Sodom and Gomorrah

[JoeB131]

I haven't avoided it, it's already been explained and discussed ad nauseum by many on here, you're never going to agree with it or see it any differently, so why would anyone continue to waste their time on you?:

No, you have avoided it, you continue to avoid it.

You do what mind-numbed sheep do. I guess that's why you call you sky pixie a shephard... leading people to the slaughter.

There simply is no excuse for God in the story. He just acts in an evil way.

God's morality in the story is insane. Period. Or at least not sane to those of us in a civilized society.

 

[Foxfyre]

I haven't avoided it, it's already been explained and discussed ad nauseum by many on here, you're never going to agree with it or see it any differently, so why would anyone continue to waste their time on you?:

No, you have avoided it, you continue to avoid it.

You do what mind-numbed sheep do. I guess that's why you call you sky pixie a shephard... leading people to the slaughter.

There simply is no excuse for God in the story. He just acts in an evil way.

God's morality in the story is insane. Period. Or at least not sane to those of us in a civilized society.

I suppose it looks that way to the anti-religious. But looking at it through the eyes of the ancients who scribed the story, the God of Sodom and Gomorrah was the same God who gave life to the people and supplied all their needs, who protected them and promised them an amazing future. It was because He was a righteous God, not because He was evil, that he destroyed the cities. And it was because of the immorality of the people in the cities, not His immorality, that He did so. At least have the integrity to judge them by THEIR understanding of morality and not our morality of the 21st Century.

 

[Iridescence]

Foxfyre and I seem to agree... on many levels.

The issue with those two cities, again, given as example, was a little more, though than mere morals and morality. That may have been the determining factor, however, in healing the people and rescuing the land. If the morals had changed, their habits would have come to be less of an abomination and they would have come to be healed... Or, atleast, I believe so from what little I know. It was obvious, by what is given in scripture, that their state of mind was so distorted that there was no reasoning with them, accordingly. To put it in layman's terms, when Lot offered his virgin daughters to the men of the city, it represented more of a right than wrong because of many things, for one, they were youths raised in a Godly home... They obviously had every likelihood of becoming like their mother, Lot's wife, who was thereafter known as a pillar of salt.

My understanding of it is quite limited and my perception may not be in accordance to others, but it makes a basic sense... without going into more detail that would only represent more confusion to many.

 

[JoeB131]

I suppose it looks that way to the anti-religious. But looking at it through the eyes of the ancients who scribed the story, the God of Sodom and Gomorrah was the same God who gave life to the people and supplied all their needs, who protected them and promised them an amazing future. It was because He was a righteous God, not because He was evil, that he destroyed the cities. And it was because of the immorality of the people in the cities, not His immorality, that He did so. At least have the integrity to judge them by THEIR understanding of morality and not our morality of the 21st Century.

a few problems with that.

The first was that the Hebrews didn't really believe in an afterlife at that point. Now, when the Abrahamic religions eventually turned into Judiasm, Christianity and Islam, they developed a belief in Heaven and Hell, but that was not part of faith originally. The perk of believing in Yahweh was that he gave you permission to slaughter your neighbors and take their stuff. Unless of course they won and took your stuff, which didn't mean Moloch or Chemosh was winning, but that you were just sinning too much. So the notion that he was doing it to save their souls doesn't quite hold up.

And that's an understandable position, if you are a bronze age savage who doesn't know what a germ is or what caused earthquakes or where the sun went at night. Bad stuff happens, God must be punishing us. Let's find someone to stone to death to appease him.

So taking their savagery into account, does God's actions still hold up? Well, yeah, I guess if you are total, misogynistic, racist barbarian who is uptight about sex, it does. In that case, offering up your worthless virgin daugthers for gang rape does make sense, and those darned queers turned them down, and totally deserved to get it.

And then you could claim that your enemies, the Ammonites and the Moabites, who were also claiming to be relatives, were the result of some nasty drunken incest (which I think was the real point of that story, to make the whole thing sound nastier when those two tribes claimed Lot as an ancestor, let's dump on Lot's daughters.)

 

[Iridescence]

JoeB, really, perhaps you are underestimating Lot's daughters. They had been, afterall, obviously aware of a great many things... Lot was not necessarily the fool your posts seem to be making him out to be.

 

[JoeB131]

JoeB, really, perhaps you are underestimating Lot's daughters. They had been, afterall, obviously aware of a great many things... Lot was not necessarily the fool your posts seem to be making him out to be.

Really. Frankly, I wonder how drunk you have to get to have sex with your daughter- TWICE!

The scripture says they had "never known a man", which would imply a certain amount of innocence on their part, given that they married girls off at 15 back in those days. They probably wouldn't have been taught how to read or write.

 

[Iridescence]

You may be working the wrong angles, yet again. If they could not yet read or write, I would only wonder just how important it would have been, considering how *little* we seem to prove to know about their required lifestyle. Sometimes things are not as they appear, JoeB. His daughters, even if, as you seem to suggest, were dumb as twits, they had every capability to become highly successful wives to men of that day and if nothing else proves such, their subjected thoughts and actions thereafter with their father proves it. Not many women could live under those conditions and still be able to yhink strategically... Then, yet, perhaps there are more than even I know.

 

[JoeB131]

You may be working the wrong angles, yet again. If they could not yet read or write, I would only wonder just how important it would have been, considering how *little* we seem to prove to know about their required lifestyle. Sometimes things are not as they appear, JoeB. His daughters, even if, as you seem to suggest, were dumb as twits, they had every capability to become highly successful wives to men of that day and if nothing else proves such, their subjected thoughts and actions thereafter with their father proves it. Not many women could live under those conditions and still be able to yhink strategically... Then, yet, perhaps there are more than even I know.

Or perhaps you are doing theological and philosophical handstands to let Lot and Yahweh off the hook for their bad behavior.

Please tell me what world you live in where a man could get BOTH of his teenage daughters pregnant, and get away with the excuse "Well, they got me drunk. Twice!"

NOw, if you look at the story with a cynical eye, it makes sense.

The Hebrews were fighting a long term genocidal war with the Moabites and Ammonites over this crappy little strip of land they are still fighting over today.

"Gee, they desecnded from Lot, which means they have as good a claim as we do. how do we bolster our case that it's our land?"

"I know, let's write something into the bible about how they were the result of an incestuous union between Lot and his daughters!"

In short, it was a story that was made up as propaganda.

I think the actual best person is this story is Mrs. Lot, and she got turned into a pillar of salt.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I haven't avoided it, it's already been explained and discussed ad nauseum by many on here, you're never going to agree with it or see it any differently, so why would anyone continue to waste their time on you?:

No, you have avoided it, you continue to avoid it.

You do what mind-numbed sheep do. I guess that's why you call you sky pixie a shephard... leading people to the slaughter.

There simply is no excuse for God in the story. He just acts in an evil way.

God's morality in the story is insane. Period. Or at least not sane to those of us in a civilized society.

I suppose it looks that way to the anti-religious. But looking at it through the eyes of the ancients who scribed the story, the God of Sodom and Gomorrah was the same God who gave life to the people and supplied all their needs, who protected them and promised them an amazing future. It was because He was a righteous God, not because He was evil, that he destroyed the cities. And it was because of the immorality of the people in the cities, not His immorality, that He did so. At least have the integrity to judge them by THEIR understanding of morality and not our morality of the 21st Century.

It's interesting to read this paragraph. It contains a synopsis of Judeo-Christian concepts of God.

God is life giving, supplies all needs, and protects. God is righteous, so he destroys what he judges to be not righteous, immorality according a code he has set down.

God definitely sounds like a super human to me. God has a personality and powers. He gives and he takes away.

Very different from my idea of what God is.

 

[Sky Dancer]

No that's not what I say, that's the voices in your head again. I've asked you repeatedly not to make me responsible for what the voices in your head say.

Half of marriages end in divorce, I don't think that's ok, half of america is anti-gay or so, I don't think that's ok, tons of america thinks gov't can and should replace charity, I don't think that's ok.

Whenever you need me to crush one of your pathetic assumptions that are always false, just let me know and I'll happily oblige.

So, are you making moral judgments regarding those people who do things that you don't think are 'ok'? I'd say you are.

I'm making judgements about those acts. But I don't compare people to Nazis for getting a divorce.

My dad got a divorce, and he's far morally superior to myself, but i still think him getting a divorce was immoral. Not everyone's morals are the same and not everyone views the same things to be immoral as others. That's something i'm trying to get into the heads of the fundamentalist type who say being pro-choice is the same as being pro-genocide.

Pro-choice is definitely NOT pro-genocide. It is not even PRO-ABORTION.

 

[Sky Dancer]

So, once again, only 'fundamentalist christians' are holier than thou? What percentage of 'holier-than-thou' people do they make up? 90%?

No, lots of people can be holier than thou. Just my experience in terms of the religious, you're far more likely to have a fundmantalist be a holier than thou type than a normal believer.

If you asked me to be locked in an elevator with your average christian or a nun, I wouldn't be flipping a coin, I'd pick the average christian. I don't think I'm in the minority on that one either.

What is it with atheists and Catholics?? I grew up Catholic and never experienced any of the treatment or behavior I've seen described that have made so many people bitter. I'm not Catholic any longer, but I certainly don't harbor the hatred and bitterness that I see so many others hold. Some PEOPLE are nasty, they come from all backgrounds and walks of life, including religious, so to pin it onto a specific group seems silly to me. I've come across many 'holier than thou' people, and most of them didn't even have a religious background.

How is it that you cannot understand that people have different experiences from you? Some people have wholly positive experiences with the RCC and they didn't leave the church like you did, they are devout Catholics.

Some people are "cradle Catholics", they were raised Catholic, they even consider themselves Catholic, yet they don't practice the faith.

Others have had bad experiences with the RCC, yet they work them through and go back to the RCC.

Others have had bad experiences, and this informs their view of religion for the rest of their lives. Even if they take up another faith, they are still influenced, (negatively), by the RCC.

The RCC has some heavy history. Irish Catholics are among the most sexually repressed peoples in the world. I was raised Irish Catholic.

When it happens that someone is raised Irish Catholic and the family they grew up in was seriously dysfunctional, the combination can create bitterness that takes a very long time to dispel.

Just food for thought and just my opinion.

 

[Iridescence]

You may be working the wrong angles, yet again. If they could not yet read or write, I would only wonder just how important it would have been, considering how *little* we seem to prove to know about their required lifestyle. Sometimes things are not as they appear, JoeB. His daughters, even if, as you seem to suggest, were dumb as twits, they had every capability to become highly successful wives to men of that day and if nothing else proves such, their subjected thoughts and actions thereafter with their father proves it. Not many women could live under those conditions and still be able to yhink strategically... Then, yet, perhaps there are more than even I know.

Or perhaps you are doing theological and philosophical handstands to let Lot and Yahweh off the hook for their bad behavior.

Please tell me what world you live in where a man could get BOTH of his teenage daughters pregnant, and get away with the excuse "Well, they got me drunk. Twice!"

NOw, if you look at the story with a cynical eye, it makes sense.

The Hebrews were fighting a long term genocidal war with the Moabites and Ammonites over this crappy little strip of land they are still fighting over today.

"Gee, they desecnded from Lot, which means they have as good a claim as we do. how do we bolster our case that it's our land?"

"I know, let's write something into the bible about how they were the result of an incestuous union between Lot and his daughters!"

In short, it was a story that was made up as propaganda.

I think the actual best person is this story is Mrs. Lot, and she got turned into a pillar of salt.

I just hope I am wearing some sort of pants if you have me doing the handstands.

 

[JoeB131]

You may be working the wrong angles, yet again. If they could not yet read or write, I would only wonder just how important it would have been, considering how *little* we seem to prove to know about their required lifestyle. Sometimes things are not as they appear, JoeB. His daughters, even if, as you seem to suggest, were dumb as twits, they had every capability to become highly successful wives to men of that day and if nothing else proves such, their subjected thoughts and actions thereafter with their father proves it. Not many women could live under those conditions and still be able to yhink strategically... Then, yet, perhaps there are more than even I know.

Or perhaps you are doing theological and philosophical handstands to let Lot and Yahweh off the hook for their bad behavior.

Please tell me what world you live in where a man could get BOTH of his teenage daughters pregnant, and get away with the excuse "Well, they got me drunk. Twice!"

NOw, if you look at the story with a cynical eye, it makes sense.

The Hebrews were fighting a long term genocidal war with the Moabites and Ammonites over this crappy little strip of land they are still fighting over today.

"Gee, they desecnded from Lot, which means they have as good a claim as we do. how do we bolster our case that it's our land?"

"I know, let's write something into the bible about how they were the result of an incestuous union between Lot and his daughters!"

In short, it was a story that was made up as propaganda.

I think the actual best person is this story is Mrs. Lot, and she got turned into a pillar of salt.

I just hope I am wearing some sort of pants if you have me doing the handstands.

As do I... but you didnt' address the point I made... someday you might.

How is a man who has drunken sex with both his teenage daughter's righteous?

I mean righteous enough for God to send angels out to save him?

 

[Iridescence]

I am going to do as you claim everyone does but answer as honestly as I can at this time. I do not have the mind of God, it may be a continual and eternal process that some may achieve. The issue with Lot makes sense to me, personally, but not in ways that would be popular in mainstream and not in ways that can be openly posted. I am not all-knowing and I wouldn't dare boast to know what is Holy and fitting within the eyes of God.

 

[JoeB131]

I am going to do as you claim everyone does but answer as honestly as I can at this time. I do not have the mind of God, it may be a continual and eternal process that some may achieve. The issue with Lot makes sense to me, personally, but not in ways that would be popular in mainstream and not in ways that can be openly posted. I am not all-knowing and I wouldn't dare boast to know what is Holy and fitting within the eyes of God.

That's kind of sheep thinking. God must have a good reason.

That's what the creepy old nun said at my Mom's funeral. God must have had a reason for putting this otherwise decent (if a bit flaky) woman through agonizing pain for a year right after her husband of 25 years died from a similar agonizing disease. God had a reason for this, she said.

The next day, I became an Atheist.

 

[Iridescence]

Ugh... JoeB, you seem to forever be blending realities. You cannot disprove God with you refusal to acknowledge He represents better than your personal experiences have thus far been. Perhaps you only need a new way of understanding?

Disease and death can be the tools used to prove Him, just as they seem to have been what disproved Him for you. My uncle passed away druggedon morphine with bone cancer. Within a month later his wife, my aunt passed on with cancer, but more prepared and seemingly impatient... It was always a marker for me... Reminding me that some people do marry beyond that which is physically evident.

 

[MarcATL]

The Bible speaks about arguing with a fool.

There comes a point and time when the believer has to recognize when it becomes pointless and even negative to "debate" with an unbeliever.

Clearly JoeB started out this thread with an agenda, to attack God and the Bible, and he's very happy with himself over it. He's not going to change his position, as he's not sincerely trying to understand God or the Bible. Simply strengthen his own predetermined beliefs and biases.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised this thread is still going on.

Happy Sabbath guys.

 

[JoeB131]

Ugh... JoeB, you seem to forever be blending realities. You cannot disprove God with you refusal to acknowledge He represents better than your personal experiences have thus far been. Perhaps you only need a new way of understanding?

Disease and death can be the tools used to prove Him, just as they seem to have been what disproved Him for you. My uncle passed away druggedon morphine with bone cancer. Within a month later his wife, my aunt passed on with cancer, but more prepared and seemingly impatient... It was always a marker for me... Reminding me that some people do marry beyond that which is physically evident.

You misunderstand me... God didn't make mom better because there WAS no God.

Never was.

And realizing that this nasty, evil old nun who prayed to an imaginary sky friend her whole life because she couldn't handle being a lesbian was completely full of shit was totally liberating. No god worth his salt would have IDIOTS like these trying to defend him.

There is no God. Once I realized that, everything in life became a lot simpler. No more having to reconcile ridiculous stories in the bible. They are just stories, written by stupid savages that have no basis on my life at all.

 

[JoeB131]

The Bible speaks about arguing with a fool.

The bible also talks about smashing in babies' heads... wonderful book.

There comes a point and time when the believer has to recognize when it becomes pointless and even negative to "debate" with an unbeliever.

yeah, the point being when you can't prove your point. You should have given up after post 1 in that case.

Clearly JoeB started out this thread with an agenda, to attack God and the Bible, and he's very happy with himself over it. He's not going to change his position, as he's not sincerely trying to understand God or the Bible. Simply strengthen his own predetermined beliefs and biases.

As Mark Twain said, it isn't the parts of the bible I don't understand that trouble me, it's the parts I understand perfectly well.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised this thread is still going on.

Happy Sabbath guys.

Oh, it'll go on longer than the Mormon thread...

 

[MarcATL]

If you truly wish to have insight into the Character of God, here's a good presentation for you.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2krlZ-g0p9Y]Walter Veith, Co-dependence - the unselfish planet 5-13-2011 - YouTube[/ame]

Have a Happy Sabbath.