Sodom and Gomorrah

[Foxfyre]

Which makes one wonder what prompts the compulsion in the anti-religious to attempt to destroy the faith of people who draw comfort and encouragement from it? Most especially why it mostly those who work so hard at misinterpreting the Scriptures who do that. Is Atheism the natural path to disregard or lack of concern for others? Why is that do you think?

However, that would probably explain why it is so rarely the Atheists but is mostlly those 'delusional' religious people who are manning the thrift shops, running the soup kitchens, volunteering at homeless shelters, giving the most from their personal wealth to benefit others, and ministering to some of the world's most desperate and impoverished people.

I know a lot of atheists who give their time to worthy causes, expecting nothing in return. I know I do. And they do it because it's the right thing to do, not because they expect an extra good seat in Heaven.

As to why I tear things down, it because so much evil in history has been justified by religion. Take this story in particular. It's the go-to story for Funditards who want to justify their homophobia. They even derived a word for it. "Sodomy". You don't want to be a "Sodomite" because we all saw what God did to them. They wanted to have butt sex with the angels, and God smote them.

Except most of the leave out the parts which don't show Lot in such a good light or make the story a bit more questionable. Sodomites...brimstone....salt.

Nevertheless, I don't see the Atheists establishing and putting in the time to keep those thrift shop, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, and ministries to some of the world's most desperate, poorest, down and out people. I do see Christians and Jews, even some of the most 'fundie' doing that, some devoting their life's work to that, and no amount of hostile prejudice on your part can erase that. And you don't know that they do it to 'earn their way to heaven' or for any other reward. It is unkind of you to suggest that.

Yes, much evil has been done in the name of religion. So has much evil been done in the name of Atheism--I'll name Lenin, Stalin, Mao just for a few examples. So don't try to claim that your Atheism is somehow more virtuous or righteous than Christianity, Judaism, or many other religions to me. That is a straw man deluxe and won't fly in the cold rational light of reality.

And as for your view of the Biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah, it is obvious you haven't read a thing that many of us have tried to explain to you and/or give you a more accurate interpretation of the text. Your mind seems to be made up and you seem to be blinded by your intense prejudice and even hatred of any concept of faith and nothing will count but your own distorted interpretation. Otherwise you wouldn't be so eager to ridicule, judge, and scorn those of faith who have posted on your thread.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Religious are not better people than atheists, FF. They aren't organized for soup kitchens, like the "holier than thou" are. That doesn't mean they don't perform charitable acts. It doesn't mean YOU are a better person than they are because you belong to a church that does charitable works.

Some religous are so full of pride that any charitable acts they perform are weighed down by that sin. So busy are they, claiming they are so much better than everyone else. Motivation is everything. Some religious are motivated by altruism and some by pride. These are human qualities. We're all human, even the ones you'd like to demonize.

Don't respond to my posts, FF. You don't stand a chance of debating me freely.

 

[Ropey]

For those who believe.

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a story of our personal choice given to us after the eating of the tree of knowledge and the extraordinary causal effects of our choices when we group those choices.

Our voices are louder when we pray together as the L-rd has told us.

Thus, they are also louder when we perform acts that are abhorrent to our L-rd and do so in groups. The story is given as an admonition to acts that are distasteful to the L-rd.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The story of Sodom and Gommorah has been misused. Have you ever walked past a person who was looking for a handout and totally ignored them? I hate to say it, but I know I have. If you have too, then, in a way, we are both guilty of the sin of Sodom. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, as has been taught: it was inhospitality.

Inhospitality is what you do to me, FF. Make me unwelcome to debate you. It is unkindness to strangers.

 

[MarcATL]

I'm sorry, but I don't think that one is sincerely "working something out" when one is blatantly, openly and pridefully rejecting and mocking God. That is to say that the "working out" is between the individual and God.

I believe JoeB has even mocked the existence of God.

I'm pretty sure he would concur with what I just said, so that is not judgement, it's merely giving an accurate account.

As to the "pile on" statement, keep in mind Joe started the thread, and note all the posters, including myself, that have attempted to give a sincere and true response to his initial questions.

Be blessed.

P.S.: JoeB, correct me if my understanding posted above is incorrect.

I think the thing is, I don't see "Yahweh" as God any more than I see "Zeus" as God. Now, perhaps that's my own fault in not saying Yahweh and using "God" as shorthand.

God as defined by religionists is completely illogical. A being with a 14 billion year plan to create a universe would not concentrate on one individual or just torturing one luckless tribe that was dumb enough to start worshipping him. I find it improbable that an omnipotent, omniscient and eternal being is really up there worried about what church one goes to or what kind of sex one is having. That to me is laughable.

I mean, think about this. God..sorry, Yahweh... is only going to save those who believe in Jesus, right? Well that means of the 7 billion people on the planet, the 5 million non-Christians are going to hell, even if they are otherwise perfectly nice people.

That also means that of the 2 billion who are lucky enough to be Christians, only the ones who picked the right Church get in. Well, which one is the right Church? The Catholics? The Orthodox? The Lutherans... Heck, let's go all out crazy here and say the Mormons. Maybe God just has that bizarre a sense of humor.

That sounds awfully cruel. I mean, people made their best effort to pick the right church, right. I mean, they believed what their pastors told them and hated all the sins their pastors told them to hate. "Whoops, sorry, the right answer was 'Mormons'. Off to eternal perdition you go."

I wouldn't want to worship that kind of sadist, and I take great comfort in his non-existence.

Is it not fair to identify that statement as the pride JoeB is taking in what he's saying?

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm sorry, but I don't think that one is sincerely "working something out" when one is blatantly, openly and pridefully rejecting and mocking God. That is to say that the "working out" is between the individual and God.

I believe JoeB has even mocked the existence of God.

I'm pretty sure he would concur with what I just said, so that is not judgement, it's merely giving an accurate account.

As to the "pile on" statement, keep in mind Joe started the thread, and note all the posters, including myself, that have attempted to give a sincere and true response to his initial questions.

Be blessed.

P.S.: JoeB, correct me if my understanding posted above is incorrect.

I think the thing is, I don't see "Yahweh" as God any more than I see "Zeus" as God. Now, perhaps that's my own fault in not saying Yahweh and using "God" as shorthand.

God as defined by religionists is completely illogical. A being with a 14 billion year plan to create a universe would not concentrate on one individual or just torturing one luckless tribe that was dumb enough to start worshipping him. I find it improbable that an omnipotent, omniscient and eternal being is really up there worried about what church one goes to or what kind of sex one is having. That to me is laughable.

I mean, think about this. God..sorry, Yahweh... is only going to save those who believe in Jesus, right? Well that means of the 7 billion people on the planet, the 5 million non-Christians are going to hell, even if they are otherwise perfectly nice people.

That also means that of the 2 billion who are lucky enough to be Christians, only the ones who picked the right Church get in. Well, which one is the right Church? The Catholics? The Orthodox? The Lutherans... Heck, let's go all out crazy here and say the Mormons. Maybe God just has that bizarre a sense of humor.

That sounds awfully cruel. I mean, people made their best effort to pick the right church, right. I mean, they believed what their pastors told them and hated all the sins their pastors told them to hate. "Whoops, sorry, the right answer was 'Mormons'. Off to eternal perdition you go."

I wouldn't want to worship that kind of sadist, and I take great comfort in his non-existence.

Is it not fair to identify that statement as the pride JoeB is taking in what he's saying?

Why go after the pride of an atheist when there are so many proud religious people to choose?

Notice your own reaction to his statement and work with that. Or don't. I'm just full of shit.

 

[MarcATL]

The story of Sodom and Gommorah has been misused. Have you ever walked past a person who was looking for a handout and totally ignored them? I hate to say it, but I know I have. If you have too, then, in a way, we are both guilty of the sin of Sodom. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, as has been taught: it was inhospitality.

Inhospitality is what you do to me, FF. Make me unwelcome to debate you. It is unkindness to strangers.

WoW! That's interesting. How did you arrive at that conclusion? As in, what got you there? Are you going outside of Scripture to come to that conclusion?

 

[Sky Dancer]

The story of Sodom and Gommorah has been misused. Have you ever walked past a person who was looking for a handout and totally ignored them? I hate to say it, but I know I have. If you have too, then, in a way, we are both guilty of the sin of Sodom. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, as has been taught: it was inhospitality.

Inhospitality is what you do to me, FF. Make me unwelcome to debate you. It is unkindness to strangers.

WoW! That's interesting. How did you arrive at that conclusion? As in, what got you there? Are you going outside of Scripture to come to that conclusion?

It comes from a lecture by a pastor of the Metropolitan Community Church, a place where gays are welcome to worship God and Jesus. Gays are the strangers that some Christians offer no hospitality to. Inhospitality is a cruel and harsh attitude toward strangers. It is the closed heart.

 

[MarcATL]

The story of Sodom and Gommorah has been misused. Have you ever walked past a person who was looking for a handout and totally ignored them? I hate to say it, but I know I have. If you have too, then, in a way, we are both guilty of the sin of Sodom. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, as has been taught: it was inhospitality.

Inhospitality is what you do to me, FF. Make me unwelcome to debate you. It is unkindness to strangers.

WoW! That's interesting. How did you arrive at that conclusion? As in, what got you there? Are you going outside of Scripture to come to that conclusion?

It comes from a lecture by a pastor of the Metropolitan Community Church, a place where gays are welcome to worship God and Jesus. Gays are the strangers that some Christians offer no hospitality to. Inhospitality is a cruel and harsh attitude toward strangers. It is the closed heart.

So you put your eternal salvation on the words and interpretations of single, solitary man, a pastor vs. the Word of God as written in Scripture?

You do realize that Scripture speaks about men who will distort Scripture to fit their own liking and understanding...right?

 

[Foxfyre]

The story of Sodom and Gommorah has been misused. Have you ever walked past a person who was looking for a handout and totally ignored them? I hate to say it, but I know I have. If you have too, then, in a way, we are both guilty of the sin of Sodom. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, as has been taught: it was inhospitality.

Inhospitality is what you do to me, FF. Make me unwelcome to debate you. It is unkindness to strangers.

I suggest if you want me to debate you that you make your argument related to the thesis instead of your constant obsession with criticizing, judgment, and making hateful remarks to and about me. I don't waste my time with people like that. Take the hint.

 

[MarcATL]

Take it easy FoxFyre, take it easy.

 

[Sky Dancer]

WoW! That's interesting. How did you arrive at that conclusion? As in, what got you there? Are you going outside of Scripture to come to that conclusion?

It comes from a lecture by a pastor of the Metropolitan Community Church, a place where gays are welcome to worship God and Jesus. Gays are the strangers that some Christians offer no hospitality to. Inhospitality is a cruel and harsh attitude toward strangers. It is the closed heart.

So you put your eternal salvation on the words and interpretations of single, solitary man, a pastor vs. the Word of God as written in Scripture?

You do realize that Scripture speaks about men who will distort Scripture to fit their own liking and understanding...right?

MCC welcomes gay people. Some interpretations of Sodom and Gomorrah have been misused to eject gay people from God's grace. MCC is not alone in interpreting the story of Lot to be one of inhospitality. And as for the number of times the Bible speaks of how important "Hospitality" was to the people in ancient days, they are frequent:

* Exodus 22:21; 23:9

* Deuteronomy 10:19; 14:29; 24:14-22; 27:19

* Leviticus 19:33-34

* Matthew 10:5-15

* Mark 6:7-11

* Luke 9:1-5; 10:3-12

* Romans 12:6-15

* 1 Timothy 3:2

* Titus 1:7-8

* 1 Peter 4:8-10



Look at how threatened you are that there could be another interpretation of this scripture that doesn't follow your prejudice.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The story of Sodom and Gommorah has been misused. Have you ever walked past a person who was looking for a handout and totally ignored them? I hate to say it, but I know I have. If you have too, then, in a way, we are both guilty of the sin of Sodom. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, as has been taught: it was inhospitality.

Inhospitality is what you do to me, FF. Make me unwelcome to debate you. It is unkindness to strangers.

I suggest if you want me to debate you that you make your argument related to the thesis instead of your constant obsession with criticizing, judgment, and making hateful remarks to and about me. I don't waste my time with people like that. Take the hint.

You missed the entire point of my post, which is on target, on the subject of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The sin was inhospitality.

One you obviously aren't willing to contemplate because of your negativity, your own unwillingness to be hospitable to a different point of view from your own.

 

[Foxfyre]

Take it easy FoxFyre, take it easy.

I know. I let her get to me today because I'm not feeling all that well and am far less tolerant with hypocritical hatefulness than usual today. So I'm feeling much more cranky and combative than usual. But that is no excuse for me losing my temper. Sorry about that. I'll put her back on ignore. Problem solved.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Good for you, FF. Better to put me on ignore then project your hatred onto me when all I want to do is discuss an alternate view of Sodom and Gomorrah. I'm a big supporter of the Ignore feature.

Better to put someone on ignore who you can't debate without getting angry.

 

[MarcATL]

It comes from a lecture by a pastor of the Metropolitan Community Church, a place where gays are welcome to worship God and Jesus. Gays are the strangers that some Christians offer no hospitality to. Inhospitality is a cruel and harsh attitude toward strangers. It is the closed heart.

So you put your eternal salvation on the words and interpretations of single, solitary man, a pastor vs. the Word of God as written in Scripture?

You do realize that Scripture speaks about men who will distort Scripture to fit their own liking and understanding...right?

MCC welcomes gay people. Some interpretations of Sodom and Gomorrah have been misused to eject gay people from God's grace. MCC is not alone in interpreting the story of Lot to be one of inhospitality. And as for the number of times the Bible speaks of how important "Hospitality" was to the people in ancient days, they are frequent:

* Exodus 22:21; 23:9

* Deuteronomy 10:19; 14:29; 24:14-22; 27:19

* Leviticus 19:33-34

* Matthew 10:5-15

* Mark 6:7-11

* Luke 9:1-5; 10:3-12

* Romans 12:6-15

* 1 Timothy 3:2

* Titus 1:7-8

* 1 Peter 4:8-10



Look at how threatened you are that there could be another interpretation of this scripture that doesn't follow your prejudice.

I assure you, I'm not threatened at all. Not sure what gave you that impression.

I just want to establish if you believe that there is a right interpretation/understanding of Scripture and there's a wrong interpretation of Scripture.

Are we in agreement on that?

 

[Sky Dancer]

So you put your eternal salvation on the words and interpretations of single, solitary man, a pastor vs. the Word of God as written in Scripture?

You do realize that Scripture speaks about men who will distort Scripture to fit their own liking and understanding...right?

MCC welcomes gay people. Some interpretations of Sodom and Gomorrah have been misused to eject gay people from God's grace. MCC is not alone in interpreting the story of Lot to be one of inhospitality. And as for the number of times the Bible speaks of how important "Hospitality" was to the people in ancient days, they are frequent:

* Exodus 22:21; 23:9

* Deuteronomy 10:19; 14:29; 24:14-22; 27:19

* Leviticus 19:33-34

* Matthew 10:5-15

* Mark 6:7-11

* Luke 9:1-5; 10:3-12

* Romans 12:6-15

* 1 Timothy 3:2

* Titus 1:7-8

* 1 Peter 4:8-10



Look at how threatened you are that there could be another interpretation of this scripture that doesn't follow your prejudice.

I assure you, I'm not threatened at all. Not sure what gave you that impression.

I just want to establish if you believe that there is a right interpretation/understanding of Scripture and there's a wrong interpretation of Scripture.

Are we in agreement on that?

No, we are not in agreement yet. We could have an entire conversation about what is the right way to interpret scripture.

To my mind, the right way to interpret scripture, is the way that opens your heart to God.

Exodus 22:

21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.


We do not read the Bible the way it is; we read it the way we are. --Evelyn Uyemura

 

[MarcATL]

Take it easy FoxFyre, take it easy.

I know. I let her get to me today because I'm not feeling all that well and am far less tolerant with hypocritical hatefulness than usual today. So I'm feeling much more cranky and combative than usual. But that is no excuse for me losing my temper. Sorry about that. I'll put her back on ignore. Problem solved.

No need to put anyone on ignore, at least not Sky. IMO.

I hope you feel better.

 

[Sky Dancer]

So, what is the sin of Sodom? If you search the scriptures, there were many:

Deuteronomy 29:22-28
serving false gods;

Deuteronomy 32:15-19, 21-35 and 31-33
apathy, sacrifice to demons, idolatry and gluttony;

Isaiah 1:2-4, 9-10, 20 and 23-31
forsaking God, showing contempt to God;

Isaiah 3:8-11,15
oppression, discrimination.

Finally the New Testament's description of Sodom's sins has to do with the rejection of "the message" (Matthew 10:14-15, Matthew 11:23-24 and Mark 6:11).

John 3:16 assure us of God's love. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.".

 

[MarcATL]

MCC welcomes gay people. Some interpretations of Sodom and Gomorrah have been misused to eject gay people from God's grace. MCC is not alone in interpreting the story of Lot to be one of inhospitality. And as for the number of times the Bible speaks of how important "Hospitality" was to the people in ancient days, they are frequent:

* Exodus 22:21; 23:9

* Deuteronomy 10:19; 14:29; 24:14-22; 27:19

* Leviticus 19:33-34

* Matthew 10:5-15

* Mark 6:7-11

* Luke 9:1-5; 10:3-12

* Romans 12:6-15

* 1 Timothy 3:2

* Titus 1:7-8

* 1 Peter 4:8-10



Look at how threatened you are that there could be another interpretation of this scripture that doesn't follow your prejudice.

I assure you, I'm not threatened at all. Not sure what gave you that impression.

I just want to establish if you believe that there is a right interpretation/understanding of Scripture and there's a wrong interpretation of Scripture.

Are we in agreement on that?

No, we are not in agreement yet. We could have an entire conversation about what is the right way to interpret scripture.

To my mind, the right way to interpret scripture, is the way that opens your heart to God.

Exodus 22:

21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.


We do not read the Bible the way it is; we read it the way we are. --Evelyn Uyemura

OK, I've read the passages that you provided and can and will respond to them now.

Exodus 20 ESV - The Ten Commandments - And God spoke - Bible Gateway
Exodus 20:8
Well, you didn't post this one, but you did post an Exodus passage. I want you to take not of this Exodus passage. Note how it talks about the behaviour of a stranger (and/or guest) in one's house and how they too have to follow the rules of the house. What does that tell you?

Leviticus 20:13 NIV - If a man has sexual relations with a - Bible Gateway

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

Well, that's pretty clear. God does not approve of, nor condone homosexuality. I'll add this is the act, not the individual.

Leviticus 19:33-34 NIV - When a foreigner resides among you in - Bible Gateway

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Putting this in its context, this is where the Lord is teaching His people not to be prejuduiced. You will note that there was great contention between the Jews and Gentiles (read Samaritans), mostly perpetuated from the Jews, who considered the Samaritans (Gentiles) less than dirt. This is the context of those passages.

Matthew 10:5-15 NIV - These twelve Jesus sent out with the - Bible Gateway

11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Note the phrase "worthy person", which connotates just not anybody. I believe you would deem that to be judgement, based on your previous comments. Further note the phrase "if the home is deserving", again, more evidence of what you would most likely deem "judgement." And finally note the last text which speaks about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, again referring to a clear judgement. There's a message here. Not everything, is acceptable by God. Anyone yes, but not those who choose to go and do against His will.

Mark 6:7-11 ESV - Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Apostles - Bible Gateway

7 And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits. 8 He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belts— 9 but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics.[a] 10 And he said to them, "Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you depart from there. 11 And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them."

Not sure how this has to do with hospitality, or what hospitality has to do with this entire S&G situation, however this is Jesus' instructions to the disciples. Note he tells them "if they will not listen to you." What do you think that's referring to?

Luke 9:1-5 NIV - Jesus Sends Out the Twelve - When Jesus - Bible Gateway

1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 He told them: “Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5 If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

Note the last words, "as a testimony against them." That's referring to disaproval of, not the people themselves, but their actions/beliefs/standards.

Romans 12:6-15 KJV;NASB - Having then gifts differing according - Bible Gateway

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. 10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; 11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; 12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. 14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

This passage is rich with lessons.
Note how it speaks about teaching. Teaching Scripture, which suggests that there are and will be people who need teaching, some of which include people with a wrong or false understanding of what Scripture is.
This same passage speaks about abhoring evil. And Scripture has already defined sodomy as evil. Yet, I believe you find fault with that definition. Interesting.
Note how it says to pray earnestly in this Scripture. Pray to God the Creator that is. I hope and pray this is something you subscribe to, as prayer changes things.
Lastly it speaks about blessing those who curse you, something I'm sure many a Christian struggle with. I know I do, I've come a long way, myswelf on that one, and have a long way to go still. How about you?

I'm not going to address each and every one, I could, but clearly, you seem to have taken a position, and are seeking to find anything that you think, will justify it in Scripture. The Bible speaks about that too, BTW. We are not to nit-pick Scripture and pick out the things we deem as things we agree with and elevate them over all else. We are to take Scripture in it's entirety, making full note of it's content and meaning and message. Then and only then can we be close to arriving at a proper interpration/understanding of Scripture.

However, it seems you've already stated that you don't agree that there's wrong interpretion of Scripture, only what the individual thinks it is, or should be. Which is, respectuflly, quite ludicrous, as thats a free-for-all. Anything goes, and we all know, or should know that God is a God of order. Satan is prince of chaos.

I just hope that you're gaining something from this. I suspect taht you are sincere.