Zone1 The Bible on faith, unbelief, pride, humility, & finding Jesus

[BULLDOG]

Biblical accounts are presenting lessons in story form. I find it helpful to identify which literary format is being used to present the lesson. (Don't expect news, Encyclopedia, or textbook formats.) Is the format a Just So story, folklore, fable, legend, apocalyptic, etc.

Remember, the original Hebrew is a picture language, not a subjective language (like most others). Those pictures in word form paints a thousand words. Biblical Hebrew has just over eight thousand words; meanwhile the English language has close to a million words. In each story you are looking at a picture. What you see is even more important than what you are hearing. Find the lesson.

Once again: Hebrew. Throw out literal English and look at the picture(s)--the lesson--the Hebrew is painting.

Also keep in mind not every word in the Bible is about you. It's not your story, it is God's story. And...it's not over...yet.

Ok, so now we are back to which parts do you just ignore? What is your criteria for that choice?

 

[ding]

So explain the criteria, other than your mood at the time for deciding which column to put them in. Do you have hard fast rules, or is it just because you say so?

Maybe start with some context and a big picture understanding of what these accounts are within that context. It requires, time, intelligence, work and objectivity.

I'm having a hard time believing you were ever a deacon.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Maybe start with some context and a big picture understanding of what these accounts are within that context. It requires, time, intelligence, work and objectivity.

I'm having a hard time believing you were ever a deacon.

It does not escape that it is faith and belief before facts.

 

[ding]

It does not escape that it is faith and belief before facts.

For me it was the opposite. As what can be known about God is know through his creation through the light of human reason.

 

[Meriweather]

Ok, so now we are back to which parts do you just ignore? What is your criteria for that choice?

I don't get why we should ignore any part. Your decision seems to have been to ignore all of it.

 

[BULLDOG]

Who did you go to for answers to your hard questions? Who was in your Bible Study group; who led it? What resources were you using to do Biblical research? The hard questions are the best ones to ask, and lengthy, in depth evaluation is a necessity.

Clearly you had expectations from your Bible studies, that these studies failed to meet. Was there a particular expectation where your faith began to crumble?

No, There was not a specific expectation, but I suppose my faith began to faulter when I realized how petty and vindictive the god in the bible was. Punishing entire tribes, down to their infants and livestock for infraction not worthy of a loving god's rage. Of course he spared the young women for sexual party favors for their conquerors. An honest look at the old testament god reveals characteristics not worthy of worship.

I don't get why we should ignore any part. Your decision seems to have been to ignore all of it.

I didn't ignore anything. Use whatever convoluted explanation you want, but it still comes down to some parts are to be taken literally, and other are not. You must have some criteria for that choice. What is it? Which parts of the bible are you comfortable in ignoring and why?

 

[Meriweather]

No, There was not a specific expectation, but I suppose my faith began to faulter when I realized how petty and vindictive the god in the bible was. Punishing entire tribes, down to their infants and livestock for infraction not worthy of a loving god's rage. Of course he spared the young women for sexual party favors for their conquerors. An honest look at the old testament god reveals characteristics not worthy of worship.

God told you to punish entire tribes down to their infants and livestock?

 

[Meriweather]

I didn't ignore anything. Use whatever convoluted explanation you want, but it still comes down to some parts are to be taken literally, and other are not. You must have some criteria for that choice. What is it? Which parts of the bible are you comfortable in ignoring and why?

I mentioned before that I recognized a long time ago, not everything in the Bible was about me or even my life. But the things that hit home illustrated two paths: Love of God leads to love of his Law (including Commandments, beatitudes, parables, lessons, teachings). Love of God's Law leads to love of God.

Love is working for and wanting the good of another/others. Have you ever considered that those who cut God out of his/her life have an emptiness only God can fill.

 

[BULLDOG]

I mentioned before that I recognized a long time ago, not everything in the Bible was about me or even my life. But the things that hit home illustrated two paths: Love of God leads to love of his Law (including Commandments, beatitudes, parables, lessons, teachings). Love of God's Law leads to love of God.

Love is working for and wanting the good of another/others. Have you ever considered that those who cut God out of his/her life have an emptiness only God can fill.

Emptiness that only god can fill? I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that from someone who couldn't answer simple questions. It's right up there with "pray harder", and "just believe, and all your questions will be answered" If you ever figure out what criteria you use, and it's not "because that's what I want to believe" let me know.

 

[Meriweather]

Emptiness that only god can fill? I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that from someone who couldn't answer simple questions. It's right up there with "pray harder", and "just believe, and all your questions will be answered" If you ever figure out what criteria you use, and it's not "because that's what I want to believe" let me know.

I don't know what others meant, by 'emptiness' but what I meant is that you elected not to bother because it freed up time spent in prayer, going to church services, Bible study, etc. You chose to empty yourself of things of God and spend your time on something else--and yes, even being a couch potato is "something else". You say you no longer believe because of what happened in Old Testament times, which is pretty lame. What did God do to you in your own time?

I already told you what criteria I use. Apparently you came to the conclusion it would not work for you, just as others suggesting to you "pray harder" (not my advice) or "just believe" (not my advice) and "all your questions will be answered" (they won't be) is not anything close to what I suggested. You found your excuse not to believe and you are sticking to it. Having found a reason not to bother, you gave up, you quit, most likely because you really wanted to spend time doing something else. So do it and be content.

 

[BULLDOG]

I don't know what others meant, by 'emptiness' but what I meant is that you elected not to bother because it freed up time spent in prayer, going to church services, Bible study, etc. You chose to empty yourself of things of God and spend your time on something else--and yes, even being a couch potato is "something else". You say you no longer believe because of what happened in Old Testament times, which is pretty lame. What did God do to you in your own time?

I already told you what criteria I use. Apparently you came to the conclusion it would not work for you, just as others suggesting to you "pray harder" (not my advice) or "just believe" (not my advice) and "all your questions will be answered" (they won't be) is not anything close to what I suggested. You found your excuse not to believe and you are sticking to it. Having found a reason not to bother, you gave up, you quit, most likely because you really wanted to spend time doing something else. So do it and be content.

Old testament times depict the same god as the new testament don't they? Was there some sort of election that I'm unaware of where another god took over? Old vs new is only only part of the contradictions in the Bible. I'm not sure how Paul's teachings, which clearly contradict Jesus' teachings gained precedence over Jesus' teachings. Plenty of contradictions and impossibilities in the Bible.
I can truly say god did nothing to cause me to not believe he exists. If he had, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
You have made it clear that you do differentiate between Bible passages you take to be literal and those that are other, but you haven't bothered to even try to explain your criteria to do so.

 

[Meriweather]

Old testament times depict the same god as the new testament don't they? Was there some sort of election that I'm unaware of where another god took over? Old vs new is only only part of the contradictions in the Bible. I'm not sure how Paul's teachings, which clearly contradict Jesus' teachings gained precedence over Jesus' teachings. Plenty of contradictions and impossibilities in the Bible.

Old Testament times depict different cultures, knowledge, circumstances, and perspectives than we live in today. Accounts of events are told in an entirely different way than records are written and kept today. In one chapter we read that the Amalekites were completely wiped out. A chapter or so later they are alive and well and up to their usual ways.

Recall the Egyptians slaughtering the male babies of the Jews. Recall the Amalekites and other tribes not following the practices regarding battles in that day and age, where opposing armies lined up in front to fight each other while women and children remained protected in the rear. No, these opposing tribes, crept up on the Israelites, attacked the rear, killing women and children.

I can truly say god did nothing to cause me to not believe he exists. If he had, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
You have made it clear that you do differentiate between Bible passages you take to be literal and those that are other, but you haven't bothered to even try to explain your criteria to do so.

Then you miss most of what I write. You and I joined this forum in the same year. We have had similar discussions throughout this time. Over and over again I have stated the following recommendations:

1. Seek and find God before delving into the Bible.
2. The Bible is to be studied, not read.
3. When it comes to the Old Testament, at least study commentaries of Jewish rabbis and Jewish scholars if you are not fortunate enough to have an acquaintance with a Jew whose first language is Hebrew.
4. Study non-Biblical histories, languages, cultures of Biblical times.
5. The Bible is not about you and not all of it pertains to you. It is the story of God in the midst of us, his people.
6. Each Bible story presents a lesson. Instead of trying to figure out if the account is literal or figurative, study the lesson. Does that lesson pertain to your own life or was it for people in other conditions?

Even in our most recent discussion, I've covered at least some of the above yet again. All of this takes time--and I am talking decades. I understand you waited until you retired, read the Old Testament and jumped to conclusions. How long did this study take you? A year? Maybe two? Longer? A lot shorter? In any case, it's not enough time.

Bulldog, ever since I was a toddler, learning, knowing, seeking God was an interest and a priority in my life. All of this requires a lot of time and determination. Guess what? Life also has a lot of other things that take time, interest, and determination. Religion/Faith/God is often something--by necessity--that gets pushed aside due to lack of time and the fact that it is hard work. All I want is to be able to encourage people who do not have the time and/or energy to overcome the obstacles that are present when following the Way. Your way does not need to be blocked by the Amalekites of long ago. You have your life. Start with, "Here I am, Lord, send me." He will send you into your everyday life with your everyday issues and problems, because there is always something to do/accomplish in the usual life. Loving anyone--especially God--is often overwhelming.

7. Love God. He is (as he says) I Am

 

[BULLDOG]

Old Testament times depict different cultures, knowledge, circumstances, and perspectives than we live in today. Accounts of events are told in an entirely different way than records are written and kept today. In one chapter we read that the Amalekites were completely wiped out. A chapter or so later they are alive and well and up to their usual ways.

Recall the Egyptians slaughtering the male babies of the Jews. Recall the Amalekites and other tribes not following the practices regarding battles in that day and age, where opposing armies lined up in front to fight each other while women and children remained protected in the rear. No, these opposing tribes, crept up on the Israelites, attacked the rear, killing women and children.

Then you miss most of what I write. You and I joined this forum in the same year. We have had similar discussions throughout this time. Over and over again I have stated the following recommendations:

1. Seek and find God before delving into the Bible.
2. The Bible is to be studied, not read.
3. When it comes to the Old Testament, at least study commentaries of Jewish rabbis and Jewish scholars if you are not fortunate enough to have an acquaintance with a Jew whose first language is Hebrew.
4. Study non-Biblical histories, languages, cultures of Biblical times.
5. The Bible is not about you and not all of it pertains to you. It is the story of God in the midst of us, his people.
6. Each Bible story presents a lesson. Instead of trying to figure out if the account is literal or figurative, study the lesson. Does that lesson pertain to your own life or was it for people in other conditions?

Even in our most recent discussion, I've covered at least some of the above yet again. All of this takes time--and I am talking decades. I understand you waited until you retired, read the Old Testament and jumped to conclusions. How long did this study take you? A year? Maybe two? Longer? A lot shorter? In any case, it's not enough time.

Bulldog, ever since I was a toddler, learning, knowing, seeking God was an interest and a priority in my life. All of this requires a lot of time and determination. Guess what? Life also has a lot of other things that take time, interest, and determination. Religion/Faith/God is often something--by necessity--that gets pushed aside due to lack of time and the fact that it is hard work. All I want is to be able to encourage people who do not have the time and/or energy to overcome the obstacles that are present when following the Way. Your way does not need to be blocked by the Amalekites of long ago. You have your life. Start with, "Here I am, Lord, send me." He will send you into your everyday life with your everyday issues and problems, because there is always something to do/accomplish in the usual life. Loving anyone--especially God--is often overwhelming.

7. Love God. He is (as he says) I Am

At least you admit much of it is made up and not pertaining to the reader. The Bible, which is the predominant source for our knowledge of the Christian god (there are many gods) is inaccurate and misleading. A supposed loving god who actually wants people to believe in him would have to be massively incompetent to allow that to happen.

 

[Meriweather]

At least you admit much of it is made up and not pertaining to the reader. The Bible, which is the predominant source for our knowledge of the Christian god (there are many gods) is inaccurate and misleading. A supposed loving god who actually wants people to believe in him would have to be massively incompetent to allow that to happen.

Actually, it is your conclusion that "much of it is made up". I merely pointed out much of it is misunderstood and these misunderstandings are the basis many use to give up God, religion, faith. This is why my first recommendation has always been to seek and find God before Bible study, and while studying to immerse oneself in non-Biblical research as well.

 

[BULLDOG]

Actually, it is your conclusion that "much of it is made up". I merely pointed out much of it is misunderstood and these misunderstandings are the basis many use to give up God, religion, faith. This is why my first recommendation has always been to seek and find God before Bible study, and while studying to immerse oneself in non-Biblical research as well.

Not literal is made up.

 

[Meriweather]

Not literal is made up.

That's your conclusion as you were raised using the subjective, English language in modern Western culture. What was the memorable lesson(s) being presented by Biblical authors, using an objective/picturesque language to ancient, Middle-East cultures?