So...Gay people had to die, before Muslims could get their message out?

[emilynghiem]

If you do it wrong by leaving people out or pitting one against the other.
Sure I agree S.J. we don't want this abused to oppress or exclude people which is the antithesis.

If you do it right, you teach the benefits and BEST of all cultures.

So if European heritage led to the BEST system of Constitutional govt
you teach that to all the minority groups and political parties so
we all benefit from learning the rules and how to enforce them.

So we don't have abuses, crime or corruption if everyone
knows the rules and how they work to check abuses of power!

Which is always the case. Wake up and smell the coffee.

S.J. where have we ENCOURAGED black leaders to teach Constitutional
laws the way Ted Cruz teaches and enforces it, even going against his own party when they sell out?

No, our media divides people politically by party and
slams either the Obama's and Pastors on the left as thugs
or the Ben Carson's and Allen West's on the right as Uncle Toms.

That is NOT "inclusion and respecting diversity"

You and I agree on the problem, but we don't agree on the solution.
I say to reverse this divide, we need to UNITE not divide more!

Me too, but try getting them to do it. It ain't gonna happen.

Dear S.J. I think you answer your own question.
If you seek to divide by cutting out other people from the other direction,
then this division is NOT unity.

You cannot create or encourage unity by enforcing division between you and them.

The same reason they fail by cutting you out,
you fail, and I would fail by doing that equally.

That's why we can't bring it about yet.
We'd all have to start pulling together and quit this division
and bullying by coercion or exclusion. Both sides are guilty.

I think you're overlooking one minor thing, Emily. One side isn't interested in pulling together, they're only interested in killing every one of us. Feel free to try to reason with them and give group hugs if you want. I'll keep an ample supply of ammunition handy.

Dear S.J.
This isn't what I mean by pulling together.
You don't treat the criminally ill the same as the law abiding citizen.

Yes, you DO have to distinguish the Jihadist type terrorists
from the law abiding Muslims, and that is NOT dividing in a bad way.

In order to INCLUDE the Muslims with other law abiding citizens
we do need to agree to follow the same standard rules of civil law and due process.

If you prejudge the law abiding Muslims and punish them for the crimes of "other people" who are terrorists
that is violating our OWN laws of due process in "depriving people of liberty" who are not criminals.

Now S.J. this does not mean "political correctness" and letting terrorists in until
proven guilty or we get the same disaster that happened in Florida.

There are MEANS of screening this man out who was "angry and dangerous"
as there were for the Fort Hood shooter that showed signs of danger in advance.

We CAN enforce more effective methods of screening that would have
pegged this man and also the Fort Hood shooter as dangerous
and diverted both of them into counseling. Even if these methods are voluntary, they work,
and have been used to intervene and prevent violence and shootings that unstable people have planned.

You don't have to punish and deprive whole groups of people
in order to screen out dangerous unstable ones who stand out,
and can be identified as needing constant supervision or counseling until the problem is resolved.

We do need more trained screening and assistance with this, but it is out there and practiced by many.
There are many cases of gang and school violence that have been caught early by people taking action
at first sign of trouble, or the troubled persons coming forward when they have someone they trust to help them.

 

[westwall]

Divide and conquer kills.

Multiculturalism is the preferred method of dividing and conquering.

No. Political correctness is. Multiculturalism is fine. We all come from different cultures and we should honor them all. However, when a person moves here they must also follow the culture of this country, which is one of tolerance and acceptance.

How do you figure that? Immigrants can do and say anything they want when they come here, it's only white people that are likely to vote Republican who are held to the standard of political correctness. Excuses are made for every intolerant immigrant who comes here and wants to live by the laws THEY'RE accustomed to. We have to be tolerant toward them but they don't have to be tolerant toward us.

Untrue. If a black person speaks out against the "black community" they are vilified even worse than a white person doing the same thing. PC is a disease that affects all aspects of our lives now and it needs to be crushed.

 

[S.J.]

Divide and conquer kills.

Multiculturalism is the preferred method of dividing and conquering.

No. Political correctness is. Multiculturalism is fine. We all come from different cultures and we should honor them all. However, when a person moves here they must also follow the culture of this country, which is one of tolerance and acceptance.

How do you figure that? Immigrants can do and say anything they want when they come here, it's only white people that are likely to vote Republican who are held to the standard of political correctness. Excuses are made for every intolerant immigrant who comes here and wants to live by the laws THEY'RE accustomed to. We have to be tolerant toward them but they don't have to be tolerant toward us.

Untrue. If a black person speaks out against the "black community" they are vilified even worse than a white person doing the same thing. PC is a disease that affects all aspects of our lives now and it needs to be crushed.

I thought we were talking about immigrants. PS, I agree that PC needs to be crushed.

 

[Mac1958]

Lock the thread.

Keep the thread open. Let in diversity. We need to talk not cut each other off.

Yep. Interesting how some people instinctively react like that.

"I don't like what you're saying, so I want to make it so you can't."

Sounds pretty familiar, sadly.
.

 

[westwall]

Divide and conquer kills.

Multiculturalism is the preferred method of dividing and conquering.

No. Political correctness is. Multiculturalism is fine. We all come from different cultures and we should honor them all. However, when a person moves here they must also follow the culture of this country, which is one of tolerance and acceptance.

How do you figure that? Immigrants can do and say anything they want when they come here, it's only white people that are likely to vote Republican who are held to the standard of political correctness. Excuses are made for every intolerant immigrant who comes here and wants to live by the laws THEY'RE accustomed to. We have to be tolerant toward them but they don't have to be tolerant toward us.

Untrue. If a black person speaks out against the "black community" they are vilified even worse than a white person doing the same thing. PC is a disease that affects all aspects of our lives now and it needs to be crushed.

I thought we were talking about immigrants. PS, I agree that PC needs to be crushed.

No, we were discussing multiculturalism. The OP blamed this latest shooting on it, but it is not culture, it is the PC police demanding that no one ever be offended.

 

[S.J.]

Multiculturalism is the preferred method of dividing and conquering.

No. Political correctness is. Multiculturalism is fine. We all come from different cultures and we should honor them all. However, when a person moves here they must also follow the culture of this country, which is one of tolerance and acceptance.

How do you figure that? Immigrants can do and say anything they want when they come here, it's only white people that are likely to vote Republican who are held to the standard of political correctness. Excuses are made for every intolerant immigrant who comes here and wants to live by the laws THEY'RE accustomed to. We have to be tolerant toward them but they don't have to be tolerant toward us.

Untrue. If a black person speaks out against the "black community" they are vilified even worse than a white person doing the same thing. PC is a disease that affects all aspects of our lives now and it needs to be crushed.

I thought we were talking about immigrants. PS, I agree that PC needs to be crushed.

No, we were discussing multiculturalism. The OP blamed this latest shooting on it, but it is not culture, it is the PC police demanding that no one ever be offended.

Not no one. It's perfectly acceptable to offend conservatives or Christians. Everyone else, yeah.

 

[Katzndogz]

There are instances in which diversity is destructive. It kills everything. Cultures are so incompatible that they cannot coexist. Islam and western culture is like that. They cannot coexist. There is no point of compromise.

Islam believes in killing gays. The west believes they should be left alone until they harm someone else. Where is the compromise? One side or the other must completely capitulate.

Islam believes that women and men should be separated. This country puts men in women's bathrooms, locker rooms, showers and changing rooms. Where is the compromise?

It's silly really, to expect these two cultures to live in diversity.

 

[Coyote]

After the Orlando Shooting, a Muslim Man's Post Is Going Viral for the Best Reason
Claire Lampen,Mic 3 hours ago

Hours after a gunman opened fire early Sunday morning on an Orlando, Florida, gay nightclub, leaving at least 50 dead and 53 injured, the city’s blood donation centers wereflooded with volunteers.

Among those looking to help was Mahmoud ElAwadi, a self-described “a proud Muslim American” in the midst of a Ramadan fast who wrote about his experience in a Facebook post that’s gone viral.

ElAwadi described “watching thousands of people” bake in the sun for hours on end in order to donate blood. He was inspired, he said, watching people of all ages come together to help, from the kids handing out fluids and food and sun protection to the war veterans to a Muslim woman in a hijab distributing supplies to those waiting to donate.

That’s what makes this “the greatest nation on Earth,” he wrote.

“Yes together we will stand against hate, terrorism, extremism and racism," ElAwadi wrote. "Yes our blood all look the same so get out there and donate.

"Yes our community in central Florida is heartbroken but let’s put our colors, religions, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political views all aside so we can UNITE against those who are trying to hurt us.”

He tagged his post “feeling determined.”

Shortly after Omar Mateen was named as the suspected shooter, reports surfaced he had ties to the Islamic State group, which has since claimed responsibility for the attacks on the Pulse nightclub. The link has prompted a surge in Islamophobic sentiment.
================

When Bush spoke in defense of Muslim Americans and leaders, he was rejected and demonized by the religious right. The media would not push that.

When Obama speaks in defense of Muslims, he is jumped on as lying about his beliefs and promoting propaganda.

Maybe with this incident, people will finally see the difference between hateful warmongering terrorist "Jihadists" (where many Muslims don't even recognize this word because this is so far removed and foreign to the teachings they commit to) and the true meaning and faith of Muslims in America and worldwide who are killed the same way by Islamic/"Jihadist" terrorists.

I am speechless, just in shock and not even reacting to this yet,
that "gay people had to die" before people will make this distinction more public.
Some people still don't get it. Just so sad, sorry and shocked it's come to this.

If any violent group had been attacked this would start a war.
But because the people who were targeted are part of community known for peaceful civil activism,
we have a chance at peace in response to this attack.

I just can't believe it had to happen this way.
My prayers to all those impacted by this and the aftermath.

Even if there are fights, arguments and real nastiness projecting blame where it doesn't belong,
let us work through these issues in honor of all those who have
lost their lives before us, and seek all means of making peace
for the rest of our lives, and sake of generations to follow us.

Let us honor those who live and die for not going along or giving in to terrorism.
Thank you and so sorry for everything that has happened here!

They came out long before this.

After the Orlando Shooting, a Muslim Man's Post Is Going Viral for the Best Reason
Claire Lampen,Mic 3 hours ago

Hours after a gunman opened fire early Sunday morning on an Orlando, Florida, gay nightclub, leaving at least 50 dead and 53 injured, the city’s blood donation centers wereflooded with volunteers.

Among those looking to help was Mahmoud ElAwadi, a self-described “a proud Muslim American” in the midst of a Ramadan fast who wrote about his experience in a Facebook post that’s gone viral.

ElAwadi described “watching thousands of people” bake in the sun for hours on end in order to donate blood. He was inspired, he said, watching people of all ages come together to help, from the kids handing out fluids and food and sun protection to the war veterans to a Muslim woman in a hijab distributing supplies to those waiting to donate.

That’s what makes this “the greatest nation on Earth,” he wrote.

“Yes together we will stand against hate, terrorism, extremism and racism," ElAwadi wrote. "Yes our blood all look the same so get out there and donate.

"Yes our community in central Florida is heartbroken but let’s put our colors, religions, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political views all aside so we can UNITE against those who are trying to hurt us.”

He tagged his post “feeling determined.”

Shortly after Omar Mateen was named as the suspected shooter, reports surfaced he had ties to the Islamic State group, which has since claimed responsibility for the attacks on the Pulse nightclub. The link has prompted a surge in Islamophobic sentiment.
================

When Bush spoke in defense of Muslim Americans and leaders, he was rejected and demonized by the religious right. The media would not push that.

When Obama speaks in defense of Muslims, he is jumped on as lying about his beliefs and promoting propaganda.

Maybe with this incident, people will finally see the difference between hateful warmongering terrorist "Jihadists" (where many Muslims don't even recognize this word because this is so far removed and foreign to the teachings they commit to) and the true meaning and faith of Muslims in America and worldwide who are killed the same way by Islamic/"Jihadist" terrorists.

I am speechless, just in shock and not even reacting to this yet,
that "gay people had to die" before people will make this distinction more public.
Some people still don't get it. Just so sad, sorry and shocked it's come to this.

If any violent group had been attacked this would start a war.
But because the people who were targeted are part of community known for peaceful civil activism,
we have a chance at peace in response to this attack.

I just can't believe it had to happen this way.
My prayers to all those impacted by this and the aftermath.

Even if there are fights, arguments and real nastiness projecting blame where it doesn't belong,
let us work through these issues in honor of all those who have
lost their lives before us, and seek all means of making peace
for the rest of our lives, and sake of generations to follow us.

Let us honor those who live and die for not going along or giving in to terrorism.
Thank you and so sorry for everything that has happened here!

This is a wonderful post Emily - thanks for posting it!

 

[HappyJoy]

It's funny that it's those that are opposed to diversity and multiculturalism are the ones who commit the violence.

EDIT: Funny in a very non funny way.

 

[emilynghiem]

There are instances in which diversity is destructive. It kills everything. Cultures are so incompatible that they cannot coexist. Islam and western culture is like that. They cannot coexist. There is no point of compromise.

Islam believes in killing gays. The west believes they should be left alone until they harm someone else. Where is the compromise? One side or the other must completely capitulate.

Islam believes that women and men should be separated. This country puts men in women's bathrooms, locker rooms, showers and changing rooms. Where is the compromise?

It's silly really, to expect these two cultures to live in diversity.

YIKES Tipsycatlover
Maybe you prove your point by contradicting it:

1. you just set up the above scenario as win-lose
by scarcity mentality and BELIEF that both sides cannot win, one has to conquer the other

2. you LEFT OUT abundance mentality, win-win,
and conflict resolution so all sides can get what they really want in the end

3. you LEFT out the choice of separating groups, where people who want to live by
restorative justice agree to one system and those who live by retributive justice agree to another.
That is still accommodating DIVERSITY by allowing people to live under the rules of their choosing! In fact, that is the natural law, of karma and justice, if we only enforced it consistently. People who do, invoke greater authority in compelling others to follow the laws, because they are fair and transparent to all sides and don't contradict their own principles.

So yes, you prove what goes wrong by EXCLUDING
a viewpoint, you can cut out the solution and then wonder why nothing is solving the problem.

Maybe the person who could have mediated, and won the sides over, is sitting outside the door
because they were EXCLUDED from the conversation.

Just like the scenario you described above.

 

[emilynghiem]

ce, i

It's funny that it's those that are opposed to diversity and multiculturalism are the ones who commit the violence.

EDIT: Funny in a very non funny way.

Dear HappyJoy maybe just the extreme cases get pushed to extreme violence.
But we have "civilized" ways to assassinate and smash each other in the media and in courts and votes.
It is still abusive bullying, but using "democratic" means that have a chance to check and correct overreaches. The injuries caused to relationships, faith in govt and in each other, and the cost of our energy and resources is still depriving and denying us of benefits we could be investing in and developing instead of supporting more "civil wars" and "domestic abuse" that create greater debts and damages to clean up after.

The day we truly embrace diversity to the point of including each other's beliefs and groups with respect, that's when we'll stop the hypocrisy. I'm sorry, but bashing each other for political affiliation, seeking to use legal and legislative means to SILENCE OPPRESS and deny due process and representation in govt,
how is that peaceful?

 

[emilynghiem]

Isn't what those peaceful muslims are doing in Europe understandable?

Muslims get worried when we get their number. The op ranks up there with check is in the mail and of course I'll still love you.

Dear Tipsycatlover As far as I can see,
anyone who is truly conniving and plotting hides in secret.
And the ones who are public, make it CLEAR what side they are on.

Have you ever met and talked with Muslims in person?
the ones with an agenda or something to hide, red flags go up,
just like how you can tell the mean spirited Christian fundamentalists
from the truly forgiving humble and gentle ones. (But even with those
with a grudge and bias, if you are open about your beliefs and speech, they
will come RIGHT OUT and say what their issues are and won't hide them either.
transparency is mutual, so if they have something to hide they run and hide.)

When I spoke over the phone with a Grand Dragon of the Klan
they couldn't give too much information about where to find them.

But whenever I speak and meet with Mustafaa Carroll of CAIR
he is as transparent as you can be, and I have met with his
wife and son who are an absolutely lovely family. There is nothing
to hide when you are an honest person. It is obvious.

I know many, many muslims. I have known muslims for decades. They lie like rugs. But they do it so well. It's a pleasure to listen to them. When a muslim lies, it's the whole package. They will look you right in the eye, take your hand and grip it for emphasis. They are still lying. As long as you can accept that, they are quite enjoyable.

Thank you Tipsycatlover
I've met people I could trust and others with agenda.
For the ones we can't trust, I would put the people in charge
who can police them. So the price of admission if you want
to join the Muslims is responsibility for policing all other Muslims
who commit to those laws.

Same with Christians who already commit to this.
And Constitutionalists who do, while many only want
to enforce rights for themselves, but not do the work to protection the same for others.

If all groups are held to police their own, and be responsible
for correction, restitution for damages and violations, and enforcement/education,
wouldn't that promote accountability?

Can you imagine if political parties and religious organizations
were all held to pay for the policies and actions of their members?

Love to see that, Tipsycatlover
Bring it on!!!

 

[emilynghiem]

Lock the thread.

Keep the thread open. Let in diversity. We need to talk not cut each other off.

Yep. Interesting how some people instinctively react like that.

"I don't like what you're saying, so I want to make it so you can't."

Sounds pretty familiar, sadly.
.

Thanks Mac1958 and also Grandma
If you look at this closely, it is clear to me that Grandma meant well
and was trying to express support and protection. When people
feel threatened, sure, we can act preemptively and seek to deter at a stronger level.

If we can understand people's defenses are natural, and
we all have an instinct to defend our territory, we don't have to incite each other over this.

Why not respect bounds to begin with, and this won't happen so much.
How is Grandma or Steve supposed to know
WHO is going to respect their consent before they let them in?
Of course we as humans are going to put up protective walls.

It is ironic that this gets so contradictory, but welcome to the human race!

Thanks to all of you for adding to this thread.
We need to have these discussions, flaws and all.
If we are going to learn to manage diversity to its fullest!