. Each was contribute his wealth to the community and all would be provided for. This is why Convents and Monasteries incorporate the same principles into their communities.

This is a far cry from demanding that all citizens give their wealth to the state, in exchange for a guarantee of a lifetime income and a social safety net.

Denmark, Sweden and Norway are very successful with their combinations of socialism and capitalism.

They are not socialism. Not even remotely socialism. I don't think you know much about socialism, if you think any of those countries are socialist. They are not.

Have you been there? Do you know people who live there, like I do? Not socialist at all.

Yes, I have been to Scandinavia many, many times.. We spent a week or two there every 18 months.. Usually ignorant hardliners scream about their socialism, but in fact they are capitalists with socialism. .. They are also a homogenous society and very successful with excellent schools and healthcare.

Then why did the Prime Minister of Denmark, come to the US, and proclaim boldly that they were not socialist?

Because they are not. Having excellent schools, doesn't make you socialists. A homogeneous society, has nothing to do with socialism. In fact, having a homogeneous society, I would suggest is the opposite of socialism at this point.

Most socialists support a multicultural society. Most of the Nordic countries are the opposite of multi-cultural.

And as far as having quality health care, we had people sent back to the US, because the doctors said openly that they will get better care in the US.

Now that obviously isn't to say that health care in Denmark is bad. It isn't bad, but it's also horribly expensive.

You live poorer in Denmark, than you do in the US, by a wide margin.

The average software engineer in Denmark, $50k to $60k. In the US, that same software engineer will earn $90k to $100k.

Wages are significantly higher in the US, than in Scandinavia. Promise you. I know people in the US right now, that got a huge pay increase for moving to the US. And they will tell you, as they have me, that the reason they don't move back to home, is because it would mean a massive pay cut.

Not only a pay cut, but taxes there, even on the poorest people, are more than double the taxes here in the US. 40% lower tax rate, and that doesn't include that 25% sales tax that you pay on every single thing you buy, unless you buy specific items the government really hammers on, like cars. Denmark specifically had a 100% tax on cars.

You want to know why more Scandinavians ride bikes? Because they can't afford a car. It's not because they are green, it's because they can't afford to have a car.

And then you look at the price of fuel. Right now in Scandinavia, they are paying over $6.50. Denmark is up at $6.85 a gallon. Again, that's because of taxes.

Look at electricity prices. Denmark is paying 40¢ a kWh, while here in Ohio it's about 10¢ a kWh.

And then look at housing. The average size house is barely 1,200 sq ft. In the US, it's 2,500 sq ft.

The average cost in nordic countries is $700 sq ft, while in the US, we pay on average $350 per sq ft.

So you live in a much smaller place, that costs nearly double the price, while paying 4 times the cost in electricity, and at least 3 to 4 times the cost for fuel, double the cost on cars, paying more than double the taxes, and all while earning less money.

But.... Health care isn't bad.

And by the way, did you know that none of the Nordic countries have welfare? None of them do. There is no welfare. They unemployment compensation. We have that too, and we have welfare.

If you would claim Denmark is socialist because they have unemployment compensation, then what would you call the US, that has both unemployment comp, and welfare, and food stamps, and section 8 housing, and heating assistance, and Women Infant Children support (WIC), and we have Medicaid, and we have free public clinics, and we have pell grants for education, and we have Obama phones, and the list goes on and on and on. And that's just the Federal Level. States have their own welfare programs too, and some cities have their own welfare programs.

So with all due respect.... if Denmark is socialist because they have unemployment compensation, and don't have welfare..... what does that make the US? A stalin like Communist system?

Scandinavia countries are considered social democracies. Democratic socialism —a hybrid of capitalism and socialism—describes the governing model of Scandinavian nations. The term “The Nordic Model” refers to the specific form of democratic socialism practiced in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland.
Democratic Socialism in Scandinavia: What’s the ...
scandinaviafacts.com/democratic-socialism-scandinavia/

There's nothing "socialist" about them. They have market economies, high taxes, and innumerable government programs. Some call them welfare states. What they are NOT, is "socialist".