Teaching and Learning the Basics

[Adam's Apple]

Back to School Blues
By Victor Davis Hanson
August 23, 2007

...most critics agree that the root causes for our undereducated youth are not all the schools' fault. Our present ambition to make every American youth college material -- in a way our forefathers would have thought ludicrous -- ensures that we will both fail in that utopian goal and lack enough literate Americans with critical vocational skills.

The disintegration of the American nuclear family is also at fault. Too many students don't have two parents reminding them of the value of both abstract and practical learning.

What then can our elementary and secondary schools do, when many of their students' problems begin at home or arise from our warped popular culture?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/08/back_to_school_blues.html

 

[Psychoblues]

Don't hold your breath waiting for anything from this bunch of illiterates, AA.

 

[trobinett]

Don't hold your breath waiting for anything from this bunch of illiterates, AA.

I concur AA, just witness the FIRST response to your post.

 

[jasendorf]

How most Republicans view education:

 

[RetiredGySgt]

How most Republicans view education:

You need to learn some reality, you will find that the political party that doesn't want to "blame" children and families for any failure at all is NOT the Republican Party. The party that wants to turn local education into Federal education, that supported getting rid of History for "Social Studies" that wants kids "self Esteem" to be more important than learning is NOT the Republican party.

 

[jasendorf]

You need to learn some reality, you will find that the political party that doesn't want to "blame" children and families for any failure at all is NOT the Republican Party. The party that wants to turn local education into Federal education, that supported getting rid of History for "Social Studies" that wants kids "self Esteem" to be more important than learning is NOT the Republican party.

I'm the husband, son and son-in-law of teachers... I don't think I need any lessons from you on what's going on in schools.

And, don't be laughable... the ESEA (NCLB) is federal law which strips local school districts of their autonomy using the States as its henchmen. Republicans have one goal for public education in America: for-profit privatization and cheap labor. And, the best way to do that is to dupe people into believing that "Social Studies" is somehow a bad word (as if the civics being taught in the **gasp** Social Studies classes is somehow "evil") and that teaching a kid not to hate themselves is somehow counterproductive to learning.

NCLB is designed to punish teachers for being teachers and persuade conservative voters into believing that if their kids aren't excelling in school... it's those damned liberal teachers and their unions fault.

It's not that the Republican Party doesn't want kids to learn... it's simply that they want cheap labor and privatization more. And the best way to do that is to denigrate teachers and ignore parental responsibility.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I'm the husband, son and son-in-law of teachers... I don't think I need any lessons from you on what's going on in schools.

And, don't be laughable... the ESEA (NCLB) is federal law which strips local school districts of their autonomy using the States as its henchmen. Republicans have one goal for public education in America: for-profit privatization and cheap labor. And, the best way to do that is to dupe people into believing that "Social Studies" is somehow a bad word (as if the civics being taught in the **gasp** Social Studies classes is somehow "evil") and that teaching a kid not to hate themselves is somehow counterproductive to learning.

NCLB is designed to punish teachers for being teachers and persuade conservative voters into believing that if their kids aren't excelling in school... it's those damned liberal teachers and their unions fault.

It's not that the Republican Party doesn't want kids to learn... it's simply that they want cheap labor and privatization more. And the best way to do that is to denigrate teachers and ignore parental responsibility.

Your ignorant on this issue. Of course being liberal I guess you couldn't be expected to admit your political leanings are what caused the destruction of the American Family and the decline in our Public schools.

I have a friend in the Post Office. Let me make a guess, your "teacher" associates are in a Union? My friend knows all about how the Postal union is anti republican. It wouldn't surprise me one bit that teacher Unions are just as vehemently opposed to them as well. Remind me again who wants tenure to include the promise that a teacher can not be fired even for gross incompetence? Who wants to move teachers from class rooms into ever bigger and bigger Administration functions? Who supports the "promote them no matter what" concept because, failing them would be hard on their self esteem? Remind me again about how a moment of silence in school is BAD and allowing Christian organizations access to school facilities after hours is some how a violation of "church and State" BUT teaching the children about the Islamic religion, providing time and facilities DURING school hours for Muslim prayer and giving them access after hours to facilities is just "diversity" in practice and "tolerance".

 

[jasendorf]

Your ignorant on this issue. Of course being liberal I guess you couldn't be expected to admit your political leanings are what caused the destruction of the American Family and the decline in our Public schools.

Never ceases to amaze me when a grown man, especially one who is lamenting how bad ***today's liberal education system*** is, cannot discern between "your" and "you're". Maybe they should have taught English at the great **school of the olden days** that you went to?

So now I'm the root of the "destruction of the American Family?" Who'd have thunk lil' ole me could destroy the American Family! Me and my liberal ways have killed education!

I have a friend in the Post Office. Let me make a guess, your "teacher" associates are in a Union? My friend knows all about how the Postal union is anti republican. It wouldn't surprise me one bit that teacher Unions are just as vehemently opposed to them as well. Remind me again who wants tenure to include the promise that a teacher can not be fired even for gross incompetence?

Why would a school system give tenure to a teacher who is incompetent in the first place? It takes years to get tenure in school systems that have tenure (most don't)... are you saying that administrators are giving tenure to incompetent teachers or that they become incompetent only when their salary reaches a point that they could hire someone cheaper? Unfortunately for your argument... most teachers work as part of a contract. Take my wife's public school for example: First year, one year contract. Second year, one year contract. Third and fourth year, two-year contract. Fifth and sixth year, two-year contract. Seventh through ninth year, three-year contract. And so on. This is a standard union agreement between teachers and the school system. At the end of the contract, the school can choose to renew the contract with the teacher or not. The school district has plenty of opportunities to determine which teachers are capable and which are not.

What you want is the school to have the ability to balance its budgets on teachers' backs and work completely without a contract. Then, when people like you come along and say, "slash the school budget! you can't throw money at it! insert your slogan here!" The district can just toss out the most expensive employees and satisfy your short-term whim. You're right when I say I support teachers not having to take all the financial responsibility for school budgets. (Ask pilots (many of them military veterans) how they're been propping up airlines with pay cuts and having their union bend over for the airlines while the corporate executives take massive pay hikes... worked really well for them didn't it?)

Who wants to move teachers from class rooms into ever bigger and bigger Administration functions?

This one's easy. Republicans. The amount of time teaching has shrunk immensely during the past ten years under the rule of Republicans here in the State of Ohio. Now it's hours and hours of paperwork and IEPs.

Who supports the "promote them no matter what" concept because, failing them would be hard on their self esteem?

Every parent you've ever met. As long as it's THEIR kid you're talking about. In the State of Ohio, teachers can't even hold a kid back a grade... they can only "suggest" holding the student back. Only the parent can actually keep a student back a grade. Guess what they usually choose... you can thank the Republican legislature in Ohio for that little gem.

Remind me again about how a moment of silence in school is BAD and allowing Christian organizations access to school facilities after hours is some how a violation of "church and State" BUT teaching the children about the Islamic religion, providing time and facilities DURING school hours for Muslim prayer and giving them access after hours to facilities is just "diversity" in practice and "tolerance".

Provide a concrete case for me to comment on. You want to attribute this particular frame of thought to me... but I don't hold the belief you just presented above... here's what I believe: 1) moment of silence: fine by me; 2) religious organizations of any kind having access to school facilities after school: fine by me; 3) teaching children about all religions in a theology course, fine by me; 4) indoctrinating children into any brand of religion, not fine by me; 5) giving special treatment for prayer by a certain group during school hours: not fine by me. If you'd like to attack my actual beliefs instead of the ones you want to magically ascribe to me... go right ahead... they're there for you to see. You can put down the strawman now.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Bullshit, we have examples from New York and california and else where that Muslims are treated special. In New York they were given time and special accomadations DURING school time for Ramadan. When the Christians finally challanged it and threatened court action, rather then provide equal time they canceled the muslim special treatment. That went on for at least 3 years.

In California we have several examples of teachers ORDERING their children to dress like, act like and think like muslims, all as a "diversity" training exersize. Ask those teachers about doing that for Christian religions and watch the fire works.

 

[jillian]

Bullshit, we have examples from New York and california and else where that Muslims are treated special. In New York they were given time and special accomadations DURING school time for Ramadan. When the Christians finally challanged it and threatened court action, rather then provide equal time they canceled the muslim special treatment. That went on for at least 3 years.

In California we have several examples of teachers ORDERING their children to dress like, act like and think like muslims, all as a "diversity" training exersize. Ask those teachers about doing that for Christian religions and watch the fire works.

In NY, Jews are also given special privileges for Rosh Hashonna and Yom Kippur. Christians are given special privileges on Christmas and Easter (I'm not sure about Good Friday). That doesn't bother me. Nor does teaching a class that teaches tolerance for a people who, particularly, after 9/11, may have been in some danger of being mistreated by others.

Just saying.

 

[jasendorf]

Bullshit, we have examples from New York and california and else where that Muslims are treated special. In New York they were given time and special accomadations DURING school time for Ramadan. When the Christians finally challanged it and threatened court action, rather then provide equal time they canceled the muslim special treatment. That went on for at least 3 years.

In California we have several examples of teachers ORDERING their children to dress like, act like and think like muslims, all as a "diversity" training exersize. Ask those teachers about doing that for Christian religions and watch the fire works.

Once again... I can't argue against nebulous, cause-I-said-it-happened cases. You want to provide specific cases... I'll be more than happy to comment on them. But, my guess is that the system righted itself over time, the process worked as it is designed, and now you're hiding behind "well, I heard about this thing kinda happening somewhere, sometime!"

If you have maybe a link or something to these "several examples" I can comment on those. I can only base whether I agree or disagree about something or some action on facts, of which you've provided... well, zero. In fact, I have less than facts, I have your above quote which amounts to nothing more than "some school, some where, doing some ***EVIL TOLERANCE THING!!!***" Maye you're able to make ethical decisions about such things with so little information; personally, I need more.

 

[Annie]

Never ceases to amaze me when a grown man, especially one who is lamenting how bad ***today's liberal education system*** is, cannot discern between "your" and "you're". Maybe they should have taught English at the great **school of the olden days** that you went to?

So now I'm the root of the "destruction of the American Family?" Who'd have thunk lil' ole me could destroy the American Family! Me and my liberal ways have killed education!



Why would a school system give tenure to a teacher who is incompetent in the first place? It takes years to get tenure in school systems that have tenure (most don't)... are you saying that administrators are giving tenure to incompetent teachers or that they become incompetent only when their salary reaches a point that they could hire someone cheaper? Unfortunately for your argument... most teachers work as part of a contract. Take my wife's public school for example: First year, one year contract. Second year, one year contract. Third and fourth year, two-year contract. Fifth and sixth year, two-year contract. Seventh through ninth year, three-year contract. And so on. This is a standard union agreement between teachers and the school system. At the end of the contract, the school can choose to renew the contract with the teacher or not. The school district has plenty of opportunities to determine which teachers are capable and which are not.

What you want is the school to have the ability to balance its budgets on teachers' backs and work completely without a contract. Then, when people like you come along and say, "slash the school budget! you can't throw money at it! insert your slogan here!" The district can just toss out the most expensive employees and satisfy your short-term whim. You're right when I say I support teachers not having to take all the financial responsibility for school budgets. (Ask pilots (many of them military veterans) how they're been propping up airlines with pay cuts and having their union bend over for the airlines while the corporate executives take massive pay hikes... worked really well for them didn't it?)



This one's easy. Republicans. The amount of time teaching has shrunk immensely during the past ten years under the rule of Republicans here in the State of Ohio. Now it's hours and hours of paperwork and IEPs.



Every parent you've ever met. As long as it's THEIR kid you're talking about. In the State of Ohio, teachers can't even hold a kid back a grade... they can only "suggest" holding the student back. Only the parent can actually keep a student back a grade. Guess what they usually choose... you can thank the Republican legislature in Ohio for that little gem.



Provide a concrete case for me to comment on. You want to attribute this particular frame of thought to me... but I don't hold the belief you just presented above... here's what I believe: 1) moment of silence: fine by me; 2) religious organizations of any kind having access to school facilities after school: fine by me; 3) teaching children about all religions in a theology course, fine by me; 4) indoctrinating children into any brand of religion, not fine by me; 5) giving special treatment for prayer by a certain group during school hours: not fine by me. If you'd like to attack my actual beliefs instead of the ones you want to magically ascribe to me... go right ahead... they're there for you to see. You can put down the strawman now.

What you say about tenure in OH is most likely correct, but I'm unsure you can say 'most'. In Ill. if a school can 'riff' a teacher 3 times, with no multi-year contracts, then they either have to let them go or give them tenure. (Riff means telling the teacher when contracts go out, usually April, that they will not be 'given one' then, but usually will be offered one in June.)

 

[Diuretic]

As another school year is set to get under way, it's worth pondering where this epidemic of ignorance came from.

"Epidemic of ignorance"? Three instances?

To encourage our best minds to become teachers, we should also change the qualifications for becoming one. Students should be able to pursue careers in teaching either by getting a standard teaching credential or by substituting a master's degree in an academic subject. That way we will eventually end up with more instructors with real academic knowledge rather than prepped with theories about how to teach.

I'd expect that from someone who comes from an institution where being published is valued over the ability to teach. The best teachers have a good academic grounding in their own discipline(s) and have a very good understanding of human development and of the various learning theories (derived from psychological research) to help students learn.

 

[Annie]

"Epidemic of ignorance"? Three instances?



I'd expect that from someone who comes from an institution where being published is valued over the ability to teach. The best teachers have a good academic grounding in their own discipline(s) and have a very good understanding of human development and of the various learning theories (derived from psychological research) to help students learn.

Here if you hold a master's and can pass the 'basic knowledge' test, you're in. There are also credential exceptions for secondary teachers that have 'real life' experience, without MS/MA.

 

[Diuretic]

Here if you hold a master's and can pass the 'basic knowledge' test, you're in. There are also credential exceptions for secondary teachers that have 'real life' experience, without MS/MA.

That's interesting. One of my former colleagues was a science and PE teacher. At university she was required to study her two disciplines (and a heap of electives) and also study the human development (learning and teaching theories etc) subjects before she was granted her degree and her teaching qualification. At primary and secondary school here you can't teach unless you have those qualifications. A university will probably offer you a Lecturer B or C academic position if you have a Master's but in reality if you're not on the way to your PhD or have a PhD (and a postdoctoral work record for a research position) then you're out of the running unless you have particuarly valued skills.

 

[Cynic-American]

What then can our elementary and secondary schools do, when many of their students' problems begin at home or arise from our warped popular culture?

these are the problems facing youth in our culture:
1. parents that dont seem to care about their kids. They need to be involved.
2. teachers who dread their job because they can not hand out discipline because the parents would sue them.
3. teaching tolerance for everything, because heaven forbid we even offend child molesters.
4. kids are more concerned with rap and video games instead of learning. They figure life is hell anyway so why try to make it better. They see rappers making millions and aim for that thug lifestyle. Who is to blame? Parents.

 

[Shogun]

these are the problems facing youth in our culture:
1. parents that dont seem to care about their kids. They need to be involved.

You cant force parents to be parents. Give the motivation to the kids. Pay the kids. I've written about this before.


2. teachers who dread their job because they can not hand out discipline because the parents would sue them.

Remove the incentive to equate a pay raise with getting a Masters in education. Pay the kids. Losing pay will become the discipline when they see what they are losing out on. Create discipline criteria that gets makes the student see whats at stake. Would you want to lose a paycheck?


3. teaching tolerance for everything, because heaven forbid we even offend child molesters.

stupid addition that has nothing to do with kids and everything to do with your personal political opinion.
Pay the kids.

4. kids are more concerned with rap and video games instead of learning. They figure life is hell anyway so why try to make it better. They see rappers making millions and aim for that thug lifestyle. Who is to blame? Parents.

Stop pointing fingers and look for a solution. Kids too interested in rappers and video games? Use that. Will kids who see the REALISTIC tangible product of their efforts become more or less infatuated with a rap fantasy? Will they actually develop a perspective on the value of work and reward, which may burst the rap fantasy, and give them a way to see how their own effort dictates their success? Would they learn the value of money in our society if they get the chance to spend it on games after they EARN it? I know I sure developed a helathy respect for money after having to work for it.

What if it's time to invest in students instead of teachers and bloated resources? I remember when every classroom HAD to have a computer in it.. which became an outdated neanderthal within 6 years. Teachers raises not seem to be the variable that increases learning output?


pay the kids.

 

[Cynic-American]

pay the kids.

no, why should they be paid for learning life skills?
The proper thing is to take away tenure from teachers if they cant produce above average students.
As for the parents, a license to have children should be mandatory.

 

[Diuretic]

no, why should they be paid for learning life skills?
The proper thing is to take away tenure from teachers if they cant produce above average students.
As for the parents, a license to have children should be mandatory.

There will always be below average, average and above-average students. You can shift the mean up a few notches but you won't get rid of the bell curve effect while students are graded on the curve.

 

[Cynic-American]

Can we get money back if a student cheats?