Zone1 The Best Evidence For The Resurrection

[alang1216]

Wasn't it just the other day that you were arguing that everyone is biased?

Then don't give it a second thought. You're right. You're not biased. You're the one person on the planet that isn't biased.

I like to think I am biased but less biased than most. Might be my bias speaking but I consider myself pragmatic and open.

 

[SweetSue92]

Those words are put into the mouth of Jesus by much later texts and they echo the beliefs of Paul who gained his ideas via various mystical encounters.

As I wrote to ding no one was following Jesus around with a dictaphone.

Oh. Did anyone follow Hypatia around with a dictaphone? Yes? No?

You're funny

 

[Hypatia415]

Oh. Did anyone follow Hypatia around with a dictaphone? Yes? No?

You're funny

Hypatia is not revered as a divine being. However, she is recognised as having been a gifted astronomer, philosopher, and mathematician.

 

[SweetSue92]

Hypatia is not revered as a divine being. However, she is recognised as having been a gifted astronomer, philosopher, and mathematician.

Sure you'll honor her "recognition" but not one much more credentialed in the ancient world. Makes sense!

 

[Hypatia415]

Sure you'll honor her "recognition" but not one much more credentialed in the ancient world. Makes sense!

And who might be this "one much more credentialed in the ancient world" ?

 

[SweetSue92]

And who might be this "one much more credentialed in the ancient world" ?

Listen, you taking on the name of this ancient so-called expert based on flimsy documentation and then bagging on Jesus Christ is pretty funny.

 

[Hypatia415]

Listen, you taking on the name of this ancient so-called expert based on flimsy documentation and then bagging on Jesus Christ is pretty funny.

Oh dear "Listen"? That sounds mildly aggressive.

The historical figure we now call Jesus of Nazareth is not the construct of Christ Jesus that developed from Pauline theology.

Perhaps you might care to read her entry in Britannica. Hypatia | Death, Facts, & Biography | Britannica

 

[SweetSue92]

Oh dear "Listen"? That sounds mildly aggressive.

The historical figure we now call Jesus of Nazareth is not the construct of Christ Jesus that developed from Pauline theology.

Perhaps you might care to read her entry in Britannica. Hypatia | Death, Facts, & Biography | Britannica

Not a single one of her writings survive. Yet you made her your namesake. Okay.

 

[Hypatia415]

Not a single one of her writings survive. Yet you made her your namesake. Okay.

Not a single writing from Jesus of Nazareth has yet been discovered. Do you have a point?

 

[SweetSue92]

Not a single writing from Jesus of Nazareth has yet been discovered. Do you have a point?

No, Jesus didn't record his own life. Others did though, others who claimed to have known him personally or close to.

That's not good enough for you from the ancient world but somehow Hypatia is. God in heaven please save us from more anti-Christian Europeans on American forums, thank you.

 

[rightwinger]

No, Jesus didn't record his own life. Others did though, others who claimed to have known him personally or close to.

Disciples of Jesus recorded their recollections.
But there was no contemporary documentation of Jesus
For centuries, Christian scholars poured over records of that time to try to prove the existence of Jesus and confirm Biblical claims.
They have been unable to do so.

 

[SweetSue92]

Disciples of Jesus recorded their recollections.
But there was no contemporary documentation of Jesus
For centuries, Christian scholars poured over records of that time to try to prove the existence of Jesus and confirm Biblical claims.
They have been unable to do so.

First:

The Gospels ARE contemporary documentations of Christ.

Do you know Alexander the Great's life was "recorded" 300-500 years after his death? And that no records from the time remain?

Geez

 

[Hypatia415]

No, Jesus didn't record his own life. Others did though, others who claimed to have known him personally or close to.

Not one of those who may have known the historical figure has left any written record of him. The gospels are all much later texts and their authors likely never visited the region.

Paul, our earliest source, never met the man.

 

[Hypatia415]

Disciples of Jesus recorded their recollections.

No they did not.

But there was no contemporary documentation of Jesus

Agreed.

For centuries, Christian scholars poured over records of that time to try to prove the existence of Jesus and confirm Biblical claims.
They have been unable to do so.

I do not doubt the existence of a historical figure. However, the various Jesus figures we are presented with in the four canonical gospels are constructed. We do get fleeting glimpses of a real Galilean Jewish ascetic in Mark and again in Matthew but these heavily overlaid with Christian gloss.

 

[SweetSue92]

Not one of those who may have known the historical figure has left any written record of him. The gospels are all much later texts and their authors likely never visited the region.

Paul, our earliest source, never met the man.

What are you talking about?

Are you actually expecting us to have the original documents--like the parchment or whatever--from 2000 years ago? Written by hand by Matthew and John?

What are you even on about?

 

[Hypatia415]

First:

The Gospels ARE contemporary documentations of Christ.

No they are not. The earliest gospel, that of Mark, is dated to around 70 CE.

Do you know Alexander the Great's life was "recorded" 300-500 years after his death? And that no records from the time remain?

Geez

You are incorrect. There were several contemporary scholars, courtiers, and writers who knew Alexander and some even accompanied him to the east. Unfortunately their works only survive in fragments but those have been quoted by later historians.

 

[SweetSue92]

No they are not. The earliest gospel, that of Mark, is dated to around 70 CE.

You are incorrect. There were several contemporary scholars, courtiers, and writers who knew Alexander and some even accompanied him to the east. Unfortunately their works only survive in fragments but those have been quoted by later historians.

Yes. That's within about forty years of the death of Christ. You realize that's a newsflash from the ancient world, right?

Second, you hold up the same thing in A the G you decry for Jesus Christ. Fragment survive quoted by later historians.

 

[Hypatia415]

What are you talking about?

Are you actually expecting us to have the original documents--like the parchment or whatever--from 2000 years ago? Written by hand by Matthew and John?

We have no original MSS from any NT text. And we have no authentic texts even as copies from any of the men who knew the historical personage we call Jesus of Nazareth. Furthermore, the appending of the four evangelists names to the four canonical gospels occurred at a much later date.

 

[SweetSue92]

We have no original MSS from any NT text. And we have no authentic texts even as copies from any of the men who knew the historical personage we call Jesus of Nazareth. Furthermore, the appending of the four evangelists names to the four canonical gospels occurred at a much later date.

What is the source of the quote you attribute to Hypatia in your signature?

Let's go over that, shall we?

 

[Hafar1014]

No they did not.

Agreed.

I do not doubt the existence of a historical figure. However, the various Jesus figures we are presented with in the four canonical gospels are constructed. We do get fleeting glimpses of a real Galilean Jewish ascetic in Mark and again in Matthew but these heavily overlaid with Christian gloss.

The Jesus character was taken form the hero story that had existed for many previous religions. It was adapted to create Jesus who was literally an idol

Joseph Campbell originally outlined the Hero's Journey (or "monomyth") in his 1949 book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, detailing a 17-stage process divided into three main phases: Departure, Initiation, and Return. [1]
The popular 12-step adaptation was later synthesized by Hollywood writer Christopher Vogler to make the framework more actionable for storytelling and character arcs. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Phase 1: Departure
The hero begins in their familiar everyday environment but receives a call that pulls them into the unknown. [1]

• 1. The Ordinary World: The hero's normal life is established, setting a baseline before the adventure begins.
  • 2. The Call to Adventure: The hero is faced with a challenge, quest, or problem that must be undertaken.
  • 3. Refusal of the Call: The hero initially hesitates or tries to turn away due to fear, obligation, or perceived inadequacy.
  • 4. Meeting the Mentor: The hero meets a guiding figure who provides advice, training, or magical items to help them on their path.
  • 5. Crossing the First Threshold: The hero fully commits to the journey by leaving their comfort zone and entering the unfamiliar "special" world. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]

Phase 2: Initiation
The hero navigates the challenges of the unknown world, facing enemies, allies, and their ultimate test. [1, 2]

• 6. Tests, Allies, and Enemies: The hero adjusts to the new world, learning the rules while making friends and encountering obstacles.
• 7. Approach to the Inmost Cave: The hero and their allies prepare for a major challenge in the heart of the unknown.
• 8. The Ordeal: The hero faces their greatest fear or most difficult physical challenge, experiencing a metaphorical or literal "death" and subsequent rebirth.
• 9. The Reward: Having survived the ordeal, the hero takes possession of the ultimate prize, treasure, or secret they sought. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Phase 3: Return
The hero must bring their newfound wisdom, power, or salvation back to the ordinary world. [1, 2]

• 10. The Road Back: The consequences of the reward catch up to the hero as they realize they must return home with their prize.
• 11. The Resurrection: The hero faces one final, ultimate test where everything is at stake, proving they have truly transformed.
• 12. Return with the Elixir: The hero returns to the ordinary world permanently changed, bringing the "elixir" (knowledge, peace, or a boon) that benefits their entire community. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]