Sodom and Gomorrah

[Foxfyre]

By the way, I was watching a Bible Mysteries program last night and they offered a theory re the destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah and other cities in that area. Scientists think a large meteorite may have hit a mountain and exploded much flaming material into the air that then rained down on the area in which Sodom and Gomorrah and other near eastern cities were located. It would have literally been fire and brimstone raining down from the sky which is how an eye witness would have described it.

Anyhow pretty interesting.

 

[logical4u]

The 30 years war: wikkopedia says ..... " disputes over the internal politics and balance of power within the Empire played a significant part" ......

The "conquest" of the Americas was not a religious war. It was people searching for liberty and freedom from ridgid laws over the denomination of Christianity one was "forced" to join.

Australian Aborigines: pretty much the same as the Native Americans in the west. Once the scammers figured out how to play the system (get "grants" from the gov't), there was no need to be considerate to the inhabitants of the land. (this is not religion, it is greed, pure and simple: part of that corruption that you want us all to embrace).

Albigisenian Crusade: can't find a mention of this one

At least you hinted at the cause of the Inquistion: islam

It does not look good for your "correction" on Christian wars.

Lets see what you can show for muslim wars????? Or is that where your fortitude, fails?

Albigensian Crusade- Fought in France during the 13th Century. A "heretical" religion called Catharism showed up which mixed Christianity and Manichism. Due to the corruption of the Catholic Church at that time, lots of people signed up.

During the seige of the town of Beziers, the Crusaders asked the Papal Legate, "How do we tell a good Christian from a Heretic." and he replied, "Kill them all, for God knows his own!" (Sometimes translated as "Kill them all, let God sort them out!")

Albigensian Crusade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rest of your point is that we can ignore the religious overtones of these murders and slaughters because, hey, there were political motives as well. (The same can be said of the Islamic Conquests).

So if Mitt Romney wins, you'll support him killing everyone who doesn't sign up for Mormonism, right?

I was pointing out how "Christians are just as bad as muslims" is not true. No where in the Bible does it say to murder everyone that does not believe as you do [there are specific cases where the Lord used the Hebrews to punish those that systematically sinned against the Lord (as the Lord used other kingdoms to punish the Hebrews when they sinned against Him)]. It does say in the quran to convert, subjugate or kill everyone that does not believe as a muslim (and since the "faith" is fractured into hundreds of different sects, that encourages muslims to kill just about everyone that doesn't belong to their "community".

Religious overtones are not "religious instruction". I know it would fit your cowardly opinion (do not speak fact about islam, no matter what, justify, make excuses, compare to far less significant crimes, etc) on islam to compare it to Christians, but there is very, very little to compare. It is like saying a parent that disciplines their child is like a pedophile because they use intimidation to control behavior, therefore pedophiles should have the same access to children.

I missed that in the news. Where did a mormon have four other men hold a bound man while sawing off his head, chanting to the Lord? Is that a new mormon cult where mormons are killing all "non-believers"?

 

[logical4u]

Ahhh, more of the "well that system isn't perfect" attitude. Your plan seems to be, well let's replace it with one that is known to fail, quickly, EVERY time it has been tried.

Every system has failed, eventually. That's when you come up with a new system. Atheism as a system has worked fine for me for 30 years. I get to enjoy my Sundays and I don't feel guilty about things I shouldn't feel guilty about.

As far as the Lord goes, His ways are not our ways. When a being tells you that He created all the physical laws, the solar system, the earth and life, you don't start lecturing Him. He will answer questions for those that are patient and pious.

But "the Lord" has never told me anything of the sort. Ministers, Priests, and idiots on the internet have told me these things, but I just don't find them terribly credible.

What you imagine to be barbaric could have been saving the next generations from having sins (punishments) heaped on their shoulders by their ancestors (you are aware that the "new" Covenant with the Christ, changed that?).

Oh, the old "That's the Old Testement(TM)" argument. When god acts like a complete asshole in the Old Testement, that's because it's the Old Testement. The New Testement came along and God started being nicer, so that makes all the behavior he demanded (except the ones that support your bigotry and homophobia) now no longer important. So we don't have to stone those rape victims anymore. Whew.

Apparently you choose to worship false idols (intellect) without having much or using your gift from the Lord: the ability to reason. After thousands and thousands of years of men proving that left to their own devices are corrupted beyond "evil", you want us to do that again. Take that path that ends in total corruption, and destruction. Why? Because this time, "this time" it will some how, magically, turn out differently. Try that reason thing and write down your plan on how that works. Maybe you just haven't seen it on paper.

Actually, I put down a reasoned version of it a few posts ago.

It what I do doesn't hurt anyone, it's moral. If it does, without a good reason, it's immoral.

Examples- I choose to have sex with someone who wants to have sex with me. - Moral.

I cheat someone out of their house so I can make money- Immoral.

Someone attacks me and I beat them silly- Moral.

Person asks me if this dress makes her look fat. - Hmmm. That's a tough one. I could lie and spare her feelings, or I could tell her the truth and maybe she'll do something about her weight. Okay, that's a tough one.

But anyway, it's a moral system that works just fine, really. No need for a sky pixie, no reason to go to a church and lets some hypocrite who can't deal with his homosexuality lecture to me.
No reason to try to excuse or rationalize 3000 year old barbaric myths where being gay was bad but offering your daughters up for gang rape was acceptable.

Atheism works for "you" because you live in a predominantly Christian based society.

Why would the Lord "crash" your world? If you don't want to believe, why would He force you to take notice? The Lord will let us make our own decisions; He expects us to live with the consequences of those decisions (unlike many in our society).

It appears that you do not "comprehend" the Old Testament. The Lord acted like a parent, disciplining children that were behaving badly.

... "It what I do doesn't hurt anyone, it's moral. If it does, without a good reason, it's immoral." ...
Is that anyone that you can tell? Or do you actually consider people that are not in the immediate picture that are hurt (but you can't see them, so it doesn't count)?

..."Examples- I choose to have sex with someone who wants to have sex with me. - Moral." ...
A pedophile says the same thing: that child wanted to have sex with me (according to your statement, that would be "moral"). A person that is having sex with another person that is already in a relationship is not "moral" (even if that other person "wants to have sex" with you).

..."I cheat someone out of their house so I can make money- Immoral." ...
glad to see you do see some things as just wrong

... "Someone attacks me and I beat them silly- Moral." ...
Yet many atheists want to tell Christians and Jews that they do not have this "right".

..."Person asks me if this dress makes her look fat. - Hmmm. That's a tough one. I could lie and spare her feelings, or I could tell her the truth and maybe she'll do something about her weight. Okay, that's a tough one."...
Glad to see that you do have some humor.

..."But anyway, it's a moral system that works just fine, really. No need for a sky pixie, no reason to go to a church and lets some hypocrite who can't deal with his homosexuality lecture to me."...
Why do we need a system of "laws" if the moral system of yours works "just fine"?

..."No reason to try to excuse or rationalize 3000 year old barbaric myths where being gay was bad but offering your daughters up for gang rape was acceptable"
It was a lesson. The Bible is a great self-help tool. There are lessons in every single book in the Bible. You choose to pretend that you have wisdom that does not come from the Lord (Holy Spirit). That is your choice. Many of us, find the lessons in the Bible worthy of study, and choose to learn from them. We get that you have declared yourself your own diety. We know where that leads. We know the kind of life you will have. We know how lonely your future will be. We know the demons will come to tempt you and to possess you. We also know the Lord will be there if "you" choose to call Him. It is your choice.

 

[JoeB131]

I was pointing out how "Christians are just as bad as muslims" is not true. No where in the Bible does it say to murder everyone that does not believe as you do [there are specific cases where the Lord used the Hebrews to punish those that systematically sinned against the Lord (as the Lord used other kingdoms to punish the Hebrews when they sinned against Him)]. It does say in the quran to convert, subjugate or kill everyone that does not believe as a muslim (and since the "faith" is fractured into hundreds of different sects, that encourages muslims to kill just about everyone that doesn't belong to their "community".

Religious overtones are not "religious instruction". I know it would fit your cowardly opinion (do not speak fact about islam, no matter what, justify, make excuses, compare to far less significant crimes, etc) on islam to compare it to Christians, but there is very, very little to compare. It is like saying a parent that disciplines their child is like a pedophile because they use intimidation to control behavior, therefore pedophiles should have the same access to children.

I missed that in the news. Where did a mormon have four other men hold a bound man while sawing off his head, chanting to the Lord? Is that a new mormon cult where mormons are killing all "non-believers"?

Maybe you should read up on the Mountain Meadows Massacre some time.

Look, guy, I suspect you probably don't actually even know any Muslims, your ignorance of them is so profound.

So, no Maybe Muslims did saw off a guys head, but Christians threw Jews into the gas chambers while wearing Belt Buckles that read "Gott Mit Uns"

Religion is a disease, no matter what sky pixie you pray to.

 

[JoeB131]

[
Atheism works for "you" because you live in a predominantly Christian based society.

Why would the Lord "crash" your world? If you don't want to believe, why would He force you to take notice? The Lord will let us make our own decisions; He expects us to live with the consequences of those decisions (unlike many in our society).

No,I live in a SECULAR society that has rules keeping your bullshit out of my life.

It appears that you do not "comprehend" the Old Testament. The Lord acted like a parent, disciplining children that were behaving badly.

Well, yeah, if you are applying to the "Andrea Yates" school of parenting, I guess.

... "It what I do doesn't hurt anyone, it's moral. If it does, without a good reason, it's immoral." ...
Is that anyone that you can tell? Or do you actually consider people that are not in the immediate picture that are hurt (but you can't see them, so it doesn't count)?

Pretty much. Frankly, if you aren't the person I'm dealing with, you don't have any skin in the game and it's none of your business.

A pedophile says the same thing: that child wanted to have sex with me (according to your statement, that would be "moral"). A person that is having sex with another person that is already in a relationship is not "moral" (even if that other person "wants to have sex" with you).

Children can't make an informed choice. So that argument is pure sophistry.

... "Someone attacks me and I beat them silly- Moral." ...
Yet many atheists want to tell Christians and Jews that they do not have this "right".

Really? Who? No, seriously, who is saying you don't have a right to defend yourself?

..."But anyway, it's a moral system that works just fine, really. No need for a sky pixie, no reason to go to a church and lets some hypocrite who can't deal with his homosexuality lecture to me."...
Why do we need a system of "laws" if the moral system of yours works "just fine"?

Most of us don't. Laws aren't for the law abiding.

..."No reason to try to excuse or rationalize 3000 year old barbaric myths where being gay was bad but offering your daughters up for gang rape was acceptable"
It was a lesson. The Bible is a great self-help tool. There are lessons in every single book in the Bible. You choose to pretend that you have wisdom that does not come from the Lord (Holy Spirit). That is your choice. Many of us, find the lessons in the Bible worthy of study, and choose to learn from them. We get that you have declared yourself your own diety. We know where that leads. We know the kind of life you will have. We know how lonely your future will be. We know the demons will come to tempt you and to possess you. We also know the Lord will be there if "you" choose to call Him. It is your choice.

As I hope I've pointed out after 600 posts or so on this subject, it wasn't a lesson. God, Lot, Lot's daughters all acted in an immoral way. The innocent children who were supposedly fried didn't, but they got fried anyway.

Poor Mrs. Lot did what any of us would do in that situation, and god turned her into a condiment. (The bible is full of these horrific punishments for petty offenses which gives God the moral sense of the Joker.)

 

[logical4u]

I was pointing out how "Christians are just as bad as muslims" is not true. No where in the Bible does it say to murder everyone that does not believe as you do [there are specific cases where the Lord used the Hebrews to punish those that systematically sinned against the Lord (as the Lord used other kingdoms to punish the Hebrews when they sinned against Him)]. It does say in the quran to convert, subjugate or kill everyone that does not believe as a muslim (and since the "faith" is fractured into hundreds of different sects, that encourages muslims to kill just about everyone that doesn't belong to their "community".

Religious overtones are not "religious instruction". I know it would fit your cowardly opinion (do not speak fact about islam, no matter what, justify, make excuses, compare to far less significant crimes, etc) on islam to compare it to Christians, but there is very, very little to compare. It is like saying a parent that disciplines their child is like a pedophile because they use intimidation to control behavior, therefore pedophiles should have the same access to children.

I missed that in the news. Where did a mormon have four other men hold a bound man while sawing off his head, chanting to the Lord? Is that a new mormon cult where mormons are killing all "non-believers"?

Maybe you should read up on the Mountain Meadows Massacre some time.

Look, guy, I suspect you probably don't actually even know any Muslims, your ignorance of them is so profound.

So, no Maybe Muslims did saw off a guys head, but Christians threw Jews into the gas chambers while wearing Belt Buckles that read "Gott Mit Uns"

Religion is a disease, no matter what sky pixie you pray to.

I have heard of that massacre. One in two centuries versus several a week, yep, that makes them just alike (not saying the Mountain Meadows Massacre was not completely evil). Just pointing out how you continue to pretend the system of evil, islam (not the spiritual beliefs, the Shariah that holds people hostage to the most ruthless, the "spiritual" leader), where the people that are being oppressed will be murdered if they disagree with what the "spiritual" leader says, where most people do not read the quran and must rely on others interpretations (even if they did read it and see how false it was, based on Biblical time lines, they would not be able to say anything for fear of death of their loved ones or themselves). How brave of you to mock the Lord while cowering from Allah and islam. Your posts imply that you believe islam to have more integrity that Christianity, yet, you choose to live in a Christian majority society. Why do you think you have not "chosen" to move to a muslim society and all that entails?

What did I say that was ignorant about muslims? Can you give "facts"/evidence that I am wrong? I don't "know" any drug "addicts" either. Can't say I want to invest in a relationship with a person that could justify murdering me for some false high (druggies would do it for money to buy drugs for a temporary high, and muslims could do it for a key to Allah and "virgins").

"Gott Mit Uns" was a tool to manipulate Eastern Europe. It was not the predominate reason for Hitler's army. Hitler was into the Lord about as much as Jim Jones or Charles Manson (both of them used references to the Lord to "brainwash" people also, and were probably big fans of Hitler's, not so much fans of the Lord) was. Islam declares it is about the truth, but when they speak about political and religious matters, the truth is rarely stated (except when the Palestinians declare they want EVERY Jew murdered, and then people like you say, yeah, that's okay because about one thousand years ago, some Christians made some stupid moves too). One of the "lessons learned" about WWII, was that everyone swore that "it will NEVER happen again". Open your eyes, it is happening again, and the atheists are willing dupes to the persecution of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and Christians by muslims world-wide. I have no idea why you can't see that when islam destroys one nationality, race, religious group, it will not move on to the next weakest group, until it has all peoples oppressed. But, by all means, keep up your selective bashing of "religion", while ignoring the true threat to liberty and freedom (hint: it is not what people believe in their hearts).

 

[logical4u]

[
Atheism works for "you" because you live in a predominantly Christian based society.

Why would the Lord "crash" your world? If you don't want to believe, why would He force you to take notice? The Lord will let us make our own decisions; He expects us to live with the consequences of those decisions (unlike many in our society).

No,I live in a SECULAR society that has rules keeping your bullshit out of my life.

It appears that you do not "comprehend" the Old Testament. The Lord acted like a parent, disciplining children that were behaving badly.

Well, yeah, if you are applying to the "Andrea Yates" school of parenting, I guess.



Pretty much. Frankly, if you aren't the person I'm dealing with, you don't have any skin in the game and it's none of your business.




Children can't make an informed choice. So that argument is pure sophistry.



Really? Who? No, seriously, who is saying you don't have a right to defend yourself?

..."But anyway, it's a moral system that works just fine, really. No need for a sky pixie, no reason to go to a church and lets some hypocrite who can't deal with his homosexuality lecture to me."...
Why do we need a system of "laws" if the moral system of yours works "just fine"?

Most of us don't. Laws aren't for the law abiding.

..."No reason to try to excuse or rationalize 3000 year old barbaric myths where being gay was bad but offering your daughters up for gang rape was acceptable"
It was a lesson. The Bible is a great self-help tool. There are lessons in every single book in the Bible. You choose to pretend that you have wisdom that does not come from the Lord (Holy Spirit). That is your choice. Many of us, find the lessons in the Bible worthy of study, and choose to learn from them. We get that you have declared yourself your own diety. We know where that leads. We know the kind of life you will have. We know how lonely your future will be. We know the demons will come to tempt you and to possess you. We also know the Lord will be there if "you" choose to call Him. It is your choice.

As I hope I've pointed out after 600 posts or so on this subject, it wasn't a lesson. God, Lot, Lot's daughters all acted in an immoral way. The innocent children who were supposedly fried didn't, but they got fried anyway.

Poor Mrs. Lot did what any of us would do in that situation, and god turned her into a condiment. (The bible is full of these horrific punishments for petty offenses which gives God the moral sense of the Joker.)

What percentage of the USA claims to be "Christian"? I know it is over 70%; it is probably over 89%. And you want to declare society "secular"? Let's compare: if a society has a muslim population over 50%, is it "secular"? We do not have enforced religion, but our culture, our laws are Judeo/Christian based. There are some communist based societies where Christianity is not welcomed by the gov't, but for some reason, those societies don't seem to have the liberty or the standard of living the Christian based societies have, just sayin'.

If you "hurt" a person, that action can affect their family, their friends, and a possible spouse. That is a selfish, arrogant attitude. The police records are full of reprecussions for just that attitude.

Since laws are for the law-abiding, and your "morals" work just fine for you (and most people that think similar to you), if the law is struck, why do your "morals" change, and go right up to the next law? Example: when prohibition was repealed, why did those that were law-abiding by not drinking, start drinking (if it was based on their own morals)?

Lot's daughters were immoral when they tricked their father. Lot was wrong (to us) when he offered his daughters in the "visitors" place. The Bible is full of the mistakes that people make. In some instances, they overcome those mistakes, in other instances, it ruins them. For Lot's wife, none of us were there. We do not know what happend. You are not supposed to look at an arc flash (it can blind you). If "fire and brimstone" (including lightening) were there and the lightning was like electrical arcs, she could have been blinded (or even struck by lightening). As everyone else was running for their lives, they may not have noticed her, until it was too late. If the heat was intense, she could have been dehydrated until she was ready to crumble. "Salt" was probably, the closest explanation they had.

 

[sfcalifornia]

The 30 years war: wikkopedia says ..... " disputes over the internal politics and balance of power within the Empire played a significant part" ......

The "conquest" of the Americas was not a religious war. It was people searching for liberty and freedom from ridgid laws over the denomination of Christianity one was "forced" to join.

Australian Aborigines: pretty much the same as the Native Americans in the west. Once the scammers figured out how to play the system (get "grants" from the gov't), there was no need to be considerate to the inhabitants of the land. (this is not religion, it is greed, pure and simple: part of that corruption that you want us all to embrace).

Albigisenian Crusade: can't find a mention of this one

At least you hinted at the cause of the Inquistion: islam

It does not look good for your "correction" on Christian wars.

Lets see what you can show for muslim wars????? Or is that where your fortitude, fails?

Albigensian Crusade- Fought in France during the 13th Century. A "heretical" religion called Catharism showed up which mixed Christianity and Manichism. Due to the corruption of the Catholic Church at that time, lots of people signed up.

During the seige of the town of Beziers, the Crusaders asked the Papal Legate, "How do we tell a good Christian from a Heretic." and he replied, "Kill them all, for God knows his own!" (Sometimes translated as "Kill them all, let God sort them out!")

The rest of your point is that we can ignore the religious overtones of these murders and slaughters because, hey, there were political motives as well. (The same can be said of the Islamic Conquests).

So if Mitt Romney wins, you'll support him killing everyone who doesn't sign up for Mormonism, right?

I was pointing out how "Christians are just as bad as muslims" is not true. No where in the Bible does it say to murder everyone that does not believe as you do [there are specific cases where the Lord used the Hebrews to punish those that systematically sinned against the Lord (as the Lord used other kingdoms to punish the Hebrews when they sinned against Him)]. It does say in the quran to convert, subjugate or kill everyone that does not believe as a muslim (and since the "faith" is fractured into hundreds of different sects, that encourages muslims to kill just about everyone that doesn't belong to their "community".

Religious overtones are not "religious instruction". I know it would fit your cowardly opinion (do not speak fact about islam, no matter what, justify, make excuses, compare to far less significant crimes, etc) on islam to compare it to Christians, but there is very, very little to compare. It is like saying a parent that disciplines their child is like a pedophile because they use intimidation to control behavior, therefore pedophiles should have the same access to children.

I missed that in the news. Where did a mormon have four other men hold a bound man while sawing off his head, chanting to the Lord? Is that a new mormon cult where mormons are killing all "non-believers"?

Please..... Religious groups have been torturing and killing each other for millenia. Heinous acts of violence weren't reserved just for the Muslims and still aren't today whether it's written in any book or not.

 

[JoeB131]

[I have heard of that massacre. One in two centuries versus several a week, yep, that makes them just alike (not saying the Mountain Meadows Massacre was not completely evil). Just pointing out how you continue to pretend the system of evil, islam (not the spiritual beliefs, the Shariah that holds people hostage to the most ruthless, the "spiritual" leader), where the people that are being oppressed will be murdered if they disagree with what the "spiritual" leader says, where most people do not read the quran and must rely on others interpretations (even if they did read it and see how false it was, based on Biblical time lines, they would not be able to say anything for fear of death of their loved ones or themselves). How brave of you to mock the Lord while cowering from Allah and islam. Your posts imply that you believe islam to have more integrity that Christianity, yet, you choose to live in a Christian majority society. Why do you think you have not "chosen" to move to a muslim society and all that entails?

I consider both religions equally bad, equally capable of evil. All spiritual systems are based on beleiving in magic sky men whose will must be obeyed, no matter how ridiculous. The only reason Christian society isn't as "savage" as Islamic is because we are well-fed, comfortable, and most so-called Christians are truly ignorant of the messed up stuff that is in their bible.

As to why I choose to live here...

1) English is my language and American is my nationality.
2) This is a secular society, not a Christian one.

What did I say that was ignorant about muslims? Can you give "facts"/evidence that I am wrong? I don't "know" any drug "addicts" either. Can't say I want to invest in a relationship with a person that could justify murdering me for some false high (druggies would do it for money to buy drugs for a temporary high, and muslims could do it for a key to Allah and "virgins").

Your comment about "virgins" shows your ignorance. Do some research.

"Gott Mit Uns" was a tool to manipulate Eastern Europe. It was not the predominate reason for Hitler's army. Hitler was into the Lord about as much as Jim Jones or Charles Manson (both of them used references to the Lord to "brainwash" people also, and were probably big fans of Hitler's, not so much fans of the Lord) was. Islam declares it is about the truth, but when they speak about political and religious matters, the truth is rarely stated (except when the Palestinians declare they want EVERY Jew murdered, and then people like you say, yeah, that's okay because about one thousand years ago, some Christians made some stupid moves too). One of the "lessons learned" about WWII, was that everyone swore that "it will NEVER happen again". Open your eyes, it is happening again, and the atheists are willing dupes to the persecution of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and Christians by muslims world-wide. I have no idea why you can't see that when islam destroys one nationality, race, religious group, it will not move on to the next weakest group, until it has all peoples oppressed. But, by all means, keep up your selective bashing of "religion", while ignoring the true threat to liberty and freedom (hint: it is not what people believe in their hearts).

You are guilty of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy here. Hitler couldn't have been a Christian because he engaged in behavior you didn't like.

But look, idiot, the only reason why we have a problem with Islam is because we've invaded their countries, they haven't invaded ours in decades. They had to drive the Europeans out in the early part of this century, and now we support awful governments to keep our appetite for oil flowing.

As for the Israelis- they stole their land. They want it back. Why is this my problem again?

 

[JoeB131]

What percentage of the USA claims to be "Christian"? I know it is over 70%; it is probably over 89%. And you want to declare society "secular"? Let's compare: if a society has a muslim population over 50%, is it "secular"? We do not have enforced religion, but our culture, our laws are Judeo/Christian based. There are some communist based societies where Christianity is not welcomed by the gov't, but for some reason, those societies don't seem to have the liberty or the standard of living the Christian based societies have, just sayin'.

It doesn't matter what % is Christian. A lot of Christians don't consider other sects to be "true" Christians. Now, while they are no longer murdering each other over Transubstatiation or anything like that, the fact is, everyone agreed that no one's flavor of religion was going to dominate the country. That's why we are a secular nation, thank the Non-existant God.

If you "hurt" a person, that action can affect their family, their friends, and a possible spouse. That is a selfish, arrogant attitude. The police records are full of reprecussions for just that attitude.

You're off in the weeds, spanky. I already said that if my actions hurt people, they are immoral.

Since laws are for the law-abiding, and your "morals" work just fine for you (and most people that think similar to you), if the law is struck, why do your "morals" change, and go right up to the next law? Example: when prohibition was repealed, why did those that were law-abiding by not drinking, start drinking (if it was based on their own morals)?

Because it was a stupid law that was passed under false pretenses. The problem was, when all those people voted for prohibtion, it was sold as an anti-German measure during WWI. When people realized the implications of the stupidity, they ignored it, completely. It was only because the stupidity was enshrined as a constitutional amendment did it take so long to repeal.

Lot's daughters were immoral when they tricked their father. Lot was wrong (to us) when he offered his daughters in the "visitors" place. The Bible is full of the mistakes that people make. In some instances, they overcome those mistakes, in other instances, it ruins them. For Lot's wife, none of us were there. We do not know what happend. You are not supposed to look at an arc flash (it can blind you). If "fire and brimstone" (including lightening) were there and the lightning was like electrical arcs, she could have been blinded (or even struck by lightening). As everyone else was running for their lives, they may not have noticed her, until it was too late. If the heat was intense, she could have been dehydrated until she was ready to crumble. "Salt" was probably, the closest explanation they had.

Or it was a myth to explain why there were abadoned cities in the middle of salt flats.

But to the point, I have a little more sympathy for Lot's daughters than I have for Lot. Lot should have known better, he was the grownup there. Not that I think any of them actually existed.

I think this just shows the mean-spirited mythology of mean-spirited people. Too bad we couldn't have picked a better mythology to make up the "back story" of Christianity.

 

[logical4u]

Albigensian Crusade- Fought in France during the 13th Century. A "heretical" religion called Catharism showed up which mixed Christianity and Manichism. Due to the corruption of the Catholic Church at that time, lots of people signed up.

During the seige of the town of Beziers, the Crusaders asked the Papal Legate, "How do we tell a good Christian from a Heretic." and he replied, "Kill them all, for God knows his own!" (Sometimes translated as "Kill them all, let God sort them out!")

The rest of your point is that we can ignore the religious overtones of these murders and slaughters because, hey, there were political motives as well. (The same can be said of the Islamic Conquests).

So if Mitt Romney wins, you'll support him killing everyone who doesn't sign up for Mormonism, right?

I was pointing out how "Christians are just as bad as muslims" is not true. No where in the Bible does it say to murder everyone that does not believe as you do [there are specific cases where the Lord used the Hebrews to punish those that systematically sinned against the Lord (as the Lord used other kingdoms to punish the Hebrews when they sinned against Him)]. It does say in the quran to convert, subjugate or kill everyone that does not believe as a muslim (and since the "faith" is fractured into hundreds of different sects, that encourages muslims to kill just about everyone that doesn't belong to their "community".

Religious overtones are not "religious instruction". I know it would fit your cowardly opinion (do not speak fact about islam, no matter what, justify, make excuses, compare to far less significant crimes, etc) on islam to compare it to Christians, but there is very, very little to compare. It is like saying a parent that disciplines their child is like a pedophile because they use intimidation to control behavior, therefore pedophiles should have the same access to children.

I missed that in the news. Where did a mormon have four other men hold a bound man while sawing off his head, chanting to the Lord? Is that a new mormon cult where mormons are killing all "non-believers"?

Please..... Religious groups have been torturing and killing each other for millenia. Heinous acts of violence weren't reserved just for the Muslims and still aren't today whether it's written in any book or not.

There is only "one" religion today that regularly murders "non-believers". The other religous groups were for more political or economical gains than for religion. But ignore that elephant in the room if you want to, wait until it sits on you.

 

[logical4u]

[I have heard of that massacre. One in two centuries versus several a week, yep, that makes them just alike (not saying the Mountain Meadows Massacre was not completely evil). Just pointing out how you continue to pretend the system of evil, islam (not the spiritual beliefs, the Shariah that holds people hostage to the most ruthless, the "spiritual" leader), where the people that are being oppressed will be murdered if they disagree with what the "spiritual" leader says, where most people do not read the quran and must rely on others interpretations (even if they did read it and see how false it was, based on Biblical time lines, they would not be able to say anything for fear of death of their loved ones or themselves). How brave of you to mock the Lord while cowering from Allah and islam. Your posts imply that you believe islam to have more integrity that Christianity, yet, you choose to live in a Christian majority society. Why do you think you have not "chosen" to move to a muslim society and all that entails?

I consider both religions equally bad, equally capable of evil. All spiritual systems are based on beleiving in magic sky men whose will must be obeyed, no matter how ridiculous. The only reason Christian society isn't as "savage" as Islamic is because we are well-fed, comfortable, and most so-called Christians are truly ignorant of the messed up stuff that is in their bible.

As to why I choose to live here...

1) English is my language and American is my nationality.
2) This is a secular society, not a Christian one.

What did I say that was ignorant about muslims? Can you give "facts"/evidence that I am wrong? I don't "know" any drug "addicts" either. Can't say I want to invest in a relationship with a person that could justify murdering me for some false high (druggies would do it for money to buy drugs for a temporary high, and muslims could do it for a key to Allah and "virgins").

Your comment about "virgins" shows your ignorance. Do some research.

"Gott Mit Uns" was a tool to manipulate Eastern Europe. It was not the predominate reason for Hitler's army. Hitler was into the Lord about as much as Jim Jones or Charles Manson (both of them used references to the Lord to "brainwash" people also, and were probably big fans of Hitler's, not so much fans of the Lord) was. Islam declares it is about the truth, but when they speak about political and religious matters, the truth is rarely stated (except when the Palestinians declare they want EVERY Jew murdered, and then people like you say, yeah, that's okay because about one thousand years ago, some Christians made some stupid moves too). One of the "lessons learned" about WWII, was that everyone swore that "it will NEVER happen again". Open your eyes, it is happening again, and the atheists are willing dupes to the persecution of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and Christians by muslims world-wide. I have no idea why you can't see that when islam destroys one nationality, race, religious group, it will not move on to the next weakest group, until it has all peoples oppressed. But, by all means, keep up your selective bashing of "religion", while ignoring the true threat to liberty and freedom (hint: it is not what people believe in their hearts).

You are guilty of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy here. Hitler couldn't have been a Christian because he engaged in behavior you didn't like.

But look, idiot, the only reason why we have a problem with Islam is because we've invaded their countries, they haven't invaded ours in decades. They had to drive the Europeans out in the early part of this century, and now we support awful governments to keep our appetite for oil flowing.

As for the Israelis- they stole their land. They want it back. Why is this my problem again?

Got it: parents are just as bad as pedophiles.
Can you show me where Hitler wrote prayers (like many of the founders of this nation)?
Can you show me where Hitler attended church? Can you name Hitler's spritual leader? Can you show me Hitler's worn Bible?

Islam has been a home of terrorists since its inception. It has invaded other countries and peoples to convert, murder or subjugate for over 1400 years (including Israel). Are Navy was formed to stop islamic pirates over 200 years ago. But by all means, sing kumbaya with them.

 

[logical4u]

What percentage of the USA claims to be "Christian"? I know it is over 70%; it is probably over 89%. And you want to declare society "secular"? Let's compare: if a society has a muslim population over 50%, is it "secular"? We do not have enforced religion, but our culture, our laws are Judeo/Christian based. There are some communist based societies where Christianity is not welcomed by the gov't, but for some reason, those societies don't seem to have the liberty or the standard of living the Christian based societies have, just sayin'.

It doesn't matter what % is Christian. A lot of Christians don't consider other sects to be "true" Christians. Now, while they are no longer murdering each other over Transubstatiation or anything like that, the fact is, everyone agreed that no one's flavor of religion was going to dominate the country. That's why we are a secular nation, thank the Non-existant God.

If you "hurt" a person, that action can affect their family, their friends, and a possible spouse. That is a selfish, arrogant attitude. The police records are full of reprecussions for just that attitude.

You're off in the weeds, spanky. I already said that if my actions hurt people, they are immoral.

Since laws are for the law-abiding, and your "morals" work just fine for you (and most people that think similar to you), if the law is struck, why do your "morals" change, and go right up to the next law? Example: when prohibition was repealed, why did those that were law-abiding by not drinking, start drinking (if it was based on their own morals)?

Because it was a stupid law that was passed under false pretenses. The problem was, when all those people voted for prohibtion, it was sold as an anti-German measure during WWI. When people realized the implications of the stupidity, they ignored it, completely. It was only because the stupidity was enshrined as a constitutional amendment did it take so long to repeal.

Lot's daughters were immoral when they tricked their father. Lot was wrong (to us) when he offered his daughters in the "visitors" place. The Bible is full of the mistakes that people make. In some instances, they overcome those mistakes, in other instances, it ruins them. For Lot's wife, none of us were there. We do not know what happend. You are not supposed to look at an arc flash (it can blind you). If "fire and brimstone" (including lightening) were there and the lightning was like electrical arcs, she could have been blinded (or even struck by lightening). As everyone else was running for their lives, they may not have noticed her, until it was too late. If the heat was intense, she could have been dehydrated until she was ready to crumble. "Salt" was probably, the closest explanation they had.

Or it was a myth to explain why there were abadoned cities in the middle of salt flats.

But to the point, I have a little more sympathy for Lot's daughters than I have for Lot. Lot should have known better, he was the grownup there. Not that I think any of them actually existed.

I think this just shows the mean-spirited mythology of mean-spirited people. Too bad we couldn't have picked a better mythology to make up the "back story" of Christianity.

Nice avoid for the: is it a muslim nation question.
Double talk on the moral issues. One post: it is between the two of you, no one else Next post: well of course that was what I meant

Yes, laws are all "stupid" to people that do not want to obey them. Maybe all people don't have the same "morals", and the Lord gave them ones that they could live by, first written in stone, and then onto men's hearts (that internal guide you tout). Prohibition was just an especially obvious example.

Maybe the lesson of Lot and his daughters was that you should not get "shit-faced" even with people you think you can trust. But I do enjoy how people that are so open to every kind of evil are so judgemental of the weak in the Bible.

 

[The Professor]

The 30 years war: wikkopedia says ..... " disputes over the internal politics and balance of power within the Empire played a significant part" ......

The "conquest" of the Americas was not a religious war. It was people searching for liberty and freedom from ridgid laws over the denomination of Christianity one was "forced" to join.

Australian Aborigines: pretty much the same as the Native Americans in the west. Once the scammers figured out how to play the system (get "grants" from the gov't), there was no need to be considerate to the inhabitants of the land. (this is not religion, it is greed, pure and simple: part of that corruption that you want us all to embrace).

Albigisenian Crusade: can't find a mention of this one

At least you hinted at the cause of the Inquistion: islam

It does not look good for your "correction" on Christian wars.

Lets see what you can show for muslim wars????? Or is that where your fortitude, fails?

Albigensian Crusade- Fought in France during the 13th Century. A "heretical" religion called Catharism showed up which mixed Christianity and Manichism. Due to the corruption of the Catholic Church at that time, lots of people signed up.

During the seige of the town of Beziers, the Crusaders asked the Papal Legate, "How do we tell a good Christian from a Heretic." and he replied, "Kill them all, for God knows his own!" (Sometimes translated as "Kill them all, let God sort them out!")

Albigensian Crusade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rest of your point is that we can ignore the religious overtones of these murders and slaughters because, hey, there were political motives as well. (The same can be said of the Islamic Conquests).

So if Mitt Romney wins, you'll support him killing everyone who doesn't sign up for Mormonism, right?

I was pointing out how "Christians are just as bad as muslims" is not true. No where in the Bible does it say to murder everyone that does not believe as you do [there are specific cases where the Lord used the Hebrews to punish those that systematically sinned against the Lord (as the Lord used other kingdoms to punish the Hebrews when they sinned against Him)]. It does say in the quran to convert, subjugate or kill everyone that does not believe as a muslim (and since the "faith" is fractured into hundreds of different sects, that encourages muslims to kill just about everyone that doesn't belong to their "community".

Religious overtones are not "religious instruction". I know it would fit your cowardly opinion (do not speak fact about islam, no matter what, justify, make excuses, compare to far less significant crimes, etc) on islam to compare it to Christians, but there is very, very little to compare. It is like saying a parent that disciplines their child is like a pedophile because they use intimidation to control behavior, therefore pedophiles should have the same access to children.

I missed that in the news. Where did a mormon have four other men hold a bound man while sawing off his head, chanting to the Lord? Is that a new mormon cult where mormons are killing all "non-believers"?

You are correct that the Qur'an advises Muslims to kill non-believers (infidels). However, you should be aware that the Biblical God also requires the killing of infidels. The only difference between the two "holy books" is the definition of non-believers or infidels. The Qur'an describes infidels as those who do not believe in the God described in the Qur'an and the KJV describes infidels as those who do not believe in the God as described in the Old Testament. Here is what the Bible says:

“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage” (Deuteronomy 13:6-10, KJV).

 

[The Professor]

I love it when people try to disprove God and use the Bible even when they have no clue what the Bible says.

I have never known anyone who quoted the Bible to disprove God. Such an effort would be illogical in that God is not a book and the book is not God. There is an obvious difference between believing in the Bible and believing in God. I number myself among those who believe in God but who will not accept that the Bible is the Word of God. Christians who believe the Bible is the complete, inspired and inerrant Word of God accept that God possesses all those attributes attributed to Him within the pages of the Book. Those who will not accept that God really said and did the things detailed in the Bible are not atheists; rather, they are merely rejecting the Bible as a divine authority.

Your assumption that those who challenge the Bible do not believe in God is without merit. There are billions of people in the world (including Muslims) who believe in God but who reject the Bible. When Christians criticize the Qur'an, they are obviously not trying to disprove God; rather, they are trying to prove that God did not say or do those things the Qur'an claims He did. The same thing applies to those who criticize the Bible.

 

[Foxfyre]

I love it when people try to disprove God and use the Bible even when they have no clue what the Bible says.

I have never known anyone who quoted the Bible to disprove God. Such an effort would be illogical in that God is not a book and the book is not God. There is an obvious difference between believing in the Bible and believing in God. I number myself among those who believe in God but who will not accept that the Bible is the Word of God. Christians who believe the Bible is the complete, inspired and inerrant Word of God accept that God possesses all those attributes attributed to Him within the pages of the Book. Those who will not accept that God really said and did the things detailed in the Bible are not atheists; rather, they are merely rejecting the Bible as a divine authority.

Your assumption that those who challenge the Bible do not believe in God is without merit. There are billions of people in the world (including Muslims) who believe in God but who reject the Bible. When Christians criticize the Qur'an, they are obviously not trying to disprove God; rather, they are trying to prove that God did not say or do those things the Qur'an claims He did. The same thing applies to those who criticize the Bible.

I agree with most of this except that I think the Bible contains the Word of God, was inspired by God, and also includes a lot of human testimony, perceptions, commentary, and impressions of God. It takes a lifetime of careful and thoughtful Bible study to separate out what is history, what is prophecy, what is poetry, what is wisdom literature, what is allegory, what is symbolism, etc. and even then all scholars are not going to agree 100%. Too many people have been blessed through the texts for me to believe that God has had no part in them.

However, it is instructive when some would use a story like Sodom and Gomorrah as PROOF that belief in God is either utter nonsense or He is an extremely immoral and hateful God, while others point to the story as the unerring Word of God and testimony to a very different concept. And strong advocates of both positions are not in the least interested in other perspective that give us interesting insights into an ancient culture and people and how they viewed their world.

However, the God I know is a very big God and quite capable of sorting it all out and using it all to whatever purpose. I've always thought that those who think they have God all figured out and know exactly what He has said and what He wants etc. etc. etc. are going to be sooooo surprised when they find out the truth of it all later on. I can't believe that we mortals are capable of understanding more than a tiny revealed fraction of all that God is.

And one of my personal observations is that God is still tugging at the hearts of non believers too, or they wouldn't be so consistently drawn to threads like this. (Just my opinion of course.)

 

[JoeB131]

Got it: parents are just as bad as pedophiles.
Can you show me where Hitler wrote prayers (like many of the founders of this nation)?
Can you show me where Hitler attended church? Can you name Hitler's spritual leader? Can you show me Hitler's worn Bible?

Islam has been a home of terrorists since its inception. It has invaded other countries and peoples to convert, murder or subjugate for over 1400 years (including Israel). Are Navy was formed to stop islamic pirates over 200 years ago. But by all means, sing kumbaya with them.

Hitler in front of a Church...

As far as Islam's intolerance, the fact is, Jews did better in Islamic countries than they did Christian ones, up until the inception of Israel. Jews lived a pretty good life in Moorish Spain, but once the Catholics took over, it was pretty much the inquisition for them.

We keep sticking our hands in the hornet's nest, wondering why we get stung.

 

[JoeB131]

Nice avoid for the: is it a muslim nation question.
Double talk on the moral issues. One post: it is between the two of you, no one else Next post: well of course that was what I meant

Totally off in the weeds, now....

Yes, laws are all "stupid" to people that do not want to obey them. Maybe all people don't have the same "morals", and the Lord gave them ones that they could live by, first written in stone, and then onto men's hearts (that internal guide you tout). Prohibition was just an especially obvious example.

I can't take the morals of a God seriously who can't condemn- in fact condones- slavery and genocide, but goes all apeshit about gay sex and eating shrimp...

Maybe the lesson of Lot and his daughters was that you should not get "shit-faced" even with people you think you can trust. But I do enjoy how people that are so open to every kind of evil are so judgemental of the weak in the Bible.

The lesson is that the God of the Bible is an asshole, not worthy of anyone's worship. Kill the babies, save the daughter pimping and raping Lot, because he was "righteous". (Except for the time he offered his daughters up for gang rape and had sex with them himself.)

 

[logical4u]

Albigensian Crusade- Fought in France during the 13th Century. A "heretical" religion called Catharism showed up which mixed Christianity and Manichism. Due to the corruption of the Catholic Church at that time, lots of people signed up.

During the seige of the town of Beziers, the Crusaders asked the Papal Legate, "How do we tell a good Christian from a Heretic." and he replied, "Kill them all, for God knows his own!" (Sometimes translated as "Kill them all, let God sort them out!")

Albigensian Crusade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rest of your point is that we can ignore the religious overtones of these murders and slaughters because, hey, there were political motives as well. (The same can be said of the Islamic Conquests).

So if Mitt Romney wins, you'll support him killing everyone who doesn't sign up for Mormonism, right?

I was pointing out how "Christians are just as bad as muslims" is not true. No where in the Bible does it say to murder everyone that does not believe as you do [there are specific cases where the Lord used the Hebrews to punish those that systematically sinned against the Lord (as the Lord used other kingdoms to punish the Hebrews when they sinned against Him)]. It does say in the quran to convert, subjugate or kill everyone that does not believe as a muslim (and since the "faith" is fractured into hundreds of different sects, that encourages muslims to kill just about everyone that doesn't belong to their "community".

Religious overtones are not "religious instruction". I know it would fit your cowardly opinion (do not speak fact about islam, no matter what, justify, make excuses, compare to far less significant crimes, etc) on islam to compare it to Christians, but there is very, very little to compare. It is like saying a parent that disciplines their child is like a pedophile because they use intimidation to control behavior, therefore pedophiles should have the same access to children.

I missed that in the news. Where did a mormon have four other men hold a bound man while sawing off his head, chanting to the Lord? Is that a new mormon cult where mormons are killing all "non-believers"?

You are correct that the Qur'an advises Muslims to kill non-believers (infidels). However, you should be aware that the Biblical God also requires the killing of infidels. The only difference between the two "holy books" is the definition of non-believers or infidels. The Qur'an describes infidels as those who do not believe in the God described in the Qur'an and the KJV describes infidels as those who do not believe in the God as described in the Old Testament. Here is what the Bible says:

“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage” (Deuteronomy 13:6-10, KJV).

Can you quote the "New" Testament where it tells people to "kill" non-believers.
The quote you gave was for people that were sinning against the Lord and against man. They were into child sacrifice (to the god Mollech), and evil. The Lord used the "freed" slaves of Hebrew blood to wipe out their nation's (not search the earth for those of that blood, that did not follow the nation's ways, but those that were sinning); it was not genocide. It was directed at kingdoms that were too terrible to allow to continue their ways (and the Lord would know, He did cleanse the earth of evil once before).
.... "because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage" ....
The Lord had made a covenant with the ancestors of these people (Abraham & Jacob). He was protecting them from harm. Any that embrace sin should pay attention to this lesson....

 

[logical4u]

Got it: parents are just as bad as pedophiles.
Can you show me where Hitler wrote prayers (like many of the founders of this nation)?
Can you show me where Hitler attended church? Can you name Hitler's spritual leader? Can you show me Hitler's worn Bible?

Islam has been a home of terrorists since its inception. It has invaded other countries and peoples to convert, murder or subjugate for over 1400 years (including Israel). Are Navy was formed to stop islamic pirates over 200 years ago. But by all means, sing kumbaya with them.

Hitler in front of a Church...

As far as Islam's intolerance, the fact is, Jews did better in Islamic countries than they did Christian ones, up until the inception of Israel. Jews lived a pretty good life in Moorish Spain, but once the Catholics took over, it was pretty much the inquisition for them.

We keep sticking our hands in the hornet's nest, wondering why we get stung.

Should I take a picture of a muslim in front of the temple mount and declare them "Jewish". You remind me of my brother that would tell a fantastic story, and then ask you if you wanted to see a "prop" (an item described in the story) so you would believe him. Didn't answer any of those questions demonstrating Hitler's Christianity, though.

How are Jews doing in islamic countries today?
Jews did well where ever they were (the Bible says that the places they dwell will be blessed because of them if they are treated well, or cursed if they are not treated well), until corruption moved into the government. Once that happened, the government that had paid the Jews, fairly, for work perfomed, wanted the money back. The corrupt government would use violence to get it.
I am really enjoying your jumping around 1400 years of islamic insanity to try to defend that "religion of peace". Still won't talk about the present threat or violence being done daily by the "faithful" of islam. Seriously, the "moors". If the moors were so great, why did the people absolutely reject them, and as soon as they had the means, booted them out of Europe? If they converted to Christianity, they were allowed to stay (why do you think that was done?).