Zone1 The beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[onefour1]

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

If the beast was, and is not, who was the beast that was in history and is not now but will ascend out of the bottomless pit? Did the beast already exist in history but doesn't exist now but will exist again before the second coming of our Lord?

 

[onefour1]

Here is an AI summary of the beast:

Revelation 17:8 describes the "beast" as having a complex existence: it was (had a past existence), is not (currently absent or dormant), and yet is (will reappear in the future). This beast, associated with a satanically empowered global power and the corrupt religious system known as "Babylon the Great," will rise from the bottomless pit (Abys) to fulfill its final role before being destroyed. Its reappearance will astonish those whose names are not written in the Book of Life—the unredeemed—because they will see a power that once existed but no longer does, now returning. The beast is also described in Revelation 17:11 as an eighth king who belongs to the seven previous empires and is destined for destruction, emphasizing its cyclical, deceptive nature and ultimate doom.
AI-generated answer. Please verify critical facts.

 

[Thinker101]

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

If the beast was, and is not, who was the beast that was in history and is not now but will ascend out of the bottomless pit? Did the beast already exist in history but doesn't exist now but will exist again before the second coming of our Lord?

Dang, from the title, I thought this was going to be a Kamala OP.

 

[ding]

If the beast was, and is not, who was the beast that was in history and is not now but will ascend out of the bottomless pit? Did the beast already exist in history but doesn't exist now but will exist again before the second coming of our Lord?

The phrase "the beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition" from Revelation 17:8 (KJV) describes a powerful, evil entity, often interpreted as the Antichrist or the Revived Roman Empire, representing a recurring force of evil that was present in the past (like Pagan Rome/Emperor Nero), disappeared, but will reappear in a new form during the end times, rising from demonic power (the abyss) only to face final destruction in the lake of fire (perdition).

Key Interpretations

• The Roman Empire: Many scholars see the beast as representing the Roman Empire, which "was" as a dominant pagan power, "is not" in John's immediate time as a unified pagan force, and "yet is" or will "ascend" as a revived, blasphemous system (like the Papacy or a future world empire).
• The Antichrist Figure: This beast is often linked to the Antichrist, a single individual who embodies Satan's power, having a past manifestation (perhaps Nero's spirit), a period of non-existence, and a future emergence from the abyss.
• Cyclical Nature of Evil: The phrase signifies that satanic power, embodied by oppressive empires and leaders, appears, disappears, and then returns, culminating in ultimate defeat.

"Was, and is not, and yet is"

• "Was": The beast's past manifestation, often linked to the persecuting Roman Empire.
• "Is not": Its absence or transformation at the time the prophecy was given.
• "Yet is" / "Shall ascend": Its future revival, emerging from the demonic depths (bottomless pit) to exert power before its final judgment (perdition).

In essence, it's a prophecy about a recurring manifestation of evil power, often tied to tyrannical empires and culminating in the Antichrist, who will rise from the abyss for a brief but destructive reign before being destroyed.

 

[onefour1]

Here is an explanation that I find quite interesting:

What Comes After the Holy Roman Empire?
from the booklet the Holy Roman Empire in Prophesy

 

[luiza]

Dang, from the title, I thought this was going to be a Kamala OP.

Instead we get the ravings of a loner hermit included in the Unholy Bible as a Sheeple Control measure .

Unfortunately Sheeplets like nothing better than listening to nonsense stories which enslave them to their unreal masters .

 

[Quantrill]

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

If the beast was, and is not, who was the beast that was in history and is not now but will ascend out of the bottomless pit? Did the beast already exist in history but doesn't exist now but will exist again before the second coming of our Lord?

Yes, the beast must have existed on earth in previous history. There is disagreement on whether the beast here is a political system, or a person. Either way, it or he would have existed previously on earth.

If it is a person, that person would be thoroughly identified with that evil political system. He would represent it.

Four things are said of the beast in (Rev. 17:8). 1.) the beast was, 2.) the beast is not, 3.) the beast shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, 4.) the beast will go into perdition

In (Rev. 17:7) we are told this beast has seven heads and ten horns. In (Rev. 17:9) we are told the seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. Mountain many times in the Bible speaks to government or rulership. Concerning the Millennial Kingdom to come, (Isaiah 25:6) "And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things..." (Isaiah 2:3) "And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD..."

So, at this point I would say the beast represents a demonic political system as it ascends from the 'bottomless pit' which is a place Satan's angels. (Rev. 9:1) "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven into the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit." (Rev. 9:11) "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit..."

But then in (Rev. 17:10) we are introduced to 7 kings which no doubt will be over the 7 mountains of political authority. And similar things said of the political system is said of one of the kings. "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh he must continue a short space. So we are now describing a person.

And now in (Rev. 17:11) this king, this person, is identified as the beast. "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

So, at this point I lean toward the beast being a demonically indwelt person, most likely by Satan himself, who becomes the head of the demonic political system to come over the earth.

It is of interest to me that only two persons are spoken of being identified with perdition. The man of sin in (2 Thess. 2:3). "...and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." And Judas Iscariot. (John 17:12) "...none of them is lost, but the son of perdition...."

Quantrill

 

[hadit]

Instead we get the ravings of a loner hermit included in the Unholy Bible as a Sheeple Control measure .

Unfortunately Sheeplets like nothing better than listening to nonsense stories which enslave them to their unreal masters .

If you have nothing constructive to add, why bother adding it?

 

[onefour1]

Yes, the beast must have existed on earth in previous history. There is disagreement on whether the beast here is a political system, or a person. Either way, it or he would have existed previously on earth.

If it is a person, that person would be thoroughly identified with that evil political system. He would represent it.

Four things are said of the beast in (Rev. 17:8). 1.) the beast was, 2.) the beast is not, 3.) the beast shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, 4.) the beast will go into perdition

In (Rev. 17:7) we are told this beast has seven heads and ten horns. In (Rev. 17:9) we are told the seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. Mountain many times in the Bible speaks to government or rulership. Concerning the Millennial Kingdom to come, (Isaiah 25:6) "And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things..." (Isaiah 2:3) "And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD..."

So, at this point I would say the beast represents a demonic political system as it ascends from the 'bottomless pit' which is a place Satan's angels. (Rev. 9:1) "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven into the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit." (Rev. 9:11) "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit..."

But then in (Rev. 17:10) we are introduced to 7 kings which no doubt will be over the 7 mountains of political authority. And similar things said of the political system is said of one of the kings. "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh he must continue a short space. So we are now describing a person.

And now in (Rev. 17:11) this king, this person, is identified as the beast. "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

So, at this point I lean toward the beast being a demonically indwelt person, most likely by Satan himself, who becomes the head of the demonic political system to come over the earth.

It is of interest to me that only two persons are spoken of being identified with perdition. The man of sin in (2 Thess. 2:3). "...and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." And Judas Iscariot. (John 17:12) "...none of them is lost, but the son of perdition...."

Quantrill

So in history, do you have an opinion on who this beast actually was?

 

[Quantrill]

So in history, do you have an opinion on who this beast actually was?

Well, as I indicated in my previous post Judas Iscariot, alone, is designated 'the son of perdition'. (John 17:12). As the anti-christ is. (2 Thess. 2:3) Then you have Christs statement in (John 7:70). "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? Here the definite article is used to make it read 'and one of you is the devil'.

Then we are told in (John 13:26-27) at the Last Supper, "Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot....And after the sop Satan entered into him..."

So, as to the 'who', this beast was in Jesus day on the earth, I would say Judas Iscariot.

Quantrill

 

[DennisPTate]

Here is an explanation that I find quite interesting:

What Comes After the Holy Roman Empire?
from the booklet the Holy Roman Empire in Prophesy

That is an interesting booklet. I have read quite a bit from The Philadelphia Church of God back during the 1990's. In a way the remilitarization of Europe at this time sets the stage for the fulfillment of a final revival of the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[Robert W]

The phrase "the beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition" from Revelation 17:8 (KJV) describes a powerful, evil entity, often interpreted as the Antichrist or the Revived Roman Empire, representing a recurring force of evil that was present in the past (like Pagan Rome/Emperor Nero), disappeared, but will reappear in a new form during the end times, rising from demonic power (the abyss) only to face final destruction in the lake of fire (perdition).

Key Interpretations

• The Roman Empire: Many scholars see the beast as representing the Roman Empire, which "was" as a dominant pagan power, "is not" in John's immediate time as a unified pagan force, and "yet is" or will "ascend" as a revived, blasphemous system (like the Papacy or a future world empire).
• The Antichrist Figure: This beast is often linked to the Antichrist, a single individual who embodies Satan's power, having a past manifestation (perhaps Nero's spirit), a period of non-existence, and a future emergence from the abyss.
• Cyclical Nature of Evil: The phrase signifies that satanic power, embodied by oppressive empires and leaders, appears, disappears, and then returns, culminating in ultimate defeat.

"Was, and is not, and yet is"

• "Was": The beast's past manifestation, often linked to the persecuting Roman Empire.
• "Is not": Its absence or transformation at the time the prophecy was given.
• "Yet is" / "Shall ascend": Its future revival, emerging from the demonic depths (bottomless pit) to exert power before its final judgment (perdition).

In essence, it's a prophecy about a recurring manifestation of evil power, often tied to tyrannical empires and culminating in the Antichrist, who will rise from the abyss for a brief but destructive reign before being destroyed.

Here is a problem with the Bible. It has a beginning crafted by the Jews. Used today by Christians yet lasting about 60 years past the death of Jesus. For instance, in the Bible, there is no mention of Constantine who as I know him fathered the Catholics.

 

[ding]

Constantine who as I know him fathered the Catholics.

I can't even begin to tell you how inaccurate that is.

• Apostolic Fathers (Directly linked to Apostles):
  • Clement of Rome (d. 97): Fourth Bishop of Rome, taught by Peter.
  • Ignatius of Antioch (d. 110): Bishop, wrote letters on martyrdom, first to call the Church "Catholic".
  • Polycarp of Smyrna (d. 155): Bishop, disciple of John the Apostle, defended faith against heresy.
• Ante-Nicene Fathers (Before 325 AD):
  • Justin Martyr (d. 165): First major Christian apologist (defender).
  • Irenaeus of Lyons (d. 202): Disciple of Polycarp, fought Gnosticism.
  • Tertullian (d. 240): Earliest Latin writer, defended faith in Latin.
  • Cyprian of Carthage (d. 258): Bishop, emphasized Church unity.

The Catholic Church values tradition highly because it sees it as the living transmission of Christ's teachings and the Apostles' oral words, ensuring doctrinal continuity, preserving the Gospel's integrity, and uniting believers across history, complementing Scripture as two sources of divine revelation under the Holy Spirit's guidance, preventing the faith from becoming worldly or subject to shifting human trends. Tradition provides the authentic interpretation of Scripture, the foundation for sacraments, and a sense of belonging to the unbroken chain from Christ to the present day.

Key Reasons for Valuing Tradition:

• Continuity with the Apostles: Tradition carries the unwritten teachings Jesus gave the Apostles, which weren't all recorded in the Bible but were passed down orally and through the Church's life.
• Harmony with Scripture: Sacred Scripture (Bible) and Sacred Tradition are seen as two intertwined sources flowing from the same divine source, working together to reveal God's word, with Tradition providing the authentic interpretation of Scripture.
• Preservation of Truth: It safeguards the core Gospel message from being altered by cultural changes or human opinions, acting as a lifeline to Christ's original revelation.
• Formation of Identity: Tradition creates a deep sense of belonging, uniting Catholics with generations of believers, saints, and Church Fathers, fostering brotherhood across time.
• Guidance for the Church: The Holy Spirit guides the Church (the Magisterium) through Tradition to understand and apply the faith to new situations, ensuring the Church remains faithful and propels it forward.
• Foundation for Practice: It underpins core practices, including the Sacraments, liturgy (like the Mass), and moral teachings, ensuring they are rooted in apostolic origins.

In essence, Tradition isn't just history; it's the living, unfolding expression of the faith that makes Christ present and active in the Church today and for all time

 

[Robert W]

I can't even begin to tell you how inaccurate that is.

You could have asked me to clarify.

Since you rambled on, I must now clarify why Constantine fathered the Catholics.
There have been perhaps thousands of religions in the history of man.
Rome was not friendly at all to Christians until around 320 AD it was authorized by Constantine who awarded the current church dedicated land in Rome to use as the Church headquarters. (The Vatican)
Christians prior to this operated as a secret group. Sort of like tiny enclaves of Baptists in the South of the USA.

 

[ding]

You could have asked me to clarify.

Since you rambled on, I must now clarify why Constantine fathered the Catholics.
There have been perhaps thousands of religions in the history of man.
Rome was not friendly at all to Christians until around 320 AD it was authorized by Constantine who awarded the current church dedicated land in Rome to use as the Church headquarters. (The Vatican)
Christians prior to this operated as a secret group. Sort of like tiny enclaves of Baptists in the South of the USA.

Rambled on? Or presented the factual truth about the early Church fathers and the importance of tradition which works hand in hand with scripture?

 

[Robert W]

Rambled on? Or presented the factual truth about the early Church fathers and the importance of tradition which works hand in hand with scripture?

Get the history in the set produced by Gibbons about Rome.

 

[ding]

Get the history in the set produced by Gibbons about Rome.

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Why? Will it make my relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit better?