Someone screwed up big time

[RetiredGySgt]

The chain of command screwed this royally, I hope the investigation results in some kind of action against the doctor and at least several of his supposed leaders.

The Marine Corps and I am sure the Army have been shit hot about suicide. These people made major mistakes. The Doctor is an idiot at best.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071219/ap_on_re_us/a_soldier_s_suicide

 

[Dirt McGirt]

The chain of command screwed this royally, I hope the investigation results in some kind of action against the doctor and at least several of his supposed leaders.

The Marine Corps and I am sure the Army have been shit hot about suicide. These people made major mistakes. The Doctor is an idiot at best.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071219/ap_on_re_us/a_soldier_s_suicide

Very touching story. I feel for the family's loss. The picture says it all.

 

[Gunny]

The chain of command screwed this royally, I hope the investigation results in some kind of action against the doctor and at least several of his supposed leaders.

The Marine Corps and I am sure the Army have been shit hot about suicide. These people made major mistakes. The Doctor is an idiot at best.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071219/ap_on_re_us/a_soldier_s_suicide

From what I can tell reading the article, the CoC acted based on a recommendation by a psychologist. If anyone screwed up, I'd say it started with his misdiagnosis.

 

[82Marine89]

Godspeed PFC Jason Scheuerman.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

From what I can tell reading the article, the CoC acted based on a recommendation by a psychologist. If anyone screwed up, I'd say it started with his misdiagnosis.

The doctor is the top of the list for discipline BUT the soldiers actions, behavior and obvious depression were easily seen and identified, his direct supervisors, Platon Sgt, Squad leader and Platoon Commander as well as that idiot First Sgt are all a complete failure.

The Company Commander would have little knowledge on the condition of the soldier. And while the First Sgt might not either, his ignorant comments are way beyons the pale in a potential situation he DID know about.

So from top to bottom of whom I would investigate for action against...

The Doctor
The First Sgt
The Squad Leader
The Platoon Sgt
The Platoon Leader

I would reserve the harshest potential punishment for the Doctor and the First Sgt. I would also investigate what training the platoon leadership had on suicide prevention and based on that act against them.

Nothing criminal though, though the Doctor is pushing it.

 

[pegwinn]

Fucking Unsat.

The CO at both Company and Battalion level need to be relieved.

The First Sergeant and Sergeant Major need to be relieved. Additionally the First Sergeant needs to spend a few minutes alone in a locked room with the dad.

The entire COC is culpable. No leader is perfect, but we ensure that every troop is seen and known by more than one. His fireteam leader, squad leader, Plt Sgt, Plt Commander should have seen and known him from daily interaction. His leadership should have been briefing the Company Leadership and those briefings go up the Chain of Command.

What these people did was to assume he was a shitbird and ignore the PME that has been ongoing since the mid 1990's on suicide awareness.

I can't speak for or against the Doc since I don't have the training. But I damn sure have enough leadership experience to know that some-fucking-body should have run up the bullshit flag and gotten a second opinion.

I hope the IG frags these fuckers but good.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Fucking Unsat.

The CO at both Company and Battalion level need to be relieved.

The First Sergeant and Sergeant Major need to be relieved. Additionally the First Sergeant needs to spend a few minutes alone in a locked room with the dad.

The entire COC is culpable. No leader is perfect, but we ensure that every troop is seen and known by more than one. His fireteam leader, squad leader, Plt Sgt, Plt Commander should have seen and known him from daily interaction. His leadership should have been briefing the Company Leadership and those briefings go up the Chain of Command.

What these people did was to assume he was a shitbird and ignore the PME that has been ongoing since the mid 1990's on suicide awareness.

I can't speak for or against the Doc since I don't have the training. But I damn sure have enough leadership experience to know that some-fucking-body should have run up the bullshit flag and gotten a second opinion.

I hope the IG frags these fuckers but good.

Yup I was getting out in 95, BUT at least 5 years before that the Marine Corps was hot and heavy into suicide prevention training. No way the Army was not also.

That First Sgt is an idiot. The Platoon Sgt sounds like he was untrained and we have no comments from his squad leader. If the troops saw it there is no way the platoon leaders did not. Classic case of depression, and depression in those conditions with access to a loaded firearm is moronic. Basic leadership training.

He wasn't shaving, he wasn't bathing, he wasn't changing cloths, he was not acting as he had previously, he voiced doubts, he put his damn gun to his head and mouth in front of others. HE ask to see a health care provider. He sent a suicide good bye to his MOTHER.

These people screwed up beyond belief. And they know it or they would not have been so short on the information to his family.

Having been a leader of troops, there is a HUGE difference between a shit bird and the actions so easily observed by this private. His Command failed and in a major way.

 

[pegwinn]

Having been a leader of troops, there is a HUGE difference between a shit bird and the actions so easily observed by this private. His Command failed and in a major way.

That is exactly my reaction and why I went straight into rant mode.

 

[doniston]

From what I can tell reading the article, the CoC acted based on a recommendation by a psychologist. If anyone screwed up, I'd say it started with his misdiagnosis.

Interesting that you would add the codicil "IF" to the discussion--- But not unexpected. At least your Gunny buddy admits to the posibility that Someone screwed up.

 

[MasterChief]

The doctor is the top of the list for discipline BUT the soldiers actions, behavior and obvious depression were easily seen and identified, his direct supervisors, Platon Sgt, Squad leader and Platoon Commander as well as that idiot First Sgt are all a complete failure.

Nothing criminal though, though the Doctor is pushing it.

RetiredGySgt,
I agree completely. The system failed the boy. Suicide is nothing to fool around with. Whenever a young person starts playing with the idea and mimicking suicidal behavior, action must be taken immediately. The one that is really tough is the young person who gives no signals--my son was like that--but in this case there is no excuse.

 

[eots]

it is a epidemic LETS NOT PRETEND it is a isolated incident and someone just fumbled the ball



Suicide Epidemic Among Veterans, A CBS News Investigation Uncovers ..."He was gone,” said Mia Sagahon, whose soldier boyfriend committed suicide. Keteyian spoke with the families of five former soldiers who each served in Iraq ...
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_investigates/main3496471.shtml


Growing suicide toll among troops - TelegraphThe number of troops who have committed suicide after serving in Iraq and Afghanistan is ... 14 November 2007: Troops get rough deal, says Chief of Defence ...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/15/ntroops115.xml

 

[Gunny]

The doctor is the top of the list for discipline BUT the soldiers actions, behavior and obvious depression were easily seen and identified, his direct supervisors, Platon Sgt, Squad leader and Platoon Commander as well as that idiot First Sgt are all a complete failure.

The Company Commander would have little knowledge on the condition of the soldier. And while the First Sgt might not either, his ignorant comments are way beyons the pale in a potential situation he DID know about.

So from top to bottom of whom I would investigate for action against...

The Doctor
The First Sgt
The Squad Leader
The Platoon Sgt
The Platoon Leader

I would reserve the harshest potential punishment for the Doctor and the First Sgt. I would also investigate what training the platoon leadership had on suicide prevention and based on that act against them.

Nothing criminal though, though the Doctor is pushing it.

Maybe I missed it, but didn't his CoC send him to the psychologist? The psychologist then comes back with a statement to the effect that the soldier could be faking it.

Now we've all been there. Is the guy faking because he's a slacker? Or is it real? The doc's prognosis is going to weigh heavily.

Had a young LCpl who never had deployed. Went on 30 days RIMPAC and came back claiming to be gay. We KNEW he wasn't, but he convinced the powers that were that he was and got out.

I know being gay is not comparable to being suicidal. My point is merely to illustrate what lengths some will go to just to get out.

I'm really not taking either side of the argument either because I wasn't there. I'm just tossing the viewpoint of having been the SNCOIC into the mix.

 

[Gunny]

Fucking Unsat.

The CO at both Company and Battalion level need to be relieved.

The First Sergeant and Sergeant Major need to be relieved. Additionally the First Sergeant needs to spend a few minutes alone in a locked room with the dad.

The entire COC is culpable. No leader is perfect, but we ensure that every troop is seen and known by more than one. His fireteam leader, squad leader, Plt Sgt, Plt Commander should have seen and known him from daily interaction. His leadership should have been briefing the Company Leadership and those briefings go up the Chain of Command.

What these people did was to assume he was a shitbird and ignore the PME that has been ongoing since the mid 1990's on suicide awareness.

I can't speak for or against the Doc since I don't have the training. But I damn sure have enough leadership experience to know that some-fucking-body should have run up the bullshit flag and gotten a second opinion.

I hope the IG frags these fuckers but good.

I definitely agree with getting the second opinion.

 

[Gunny]

Interesting that you would add the codicil "IF" to the discussion--- But not unexpected. At least your Gunny buddy admits to the posibility that Someone screwed up.

Must you continue to prove you are moron everywhere you see my name? Dude, I'm married, and to a woman so you'll have to find someone else to be infatuated with.

And DO run your one brain cell back through the thread numbnuts and find where I said someone screwing up was not a possibility, then trot on back here and quote it.

Oh yeah, you STILL can't handle the quote function after HOW MANY YEARS?

 

[pegwinn]

it is a epidemic LETS NOT PRETEND it is a isolated incident and someone just fumbled the ball

Nobody said it was isolated. We are discussing one case where the reported facts point to a leadership and medical failure.

I'm really not taking either side of the argument either because I wasn't there. I'm just tossing the viewpoint of having been the SNCOIC into the mix.

That was the point of my rant. I have held many troop leader positions from fireteam leader to company first shirt on a permanent basis. Hell I was even the bn sgtmaj for a couple of months till the new guy got in the door.

My view is that you leave little to nothing to chance. When incountry you have to be able to trust the kid with a weapon. If he could be pulled off the line to see a witch doctor, then he could have been pulled for a second opinion. My biggest beef is that apparently the chain of command felt he was a bird and took the first diagnosis since it "confirmed" thier feeling.

And yeah, I once did the same thing except the kid was claiming back pain and I thought he just wanted to get out of the hump into the field. Turned out (after I made him hike) that he had a ruptured disk.

 

[doniston]

Must you continue to prove you are moron everywhere you see my name? Dude, I'm married, and to a woman so you'll have to find someone else to be infatuated with.

And DO run your one brain cell back through the thread numbnuts and find where I said someone screwing up was not a possibility, then trot on back here and quote it.

Oh yeah, you STILL can't handle the quote function after HOW MANY YEARS?

1. Infatuated????? Hardly, I think you are dispicable. and I think you know that.

2. You did cast doubts whether an error was made. So that comment is, (was) garbage.

3. So what was (is) wrong with my quote? It looks fine to me.

4. And why do you remain such a Jackass?

 

[Gunny]

Nobody said it was isolated. We are discussing one case where the reported facts point to a leadership and medical failure.



That was the point of my rant. I have held many troop leader positions from fireteam leader to company first shirt on a permanent basis. Hell I was even the bn sgtmaj for a couple of months till the new guy got in the door.

My view is that you leave little to nothing to chance. When incountry you have to be able to trust the kid with a weapon. If he could be pulled off the line to see a witch doctor, then he could have been pulled for a second opinion. My biggest beef is that apparently the chain of command felt he was a bird and took the first diagnosis since it "confirmed" thier feeling.

And yeah, I once did the same thing except the kid was claiming back pain and I thought he just wanted to get out of the hump into the field. Turned out (after I made him hike) that he had a ruptured disk.

As previously stated, I have no problem with more opinions, and in fact, would want them myself.

My impression here is a rush to judgement because the end result is known. Without the end result, there are questions that need to be answered. I'm not sure we know all the facts based on one article.

I really have no problem with holding the CoC accountable. I'd just like to see a few more facts before i start hanging people.

 

[Gunny]

1. Infatuated????? Hardly, I think you are dispicable. and I think you know that.

2. You did cast doubts whether an error was made. So that comment is, (was) garbage.

3. So what was (is) wrong with my quote? It looks fine to me.

4. And why do you remain such a Jackass?

So I cast doubt? Address the topic or piss off, huh?

 

[doniston]

So I cast doubt? Address the topic or piss off, huh?

You are the one who took it off topic with your insult, not I I simply responded. Try getting your head on straight

 

[RetiredGySgt]

As previously stated, I have no problem with more opinions, and in fact, would want them myself.

My impression here is a rush to judgement because the end result is known. Without the end result, there are questions that need to be answered. I'm not sure we know all the facts based on one article.

I really have no problem with holding the CoC accountable. I'd just like to see a few more facts before i start hanging people.

Gunny read the article. If the private was acting as the article says he was there IS no doubt. The Platoon leaders should have known what was coming. He wasn't shaving, he wasn't bathing, he was sleeping on the floor, he PUT HIS WEAPON to his mouth and head numerous times. He changed from being a good soldier to being a problem in a short time.

I don't know when you got out, but those are all classic signs of a real problem, something that is drilled into leaders at all levels heads now. The Doctor was an idiot and the platoon leaders should have KNOWN better then to give that man his weapon back.

Just because he never said " I am suicidal" to the Doctor the doctor ignored all his training. IF he didn't have the facts, that again falls back on the Platoon leaders.

Nothing criminal should be done, but damn it those leaders failed and cost a life. They should have something put in their record about said failure. The Doctor should be checked for competence.

Come on, he sent a suicide goodbye to his MOTHER and all the unit did is say, "well gee, he is still alive and didn't shot himself yet" Absolute failure of his platoon leadership.