Zone1 The Best Evidence For The Resurrection

[Hypatia415]

Yes. That's within about forty years of the death of Christ. You realize that's a newsflash from the ancient world, right?

Second, you hold up the same thing in A the G you decry for Jesus Christ. Fragment survive quoted by later historians.

The fragments of the gospels that survive are copies they are not the actual texts. The earliest example is regarded by academics to be P52, a fragment of the gospel of John. It measures 7.9 cm x 5.5 cm (3.4 x 2.5 inches). Its given dates are somewhere around 125-140 CE.

 

[Hypatia415]

What is the source of the quote you attribute to Hypatia in your signature?

Let's go over that, shall we?

It is an attribution. Not dissimilar to those verses attributed to coming from the mouth of Jesus.

 

[Hypatia415]

The Jesus character was taken form the hero story that had existed for many previous religions. It was adapted to create Jesus who was literally an idol

Joseph Campbell originally outlined the Hero's Journey (or "monomyth") in his 1949 book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, detailing a 17-stage process divided into three main phases: Departure, Initiation, and Return. [1]
The popular 12-step adaptation was later synthesized by Hollywood writer Christopher Vogler to make the framework more actionable for storytelling and character arcs. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Phase 1: Departure
The hero begins in their familiar everyday environment but receives a call that pulls them into the unknown. [1]

• 1. The Ordinary World:The hero's normal life is established, setting a baseline before the adventure begins.
  • 2. The Call to Adventure: The hero is faced with a challenge, quest, or problem that must be undertaken.
  • 3. Refusal of the Call: The hero initially hesitates or tries to turn away due to fear, obligation, or perceived inadequacy.
  • 4. Meeting the Mentor: The hero meets a guiding figure who provides advice, training, or magical items to help them on their path.
  • 5. Crossing the First Threshold: The hero fully commits to the journey by leaving their comfort zone and entering the unfamiliar "special" world. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]

Phase 2: Initiation
The hero navigates the challenges of the unknown world, facing enemies, allies, and their ultimate test. [1, 2]

• 6. Tests, Allies, and Enemies: The hero adjusts to the new world, learning the rules while making friends and encountering obstacles.
• 7. Approach to the Inmost Cave: The hero and their allies prepare for a major challenge in the heart of the unknown.
• 8. The Ordeal: The hero faces their greatest fear or most difficult physical challenge, experiencing a metaphorical or literal "death" and subsequent rebirth.
• 9. The Reward: Having survived the ordeal, the hero takes possession of the ultimate prize, treasure, or secret they sought. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Phase 3: Return
The hero must bring their newfound wisdom, power, or salvation back to the ordinary world. [1, 2]

• 10. The Road Back: The consequences of the reward catch up to the hero as they realize they must return home with their prize.
• 11. The Resurrection: The hero faces one final, ultimate test where everything is at stake, proving they have truly transformed.
• 12. Return with the Elixir: The hero returns to the ordinary world permanently changed, bringing the "elixir" (knowledge, peace, or a boon) that benefits their entire community. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

As you appear to be a mythicist we must agree to disagree.

The known historical situation from the mid first century BCE and into the first century CE within the region we now call Palestine with its two class structure led to various movements and leaders among the peasantry.

 

[Bad Bob]

I have extremely briefly illustrated how your religion developed.

We have no idea what the men and women who knew Jesus of Nazareth thought about him as none of them has left us any written record.

The earliest texts that we do have are 7 authentic epistles from Paul but as with all the other NT texts we do not have the originals.

Several of the basic tenets for being a Christian derive from his ideas. You have to believe Christ Jesus died for your sins. You have to believe in the significance of the resurrection with regard to that, and you have to be baptised into the religion.

The belief in Jesus being the incarnate Son of God and the belief in a Triune deity came several centuries later after much ecclesiastical debate, argument, and on occasion violence.

However, your inability to present any academic texts and your tendency to resort to using what is nothing but opinion sourced online demonstrates you do not have any real understanding of the complex development of your religion from the late first century (post 70 CE) to the mid fifth century CE.

Disagreed that we don't know "what the men and women who knew Jesus of Nazareth thought about him" since we have the results. Many of the Apostles were martyred for their beliefs.

Even if we don't have factual knowledge of an event, it's still possible to observe the results like ripples in a pond. We don't know if it was a rock falling in or a fish bobbing, but the results indicate something disturbed the water. Claiming the ripples are fabricated because we didn't see the initial event is flawed logic.

What Happened to the 12 Apostles and How Did They Die?

Learn what happened to the 12 apostles after the death of Jesus - how each of the apostles spread out to minister and evangelize and how many of the apostles died for their faith.

www.christianity.com

Peter and Paul​

Both were martyred in Rome about 66 AD, during the persecution under Emperor Nero. Paul was beheaded. Peter was crucified upside down at his request since he did not feel worthy to die in the same manner as his Lord.


Of the twelve apostles, the deaths of just a measly pair, James and Judas Iscariot, managed to snag themselves a mention in the Bible. For details on the remaining apostles’ fates, we must rely on other ancient Christian and secular texts, as well as church oral tradition.

One thing that we can be fairly certain of is the fact that most of them were killed in quite brutal and gruesome ways for refusing to shut up about the man they called the Messiah.

 

[Hafar1014]

As you appear to be a mythicist we must agree to disagree.

The known historical situation from the mid first century BCE and into the first century CE within the region we now call Palestine with its two class structure led to various movements and leaders among the peasantry.

Jesus is a myth based on the historical hero story. The monotheism of the Jews with an abstract god was too complicated for people who grew up worshiping idols. So they created one and gave it a name face and personality.

As you appear to be a mythicist we must agree to disagree.

The known historical situation from the mid first century BCE and into the first century CE within the region we now call Palestine with its two class structure led to various movements and leaders among the peasantry.

Palestine is the Roman name for Judea and Samra. No nation called Palestine ever existed. Therefore there are no Palestinians. Gaza was created by Egypt. The West Bank are all JOrdanians expelled by King Hssein.

Jesus was created because people who grew up worshiping idols could accepet the abstract no name god of the Jews. So they changed the meaning of Genesis from Gods moral teaching of man and trail for mans freedom to original sin and the fall of man. Then they created a devil and hell to use as threat to compel obedience. They layered holidays over existing ones Christmas over the winter solstice, Easter over spring fertility, murdered all the Gnostics and Christinaity was born. They persecuetd the Jews for 2000 years and finally stopped. Even barbarians can evolve.

 

[norwegen]

No evidence for resurrection. I do believe we have evidence for the Holy Spirit, though, which I don't think we can attribute to mass psychosis.

No proof of anything, even Jesus' existence. Only evidence, unless we can separate him from the Holy Spirit.

The story of Jesus was apparently transcribed after the facts of the New Testament narrative, or the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, i.e., the end of the age. It seems a way for the Jews to have explained away their demise.

But then Paul and those he corresponds with also discus this looming world-changing calamity. And Paul's existence isn't really disputed. So it lends credence to Jesus' words. But amazingly, Jesus talks about this long before other Jews do. Long before tensions between the Jews and Romans reach a fever pitch.

Does that mean anything definitive?

What it means for me is that we have no reason not to believe him, especially considering the profound and widespread effects on the earth's landscape that he and the Holy Spirit have had.

 

[Hafar1014]

No evidence for resurrection. I do believe we have evidence for the Holy Spirit, though, which I don't think we can attribute to mass psychosis.

No proof of anything, even Jesus' existence. Only evidence, unless we can separate him from the Holy Spirit.

The story of Jesus was apparently transcribed after the facts of the New Testament narrative, or the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, i.e., the end of the age. It seems a way for the Jews to have explained away their demise.

But then Paul and those he corresponds with also discus this looming world-changing calamity. And Paul's existence isn't really disputed. So it lends credence to Jesus' words. But amazingly, Jesus talks about this long before other Jews do. Long before tensions between the Jews and Romans reach a fever pitch.

Does that mean anything definitive?

What it means for me is that we have no reason not to believe him, especially considering the profound and widespread effects on the earth's landscape that he and the Holy Spirit have had.

Like the killing of the Gnostics, The Crusades, the persecution of the Jews, Spanish Inquisition and other Christian atrocities

 

[Bad Bob]

No evidence for resurrection. I do believe we have evidence for the Holy Spirit, though, which I don't think we can attribute to mass psychosis.

No proof of anything, even Jesus' existence. Only evidence, unless we can separate him from the Holy Spirit.

The story of Jesus was apparently transcribed after the facts of the New Testament narrative, or the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, i.e., the end of the age. It seems a way for the Jews to have explained away their demise.

But then Paul and those he corresponds with also discus this looming world-changing calamity. And Paul's existence isn't really disputed. So it lends credence to Jesus' words. But amazingly, Jesus talks about this long before other Jews do. Long before tensions between the Jews and Romans reach a fever pitch.

Does that mean anything definitive?

What it means for me is that we have no reason not to believe him, especially considering the profound and widespread effects on the earth's landscape that he and the Holy Spirit have had.

As mentioned above, I believe it's possible Jesus survived his few hours nailed to a cross even if he died later. Obviously it would be seen as a "miracle" by his apostles and explains why they would be willing to die for their beliefs.

If the "resurrection" never happened, why were his apostles such fervent believers? You and I can agree that many parts of the story are probably exaggerated such as the virgin birth, but his apostles spreading the word about Jesus and being martyred for those beliefs tells me they strongly believed in the "resurrection" because they witnessed it.

 

[Hafar1014]

As mentioned above, I believe it's possible Jesus survived his few hours nailed to a cross even if he died later. Obviously it would be seen as a "miracle" by his apostles and explains why they would be willing to die for their beliefs.

If the "resurrection" never happened, why were his apostles such fervent believers? You and I can agree that many parts of the story are probably exaggerated such as the virgin birth, but his apostles spreading the word about Jesus and being martyred for those beliefs tells me they strongly believed in the "resurrection" because they witnessed it.

Virgin birth death a and rebirth is th classic hero story not unique

 

[Bad Bob]

Virgin birth death a and rebirth is th classic hero story not unique

Agreed. However, that doesn't change the fact most of the apostles ended up dying for their beliefs.
Why would they do that for a myth? What is your explanation for their behavior?

 

[BreezeWood]

No, Jesus didn't record his own life.

she was murdered by a mob of Christians led by a lector named Peter.

the true tragedy of the 1st century events and its conclusion is jesus was prevented from putting to script their message of liberation theology, self determination they gave their life for ...

as many others, hypatia, the desert religions have persecuted and victimized than allow their message to reach fruition - as rather instead insuring the 4th century christian bible written by that time's crucifiers using jesus for their own purpose than those of the 1st century repudiation of servitude and denial - sour sue 92.

 

[Hypatia415]

Jesus is a myth based on the historical hero story. The monotheism of the Jews with an abstract god was too complicated for people who grew up worshiping idols. So they created one and gave it a name face and personality.

Your opinions are duly noted.

Palestine is the Roman name for Judea and Samra. No nation called Palestine ever existed. Therefore there are no Palestinians. Gaza was created by Egypt. The West Bank are all JOrdanians expelled by King Hssein.

Jesus was created because people who grew up worshiping idols could accepet the abstract no name god of the Jews. So they changed the meaning of Genesis from Gods moral teaching of man and trail for mans freedom to original sin and the fall of man. Then they created a devil and hell to use as threat to compel obedience. They layered holidays over existing ones Christmas over the winter solstice, Easter over spring fertility, murdered all the Gnostics and Christinaity was born. They persecuetd the Jews for 2000 years and finally stopped. Even barbarians can evolve.

If you recall I referred to the region that "we now call Palestine".

However, if we want to be pedantic. Palestine | History, People, Conflict, & Religion | Britannica

The word Palestine came into English from Greek (via Latin). The earliest incontrovertible use of the term is attested in Herodotus’s History. The Greek word may have been derived directly or indirectly from more-local sources: earlier Egyptian and Assyrian inscriptions refer to a people called some variant of Peleset or Palastu, respectively, but whom these terms refer to remains uncertain. The Hebrew Bible later used a similar term, Peleshet, to refer to the Philistines, a people of Aegean origin who settled on the southern coast in the 12th century bce. In the 2nd century ce the name was first used administratively by the Romans in the term Syria Palaestina, designating the southern portion of the province of Syria. In the Byzantine era the name was used for the provinces of Palaestina Prima, Palaestina Secunda, and Palaestina Salutaris (or Tertia). Palaestina Prima was then administered as a jund (military district) by the Arabic name Filasṭīn in the early Islamic era. After the Crusades the name remained in informal use as a geographic designation, but it had no official status until after World War I and the end of rule by the Ottoman Empire, when it was adopted for one of the regions mandated to Great Britain.

 

[BreezeWood]

Are you actually expecting us to have the original documents--like the parchment or whatever--from 2000 years ago? Written by hand by Matthew and John?

of course, just look for them in the archives they painstakenly preserved of the documents used to write their 4th century christian bible ... 0 - and when you find the archives let us all know.

jesus is not mentioned in a single dead sea scroll ... written by jews is not surprising.

also, jesus the itinerant made famous surly used american express for their daily expenses and lodging w/ those receipts - all will be fine.

 

[Hypatia415]

As mentioned above, I believe it's possible Jesus survived his few hours nailed to a cross even if he died later. Obviously it would be seen as a "miracle" by his apostles and explains why they would be willing to die for their beliefs.

Have you read Schonfield's 1965 work The Passover Plot?

If the "resurrection" never happened, why were his apostles such fervent believers?

We do not know that they were "fervent believers" as we have nothing in writing from any of them. It appears that James was later considered to have been a law breaker as Josephus tells us:

But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned. [See Antiquities XX.ix]

What the precise nature of the crime, if indeed there was one, might have been Josephus does not say.

You and I can agree that many parts of the story are probably exaggerated such as the virgin birth, but his apostles spreading the word about Jesus and being martyred for those beliefs tells me they strongly believed in the "resurrection" because they witnessed it.

Which of the disciples was martyred for their beliefs? Which disciples spread the word? We have nothing on those men who knew the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth, apart from Christian tradition. The main spreader of the word "about Jesus " as you call it was Paul and he had his own divinely revealed gospel as he clearly tells his proselytes in chapter one of Galatians.

11 For I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel that was proclaimed by me is not of human origin, 12 for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Nor do we any idea what happened to him either, apart from further Christian traditions.

 

[Hypatia415]

Disagreed that we don't know "what the men and women who knew Jesus of Nazareth thought about him" since we have the results. Many of the Apostles were martyred for their beliefs.

Even if we don't have factual knowledge of an event, it's still possible to observe the results like ripples in a pond. We don't know if it was a rock falling in or a fish bobbing, but the results indicate something disturbed the water. Claiming the ripples are fabricated because we didn't see the initial event is flawed logic.

What Happened to the 12 Apostles and How Did They Die?

Learn what happened to the 12 apostles after the death of Jesus - how each of the apostles spread out to minister and evangelize and how many of the apostles died for their faith.

www.christianity.com

Peter and Paul​

Both were martyred in Rome about 66 AD, during the persecution under Emperor Nero. Paul was beheaded. Peter was crucified upside down at his request since he did not feel worthy to die in the same manner as his Lord.


Of the twelve apostles, the deaths of just a measly pair, James and Judas Iscariot, managed to snag themselves a mention in the Bible. For details on the remaining apostles’ fates, we must rely on other ancient Christian and secular texts, as well as church oral tradition.

One thing that we can be fairly certain of is the fact that most of them were killed in quite brutal and gruesome ways for refusing to shut up about the man they called the Messiah.

Everything you have written is premised on Christian traditions. Nothing more.

 

[Hypatia415]

Virgin birth death a and rebirth is th classic hero story not unique

As I noted to another contributor the virgin birth story derives from a mistranslation in the LXX. However, such a story would have resonated with a Hellenistic audience that was steeped in stories of gods descending and impregnating mortal women to produce demi-gods and heroes. And Christianity developed within the Hellenistic milieu.

 

[norwegen]

As mentioned above, I believe it's possible Jesus survived his few hours nailed to a cross even if he died later. Obviously it would be seen as a "miracle" by his apostles and explains why they would be willing to die for their beliefs.

If the "resurrection" never happened, why were his apostles such fervent believers? You and I can agree that many parts of the story are probably exaggerated such as the virgin birth, but his apostles spreading the word about Jesus and being martyred for those beliefs tells me they strongly believed in the "resurrection" because they witnessed it.

Jesus surviving crucifixion isn't part of the narrative. It's irrelevant.

Even the ancients knew resurrection to be humanly impossible, and none had ever seen deified creators walking around making it happen. Jesus' disciples may have believed . . . eventually. As did others, of course, according to the story. But it wasn't something they just all of a sudden started blabbing about. After the fact, they dutifully remained in Jerusalem as their Lord had instructed, and they took it all in, trying to understand.

It wasn't front-page news.

Despite Pentecost, the Jerusalem Council, and whatever other events the primitive Christians were involved in, Christianity didn't really spread in any significant way until after the temple fell and the Jews stopped persecuting its adherents.

 

[Bad Bob]

Jesus surviving crucifixion isn't part of the narrative. It's irrelevant.

Even the ancients knew resurrection to be humanly impossible, and none had ever seen deified creators walking around making it happen. Jesus' disciples may have believed . . . eventually. As did others, of course, according to the story. But it wasn't something they just all of a sudden started blabbing about. After the fact, they dutifully remained in Jerusalem as their Lord had instructed, and they took it all in, trying to understand.

It wasn't front-page news.

Despite Pentecost, the Jerusalem Council, and whatever other events the primitive Christians were involved in, Christianity didn't really spread in any significant way until after the temple fell and the Jews stopped persecuting its adherents.

Disagreed since the apostles died because they believed they witnessed a miracle......annnnd everyone is still talking about it 2000 years later.

FWIW, I believe God created the Universe with specific rules. There's no such thing as magic, ESP or other supernatural phenomena. Ergo, everything that happens has to fit within the realm of probability and natural law. In short, I agree: the dead don't rise. If someone does, like Lazarus or Jesus, then they weren't really dead.

 

[norwegen]

Disagreed since the apostles died because they believed they witnessed a miracle......annnnd everyone is still talking about it 2000 years later.

Can you show us something that says Jesus died from anything other than crucifixion? You don't disagree with me; you disagree with the story.

Argue with your Bible, not with me.

 

[Bad Bob]

Everything you have written is premised on Christian traditions. Nothing more.

Then explain the ripples such as the apostles dying for their beliefs?