Socialism sucks! (Virus hits). Socialism save us!!

Toddsterpatriot

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.the only problem we have is that the GOP refuses to tax the rich their fair share
Top 1% now pay 40% of revenue collected instead of 1% so they pay 40 times more than fair share.
We have a flat tax system so they actually pay about 80% because they earn about 80% of the national income. A flat tax system is a disgrace and gives us the worst inequality and upward mobility ever basically.
they earn about 80% of the national income.

Liar.
 

francoHFW

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Darling, please, some of us are tethered to objective reality. I've advocated nothing, I have laid out some things you cannot confront and that is all.

Your national level elected officials enjoy socialized healthcare at your expense, and they are getting elitist preferential COVID-19 testing not available to all. Intelligence Committee members held from the amerifcan people that a pandemic was on the way while the informed donors and engaged in insider trading. Have you been to the store lately?
And commies are to blame, so take your commie shit and get the fuck out.

.
 

Tom Paine 1949

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Tom Paine:
"... and may once again — as in 2008/9 — simply bail out bankrupt Hedge Funds"

Toddsterpatriot:
"Which hedge funds were bailed out in 2008/9? How were they bailed out? Link?"

This was hardly the main point of my comment, but it amazes me this question is still being asked. The bailout programs of the Fed concentrated in 2007-9 on major otherwise soon to be insolvent banks (including foreign banks) and AIG. It has been demonstrated that the money and credit was also given to dozens of their special counterparty private Hedge Funds. Of course by their very nature these private unregulated and usually highly leveraged firms were discrete and almost invisible to the public. But the press and researchers showed that Hedge Funds closely related to the big banks and AIG that were bailed out were bigger and survived the crisis more frequently and in much better shape than those connected to unbailed out smaller institutions, and their execs "earned" bonuses in the hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars in the next few years:




 
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EdwardBaiamonte

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Bernie Sanders is not Stalin.
then why did he honeymoon in Stalin's USSR and work for Socialist Workers Party here????

I'd say Sanders is more communist than socialist.

"You don’t necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants when children are hungry in this country," Sanders told John Harwood of NBC

In 1980 he was an “elector” in the Socialist Workers Party (founded by communists expelled from Russia for supporting Leon Trotsky).

AOC is an open communist who, with Sanders, supports the Green New Deal Second Great Depression and Communist Revolution.


When Elizabeth Warren was hot, Sanders was asked for difference between them. He said, "she has said she is a capitalist to her bones, I am not."

Lenin: "The object of socialism is communism."
 
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Frankeneinstein

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Darling, please, some of us are tethered to objective reality. I've advocated nothing, I have laid out some things you cannot confront and that is all.

Your national level elected officials enjoy socialized healthcare at your expense, and they are getting elitist preferential COVID-19 testing not available to all. Intelligence Committee members held from the amerifcan people that a pandemic was on the way while they informed donors and engaged in insider trading. Have you been to the store lately?
You actually made her point, you claim our leaders are engaging in socialism for themselves and to prove it you describe how corrupt they are.
 

EdwardBaiamonte

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Socialism is democratic.
but is it Capitalistic??

Stalin said, of course we are democratic, why do you think we hold elections?"


"At a time when the Democratic and Republican parties are intellectually and spiritually bankrupt, it is imperative for radical voices to be heard which offer fundamental alternatives to capitalist ideology. I wish Mel Mason good luck on his campaign," Sanders wrote in a letter to the Militant in January 1984.
 

Andylusion

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Tom Paine:
"... and may once again — as in 2008/9 — simply bail out bankrupt Hedge Funds"

Toddsterpatriot:
"Which hedge funds were bailed out in 2008/9? How were they bailed out? Link?"

This was hardly the main point of my comment, but it amazes me this question is still being asked. The bailout programs of the Fed concentrated in 2007-9 on major otherwise soon to be insolvent banks (including foreign banks) and AIG. It has been demonstrated that the money and credit was also given to dozens of their special counterparty private Hedge Funds. Of course by their very nature these private unregulated and usually highly leveraged firms were discrete and almost invisible to the public. But the press and researchers showed that Hedge Funds closely related to the big banks and AIG that were bailed out were bigger and survived the crisis more frequently and in much better shape than those connected to unbailed out smaller institutions, and their execs "earned" bonuses in the hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars in the next few years:




That is ridiculous.

You said hedge funds got bailed out.

You then post a link to AIG getting a bailout. Then because a hedge fund somewhere benefitted from AIG, that this means hedge funds were bailout out?

By that logic... that person B, is bailed out, because person B got money from person A who was in fact bailed out....

By that logic, the entire population was bailed out. Every person with an account with CitiGroup, Bank of American, and on and on and on... were all bailed out.

And if you are claiming the entire population was bailed out... then the amount of money that went to the hedge funds was peanuts in comparison. So you really don't have anything to complain about.
 

mikegriffith1

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Did y’all catch Trumps presser ? Whole lotta commie socialist talk going on. Tests for everyone ? Bailouts ? Billion dollar aid packages ?!?


When push comes to shove , socialist type programs ain’t so bad . Or should we rely on capitalism alone to save us with price gouging?
That is beyond ignorant. If you guys hadn't lied and distorted and scared the country into a panic, we wouldn't be needing these massive stimulus bills.

And, FYI, the private medical sector is playing a huge role in our effort to deal with the virus.
 

Toddsterpatriot

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Tom Paine:
"... and may once again — as in 2008/9 — simply bail out bankrupt Hedge Funds"

Toddsterpatriot:
"Which hedge funds were bailed out in 2008/9? How were they bailed out? Link?"

This was hardly the main point of my comment, but it amazes me this question is still being asked. The bailout programs of the Fed concentrated in 2007-9 on major otherwise soon to be insolvent banks (including foreign banks) and AIG. It has been demonstrated that the money and credit was also given to dozens of their special counterparty private Hedge Funds. Of course by their very nature these private unregulated and usually highly leveraged firms were discrete and almost invisible to the public. But the press and researchers showed that Hedge Funds closely related to the big banks and AIG that were bailed out were bigger and survived the crisis more frequently and in much better shape than those connected to unbailed out smaller institutions, and their execs "earned" bonuses in the hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars in the next few years:




This was hardly the main point of my comment, but it amazes me this question is still being asked.

I've never heard that claim before.

The bailout programs of the Fed concentrated in 2007-9 on major otherwise soon to be insolvent banks (including foreign banks) and AIG. It has been demonstrated that the money and credit was also given to dozens of their special counterparty private Hedge Funds.

Dozens? Can't name any?

Of course by their very nature these private unregulated and usually highly leveraged firms were discrete and almost invisible to the public.

So you can't prove your claim.....because they're invisible?
Did anyone else see any invisible bailouts?
 

francoHFW

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Darling, please, some of us are tethered to objective reality. I've advocated nothing, I have laid out some things you cannot confront and that is all.

Your national level elected officials enjoy socialized healthcare at your expense, and they are getting elitist preferential COVID-19 testing not available to all. Intelligence Committee members held from the amerifcan people that a pandemic was on the way while the informed donors and engaged in insider trading. Have you been to the store lately?
And commies are to blame, so take your commie shit and get the fuck out.

.
Socialism is democratic.
see what happens when you skip college? Democracy is when people rule, socialism is when government rules. They are opposites.
That's communism. Socialism everywhere outside the English-speaking conservative world of b******* is always Democratic Fair capitalism with a good safety net like every other rich country in the world but us thanks to the scumbag GOP and silly dupes like you.
 

francoHFW

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Did y’all catch Trumps presser ? Whole lotta commie socialist talk going on. Tests for everyone ? Bailouts ? Billion dollar aid packages ?!?


When push comes to shove , socialist type programs ain’t so bad . Or should we rely on capitalism alone to save us with price gouging?
That is beyond ignorant. If you guys hadn't lied and distorted and scared the country into a panic, we wouldn't be needing these massive stimulus bills.

And, FYI, the private medical sector is playing a huge role in our effort to deal with the virus.
And the amazing GOP propaganda machine even missinforms about this. And our president gets all his facts from Fox news. Amazing. Poor America
 

francoHFW

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Did y’all catch Trumps presser ? Whole lotta commie socialist talk going on. Tests for everyone ? Bailouts ? Billion dollar aid packages ?!?


When push comes to shove , socialist type programs ain’t so bad . Or should we rely on capitalism alone to save us with price gouging?
That is beyond ignorant. If you guys hadn't lied and distorted and scared the country into a panic, we wouldn't be needing these massive stimulus bills.

And, FYI, the private medical sector is playing a huge role in our effort to deal with the virus.
You'll find out super duper
 

francoHFW

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Bernie Sanders is not Stalin.
then why did he honeymoon in Stalin's USSR and work for Socialist Workers Party here????

I'd say Sanders is more communist than socialist.

"You don’t necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants when children are hungry in this country," Sanders told John Harwood of NBC

In 1980 he was an “elector” in the Socialist Workers Party (founded by communists expelled from Russia for supporting Leon Trotsky).

AOC is an open communist who, with Sanders, supports the Green New Deal Second Great Depression and Communist Revolution.


When Elizabeth Warren was hot, Sanders was asked for difference between them. He said, "she has said she is a capitalist to her bones, I am not."

Lenin: "The object of socialism is communism."
Nobody's a Communist you idiot oops brainwashed functional idiot.
 

Tom Paine 1949

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Tom Paine:
"... and may once again — as in 2008/9 — simply bail out bankrupt Hedge Funds"

Toddsterpatriot:
"Which hedge funds were bailed out in 2008/9? How were they bailed out? Link?"

This was hardly the main point of my comment, but it amazes me this question is still being asked. The bailout programs of the Fed concentrated in 2007-9 on major otherwise soon to be insolvent banks (including foreign banks) and AIG. It has been demonstrated that the money and credit was also given to dozens of their special counterparty private Hedge Funds. Of course by their very nature these private unregulated and usually highly leveraged firms were discrete and almost invisible to the public. But the press and researchers showed that Hedge Funds closely related to the big banks and AIG that were bailed out were bigger and survived the crisis more frequently and in much better shape than those connected to unbailed out smaller institutions, and their execs "earned" bonuses in the hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars in the next few years:




This was hardly the main point of my comment, but it amazes me this question is still being asked.

I've never heard that claim before.

The bailout programs of the Fed concentrated in 2007-9 on major otherwise soon to be insolvent banks (including foreign banks) and AIG. It has been demonstrated that the money and credit was also given to dozens of their special counterparty private Hedge Funds.

Dozens? Can't name any?

Of course by their very nature these private unregulated and usually highly leveraged firms were discrete and almost invisible to the public.

So you can't prove your claim.....because they're invisible?
Did anyone else see any invisible bailouts?
Now you are being rather childish. In the real world, especially when ridiculously leveraged firms are going bankrupt and capital is being destroyed, survival depends precisely on who gets the bailout money when, and how much. The investors in these counterparty Hedge Funds of the big banks and AIG (often friends, associates or family members of those managing the bailed out banks) got rich precisely because they got hundreds of millions in pass-along funding at the crucial moment.

Bankruptcy courts, on the other hand, under law give creditors better standing than stockholders (who are often wiped out) and even creditors are put in different categories. But one of the reasons bankruptcy is often a better solution for insolvent firms (besides the moral hazard argument) is that old management is usually wiped out and investigated by new management and can then be prosecuted for violating their fiduciary responsibilities. At the same time new management can keep the business running while debts are temporarily in abeyance and new funding is sought. This was done to many bankrupt airlines in the past, but unfortunately due to our politicians' unwillingness to pass appropriate legislation, the new managements just continued self-enriching but company killing stock buy back programs. Boeing spent some 45 billion this way in the last decade and the airlines a similar amount. While this management looting goes on, it has been an essential part of propping up share values to ridiculous levels. Ditto the taking on of debt (money was so cheap) for this purpose.

Nationalizing poorly run corporations (at least temporarily) is another option, just not one likely to be acceptable today in America. The present crisis is sharp and triggered by "external" reasons, so relatively few ordinary people seriously consider these longer term problems. But if people here want to fight about "socialism" and "capitalism" (I am not a socialist myself), they should at least understand how our "crony capitalism" system really works at the highest levels of finance and credit/money creation. Again, we are not talking about small and medium businesses here, or workers, all of whom may get devastated in financial crisis (however they are created).

P.S. You obviously did not read the links I provided. They list many of the Hedge Funds by name, show their relationships to banks and AIG, speak to how much money some of their directors made, and show the workings of the bailout pass-alongs and their importance to the Hedge Funds very survival.
 
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Toddsterpatriot

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Tom Paine:
"... and may once again — as in 2008/9 — simply bail out bankrupt Hedge Funds"

Toddsterpatriot:
"Which hedge funds were bailed out in 2008/9? How were they bailed out? Link?"

This was hardly the main point of my comment, but it amazes me this question is still being asked. The bailout programs of the Fed concentrated in 2007-9 on major otherwise soon to be insolvent banks (including foreign banks) and AIG. It has been demonstrated that the money and credit was also given to dozens of their special counterparty private Hedge Funds. Of course by their very nature these private unregulated and usually highly leveraged firms were discrete and almost invisible to the public. But the press and researchers showed that Hedge Funds closely related to the big banks and AIG that were bailed out were bigger and survived the crisis more frequently and in much better shape than those connected to unbailed out smaller institutions, and their execs "earned" bonuses in the hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars in the next few years:




This was hardly the main point of my comment, but it amazes me this question is still being asked.

I've never heard that claim before.

The bailout programs of the Fed concentrated in 2007-9 on major otherwise soon to be insolvent banks (including foreign banks) and AIG. It has been demonstrated that the money and credit was also given to dozens of their special counterparty private Hedge Funds.

Dozens? Can't name any?

Of course by their very nature these private unregulated and usually highly leveraged firms were discrete and almost invisible to the public.

So you can't prove your claim.....because they're invisible?
Did anyone else see any invisible bailouts?
Now you are being just childish. In the real world, especially when ridiculously leveraged firms are going bankrupt and capital is being destroyed, survival depends precisely on who gets the bailout money when, and how much. The investors in these counterparty Hedge Funds of the big banks and AIG (often friends, associates or family members of those managing the bailed out banks) got rich precisely because they got hundreds of millions in pass-along funding at the crucial moment.

Bankruptcy courts, on the other hand, under law give creditors better standing than stockholders (who are often wiped out) and even creditors are put in different categories. But one of the reasons bankruptcy is often a better solution for insolvent firms (besides the moral hazard argument) is that old management is usually wiped out and investigated by new management and can then be prosecuted for violating their fiduciary responsibilities. At the same time new management can keep the business running while debts are temporarily in abeyance and new funding is sought. This was done to many bankrupt airlines in the past, but unfortunately due to our politicians' unwillingness to pass appropriate legislation, the new managements just continued self-enriching but company killing stock buy back programs. Boeing spent some 45 billion this way in the last decade and the airlines a similar amount. While this management looting goes on, it has been an essential part of propping up share values to ridiculous levels. Ditto the taking on of debt (money was so cheap) for this purpose.

Nationalizing poorly run corporations (at least temporarily) is another option, just not one likely to be acceptable today in America. The present crisis is sharp and triggered by "external" reasons, so relatively few ordinary people seriously consider these longer term problems. But if people here want to fight about "socialism" and "capitalism" (I am not a socialist myself), they should at least understand how our "crony capitalism" system really works at the highest levels of finance and credit/money creation. Again, we are not talking about small and medium businesses here, or workers, all of whom may get devastated in financial crisis (however they are created).

P.S. You obviously did not read the links I provided. They list many of the Hedge Funds by name, show their relationships to banks and AIG, speak to how much money some of their directors made, and show the workings of the bailout pass-alongs and their importance to the Hedge Funds very survival.
You should have just said that AIG got bailed out, instead of incorrectly claiming our system simply bailed out bankrupt Hedge Funds.

They list many of the Hedge Funds by name,


Many? You mean they named two? And incorrectly claimed they received taxpayer dollars.
 

Tom Paine 1949

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Tom Paine:
"... and may once again — as in 2008/9 — simply bail out bankrupt Hedge Funds"

Toddsterpatriot:
"Which hedge funds were bailed out in 2008/9? How were they bailed out? Link?"

This was hardly the main point of my comment, but it amazes me this question is still being asked. The bailout programs of the Fed concentrated in 2007-9 on major otherwise soon to be insolvent banks (including foreign banks) and AIG. It has been demonstrated that the money and credit was also given to dozens of their special counterparty private Hedge Funds. Of course by their very nature these private unregulated and usually highly leveraged firms were discrete and almost invisible to the public. But the press and researchers showed that Hedge Funds closely related to the big banks and AIG that were bailed out were bigger and survived the crisis more frequently and in much better shape than those connected to unbailed out smaller institutions, and their execs "earned" bonuses in the hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars in the next few years:




This was hardly the main point of my comment, but it amazes me this question is still being asked.

I've never heard that claim before.

The bailout programs of the Fed concentrated in 2007-9 on major otherwise soon to be insolvent banks (including foreign banks) and AIG. It has been demonstrated that the money and credit was also given to dozens of their special counterparty private Hedge Funds.

Dozens? Can't name any?

Of course by their very nature these private unregulated and usually highly leveraged firms were discrete and almost invisible to the public.

So you can't prove your claim.....because they're invisible?
Did anyone else see any invisible bailouts?
Now you are being just childish. In the real world, especially when ridiculously leveraged firms are going bankrupt and capital is being destroyed, survival depends precisely on who gets the bailout money when, and how much. The investors in these counterparty Hedge Funds of the big banks and AIG (often friends, associates or family members of those managing the bailed out banks) got rich precisely because they got hundreds of millions in pass-along funding at the crucial moment.

Bankruptcy courts, on the other hand, under law give creditors better standing than stockholders (who are often wiped out) and even creditors are put in different categories. But one of the reasons bankruptcy is often a better solution for insolvent firms (besides the moral hazard argument) is that old management is usually wiped out and investigated by new management and can then be prosecuted for violating their fiduciary responsibilities. At the same time new management can keep the business running while debts are temporarily in abeyance and new funding is sought. This was done to many bankrupt airlines in the past, but unfortunately due to our politicians' unwillingness to pass appropriate legislation, the new managements just continued self-enriching but company killing stock buy back programs. Boeing spent some 45 billion this way in the last decade and the airlines a similar amount. While this management looting goes on, it has been an essential part of propping up share values to ridiculous levels. Ditto the taking on of debt (money was so cheap) for this purpose.

Nationalizing poorly run corporations (at least temporarily) is another option, just not one likely to be acceptable today in America. The present crisis is sharp and triggered by "external" reasons, so relatively few ordinary people seriously consider these longer term problems. But if people here want to fight about "socialism" and "capitalism" (I am not a socialist myself), they should at least understand how our "crony capitalism" system really works at the highest levels of finance and credit/money creation. Again, we are not talking about small and medium businesses here, or workers, all of whom may get devastated in financial crisis (however they are created).

P.S. You obviously did not read the links I provided. They list many of the Hedge Funds by name, show their relationships to banks and AIG, speak to how much money some of their directors made, and show the workings of the bailout pass-alongs and their importance to the Hedge Funds very survival.
You should have just said that AIG got bailed out, instead of incorrectly claiming our system simply bailed out bankrupt Hedge Funds.

They list many of the Hedge Funds by name,

Many? You mean they named two? And incorrectly claimed they received taxpayer dollars.
The last link, the long academic study, mentions many Hedge Funds and their relations to their bailed out patron banks, and also gives information on where you can find many more that were -- indirectly -- bailed out as "counterparties" in 2007-2009. It also references other academic studies, but I doubt you -- or even I -- would find all that worth researching.
 

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