Solutions for Universal Healthcare in the US

[pknopp]

We don't need government to provide us with health care. In a free society, government isn't our "provider". To the extent that it is, society is not free.

When we have a "free" society that may be argued.

What do you mean? What point are you trying to make? That we should give up?

That we do not have a free society so don't argue we do. I posted a story of 11 men getting arrested because of having the audacity of driving through a state with their guns. Do you call this free?

 

[dblack]

We don't need government to provide us with health care. In a free society, government isn't our "provider". To the extent that it is, society is not free.

When we have a "free" society that may be argued.

What do you mean? What point are you trying to make? That we should give up?

That we do not have a free society so don't argue we do.

I still don't get your point. I'm not arguing that we have a perfectly free society. It's not a toggle switch. We can have more freedom, or less. What's your preference?

 

[pknopp]

We don't need government to provide us with health care. In a free society, government isn't our "provider". To the extent that it is, society is not free.

When we have a "free" society that may be argued.

What do you mean? What point are you trying to make? That we should give up?

That we do not have a free society so don't argue we do.

I still don't get your point. I'm not arguing that we have a perfectly free society. It's not a toggle switch. We can have more freedom, or less. What's your preference?

One never has "freedom" absent of life and health. I am not able to grasp the idea of being able to afford health care as being a drag on anyone's freedom.

 

[shockedcanadian]

As a benefactor of this "free and universal healthcare" I can give you only my perspective and compare to what I know of Americas.

First, quality is far better in the U.S. I'm talking about sheer competence and skillset of doctors. In fact, we lose many of our top talent to the U.S, so, even on that standard alone, we are losing. I've been on many U.S forums and heard about the successes of their healthcare, I've watched many U.S health practitioners on youtube and elsewhere. You have more variety and competence in your system.

Universality is true in theory, but, in a covert system of centralized power, there is always someone who can pull the strings to deny your pursuits of healthcare. Government run is just that.

Have bad experiences in our system? Who are you going to complain to for accountability? Employees are unionized and overworked. Good luck with that.

We also have what is referred to as "Hallway Healthcare". Since we lack beds, doctors and nurses even though funding from our taxes is allocated far more to healthcare than any other issue, at least on the provincial level. So, we aren't as expensive as the U.S system but still have mismanagement or lack of resources to deal with a small population. People are being misdiagnosed, dying in hallways, on floors, or, without even being able to see a doctor. It's cruel, immoral and an insult to God. It's also not uncommon in our system.

We could certainly use A.I in our system, and we could use more efficiencies as well.

I'm more of a fan of a hybrid system as I believe a private/public system works best. All systems need full transparency of costs though and those providers need to be held to account in terms of profit margins.

You would expect slightly slower care in the public, but not enough for one to say "I have a far higher chance of dying in the public system over the private". The private system can support the public while offloading pressure from the public system.

I am willing to bet that longterm, Canada won't be able to sustain a purely public model. We are already seeing the expansion of private services which years ago weren't even allowed. The wealthy will always receive better treatment, that's life. It can benefit everyone if it creates less wait times and ensures more beds are available in the public system.

 

[dblack]

What do you mean? What point are you trying to make? That we should give up?

That we do not have a free society so don't argue we do.

I still don't get your point. I'm not arguing that we have a perfectly free society. It's not a toggle switch. We can have more freedom, or less. What's your preference?

One never has "freedom" absent of life and health.

I still don't get your point. You seem to see it as an all-or-nothing prospect. Why?? Just building a strawman so you can dismiss it?

I am not able to grasp the idea of being able to afford health care as being a drag on anyone's freedom.

I realize that. I'm trying to explain it to you. When someone controls access to the things you need, they control you.

Would you also advocate for government controlling access to housing? Food? Everything else we need?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

We don't need government to provide us with health care. In a free society, government isn't our "provider". To the extent that it is, society is not free.

Medicaid and Medicare?

 

[dblack]

We don't need government to provide us with health care. In a free society, government isn't our "provider". To the extent that it is, society is not free.

Medicaid and Medicare?

Yep. Same stuff.

 

[justinacolmena]

The decades I was on private healthcare versus the VA, the VA is better.

The govt. hires private medical practioners to implement any Medicare or Medicaid services. The only problem is they hold back on services and test because of the low pay.
At the VA if I need a test I am scheduled automatically.

NSA has too much intelligence on Veterans Affairs hiring foreign doctors who practice bad medicine to cripple veterans as well as active duty troops.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

We don't need government to provide us with health care. In a free society, government isn't our "provider". To the extent that it is, society is not free.

Medicaid and Medicare?

Yep. Same stuff.

So I am in your camp but our insurance system sucks and knock on wood my insurance is really good but the bills I see are mind boggling for small procedures like sprained ankle cures and such. I like the LASIK method. Pay for what you want and allow free markets to reign but that is not a solution either.

 

[Flash]

I have the best solution:

1. No universal health care

2. No government welfare program

3. No government subsidies

4. Everybody is responsible for their own health care bills and the government has nothing to do with it.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

As a benefactor of this "free and universal healthcare" I can give you only my perspective and compare to what I know of Americas.

First, quality is far better in the U.S. I'm talking about sheer competence and skillset of doctors. In fact, we lose many of our top talent to the U.S, so, even on that standard alone, we are losing. I've been on many U.S forums and heard about the successes of their healthcare, I've watched many U.S health practitioners on youtube and elsewhere. You have more variety and competence in your system.

Universality is true in theory, but, in a covert system of centralized power, there is always someone who can pull the strings to deny your pursuits of healthcare. Government run is just that.

Have bad experiences in our system? Who are you going to complain to for accountability? Employees are unionized and overworked. Good luck with that.

We also have what is referred to as "Hallway Healthcare". Since we lack beds, doctors and nurses even though funding from our taxes is allocated far more to healthcare than any other issue, at least on the provincial level. So, we aren't as expensive as the U.S system but still have mismanagement or lack of resources to deal with a small population. People are being misdiagnosed, dying in hallways, on floors, or, without even being able to see a doctor. It's cruel, immoral and an insult to God. It's also not uncommon in our system.

We could certainly use A.I in our system, and we could use more efficiencies as well.

I'm more of a fan of a hybrid system as I believe a private/public system works best. All systems need full transparency of costs though and those providers need to be held to account in terms of profit margins.

You would expect slightly slower care in the public, but not enough for one to say "I have a far higher chance of dying in the public system over the private". The private system can support the public while offloading resources from the public system.

I am willing to bet that longterm, Canada won't be able to sustain a purely public model. We are already seeing the expansion of private services which years ago weren't even allowed. The wealthy will always receive better treatment, that's life. It can benefit everyone if it creates less wait times and ensures more beds are available in the public system.

Dragonlady lauds Canadian healthcare as vastly superior to here. I believe you over her of course.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

I have the best solution:

1. No universal health care

2. No government welfare program

3. No government subsidies

4. Everybody is responsible for their own health care bills and the government has nothing to do with it.

So then we just let people die who cannot afford treatment? Not sure about that. I like The personal responsibility aspect but it’s not feasible IMO.

 

[dblack]

and the government has nothing to do with it.

So then we just let people die who cannot afford treatment?

Why would we do that? Getting government out of the way doesn't mean we "just let people die".

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

and the government has nothing to do with it.

So then we just let people die who cannot afford treatment?

Why would we do that? Getting government out of the way doesn't mean we "just let people die".

Then how would it work for someone with say decent but not great insurance. Their kid gets ill and needs major surgery and subsequent meds. Insurance won’t cover all of it and they cannot afford it. What happens to the kid? Or is it their problem as their insurance is inadequate? I am not saying there is a perfect solution as I am not sure what to do here myself in such an example.

 

[dblack]

Then how would it work for someone with say decent but not great insurance. Their kid gets ill and needs major surgery and subsequent meds. Insurance won’t cover all of it and they cannot afford it. What happens to the kid? Or is it their problem as their insurance is inadequate? I am not saying there is a perfect solution as I am not sure what to do here myself in such an example.

I don't know what happens in that case. In a free society we can't guarantee that everyone will get what they want or need. But government can't guarantee that either. It's an empty promise. We're fools if we trade freedom for an empty promise.

 

[Flash]

I have the best solution:

1. No universal health care

2. No government welfare program

3. No government subsidies

4. Everybody is responsible for their own health care bills and the government has nothing to do with it.

So then we just let people die who cannot afford treatment? Not sure about that. I like The personal responsibility aspect but it’s not feasible IMO.

It is not my responsibility to pay your health care bill. It is your responsibility.

If the government would stay out of the business of regulating the shit out of the health care business it would be less expensive for everybody.

 

[dblack]

I have the best solution:

1. No universal health care

2. No government welfare program

3. No government subsidies

4. Everybody is responsible for their own health care bills and the government has nothing to do with it.

So then we just let people die who cannot afford treatment? Not sure about that. I like The personal responsibility aspect but it’s not feasible IMO.

It is not my responsibility to pay your health care bill. It is your responsibility.

If the government would stay out of the business of regulating the shit out of the health care business it would be less expensive for everybody.

Yep. That's where it's starts. Then, when the ill-conceived regulation causes more problems than it solves, the "obvious" answer is more ill-conceived regulation!

 

[justinacolmena]

. I like the LASIK method. Pay for what you want and allow free markets to reign but that is not a solution either

You got an ex-girlfriend at the abortion clinic next door to the eye surgery clinic who doesn't want you to "see" other women? She just might pay a pretty penny to put your eyes out, and the good old doc will be happy to oblige. State school for the blind. You'll be a ward of the state and they'll teach you Braille.

 

[justinacolmena]

I have the best solution:

1. No universal health care

2. No government welfare program

3. No government subsidies

4. Everybody is responsible for their own health care bills and the government has nothing to do with it.

Lose the FBI/NICS and mandatory background checks then. Punish the psychologists and psychiatrists out of business, and eradicate the mental health industry from off the face of the planet Earth.

 

[Flash]

I have the best solution:

1. No universal health care

2. No government welfare program

3. No government subsidies

4. Everybody is responsible for their own health care bills and the government has nothing to do with it.

Lose the FBI/NICS and mandatory background checks then. Punish the psychologists and psychiatrists out of business, and eradicate the mental health industry from off the face of the planet Earth.

I would be happy if the government stopped using my tax money to pay other people's health care bills, they would do away for mandatory insurance coverage for things I don't want and they would allow interstate competition with insurance policies. That would be a great start.

Oh yes, I almost forgot. Make somebody pay their own bill when going to an emergency room. Why should I have to pay for somebody else?