The Balfour Declaration

RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you need to re-read your statement...

Again, NONSENSE!

The Balfour Declaration scratched the Palestinian's national and political rights. Britain ran with those violations of the Palestine's rights from day one.
(COMMENT)

What authority do you refer to - that outlined "Palestinian's national and political rights" prior to November 1917?

Most Respectfully,
R
Stupid post. Palestine (like Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Transjordan,) was not a state in 1917.
(COMMENT)

→ You said: The Balfour Declaration scratched the Palestinian's national and political rights.
※ I asked: "What authority do you refer to - that outlined "Palestinian's national and political rights" prior to November 1917?"
Of course, I know that Palestine was not a state in 1917, and thus had no "Palestinian's national and political rights." I just asked the question because your statement makes it seem that the Balfour Declaration of scratched (canceled or struck-out) some pre-existing Palestinian "national and political rights."

Most Respectfully,
R
it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,​

Specified civil and religious rights. no mention of national or political rights. As soon as Britain took over those rights were not there and are still not there. And you spend your life denying those rights.
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you need to re-read your statement...

Again, NONSENSE!

The Balfour Declaration scratched the Palestinian's national and political rights. Britain ran with those violations of the Palestine's rights from day one.
(COMMENT)

What authority do you refer to - that outlined "Palestinian's national and political rights" prior to November 1917?

Most Respectfully,
R
Stupid post. Palestine (like Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Transjordan,) was not a state in 1917.
(COMMENT)

→ You said: The Balfour Declaration scratched the Palestinian's national and political rights.
※ I asked: "What authority do you refer to - that outlined "Palestinian's national and political rights" prior to November 1917?"
Of course, I know that Palestine was not a state in 1917, and thus had no "Palestinian's national and political rights." I just asked the question because your statement makes it seem that the Balfour Declaration of scratched (canceled or struck-out) some pre-existing Palestinian "national and political rights."

Most Respectfully,
R
it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,​

Specified civil and religious rights. no mention of national or political rights. As soon as Britain took over those rights were not there and are still not there. And you spend your life denying those rights.

That's none sense,
Britain facilitated the establishment of those rights for the Arab nation on 78% of the land, infringing upon their obligations by banning all Jews from that state. Establishing another such state on the rest 22% of the land would further constitute a severe infringement on the right of the Jewish nation as signed into international law both by Britain, France and the US.

Arabs gained most of Jewish land as a result of Balfour Declaration.
 
Last edited:
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I did not specify "national or political rights" → you did...

I think you need to re-read your statement...

Again, NONSENSE!

The Balfour Declaration scratched the Palestinian's national and political rights. Britain ran with those violations of the Palestine's rights from day one.

it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,​

Specified civil and religious rights. no mention of national or political rights. As soon as Britain took over those rights were not there and are still not there. And you spend your life denying those rights.
(QUESTION)

In 1917, what were the civil rights? What was denied?

v/r
R
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I did not specify "national or political rights" → you did...

I think you need to re-read your statement...

Again, NONSENSE!

The Balfour Declaration scratched the Palestinian's national and political rights. Britain ran with those violations of the Palestine's rights from day one.

it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,​

Specified civil and religious rights. no mention of national or political rights. As soon as Britain took over those rights were not there and are still not there. And you spend your life denying those rights.
(QUESTION)

In 1917, what were the civil rights? What was denied?

v/r
R
Clearly you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I did not specify "national or political rights" → you did...

I think you need to re-read your statement...

Again, NONSENSE!

The Balfour Declaration scratched the Palestinian's national and political rights. Britain ran with those violations of the Palestine's rights from day one.

it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,​

Specified civil and religious rights. no mention of national or political rights. As soon as Britain took over those rights were not there and are still not there. And you spend your life denying those rights.
(QUESTION)

In 1917, what were the civil rights? What was denied?

v/r
R
Clearly you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?

Another day of this.

:eusa_whistle: :icon_sjung:
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

Right to Self-Determination.webp

The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Last edited:
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R

There's no other objective but to oppose any form of Jewish sovereignty.
Even the later calls by Arab leaders for Palestinian independence were echoes of initial attempts to cede the lands to Syria under the governance of Mecca, as envisioned in the beginning by the Hashemite leaders.

In other words the obligation to "not prejudice the rights of the non-Jewish populations" is also preconditioned by the obligation that Jewish rights are not damaged, therefore because of Husseini war on Jewish communities around the middle east (and Europe) - their lands were eventually transferred as compensation for lost property and rights in the Arab states.
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.


What “country of Pal’istan” is your friend Ahmed referring to?

When you refer to “universal rights”, where is islamist universal right to gee-had and the Islamist “right” to drive the Jews into the sea spelled out?
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.


What “country of Pal’istan” is your friend Ahmed referring to?

When you refer to “universal rights”, where is islamist universal right to gee-had and the Islamist “right” to drive the Jews into the sea spelled out?
:laugh::laugh::laugh: Irrelevant questions.
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.


What “country of Pal’istan” is your friend Ahmed referring to?

When you refer to “universal rights”, where is islamist universal right to gee-had and the Islamist “right” to drive the Jews into the sea spelled out?
:laugh::laugh::laugh: Irrelevant questions.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Can’t find a YouTube video, huh?

Indeed!
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.

That late Arab declaration is exactly the smokescreen.
Can't declare independence post factum without any sovereignty.

It's like a kid who plays air guitar in front of the mirror.
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.

That late Arab declaration is exactly the smokescreen.
Can't declare independence post factum without any sovereignty.

It's like a kid who plays air guitar in front of the mirror.
:confused-84::confused-84::confused-84:
 
The Legal Foundation and Borders of Israel under International Law (Summary - part 1)
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You are NOT on solid ground.

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.
(COMMENT)

The puppet regime established and funded by the Egyptian Government (and by the way, the Egyptian Government dissolved the All Palestine Government) was unable to take any successful act that established "sovereign territory." They could not claim any actual territory to which they had control and they were the undisputed government. On the other hand, the Egyptians, the Jordanians and the Israelis all had territories, and all have areas they controlled. Jordan even, for a while, annexed the West Bank and Jerusalem; all of which they abandon to Israeli control in 1988.

It has only been since 2005 that the Arab Palestinians assumed control of the Gaza Strip. They claim to be a government with sovereign control.

Nothing about the September 1948 Declaration by the All Palestine Government show any overt act to establish control of any aspect or portion of the territory. It's just a cablegram with nothing substantial behind it.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.

Your argument has two insurmountable flaws:

Every one of those rights you claim for the Palestinians is ALSO and EQUALLY valid for the Jewish people.

"Territorial integrity" has NEVER been an obstacle for partition or self-determination for ANY people. And while international law has not explicitly stated this yet, territorial integrity of an existing State is not generally considered an effective reason in law to prevent the self-determination of a people. (Witness USSR, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Korea, Sudan, India/Pakistan, Indonesia/East Timor, Ethiopia/Eritrea and any of dozens of other examples. Palestine included.)
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You are NOT on solid ground.

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.
(COMMENT)

The puppet regime established and funded by the Egyptian Government (and by the way, the Egyptian Government dissolved the All Palestine Government) was unable to take any successful act that established "sovereign territory." They could not claim any actual territory to which they had control and they were the undisputed government. On the other hand, the Egyptians, the Jordanians and the Israelis all had territories, and all have areas they controlled. Jordan even, for a while, annexed the West Bank and Jerusalem; all of which they abandon to Israeli control in 1988.

It has only been since 2005 that the Arab Palestinians assumed control of the Gaza Strip. They claim to be a government with sovereign control.

Nothing about the September 1948 Declaration by the All Palestine Government show any overt act to establish control of any aspect or portion of the territory. It's just a cablegram with nothing substantial behind it.

Most Respectfully,
R
The puppet regime established and funded by the Egyptian Government (and by the way, the Egyptian Government dissolved the All Palestine Government) was unable to take any successful act that established "sovereign territory." They could not claim any actual territory to which they had control and they were the undisputed government.
OK, but Palestine did not have territorial control because it was occupied by three military forces and it was a civilian population. However, a state does not cease to exist because it is under military occupation. Remember, occupations do not acquire sovereignty.
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You are NOT on solid ground.

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.
(COMMENT)

The puppet regime established and funded by the Egyptian Government (and by the way, the Egyptian Government dissolved the All Palestine Government) was unable to take any successful act that established "sovereign territory." They could not claim any actual territory to which they had control and they were the undisputed government. On the other hand, the Egyptians, the Jordanians and the Israelis all had territories, and all have areas they controlled. Jordan even, for a while, annexed the West Bank and Jerusalem; all of which they abandon to Israeli control in 1988.

It has only been since 2005 that the Arab Palestinians assumed control of the Gaza Strip. They claim to be a government with sovereign control.

Nothing about the September 1948 Declaration by the All Palestine Government show any overt act to establish control of any aspect or portion of the territory. It's just a cablegram with nothing substantial behind it.

Most Respectfully,
R
The puppet regime established and funded by the Egyptian Government (and by the way, the Egyptian Government dissolved the All Palestine Government) was unable to take any successful act that established "sovereign territory." They could not claim any actual territory to which they had control and they were the undisputed government.
OK, but Palestine did not have territorial control because it was occupied by three military forces and it was a civilian population. However, a state does not cease to exist because it is under military occupation. Remember, occupations do not acquire sovereignty.

There's no sovereignty without occupation, this is the part You keep missing. And one of the reasons why the Arab declarations were invalid.
 
RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You are NOT on solid ground.

Well, this is not at all what we were talking about. The facts pertaining to the political considerations given the inhabitance under the former Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) of the Allied Powers (particularly France and the British Government), has nothing to do with the actual rights (whether we suggest they be national/political or civil/religious) afford the inhabitance. It may sound odd, but that was generally how things were done a century ago. A century ago, such rights (national/political or civil/religious), if they were considered at all, were thought of completely different from how they are viewed today.

Clearly, you have no knowledge of Palestine beyond Israeli propaganda.The first thing Britain did was to shove the Palestinians aside like they have been doing to natives for hundreds of years. Mandate was a mere euphemism for military occupation. Laws and policies were imposed on Palestine at the point of a gun. Any attempt to exercise their right to self-determination was violently put down by the British. Their leaders were arrested, exiled, or even killed.

Britain destroyed a functioning society. What rights were not violated?
(COMMENT)

I was going to say (as the saying goes) - I've never been to Timbuktu, but I know what a desert is. (But actually I have been to Timbuktu; my grandmother (Minorcan) took me there when I was a boy.)

Contrary to the Islamic popular belief, the Israelis are NOT the sole source for history. In fact, while there are undoubtedly a few Jewish Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'm sure that a century ago, they did not control the knowledge base for most of the English Speaking world.

Self-determination, is a peremptory norm derived from modern customary international law (jus cogens...) from a time when it was first promoted as a political theory in the nineteenth century. However, it has no real definition.

View attachment 229317
The United States Institute of Peace is an independent,
nonpartisan federal institution
created by Congress (1984)


Graham E Fuller said:
• First, Fuller maintained that existing borders between internationally recognized nation-states are “artificial, arbitrary, and accidental.” Furthermore, they are not permanent.
• Second, although some states, mostly in the West, are a reflection of the congruence of ethnic and territorial boundaries, most are not so constituted. These other states are typically “mini-empires” or even greater empires of ethnically distinct peoples who find themselves arbitrarily forced to live within the same borders.
• Third, the current concern over self-determination is not merely a “post-Soviet blip”; that is, the dilemma is not just a regional, short-term phase following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Many peoples around the globe are going through their own process of self-discovery. More than ever before, these peoples seek liberation to “get back to their history.”
Professor Ralph Steinhardt said:
• Self-determination has little legal meaning but is nevertheless a tremendously powerful political principle.
• International law is not “univocal” on the subject. Self-determination has never been defined; hence, its mere mention conjures up several different meanings at once.
• The third basic proposition about the legal context of self-determination is that it is not a “suicide pact” in that it does not oblige any state to subjugate its own self-interest. Law is basically an expression of self-interest and has evolved accordingly over time.
• The fourth proposition is that law is constantly changing. After several distinct eras, Steinhardt maintained, the self-determination norm is at a legislative turning point. There are several new meanings or “clusters of principles” that should be included in the right to self-determination, just as there are new ways in which the right should be interpreted.
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.

Most Respectfully,
R
Each state, or nation has three competing self-interests: territorial integrity, the rights to self-determination, and secession. But again, Self-Determination is NOT a "suicide pact." Israel does NOT have to give up a limb or dissolve just to appease Arab Palestinian political and military failures to achieve their confused nationalist objectives.
OK, let's take this apart.

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE


CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT



28 September 1948​


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Now compare this to the universal rights that the UN says the Palestinians have.
  • The right to self determination without external interference.
  • The right to independence and sovereignty.
  • The right to territorial integrity.
Virtually a perfect match going back before 1948. You keep trying to smokescreen the issues but the Palestinians are on solid ground.
(COMMENT)

The puppet regime established and funded by the Egyptian Government (and by the way, the Egyptian Government dissolved the All Palestine Government) was unable to take any successful act that established "sovereign territory." They could not claim any actual territory to which they had control and they were the undisputed government. On the other hand, the Egyptians, the Jordanians and the Israelis all had territories, and all have areas they controlled. Jordan even, for a while, annexed the West Bank and Jerusalem; all of which they abandon to Israeli control in 1988.

It has only been since 2005 that the Arab Palestinians assumed control of the Gaza Strip. They claim to be a government with sovereign control.

Nothing about the September 1948 Declaration by the All Palestine Government show any overt act to establish control of any aspect or portion of the territory. It's just a cablegram with nothing substantial behind it.

Most Respectfully,
R
The puppet regime established and funded by the Egyptian Government (and by the way, the Egyptian Government dissolved the All Palestine Government) was unable to take any successful act that established "sovereign territory." They could not claim any actual territory to which they had control and they were the undisputed government.
OK, but Palestine did not have territorial control because it was occupied by three military forces and it was a civilian population. However, a state does not cease to exist because it is under military occupation. Remember, occupations do not acquire sovereignty.

There's no sovereignty without occupation, this is the part You keep missing. And one of the reasons why the Arab declarations were invalid.
Not true. India was India before the British. It was India during the British occupation. It was India after the British left. An occupation is merely a period in history. Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Nobody has the authority to dismantle or dissolve a state.
 
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