Someone please explain the logic of what God is doing because I don't get it

[JoeB131]

I'm going to try to keep this discussion civil without the weird seque about a bottle. (Which really made no sense... I'd be doing really well if Bezos gave me $50MM and all he got was a bottle. Not that I drink scotch, because I don't.)

Jephthah is not the most sophisticated guy who receives a promise from God that he will win a war that is impossible to win.
The promise is kept.

Why would the war be "impossible" to win? The Hebrew elders didn't pick him at random, they picked him because of his fighting prowess.

Jephthah blurts out that he will offer a sacrifice to God consisting of the first thing he sees when he gets home.

Okay- The problem with this is that God should have known that. Maybe even modestly say, "Did you really think this one through, buddy?"

Jephthah gets home and sees his daughter.

Jephthah does not offer his daughter as a sacrifice because the penalty for doing so is death if seen by 2 witnesses and we all know that the victor of war is escorted home.

Okay, so what you are saying here is Jephthah was a selfish bastard who would rather murder his own daughter than be killed himself.

Jephthah got his military victory and looks like a fool.

Actually, the person who looks like a fool here is Yahweh... or just an evil bastard.

Now you see how emotional people such as yourselves are always shooting off your mouths and saying stupid things without thinking.

Actually, you seem to the be the one getting emotional about it. The problem with the OT is that is it full of awful stories like this. Mostly because it was written by Bronze Age savages to whom "God" was every force of nature they didn't understand. Droughts. Plague. Locust. Wars. God must be upset with us. Who do we have to murder to appease God? Today we'd consider people like that savages, but you are kind of stuck reconciling it with your modern sensibilities.

 

[Indeependent]

I'm going to try to keep this discussion civil without the weird seque about a bottle. (Which really made no sense... I'd be doing really well if Bezos gave me $50MM and all he got was a bottle. Not that I drink scotch, because I don't.)

Jephthah is not the most sophisticated guy who receives a promise from God that he will win a war that is impossible to win.
The promise is kept.

Why would the war be "impossible" to win? The Hebrew elders didn't pick him at random, they picked him because of his fighting prowess.

Jephthah blurts out that he will offer a sacrifice to God consisting of the first thing he sees when he gets home.

Okay- The problem with this is that God should have known that. Maybe even modestly say, "Did you really think this one through, buddy?"

Jephthah gets home and sees his daughter.

Jephthah does not offer his daughter as a sacrifice because the penalty for doing so is death if seen by 2 witnesses and we all know that the victor of war is escorted home.

Okay, so what you are saying here is Jephthah was a selfish bastard who would rather murder his own daughter than be killed himself.

Jephthah got his military victory and looks like a fool.

Actually, the person who looks like a fool here is Yahweh... or just an evil bastard.

Now you see how emotional people such as yourselves are always shooting off your mouths and saying stupid things without thinking.

Actually, you seem to the be the one getting emotional about it. The problem with the OT is that is it full of awful stories like this. Mostly because it was written by Bronze Age savages to whom "God" was every force of nature they didn't understand. Droughts. Plague. Locust. Wars. God must be upset with us. Who do we have to murder to appease God? Today we'd consider people like that savages, but you are kind of stuck reconciling it with your modern sensibilities.

Why would the war be "impossible" to win? The Hebrew elders didn't pick him at random, they picked him because of his fighting prowess.

And Tom Brady is a great quarterback who doesn't need a team to win.
When's the last time you used your brain, if ever?

Jephthah...
You're missing the same point that you wouldn't miss if this were a Hollywood production featuring naked Asian women...
Jephthah should have been somewhat humbled by now knowing he won because of God, not because of himself.
Just make believe the characters in a story like this are the kind of people you admire...
Gay Hollywood stars who engage in sexual intercourse in public.

 

[Meriweather]

I understand the story just fine.

A savage God demanded a savage sacrifice.

The second sentence proves my point.

 

[JoeB131]

It appears that Jephthah did sacrifice his daughter. Needlessly. As any Rabbi or Judge could/should have told him. God made it clear to Abraham that child sacrifice was not wanted. We see that lesson was learned and passed on because when Jacob said he would sacrifice one-tenth of all he had, he certainly did not sacrifice one of his sons (which were certainly part of all he had). Jephthah's first error was offering an unwanted sacrifice.

Here's the first problem with this logic. If God didn't want the sacrifice, then why give Jephthah the victory he prayed for? Remember, this is written as a quid-pro-quo. YOu let me kill the Ammonites, I'll kill something as a burnt offering. I'm guessing he thought it would a sheep or an oxen or something like that, because the OT goes on and on about how God loves that shit. But God who knows all and sees all, should have known damned well it would be his daughter. So Jephy was foolish, but God was outright fucking evil.

His second mistake was not talking to a Rabbi or a Judge about the circumstance he had created for himself. The mistake of his peers (other leaders) is that upon learning of Jephthah's vow, they did not go to him. (All too often people think that if a person wants advice from someone higher or more learned than himself, that person has the duty to seek out the more knowledgeable, not expect the expert to come to him.)

Okay, another flaw in this logic. In this period, the Judges were the highest authority amongst the Hebrews. They didn't have Kings until Saul. Jephthah judged Israel for six years.

As far as not knowing what was going on, in the next chapter the Ephramites are asking why he didn't ask them to join in the war against Ammon. He then proceeds to kill 42,000 of them. - his own people. The guy was a stone cold sociopath. Yet the New Testament calls him a man of valor in Hebrews 11.

The error of those who did know the Law better, like any other person of that day, would not presume to tell the person in command of his mistake. Even when we are in awe or in fear of someone higher up, when we know more, we still have the duty to put that fear or awe behind us and offer the knowledge we have.

I am aware that some believe Jephthah's daughter lived, but in away in isolation. Should that have been the case, the sacrifice was just as brutal. Ask the parents of modern day children who could not bear the isolation imposed on them due to the Covid virus and committed suicide.

Um, kind of off topic, but any kid who would kill himself over Covid was probably going to kill himself over something at some point.

Of course, this isn't what the text says, and this is just modern Christians trying to "Disney" the story.

When JoeB reads scripture he seems to do so with the motive of proving to others what an awful being God is. He doesn't take into consideration the object of the story, and the original audience, who surely knew Jephthah erred. There was more to learn from the story...first and foremost not to offer any sacrifice that is not pleasing to God.

Um.. no. God makes it pretty clear what he does to people who give him sacrifices he doesn't like, when he zapped the sons of Aaron for using the wrong incense. (Leviticus 10:1-3) Moses then tells Aaron and the rest of his family to not mourn the two dead sons because that will make God angry and he'll kill them, too.

So it would seem to me that God had a whole bunch of options rather than just accepting Jephy's daughter's burned flesh with an "aw, shucks, you shouldn't have, really" like when your Aunt buys you a tie you don't like for Christmas.

Did the Scripture writers think Jephthah erred or was a bad person?

Check this out from the Book of Hebrews in the New Testament.

11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Seems to me that they are putting Jephy up there with the all-stars of Biblical faith.

Now, I would be remiss if I didn't point out the whole theme of the Book of Judges was to show how bad things had gotten in Israel after Joshua (another genocidal maniac) because they lacked clear and consistant leadership until God appointed Kings. (Except the Kings of Judah and Israel tend to be a bunch of feckless twits, too, for the most part.)

But you read these stories, God comes off as a petty, vindictive, narcissitic twit lacking any empathy... you know, like THIS guy

 

[JoeB131]

I understand the story just fine.

A savage God demanded a savage sacrifice.

The second sentence proves my point.

You remind me of this woman...

 

[JoeB131]

And Tom Brady is a great quarterback who doesn't need a team to win.
When's the last time you used your brain, if ever?

Jephthah...
You're missing the same point that you wouldn't miss if this were a Hollywood production featuring naked Asian women...
Jephthah should have been somewhat humbled by now knowing he won because of God, not because of himself.
Just make believe the characters in a story like this are the kind of people you admire...
Gay Hollywood stars who engage in sexual intercourse in public.

Actually, when reading a story, I look at the plot.

Who are the characters? What are their motivation.

I can kind of understand Jephy's motivation. He wants to defeat the Ammonites. He wants the prestige of his father, even though he was the son of a harlot.

God is the one who comes off like a jerk. He's just fucking with Jephy. WHich I'd admit, if I had omnipotent powers, I'd probably go around fucking with people too...

 

[Indeependent]

It appears that Jephthah did sacrifice his daughter. Needlessly. As any Rabbi or Judge could/should have told him. God made it clear to Abraham that child sacrifice was not wanted. We see that lesson was learned and passed on because when Jacob said he would sacrifice one-tenth of all he had, he certainly did not sacrifice one of his sons (which were certainly part of all he had). Jephthah's first error was offering an unwanted sacrifice.

Here's the first problem with this logic. If God didn't want the sacrifice, then why give Jephthah the victory he prayed for? Remember, this is written as a quid-pro-quo. YOu let me kill the Ammonites, I'll kill something as a burnt offering. I'm guessing he thought it would a sheep or an oxen or something like that, because the OT goes on and on about how God loves that shit. But God who knows all and sees all, should have known damned well it would be his daughter. So Jephy was foolish, but God was outright fucking evil.

His second mistake was not talking to a Rabbi or a Judge about the circumstance he had created for himself. The mistake of his peers (other leaders) is that upon learning of Jephthah's vow, they did not go to him. (All too often people think that if a person wants advice from someone higher or more learned than himself, that person has the duty to seek out the more knowledgeable, not expect the expert to come to him.)

Okay, another flaw in this logic. In this period, the Judges were the highest authority amongst the Hebrews. They didn't have Kings until Saul. Jephthah judged Israel for six years.

As far as not knowing what was going on, in the next chapter the Ephramites are asking why he didn't ask them to join in the war against Ammon. He then proceeds to kill 42,000 of them. - his own people. The guy was a stone cold sociopath. Yet the New Testament calls him a man of valor in Hebrews 11.

The error of those who did know the Law better, like any other person of that day, would not presume to tell the person in command of his mistake. Even when we are in awe or in fear of someone higher up, when we know more, we still have the duty to put that fear or awe behind us and offer the knowledge we have.

I am aware that some believe Jephthah's daughter lived, but in away in isolation. Should that have been the case, the sacrifice was just as brutal. Ask the parents of modern day children who could not bear the isolation imposed on them due to the Covid virus and committed suicide.

Um, kind of off topic, but any kid who would kill himself over Covid was probably going to kill himself over something at some point.

Of course, this isn't what the text says, and this is just modern Christians trying to "Disney" the story.

When JoeB reads scripture he seems to do so with the motive of proving to others what an awful being God is. He doesn't take into consideration the object of the story, and the original audience, who surely knew Jephthah erred. There was more to learn from the story...first and foremost not to offer any sacrifice that is not pleasing to God.

Um.. no. God makes it pretty clear what he does to people who give him sacrifices he doesn't like, when he zapped the sons of Aaron for using the wrong incense. (Leviticus 10:1-3) Moses then tells Aaron and the rest of his family to not mourn the two dead sons because that will make God angry and he'll kill them, too.

So it would seem to me that God had a whole bunch of options rather than just accepting Jephy's daughter's burned flesh with an "aw, shucks, you shouldn't have, really" like when your Aunt buys you a tie you don't like for Christmas.

Did the Scripture writers think Jephthah erred or was a bad person?

Check this out from the Book of Hebrews in the New Testament.

11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Seems to me that they are putting Jephy up there with the all-stars of Biblical faith.

Now, I would be remiss if I didn't point out the whole theme of the Book of Judges was to show how bad things had gotten in Israel after Joshua (another genocidal maniac) because they lacked clear and consistant leadership until God appointed Kings. (Except the Kings of Judah and Israel tend to be a bunch of feckless twits, too, for the most part.)

But you read these stories, God comes off as a petty, vindictive, narcissitic twit lacking any empathy... you know, like THIS guy

View attachment 454818

Um.. no. God makes it pretty clear what he does to people who give him sacrifices he doesn't like, when he zapped the sons of Aaron for using the wrong incense. (Leviticus 10:1-3) Moses then tells Aaron and the rest of his family to not mourn the two dead sons because that will make God angry and he'll kill them, too.

Like what happens when you're in the military and you get a life sentence for doing something for which they told you you would get a life sentence for?
Your debating skills suck because you have a double standard for secular society than for a Godly society.

I could rip you to shreds on every point you bring up by comparing it to your society but your hatred is impossible to overcome.

 

[Indeependent]

And Tom Brady is a great quarterback who doesn't need a team to win.
When's the last time you used your brain, if ever?

Jephthah...
You're missing the same point that you wouldn't miss if this were a Hollywood production featuring naked Asian women...
Jephthah should have been somewhat humbled by now knowing he won because of God, not because of himself.
Just make believe the characters in a story like this are the kind of people you admire...
Gay Hollywood stars who engage in sexual intercourse in public.

Actually, when reading a story, I look at the plot.

Who are the characters? What are their motivation.

I can kind of understand Jephy's motivation. He wants to defeat the Ammonites. He wants the prestige of his father, even though he was the son of a harlot.

God is the one who comes off like a jerk. He's just fucking with Jephy. WHich I'd admit, if I had omnipotent powers, I'd probably go around fucking with people too...

What's the main difference between Jephy and almost every other military leader in the Scriptures?

In fact, Jephy's attitude would get him the firing squad in almost every military in history.

 

[Meriweather]

Now, you can speculate that this was an explanation of a time when the Hebrews were trying to whitewash their past (where human sacrifice was probably a lot more common), but Jephy's story was probably so well known, they had to do some extra scrubbing.

Snort. It is easy to see what the first person is doing by what he accuses the second person of doing (speculating).
Read the story from the beginning starting with Adam and Eve. These people were familiar with the story of Abraham, of Jacob--and the lessons these stories taught. For the Jews, child sacrifice had been forbidden for generations.

Two fatal assumptions: God is savage. Ancient men were stupid and ignorant. Start instead with God is love; our ancestors, as a whole, were intelligent and well reasoned.

 

[Indeependent]

Now, you can speculate that this was an explanation of a time when the Hebrews were trying to whitewash their past (where human sacrifice was probably a lot more common), but Jephy's story was probably so well known, they had to do some extra scrubbing.

Snort. It is easy to see what the first person is doing by what he accuses the second person of doing (speculating).
Read the story from the beginning starting with Adam and Eve. These people were familiar with the story of Abraham, of Jacob--and the lessons these stories taught. For the Jews, child sacrifice had been forbidden for generations.

Two fatal assumptions: God is savage. Ancient men were stupid and ignorant. Start instead with God is love; our ancestors, as a whole, were intelligent and well reasoned.

Anyone with an IQ above -200 can tell that Joe can't let go of his hate.
Perhaps he was raped by an ugly nun.

 

[Meriweather]

he is now having fun playing with his own, self-appointed, authoritative divinity

This is not only silly, it is positively insulting to people of the Jewish faith. Nothing I have written is "divined". It took years of study of books, articles, and commentary by Jewish rabbis and Jewish scholars. This began with setting aside modern English and modern culture perspectives and listening to those who know Hebrew and the culture of Old Testament times.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

This is not only silly, it is positively insulting to people of the Jewish faith.

No, it is only insulting to the idea that anyone thinks they possess the one, true interpretation of myths that were meant to be literal when invented by terrified, superstitious, iron age people.

 

[Indeependent]

And Tom Brady is a great quarterback who doesn't need a team to win.
When's the last time you used your brain, if ever?

Jephthah...
You're missing the same point that you wouldn't miss if this were a Hollywood production featuring naked Asian women...
Jephthah should have been somewhat humbled by now knowing he won because of God, not because of himself.
Just make believe the characters in a story like this are the kind of people you admire...
Gay Hollywood stars who engage in sexual intercourse in public.

Actually, when reading a story, I look at the plot.

Who are the characters? What are their motivation.

I can kind of understand Jephy's motivation. He wants to defeat the Ammonites. He wants the prestige of his father, even though he was the son of a harlot.

God is the one who comes off like a jerk. He's just fucking with Jephy. WHich I'd admit, if I had omnipotent powers, I'd probably go around fucking with people too...

What's the main difference between Jephy and almost every other military leader in the Scriptures?

In fact, Jephy's attitude would get him the firing squad in almost every military in history.

Before I forget...
You're an atheist.
Can I have your connection to God that you're not using?
Simply answer "Yes" accompanied by as much "snark" as you please.

 

[Indeependent]

This is not only silly, it is positively insulting to people of the Jewish faith.

No, it is only insulting to the idea that anyone thinks they possess the one, true interpretation of myths that were meant to be literal when invented by terrified, superstitious, iron age people.

Try relating that opinion when you're in the middle of a group of 100 of those who will kill you for saying that.

 

[JoeB131]

Like what happens when you're in the military and you get a life sentence for doing something for which they told you you would get a life sentence for?
Your debating skills suck because you have a double standard for secular society than for a Godly society.

I could rip you to shreds on every point you bring up by comparing it to your society but your hatred is impossible to overcome.

Here's the thing. None of you clowns would want to live in a "Godly Society". Most of you would get stoned to death for doing something stupid in a week.

Snort. It is easy to see what the first person is doing by what he accuses the second person of doing (speculating).
Read the story from the beginning starting with Adam and Eve. These people were familiar with the story of Abraham, of Jacob--and the lessons these stories taught. For the Jews, child sacrifice had been forbidden for generations.

Actually, you don't have to speculate... Human sacrifice was quite common in the Bronze Age... we have archeological records. When later Iron Age societies reflected on it, there was quite a lot of historical revisionism. (Not just the Hebrews, but the Greeks as well)

Two fatal assumptions: God is savage. Ancient men were stupid and ignorant. Start instead with God is love; our ancestors, as a whole, were intelligent and well reasoned.

Um... no. They were savage brutes who lived savage and brutish lives. Our ancestors were savages. When the Abrahamic God became the God of the Roman Empire, it collapsed into barbarism. The Dark Ages were a Faith-Based Initiative.

I don't think God is savage because I don't think he exists. Of course, savage men imagined a savage god, while more advanced people imagined a kinder God. When we are truly advanced, we won't need any Gods at all and we'll all be better off for it.

 

[JoeB131]

What's the main difference between Jephy and almost every other military leader in the Scriptures?

In fact, Jephy's attitude would get him the firing squad in almost every military in history.

The main difference was they didn't kill their own kids as a victory celebration.

Frankly, the story doesn't go into a lot of detail about what kind of military leader he was, other than he won, not only defeating the Ammonites and the Ephraimites.

The tactic of making people pronounce the word "Shibboleth" to pick out the Ephraimites from the other tribes of Israel was kind of clever. I mean, other than his killing 42,000 of his fellow Hebrews in the process.

 

[JoeB131]

Before I forget...
You're an atheist.
Can I have your connection to God that you're not using?
Simply answer "Yes" accompanied by as much "snark" as you please.

You're not talking to God.

Those are voices in your head.

We have medications for that now.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

This is not only silly, it is positively insulting to people of the Jewish faith.

No, it is only insulting to the idea that anyone thinks they possess the one, true interpretation of myths that were meant to be literal when invented by terrified, superstitious, iron age people.

he is now having fun playing with his own, self-appointed, authoritative divinity

This is not only silly, it is positively insulting to people of the Jewish faith. Nothing I have written is "divined". It took years of study of books, articles, and commentary by Jewish rabbis and Jewish scholars. This began with setting aside modern English and modern culture perspectives and listening to those who know Hebrew and the culture of Old Testament times.

The next time i observe a discussion with multiple religious people, and ANY TWO are in 100% agreement 100% of the time about 100% of the interpretations of the myths in even ONE book of the Bible, much less the entire Bible, will be the first.

So class...what does this tell us? It says: Don't trust someone who claims to have the RIGHT interpretations. Unfortunately...that's all of them!

 

[Indeependent]

Before I forget...
You're an atheist.
Can I have your connection to God that you're not using?
Simply answer "Yes" accompanied by as much "snark" as you please.

You're not talking to God.

Those are voices in your head.

We have medications for that now.

I didn't say communication with God, I said connection.
Your anger causes you to mistranslate everything.

 

[Indeependent]

Here's the thing. None of you clowns would want to live in a "Godly Society". Most of you would get stoned to death for doing something stupid in a week.

It's obvious you know nothing about Talmudic law; the demands for proving guilt of a Biblical transgression are almost impossible.
In fact, the one time in history that the death penalty was possible, due to purposeful public transgressions, the Sanhedrin disbanded.
But don't facts stop you from being an ignorant hater.